This is not a deflationary crash. The only way it could be is if it were absolutely determined that there would be no more money printing. That is NOT the case.

The problem is that there is more debt than can ever be repaid. Whenever this happens throughout history, the currency system becomes threatened.

We may experience some short term deflation, but it will soon give way to more money printing (or its electronic equivalent) and more and more and more until the currency eventually becomes worthless as prices for everything rise in dollar terms. That's what QE3 is all about and eventually QE4, 5 and so forth...

Every paper currency in the history of the world returns to its intrinsic value: Zero.

This will include the US dollar too.

"There is no means of avoiding a final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as a result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved." Austrian economist Ludwig von Mises (1881-1973)

goodguy -- Too early to say that yet. Indicators do point in that direction. The thing to watch, in my opinion, is how the dollar compares to other trading countries. Safe havens don't matter that much. If gold starts to fall then entire system is going down. Players are going to need liquidity and they hold gold for instant cash. Not even the big players pockets go that deep. If gold begins to fall - US securities and dollars could become attractive and make S&P look really foolish.

Difficult to believe the Fed will try a QE3 since they have not unwound QE1&2. More easing really hangs the US banking sytem out there - pretty risky. Especially based on downgraded securities. The entire banking system risks a downgrade.

I love how everyone invests in gold when things go bad. Let me ask you something. If things really fall apart and a world wide economic depression hits, what good is all of that gold going to buy you? And second, how are you actually going to get all of that gold that you "purchased" on the stock market.

Good luck suckers.

The European Central Bank also said it will "actively implement" a bond-purchase program that could boost Spanish and Italian bonds and drive down interest yields that threaten those countries with financial disaster.

MSNBC article next week: Yes siree bobtail....Mr. Bernanke is not going to let THIS CRISIS go to waste. Time for QE3, or is that QE4, by printing more money out of thin air to sell more bonds to those pesky EU banks.

MSNBC article follow up next week: Wait, I wonder what Mr. Geithner has in store for providing funding to the IMF for more World redistribution ?

Don't need to go get it. It's just a spade full of dirt away. If currencies fail or fall then my gold will buy whatever dollars I need at the moment, and I'll get a lot more dollars for my gold than you will for your savings withdrawal.

only now, as the united states is in its economic death throws,can most people see the big picture.corporations and rich individuals had an agenda and that was to destroy the middle class.they knew the middle class was a creation of protectionist legislation and the industrial age.a few well placed bribes to sympathetic represenatives sealed our fate.poof! free trade/job exporting was born.free trade has NEVER worked for the developed countries populations.but works great for that countries rich and the less developed country

tariffs mean jobs for americans

free trade/job exporting means jobs for china and bye bye made in america

Basically for a while now the "democracies" of the world have been picking their politicians like children would pick parents (if they could do such a thing).

They pick the ones that will spoil them rotten.

And now their lack of understanding or self discipline doom them to some painful lessons.

That the founding members of America had studied history and found Democracies and large central governments were a recipe for dysfunction so instead they built a Republic.

Now here we are with a Democracy and a large central government. And hordes of people with little understanding or care of history wondering where it went wrong and somebody must be to blame and somebody else has to fix it.

Go read some books on history of political systems and economics. And realize that economic policies aside, our system of voters who fill positions to legislate our personal philosophies and financial interests is the greater enemy.

In a way Obama administration did do something, they inadvertently caused oil prices to go down! Bet we don't see it at the pump though?

If gold begins to fall...??? That's a good one, ha, ha, ha!!! Gold is now up over $50/ounce since the Asian markets opened this morning, the Swiss Franc is over $1.31 too!!!

Relax people, this wont last for long. Initial panic, that is all

Sell Mortimer, sell sell sell!!!! Turn those machines back on!!!

Old Timer, since you made the claim, I just had to go check. Monex pegs gold's rise at $18/oz, not $50. Still, up is up. I keep mine in the mattress, along with the silver. Best bet I ever made.

Gold will crash too....I would sell it soon. It is all a lie people! The majority of you dont even have this gold in your physical possession haha. Oh god have mercy on our souls, this aint gonna be perty

Whoops, I take it back.... gold is up over $45 on the world spot price. Sorry, Kornfed, it's not heading down any time soon. Maybe later, much much later. And I do have possession... anything else would kinda miss the point.

What will matter in the case of a financial collapse will be non perishable foods, basic daily necessities and the means to protect yourself and family. Gold and silver while nice to have is not edible and makes for harsh toilet paper.

I have a nice pair of tin snips to chip up those ounces. Throughout human history, people have traded goods for gold in its every form. I'm not the least bit worried about the value of gold. And water is way better than toilet paper...or I can use dollars.

