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Boeing over promised and under delivered on this one. The Dreamliner is edging into fail territory.
Which were caused by Boeing violating a contract. Really, you need to look at cause-and-effect, rather than being an anti-union parrot.
Why are you in favor of contract violations? Would you be happy if your employer violated a contract against you?
Way to keep current with the news; that happened in 2001.
I worry when you find out what happened in September of that year!
Chester12, why must you hate Unions and think the cause of the 787 delays are because of the Unions - it is not - it was a bad business decision of the Boeing Company Executives which caused a lot of these delays - Recently admitted to by those executives - the outsourcing which caused parts shortages... and on and on and on...... Union members are a small facet at the Boeing Company -
The failure here was systemic. Boeing's labor unions overplayed their hand, failing to understand that the strong arm tactics that applied in a bygone era when your rival was subject to the same rules and regulations don't apply in a global market.
But Boeing management also failed. Instead of being an engineering company with a passion for building great airliners, Boeing transformed itself into a management company with a passion for making (and as a result losing) a lot of money. Blame Phil Condit and Harry Stonecipher. The move of Boeing's HQ from Seattle to Chicago heralded a change for the worse for Boeing - a loss of focus on Boeing's core competancy - building airliners.
If Boeing wants to regain their market leadership, they need to transform themselves back into the company they were. Get rid of the people that run the company by tracking the bottom line. Get rid of the people that think of airliners as mere "products". Hire people with a passion for airliners. Hire people that eat, sleep, and breath airliners. I was one such person. All my life I had wanted to work for Boeing. When I turned 21, I sent my resume and waited and waited. Finally, after 6 months of hoping and praying, I got my call and I got the job I had always wanted. But after 4 years I left Boeing disillusioned. Boeing was nothing but politics, efforts to outsource everything, and lousy pay. I would have loved to have worked for Boeing all my life. Ever since I was 4 that had been my plan. But the Boeing that brought us the 707 and the 747 long ago went away. And what the world has gotten is broken promises, endless delays, and failed execution.
As far as I know, Boeing does not build airliners. They build airplanes. Isn't there a difference? Or did you mean the same thing?
It's not the fault of the unions. If you've never worked for an aerospace company, let me enlighten you. Those companies have to deal with constant FAA audits and AS9100 audits that will literally shut down production for days at a time. I'm not talking about yearly audits. I'm talking almost monthly.
Those type of restrictions and constant nitpicking about things like dust bunnies under stockroom shelves or a can of soda in a mechanic's toolbox, are killing the aviation industry in the United States. The unions aren't responsible for that nonsense.
chester12 You're saying Airbus is kicking Boeing's butt because of Boeing's unions?!! You do know what unions are like in Europe, don't you? Hilarious. Sad, but hilarious.
to Crying Shame, Canned soda anywhere near the metals and electronics in modern aircraft "can" pose a serious risk for corrosion and other types of damage to the materials used today in aircraft. Your "Dust Bunnies" are an indicator of sloppy house keeping which may also portend sloppy assembly practices.
That is complete BS. That is not the reason for any of the delays. I work for Boeing, and I am not IAM but when I see someone spreading BS I will say so.
You're full of it...
Yo, once again for the uneducated posting here.
THIS IS NOT A UNION ISSUE.
The IAM a few months ago renewed the last contract and Boeing will be making the next variant of the 737 in Renton Wa.
I would like all the lying anti-union morons to stop the lying and spreading BS. You are FOS.
Jeff-1592116
Did planes build themselves during the 58 day strike? No one it was the only factor, but it was a factor, the schedule for planes is very tight, and a strike of any amount of time hurts, but 58 days is a long one.
Again, edward, cause and effect. The unions were not striking just for the fun of it-- Boeing violated a contract.
If you were not aware, in the USA contracts are supposed to be sacred documents, and by law unions can strike.
Boeing violated their contract.
When China starts to make planes then we would know the true damage the Boeing outsourcing has done to this country.
Certainly if this problem can't successfully be dealt with quickly and decisively it's going to create an image of being an unsafe airplane. If it were to lead to a catastrophic failure down the road it would be game over for Boeing on the 787. I worry more about what is NOT being said about this issue by Boeing. I'm sure they are trying to downplay the potential serious nature of what could be an airframe integrity problem.
The Airbus A380 has had a quantity more and more severe issues compared to the relatively minor issues that the 787 has had.
Both the 787 and the A380 problem have been fixed in production.