Such chortling on the part of the "Americans" posting this morning ... are you wishing for the demise of our great nation? Instead of chortling so at the prospects, why don't you offer some realistic solutions to the debt problem? I'd bet you've been voting, if you voted at all, for the parties responsible for where we are today. And that wouldn't be Obama. He hasn't been here long enough yet to have done the damage we've had from 40 years of Corporatocracy directed politics. Read a history of the Robber Baron era in America to get some idea of what has really been going on for the last several electoral cycles.

Littleoldlady?

Are you confused? If you are giving Obama credit for everything that goes well would it not be the same when it goes to crap?

To answer your questions: YES I vote.

No I do not wish America to fail as you put it. As a matter of fact I am a veteran.

Toooo late. Elvis has done left the building. Wait, this is more like Bachman Turner Overdrives song, "you ain't seen nothin yet"! Better hold on to your shorts, the ride is going to get a lot more bumpy before the road smooths out.

Whoops, I take it back.... gold is up over $45 on the world spot price. Sorry, Kornfed, it's not heading down any time soon. Maybe later, much much later. And I do have possession... anything else would kinda miss the point.

I did not say it will crash today. The panicers will rush to gold in the short term. I would sell when the panic subsides.

Ah yes a new meltdown that the newly elected tea/Republicans wanted since winning the midterms, all for the possibility of blaming this on Obama to win more seats out of fear. Thank you guys for running this to the ground for us so that you can be held on pedestals to get us out of the mess you purposely created.

Please for the love of God people use some common sense next election and try to remember that the midterms are just as important.

Is your hate for one man (Obama) or one party (Democrat) stronger than your love for this country or it's people that you would allow the Republican party to hijack us and melt our system again all for the sake of political gain and power.

some well thought out post this morn from some people that seem to know what they are talking about.....then we get ROCKYROADS input.... your like a small child at the grown-ups table...get a drink of water and go back to bed

In order to solve this problem, we are going to have to change our mindset. Frankly, this deficit spending is the most selfish, evil thing I have ever witnessed. It is an evil that must be destroyed or otherwise it will destroy us.

Follow my logic on this:

* Borrowing money to pay our bills today and expecting someone else (probably someone who has not even been born) to pay the bill is just stealing. It is generational theft, and truthfully, I do not think people who have not even been born should have to pay my bills or your bills. What kind of uncaring person would think that is a good idea. Therefore, deficit spending is very selfish and immoral. It's stealing and it has to stop.

* Similarly, socialism is immoral at its core because it seeks to steal from one group (e.g. progressive taxes at the point of a gun) in order to give to another group (e.g. earned income tax credit) through government intervention. Although the intent may (or may not) be sincere and appear to be helpful to those in need, the method is still simply legalized stealing. Therefore, it is wrong; it is immoral. Take note that in the Holy Bible, there is no such thing as a progressive tithe. God expects everyone (rich and poor alike) to give one tenth. If that system is good enough for God, then it's good enough for me. Therefore, the concept of trying to stick it to people who make more than your or I do must stop. It is wrong; it is immoral; it is stealing; it must stop.

* Legalized stealing leads to corruption. Humans are by their very nature selfish and corrupt. Therefore, you should never invent a system whereby a government is given authority to take from one group to give to another. It is no more acceptable to steal from a wealthy person than it is from a poor person. Wrong is wrong. If you do not recognize that principle, then there is something dreadfully wrong inside of you; you are missing your moral compass.

* Charity belongs exclusively to the private sector. Charitable giving is not the proper function of government. I am not against charity. I believe in charity, I think you should be compassionate, and I give plenty to those who are less fortunate. However, it is simply wrong to forcibly take money from one person and give it to another. It should be my right to decide to whom I give financial help, money, gifts, etc. I do not trust government to do that for me. I would not trust anyone to make those decisions, except Jesus, and if you will recall, Jesus never forced anyone to do anything.

* You must never consume more than you produce. That's immoral unless you are disabled. Therefore, if you are able bodied, you must work if you want to eat. The harder you work, the better you eat. If you are lazy, then why should I be required to give up what I worked hard to earn to give it to someone who did nothing to earn it? A system such as this will make both of us want to quit working. What is the incentive for either to work? Eventually, this system will collapse as have all communist nations that have ever existed (e.g. USSR).

I do not expect someone else to pay my bills. To do so is immoral. I do not expect someone to get up in the morning, go to work, and work hard all day in order TO MY BILLS. That is ridiculous. I work hard everyday to provide for my family, to pay my bills and to better my life. You should do the same. Therefore, the earned income tax credit must go.

If the law takes money from me (at the point of a gun) to give my money to someone else (whether they need it or not - and by the way who gets to decide what you and I need), then that is simply a form of stealing and more bluntly is a form of slavery. Correction, it is not a form of slavery; it is slavery. Why should I be required to go to work to pay your bills? That is immoral; that is wrong.

Therefore, we need for the government to get its hand out of our pockets, our kids pockets, our future grandkids and great grandkids pockets. Politicians must stop stealing our money and buying votes with it. If this does not stop, this country will not survive.

That is the bottom line.

Rockyroad - maybe we need a new category on the complaint list....."Totally Disconnected from Reality".......... I bet it would become the new favorite. Little old Lady needs collapsed......."want America to fail"......where would she come up with something as inane as that???????

None of this is unexpected, now maybe Washington will get up and start taking care of the problem. If average Americans are able to accomplish this, (put on their big girl panties and fix their debt problems) Washington can too. They should have started the process 2 years ago instead of feeding the fire with the Stimulus and Obamacare.

Honestly if wall street didn't have so much power over everything else I wouldn't care. Stock have been in a long bubble from all sorts of tricks. I think wall street has suffered from over inflated stocks for decades.

What pisses me off the most is that the people who downgraded the US's credit rating at S&P say the lack of revenue increases was part of the problem.

The GOP has official tried to create a global recession for a political agenda.

It's not a deflationary bubble, it's because their core ,rock bottom, must not fail investments were in US Treasury bonds and the Republcian in Congress have totally lost the trust of the world.

You people up their who so disengenuously blame Obama should be ashamed. The nation would be better off without you.

> 545 vs. 300,000,000 People ( This is just a part of the article)
> -By Charlie Reese
>
> Politicians are the only people in the world who create problems and then campaign against them.
>
> Have you ever wondered, if both the Democrats and the Republicans are against deficits, WHY do we have deficits?
>
> Have you ever wondered, if all the politicians are against inflation and high taxes, WHY do we have inflation and high taxes?
>
> You and I don't propose a federal budget. The President does.
> You and I don't have the Constitutional authority to vote on appropriations. The House of Representatives does.
> You and I don't write the tax code, Congress does.
> You and I don't set fiscal policy, Congress does.
> You and I don't control monetary policy, the Federal Reserve Bank does.
>
> One hundred senators, 435 congressmen, one President, and nine Supreme Court justices equates to 545 human beings out of the 300 million are directly, legally, morally, and individually responsible for the domestic problems that plague this country.
>
> I excluded the members of the Federal Reserve Board because that problem was created by the Congress. In 1913, Congress delegated its Constitutional duty to provide a sound currency to a federally chartered, but private, central bank.
>
> I excluded all the special interests and lobbyists for a sound reason. They have no legal authority. They have no ability to coerce a senator, a congressman, or a President to do one cotton-picking thing. I don't care if they offer a politician $1 million dollars in cash. The politician has the power to accept or reject it. No matter what the lobbyist promises, it is the legislator's responsibility to determine how he votes.
>
> Those 545 human beings spend much of their energy convincing you that what they did is not their fault. They cooperate in this common con regardless of party.
>
> The Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land, gives sole responsibility to the House of Representatives for originating and approving appropriations and taxes. Who is the speaker of the House? John Boehner. He is the leader of the majority party. He and fellow House members, not the President, can approve any budget they want. If the President vetoes it, they can pass it over his veto if they agree to.
>
> It seems inconceivable to me that a nation of 300 million cannot replace 545 people who stand convicted -- by present facts -- of incompetence and irresponsibility.

I always wondered about the story snuffed out about U.S. gold was rejected by China for payment in 09 as it made lots of suspitions to whats going on with activities in the u.s. federal reserve. With counterfiting rampid and delays making the new $100 bills with disclosures consistantly refused. Who knows whats going on anymore! many psychologist agree that the first step to solving a problem is admiting it. HELLO!

KD is right. Borrowing money is the cause of our govt's fiscal problems, not the solution.

The article reads that oil is above $1700 an ounce. Jeez that would cause some real problems now wouldn't it. A little proof reading never hurt any journalist.

It's very simple folks - The reason we have a loss in our ratings is quite plain. $14.3 Trillion in debt and rising. S&P listed many reasons, but when you boil them all down, we as a nation have a huge burden on our economy that is near the brink of collapse.

The government has never taken any surplus and paid down on its debt except in the case of money owed for WWII. That was a different time when debt was viewed in a much different light.

The debt ceiling episode was but a wake up call... If a band of 60 united people in congress who never participated in the debates could create such havoc, imagine what another disaster could do to us as a nation.

Our elected officials should all be horsewhipped. From the top on down... after the whipping, they should all be sent into their chambers to write 1000 times, "I will not abuse the people's money ever again!"

Bitchin' about the credit downgrade is like bitchin' that you didn't get an A+ on your report card! The Tea Party and the GOP do not want the Obama Administration to get any A's (let alone AAA's) so they will do anything (even nothing) to make sure things get much worse. Snag is, Obama will get a second term and all the Tea Party will have done is spite every ordinary hardworking American. Way to go Bachmann and Boehner. You have re-invented treason.