This was a major learning curve for the management at Boeing, that not everyone can build an aircraft! The problems that has plagued the 787 is "Off-load", very few problems were created at actual Boeing facilities, not counting South Carolina, they were bought by Boeing after the problems were noted to try to salvage the millions they have already dumper into that facility. Boeing now realized that it has to use it's highly trained employees that it has relied on for years to salvage this program, the same people that made a success of the 777, (1000 so far), the 737, (over 7000 so far), the 747 and 767. And these employees also realize that there, there family and also American manufacturing's future depends on there success of this and future projects at Boeing. this commitment by both Boeing Management and it's employees was shown by the unprecedented moves taken by both of them to forge a working relationship that will make Boeing be here tomorrow and in the future. Failure on this project is a possibility and it has happened before, (the SST in the 70's), but not without a fight by both! Boeing is only as strong as the people that make it's products, both management and worker, WE WILL SURVIVE!!!!!!
Exactly. Building planes requires top notch design and assembly talent, neither of which are easy to outsource. At this point I doubt the plane will be considered a failure. Unless it suffers the same fate as the old Comet. The SST was never completed and was being funded by the government before the funding was cut.
This is an OLD glitch that was first announced months ago.
Composites! I know, high tech and lightweight..being a pilot myself (pilots don't let pilots fly plastic airplanes). While there are a few GA aircraft made from composites, How many of them have over 30 yrs or more of flying day in and day out (that would be zero!). Aluminum has got us this far and should continue (at least in superstructure area's)....DC-3's are still flying from over 70 yrs ago! Wait till a main spar or rib or ? gets made out of composites and hits severe turbulence.I know they are tested to mega G forces but what about their strength after 30 yrs of use? Absolutely no way to test THAT!
Do some research. CFRP was used in the horizontal and vertical stabilizer of the 777. No issues.
Any new airplane must undergo fatigue testing. The 777 vertical and horizontal was successful in it's fatigue test and the 787 is currently undergoing it's fatigue testing to prove it's not a concern.
true but like I said, NONE have 30 yrs of proven history...they can "fatigue test" all they want in a lab...IMHO as one who bounces around in the turbulence....It is different!
you're basing all of your aeronautical experience on being jostled around a few times in an airplane? really?
think i'll go with the engineers on this one, you go put a bandaid on your sore butt....
Reminds me of the composite Beech Starship... a beautiful, fantastic plane, but a financial black hole that nearly destroyed Beechcraft.
Hey Mark,
Why don't we all come back here in 30 years and we'll find out then, OK? Because, come to think of it, I'm pretty sure there was somebody like you 30 years ago who also posed the same concerns about aluminum as compared to steel.
So if I were you, lighten up and just ride the dream ...
There probably was somebody who brought up concerns with Alum ..lets see..maybe 70 yrs ago...and I realize it may sound too old school....just sayin I know more pilots that still favor the tried and true method vs carbon fiber..as of today..I doubt we will have to wait for 30 yrs for everything to change in that direction...lighter is no doubt better...not arguing with that...It's akin to the Airbus being entirely controlled by computers...Sully even admitted that he would likely have been able to fly a Boeing back to the airport and not put it in the Hudson...Safe Travels!
If the current configuration is for 210 to 250 passengers I bet American Airlines can get 320 packed in at least.
We might be in for an unwelcome surprise with the use of graphitic fiber composites. Early studies done for NASA showed that when burned, these liberate tiny, sub-micron, respirable needles of carbon into the air, leading to very interesting damages to people and electrical and communications systems.
Do not be surprised when it comes out - we've known about it since 1979.
That carbon fiber damaging electronics argument was a red herring that was killed 20 years ago. In composite precursor fiber + polymer layers the material is cured into a final rigid structure. The early tests were at the plans making the precuror material using hundreds or rolls of graphite fiber, and even those plants did not have electrical shorts. Composites have been flying on our commercial and military aircraft for at least 35 years and have performed just fine. Composite sheets also save 30% of the weight compared to aluminum for structures and that is why the 787 will use 30% less fuel to fly. And at 100$/barrel fuel costs are the greatest costs to the airlines.
Churchill once said, "Americans will always do the right thing, but only after they try everything else." Corporate America is no different. Boeing is too big to fail. This shows how inept large organizations are at innovating.
Incompetent management and a union labor pool that seems intent on sabotage?
How about incompetent management and a non union, non professional, under trained, under experienced labor pool?
How does anyone know union workers sabotaged anything. Boeing has contracts with a bunch of small companies to manufacture items for the plane. Did one of them screw up, thus the convenient scrape goat, the union did it.