Anyone believing that tax increases will solve this problem can go ahead and voluntarily pay more taxes but you're only going to find out that it won't help. This problem was brought on by the Demoncrats refusal to Cut, Cap and Balance a budget. The government doesn't have a revenue problem they have a spending problem. Until the Demoncrats realize spending HAS to be slashed you will only see matters get worse. If Dirty Harry would have passed Cut, Cap and Balance instead of tabling it our nations creadit rating would still be AAA. The credit agencies were saying all along that a balanced budget and a plan to pay down the debt was what was needed. Instead Odumbo got his way and they increased the debt ceiling. And to make it worse now the lamestream media is claiming it to be a Tea Party victory when it is anything but that. The Tea Party was the biggest loser in this whole dog & pony show. The only reason the false prophet media is making this claim is so Odumbo can later say he tried it our way and it didn't work so now we have to raise taxes. The biggest problem with raising taxes is the fact that it will generate less government revenue because it will kill jobs and send money overseas to avoid paying the higher taxes. But the Demoncrats will continue to keep spending more in their intentional effort to destroy the economy.

THE ROAD TO RECOVERY WILL BE VERY LONG AND VERY DIFFICULT!

As many of us have been saying, this economic collapse has been inevitable for decades. Many of you can sit here and nit-pick your favorite villain(s) but facts are facts. This has been a social engineering experiment on the back of the taxpayer's, and has failed. The evidence is not just here, it's global. The longer and more established experiment in the European Union is front and center and many here continue to believe it can somehow work in an economy our size and populace. Britain's riots are not a result of some questionable shooting, it's because of austerity and the effect it has on those too dependent to care for themselves.

The EU is finally realizing that the nanny-state, has never and, can never succeed. The smaller economies of Greece, Portugal and Ireland have led the way. Now, more ominously we have Spain, Italy and Great Britain teetering. Germany and France along with the IMF (the USA) will need to step up and hope their economies are strong enough to support all of this. The results will be interesting.

Our collapse has been developing over a much longer time. Since Progressivism became an ideology and then politicized we have seen the results and they aren't good. Yes, many will praise the entitlements and social programs and massive government as some sort of safety net, but at what cost? We're seeing the cost exposed today. Massive debt, unfunded liabilities and more importantly, loss of confidence domestically and internationally are driving our economy. These are not the indicators you want in a strong economic model.

Our vaunted social safety nets consume 57% of our budget (Medicare/Medicaid-23%, Welfare-13%, Pensions-21%). The rest is military at 25% and other discretionary spending at 18%. This is no longer sustainable with our current economic model. Our economy has become a series of bubbles and bursts. This is purely a result of our clandestine Federal Reserve controlling monetary policy and a totally incompetent Congress controlling fiscal policy. The combination of these two has become uncontrollable simply for political rather than economic reasons.

Our manufacturing sector, which created the middle class, is vanishing and being replaced by an unproven consumption/service sector. The country that invented everything from manned flight, the telephone, Hula-Hoops and virtually everything esle that pulled the world from the horse-and-buggy era is inventing ways to return it to those days. Economically, not figuratively. This is being led by the same people we honor with our vote. The blame is widespread. The result is our first ever downgrade and threats with more to come. The reaction we've been seeing is because of policy but more importantly confidence.

The time has come for our president to step up and accept this as his economy as he claimed it was in July of 2009. In July, Debbie Wasserman-Scultz said Democrats are ready to take responsibility for the state of the economy. Today they blame everyone but the White House janitor. This is the typical flip-flop this administration has been built on. When massive Bills thousands of pages long nationalize our Health Care system and Financial industry it's historic. When the economy collapses under the weight of all these unsustainable feel-good policies, it's the TEA Party or GOP's fault. Once again, the Liberal Progressives cowardice is exposed. They will only accept success, which has yet to be shown, but refuse to be accountable, responsible and transparent.

This economic period will be a teaching tool in history. Unfortunately for all the reasons we see it will teach us how horribly wrong Progressivism is.

No, the treason comes from Odumbo and his lemmings. The Tea Party Republicans passed legislation that would have kept us at a AAA rating but Dirty Harry tabled that legislation in the Senate.

ORB - you hit it right on the head... those d@mn republicans... it's all their fault. The democrats are completely innocent in this. Right? This has nothing to do with the fact that over the past 2 1/2 years, the government went on a $3.2 trillion dollar spending spree. It has nothing to do with a failed $877 billion stimulus and a failed $400 billion omnibus bill... neither of them had an impact on the economy except to put us deeper in debt.

Maybe some of you people should decide to get out of bed, drink some coffee and take an OBJECTIVE look around. Stop playing your political games saying one side is better than the other. There's enough blame to go around on all sides.

95 House democrats voted against raising the debt ceiling as opposed to just 66 House Republicans. Looks like it was the democrats who didn't want barry to get his debt bill passed.

LOL....Republicans love power more than they love this country......LOLOLOL Republicans ruin credit rating to win next election, always about the next election......LOL Republicans purposely dragged the debt debate out to the point of creating this fiasco, all to try to make Obama look bad so their bible thumping uneducated power hungry and insane candidates have a shot at overthrowing the govt.....the way I see it, that is treason, and they should be punished as traitors.

Markmich regarding post 1.41

If all you say is true how do the Scandinavian Countries and Canada survive? And survive well I might add. Maybe staying out of wars and closing their borders have just something to do with it?

A representative of Standard and Poor's stated on CNBC this morning that the number one thing that the US needs to do is to let the Bush tax cuts expire. They see these tax cuts as the main reason for the deficit being as large as it is. He said the spending cuts should have happened back in 2001, when these tax cuts were passed.

Bachman does not believe anything bad would happen if the U S defaulted .. the Tea Party thinks default is a good thing .. so why are the stock markets implodeing and why is middle class americas 401Ks loseing money .. after all didnt the GOP/TP say everything will be fine .. we just nmeed to eliminate Social Security.. Medicare ..EPA .. education etc

rico-3714896

None of those countries have the population of California. None of those countries have the GDP of California. Associating them is similar to comparing Mayberry RFD to New York City. That's what I mean, the ridiculous notion that you can have a socialist state with the size of our nation is ridiculous. Name one nation comparable to ours that has survived and thrived in that type of socio/economic model. There are none. They all deteriorate into Communism.

This is why our Founders and Framers created a Republic. They knew it is easier to have the people control the State governments rather than the Federal monstrosity we have created. Remember We The People are supposed to be the "boss" in a Republic, not the Federal government. We have allowed, for decades, that our government over-step its Constitutionally mandated responsibilities. This is the reason we are here today.

I agree the wars are a burden. The simple solution is to get out. The problem is, as much as the Democrats claim they are anti-war and military, they keep supporting it. They may SAY they don't, but here we are. I don't agree with severely downsizing our Constitutionally mandated responsibility of maintaining a strong standing army, but I do agree with decreasing its scope.

We must protect our borders. This is non-negotiable.

Hey the stock market may be down, but I expect an increase in stockbroker suicides. At least something is going up.

Blame, blame, blame - Everyone's looking to blame someone else. Look people, the side you represent is to blame first. There are 2 sides in this argument. Before you go and point the finger at the other guys, look at your own side FIRST! What has your side done to hurt the economy. If you can honestly say nothing, then you are lying to yourself. The only way to fix this problem is to start in your own house. Since your side isn't pure, fix what's wrong in your own domain before you go and say the other guys are all wrong. Stop beating your chest... the S&P didn't only say the republicans were at fault. They had a whole laundry list of items that influenced their decisions. Stop parsing the report to blame the other guys. Look at the report and find out what your side did wrong to cause the drop in rating.

independent jim... stop stating your opinion as fact. The tea party had no influence in the final vote. It passed without the tea party so quit making up things about them.

crisp-2520004
95 House democrats voted against raising the debt ceiling as opposed to just 66 House Republicans. Looks like it was the democrats who didn't want barry to get his debt bill passed

.

Democrats voted against the debt ceiling because the plan did not go far enough and Republican Teabaggers wouldn't raise any revenues.

Than you for pointing out the level of incompetence in the Republican Party.

The affects of a defaulted would be what you see todays in the stock market, the only difference is on August 3, 2011 we would have not allowed Obama to fill his credit card with $2.5 trillion. Now I want to see how Obama is going to blame the downgrade on Bush. Obama and Geithner tried to get out of the downgrade by saying S&P made a math error, Geithner said I bet they’re using turbo tax that’s why they’re off $2 trillion.

Well, maybe this is the warning that will wake up the idiots in Washington, none of them are exempt, none! The time is now to quit blaming each other, and refusing to listen to the good ideas, from both sides. Growup idiots in DC, do something for our country or get the hell out. We need to do everything we can to stop the bleeding and dress the wounds, so we can start to heal. Blame and blame =zero.

The S&P move also angered Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner. In an interview on NBC and CNBC, Geithner said the rating agency "has shown really terrible judgment" and claimed its downgrade wouldn't affect investors' faith in U.S. debt.

Geithner is an idioit if he believes his own bullsh!t. He's obviously the only one who does. The S&P is right.

And this is just a market correction triggered because our lame congress refuses to get their house in order. If they won't quit spending money they don't have, others will quit loaning it to them.

NO, michelle-1073610 maybe this is the warning that will wake up the idiots who voted in the idiots in Washington.

BREAKING NEWS!

Standard and Poor's has just downgraded Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

Heads need to start rolling in this administration. Our economy is being irreversibly damaged.

We are now in the early stages of a inflationary-depression; we are so loaded with debt, that it can never be repaid with current dollars, within 2 years the dollar will be trading at half of it's present value; those flocking to Gold are trying to hedge against the coming hyper-inflation; the Federal reserve will convince Congress to outlaw individual possession of gold bullion and coins, just as they did in 1935; federal reserve notes can not compete with metals, so do away with the use of metals.Do not think this is a accident, this has been in the planning stages since Nixon went to special drawing rights for Gold exchanges between National Banks; it was suppose to be a gradual process, it got out of hand with crazy tax laws, two wars, derivatives, hedge funds and most of all repeal of Glass-Stegal act, which led to a world wide gambling spree never dreamed of in History , the Piper will be paid!