Aero Engineer - true but like I said, NONE have 30 yrs of proven history...they can "fatigue test" all they want in a lab...IMHO as one who bounces around in the turbulence....It is different!
Airbus sucks. Boeing rocks!
Unions gave us the weekend. Management gave us the rest! Oh, and they pay good overtime too! What more can you ask, unions?
And I couldn't agree with this post more...Boeing does Rock! I used to work at Boeing Field when they were flight testing the 747's for like 200,000 over gross weight (I think for JAL )...They loaded those phosphate green (primer) birds with everything they could...we watched em go over the hump in middle and virtually disappear at other end and...............FINALLy the nose popped up and it took off..Was an amazing thing to see...My nephew works there now...
Before people make comments, they should check out how much of the work on the plane was outsourced to other companies and other countries. Don't blame everything on unions, it also has been caused by management decisions. Look up the Seattle Times articles on the 787 delays. Inform yourself before you make comments.
DMK, two words: Management Prerogative
Just what I was thinking. Boeing has had previous issues with subcontracted parts before slowing the development.
Hey Tomster - very professional ...jumping to conclusions without any basis...No actually, I was a crew chief on everything from F-4's to F-15's and have a family member who is an aeronautical engineer with 25 yrs experience at Martin Marietta...bandaid on a sore butt? Facts are....aircraft are exposed to stresses all the time which are way above the normal (due to Vmo or maneuvering speed, being exceeded all the time in turbulence.. because you can't see it until it is too late)...Get back to me when carbon fiber has been proven over a period the likes of 727's, 747's etc AND carbon fiber has NOT been used for 35 yrs as a spar or main structural element in commercial aviation...period.
Hey Mark,
Even if you were right, so what if composites last for a shorter time than aluminum? Shouldn't you be more concerned about the stress on the engine? I'm sure today's engines are way, way more advanced and efficient than those of 30 years ago ..
Very True! no dispute there...
Jet Engines? Jet Engines? We don't need no STINKING JET ENGINES!!
Reciprocating Aircraft ENGINE Mechanic. AFSC 43251 USAF 1962-66.
HC-54(R-2000-99W),HC-97(R-4360-59B),HH-19B(R-1300-3),and EC-121(R-3350-PRT).
Shake Rattle and Roll sure beats Suck Squeeze Bang Blow!!
Yea....fill the oil and check the gas! LMAO
You guys realize that the 787 is flying currently with good reviews. Past is past. Snafus are always going to happen. And unions suck 90% of the time in the 21 st century
If this new 787-9 reduces fuel consumption by 20% and is 30% more efficient to operate then the air line industry cannot justify more than a 30% increase in fares.
The main issue w/ composites is the failure mode. Aluminum fails in a ductile manner whereas carbon fiber composite material fails in a brittle mode. This will be a difficult issue but both Airbus and Boeing will have to deal with it as the entire industry is going towards composites. In any event, I will stick to flying on aluminum aircraft until the new technology is proven.
Lots of new technology in both the new Airbus and Boeing planes.
Plane designs last 50 years or more so the few years they have to work the kinks out.
To point fingers, or cast blame, or make this political is just silly.
Funny someone hasn't blamed Obama for this. He gets the blame for everything else, hell why not keep piling it on?
Damn right! If John McCain had been President instead of Obama, Boeing would have never had any problems, cause we'd all be living in a business-friendly economy bursting with jobs and prosperity for all by now (except for all those damn lazy, pinko, atheist, freak-lovin', traitorous liberal welfare kings & queens).
Composites have been used in aircraft for over 50 years now, as with most new aircraft technology it was limited to military applications. Not until the failed Beech Starship was a commercial aircraft built using so much composites in it's structure, it's failure was not due to it composite structure but its futuristic design, it was either loved or hated.
Advanced military aircraft design has depended on composite structures. From the AV-8 to Stealth, composites have been used extensively, and if the American public knew just how long and how many hours some of these planes have dependably logged they would not have any concerns. And with Boeing at the forefront of this technology it has all the information and manufacturing knowledge at it's disposal, but this knowledge is limited to who it can be shared with, and cannot be shared with non-American companies. They regretfully had to reinvent the wheel. This is why Boeing is currently on one of it's hiring sprees, it now understands that to be successfully it must manufacture in it's traditional sites using the "Tribal knowledge" of it employees.
No Boeing airplane is built only by Boeing workers, they all have parts that are made by others.