Nothing will happen, Bachman told us soo.

Finally, change you can believe in. Here's Obama's legacy and it isn't pretty. This guy is focused like a laser on destroying this country and everything it believes in. I hope you liberal progressives are enjoying the ride as you asked for it!!

Ah the effects of the Tea Party downgrade in process!

Way to go Republicans, we've been following your policies, tax cuts now spending cut and the economy is tanking. The only thing that did work was the stimulus it kept the gdp growing.

Boehner should have taken the 4 trillion dollar deal and we could have averted this entire thing.

thanks a lot tea baggers!

Well, Obama did say he would fundamentally change the nation.

Looks like he's getting his way.

Let'e see, 14 million out of work, more to be laid off, continued tax cuts for the wealthy "job creators", who aren't creating any real jobs, no loopholes closed, and idiots thinking that its all those "lazy" welfare folk that are the problem. If there are more people out of work needing to use social programs to stay off the streets, and possibly a large quantity that need medical assistance, since, you know, unemployed people don't stop getting cancer, their diabetes doesn't go away, nor do things like lupus, scleroderma, rheumatoid arthritis, and neither do things like heart attacks care that they are unemployed, and realize that even if those people who are sucking money out of our system, by being lazy, even wanted to suddenly have a change of heart, THERE ARE NO JOBS FOR THEM OR ANYONE ELSE!

We need revenue. Whether that be job generating, which, hello, isn't happening, or ending cuts, loopholes, and subsidies to high profit companies, something needs to be done to fix our country, and now, the world economy because of our country's problems. This is not a class war anymore, this is a war against becoming a third world country, now. Ending and cutting social programs, which, if stocks keep falling the way they are, will be needed by more people who ARE going to lose their jobs.

StephAce

no loopholes closed

Ah yes. The typical Liberal Progressive solution.

OK, I'll bite. I've been asking this for months. Here's your and all your Liberal Progressives chance to shine. Here's my post.

OK. ALL YOU LIBERAL PROGRESSIVES WHO WANT TO RAISE TAXES.

I keep posting this but none of you Liberal Progressives have helped me. You want tax increases, loopholes closed and any other way of getting at those mean, nasty, greedy rich people. Here's your chance

So, let's try again.

I have in front of me the U.S. Tax Code, all 71,684 pages.

Now, just which pages do you want me to start ripping out, or which codes do you want me to change?

I also have the 1,120 tax forms here. Let me know which one of these you want me to throw away or change.

I'm looking at Form 673 which is a statement for Claiming Exemption from Withholding on Foreign Earned Income Eligible for the Exclusion(s) Provided by Section 911. Shall we start here?

Or maybe Form 1122 which is authorization and Consent of Subsidiary Corporation to be Included in a Consolidated Income Tax Return?

While you're deciding on all of this I'm going to go over the Fair Tax paperwork I have to do.

OH, LOOK, there is no paperwork!

OK, lemme know where you want me to start.

Or you can go to my web site at www.FairTax.org

StephAce, I'm sure I'll get the same response from you that others have given me,,,,

(crickets)

Why?

Because you have no clue, nor do the Democrats about what to do.

This is your shame.

@markmich

Make sure schedule "M" isn't included next year, and that the credit is not reauthorized. That extra $800 was a nice surprise, but I can survive without it.

OK mark ill bite.you can start by setting fire to the whole tax code.lets go back to when American was at its best.the millionaires paid 70 percent.list all your expenses and everything else is taxable income.no depreciation's no tax credits for investment etc.any imported goods are taxed at 30 percent.that should be high enough to make hiring an American again economically feasible.as for the rest of american we dont pay anything anyway so addressing us isnt important

Dave-2550157

That extra $800 was a nice surprise, but I can survive without it.

GOOD! If you can survive without it send it back to the government or give all of it to charity.

I did.

whats the matter mark don't like my plan.2 forms a short form and a long form for itemization's.a one page tax code

Whoever equates taxes with stealing from one group to give to another is an evil, horrible person who does not understand even the simplest tenants of social responsibility. I tell you to get off our roads and bridges, don't call our police and go fight your own wars, go clean up our water and air, help those in times of disaster, adminster to our verterans, deliver our mail, put out our fires, stop using our energy generated from our oil and rivers and uranium, protect our ports, educate our children and adults or just STFU.

Peter...where is the social responsibility in the fact that half of the people pay no income tax???

johnQcitizen

lets go back to when American was at its best.the millionaires paid 70 percent.

Why John?

Where in the Constitution is this magical "normal" for tax rates? I've read it dozens of times, I can't seem to find it anywhere.

Is it in the same place where it says we should intrude into every aspect of peoples lives? Where we should tax, regulate and subsidize EVERYTHING? Where we should create massive unsustainable feel-good entitlements and social programs and then selectively choose who we should burden paying for it all?

I'll wait for your reply. Tell me where in the Constitution I can find all this.

johnQcitizen

whats the matter mark don't like my plan.2 forms a short form and a long form for itemization's.a one page tax code

Nope. I prefer my NO PAGE NO ITEMIZATION plan.

Do you honestly believe the politicians and lobbyists will just leave the tax code and a few itemizations alone?

Remember, when the Great Depression started the tax code was 400 pages.

It sure seems to me that most posters have become proxies for competing ideals. Neither side is willing to accept the merit of the other.

When was the tax rate for millionaires at 70%?

Gee markmich, skip most of post much? You were so focused on tax loopholes, and your own want for a pity party to do a job which you chose to do, you completely skipped over the point of my post. Quite frankly, its not my job to tell you where to start closing loopholes, because I am not an attorney, nor am I a CPA, however, the government does employ these people, and THEY can go through the forms, sections, and subsections, and start suggesting where to start. That is what we, the people, have paid for.

You would rather rant and rave about how us "Liberal Progressives" want to raise taxes, and how hard it is on you. "Boo hoo, my job is SO hard and you want to make it harder on me! You should do it!" is what your post basically translates to. If you don't like your job, or find it too difficult, quit. As far as asking a person who does not have the qualifications to give you specific legal advice, well that is just poor judgement on your part, isn't it?

As far as the rest of my post, which you so conveniently skipped over, tell me, does disease stop once a person loses his or her job? And if that person who lost their job, paid taxes while they worked, did they not pay into medicaid, and therefore, are they not entitled to use it? What about food stamps and section 8? Did they not pay for those while they worked? Are they not entitled to those programs, to which they paid into, now that they are out of a job? It seems to me that people like you would rather see a billionaire keep an extra couple of million in his pocket, and watch ordinary people who did the right thing their entire lives, and got the shaft losing everything, suffer in the streets, to pay for that billionaire's bonus. But that is how you think, isn't it? I bet if you lost everything, you wouldn't be complaining about work like you are now.

markmitch,
You (and others) keep preaching a "fair tax", but not one of you says who ends up paying more and who ends up paying less under your so-called "fair-tax".

The number bantered about is a "Fair-tax" amount of about 17%. Now, since you are so smart, go compute your EFFECTIVE tax rate you paid last year (that would be you total tax divided by your Gross Income). Anyone who makes less than $250K probably paid and effective rate well under 17%. Those that make over $500K would have paid an effective rate well over 17%. That's why you constantly hear the right-wingers (those rich and those who are Drones) advocate a "Fair tax". It's because the rich pay a lot less under that system. Obviouly anyone paying the top federal tax rate of 35% would love that kind of system. Anyone else advocating that system doesn't know what they're talking about (that would be YOU).

however, the government does employ these people, and THEY can go through the forms, sections, and subsections, and start suggesting where to start. That is what we, the people, have paid for.

This sounds like "I'm from the government, I'm here to help you..."

If you don't like your job, or find it too difficult, quit.

I agree. We should all quit and go on welfare.

does disease stop once a person loses his or her job?

Nope. Disease stops when you die or you are cured. And with today's healthcare, it's cheaper to kill you.

And if that person who lost their job, paid taxes while they worked, did they not pay into medicaid, and therefore, are they not entitled to use it?

Yes they are. They should only be entitled to use up to what they put in. Are you suggesting that no one else should be entitled to use it? It's interesting that you mention section 8 housing. Should only those who put into the system be allowed to use this, because I'm here to tell you that's not what's going on.

It seems to me that people like you would rather see a billionaire keep an extra couple of million in his pocket, and watch ordinary people who did the right thing their entire lives, and got the shaft losing everything, suffer in the streets, to pay for that billionaire's bonus

It's stupid statements like this that give you zero credibility.

ben you asked when the top tax rate was 70 percent that was the 60s and early 70s.actually the top tax ratefor our countries best period was 90 percent in the 50s.i was giving the rich a break.even a liberal thinks 90 percent is too much.mark asks why we should have a higher tax rate for the rich.because they they have more.look at our countries standard of living at its zenith and what changed it.the rich werent able to horde their wealth the tax code took alot of it from these people and put it back into circulation increasing eveyones standard of living.protectionist legislation kept the rich from exporting our jobs.so why wouldnt we want to go back to what worked best.i can understand why the rich wouldnt.this crap economy is great for them

Really Ben? A "stupid statement"? Do you not read, at all? You know, like all those thousands of people that were fired, yet millions in bonuses were given out? A person who works is entitled to what they have paid into, if someone pays for insurance, are you saying they should only be entitled to the amount they paid into it? Seek professional help, on your own dime, of course, fast, lack of empathy is a sign of mental illness.

70's, really? I didn't think it ever got that high. I wasn't old enough to remember things like that at the time. Well, I'd like to be rich one day. It's not going to happen in this country.

Do you not read, at all? You know, like all those thousands of people that were fired, yet millions in bonuses were given out?

You're talking about GM right? That part I agree with, it was criminal. What GM did to their retirees and stockholders and bondholders, was criminal.

A person who works is entitled to what they have paid into,

Yes, I think they are. In the case of Social Security, I believe we should all get what we paid in. Those that did not pay in should not get on dime.

if someone pays for insurance, are you saying they should only be entitled to the amount they paid into it?

Insurance is different. The policy spells out what you should receive.

Seek professional help, on your own dime, of course, fast, lack of empathy is a sign of mental illness.

Lack of common sense is the first sign of idiocy. In your case, I don't believe any professional help would do any good.

johnQcitizen

StephAce

Your posts are difficult to read. Your self-pity is exactly what Barrack Hussein wants. You're "entitled to everything" mentality is exactly why this nation is going to collapse.

But fear not.

As a proud Reagan Conservative and Fiscal Libertarian I have the solution for all your Liberal Progressive ills.

It is getting so tiring listening to your incessant childish whining and crying about the mean, nasty, fat-cat, rich people in this country. And of course, the insinuation is that they’re all Republicans, Independents or Conservatives. And as Steph so compassionately explains we want all the other people to live on the streets. Your Liberal Progressive indoctrination is complete

So, keeping that in mind your only solution is very simple. Instead of getting your self-proclaimed upper education and wasting your superior intellect trying to indoctrinate our children in schools and universities at home or at work, do something much more constructive. You obviously have been indoctrinated that the whole corporate world is evil so you need to make a concerted effort to do the following.

TAKE OVER ALL THE FORBE'S 2,000 INDUSTRIES AND MAKE THEM THE UTOPIA YOU SO REVERE.

1. Go to business school for 4-8 years; learn about accounting, economics, human resources, management, payrolls, benefits, inventory and a few hundred other aspects of running a business. Especially a Forbe's 2,000 business. These are the root of all evil in your self-pity world. Right?

2. Now, after accumulating over $200,000 in student loans, go get a real job! Work your way up the corporate ladder based on merit rather than tenure. This will be an unknown accomplishment for you but you’ll pick it up quickly I’m sure. You have such superior intellect as compared to the rest of the world. Right?

3. Once you achieve your position as CEO or president of the company refuse to accept any more than $1 dollar a year in salary than your highest paid employee. No perks, no stock options, no bonuses and no golden parachutes because you know these are all the root of capitalisms failure. Right?

4. Now, do not allow your company to make ANY profits because as you all so proudly proclaim, profits are bad. Tell any investors and shareholders that they will most likely lose money if they invest in your company because that’s the cause of all the world’s problems, greed. Right?

5. Let the unions dictate all your wages, benefits and pensions because unions only care about the “little guy”. We know the unions would never use any of the rank-and-files money for anything political corrupt or imprudent like that. Right?

6. Let the EPA, environmentalists and other happy groups determine how and when you can produce your product. They, of course, are only concerned with protecting trees, lizards, smelt, turtles and other cute things. Right?

7. Oh, and make sure you tell the president you are willing to pay much more in taxes than you are responsible for to help all those who don’t want to work. It’s a free country but it’s your responsibility to pay them, even though they can work but just don’t want to. It’s only fair. RIGHT?

See how easy it is? Seven (7) simple steps.

This is all you Liberal Progressives have to do to create the utopia of social and economic justice for the collective you all cherish so dearly.

Good Luck! ! ! !

Let me ask you: How are those tax cuts working to make jobs or aiding our economy?

The answer is: IT HASN'T

No one is against profits, the people are against profits and no taxation on them. How is it that small business owners have to pay taxes on $75K profits, yet companies who profit BILLIONS, don't? Doesn't make sense, now does it?

The only incessant whining and crying is coming from the rich, because they REFUSE to pay what they owe, and can buy their way to not paying. Stop being ignorant. People who have worked their entire lives, to be throw out in the streets, shouldn't have to pay for it. They did they right thing, and what did that get them? NOTHING but grief.

steph...the tax cuts were about ten yrs ago and they provided for lots of jobs thank you....Unemployement was less that 5% up until the dems got control of congress....then it all went to hell....and it is still there...and getting worse with every new Obama program....

We need to examine the reason why some of the richest people in the world are socialists and the largest contributors to the democratic party in this country. Why would such an elite and successful group of people who have made their wealth from capitalism now support socialism and demonize the very institution that made their wealth possible. It’s actually quite simple.

• They can use government regulation to keep others from becoming competitors and manipulate the wage rate for their labor force (like Nancy Pelosi) and,
• They can bribe or blackmail unscrupulous politicians to protect this monopoly. While there are plenty of republicans who fall under the blackmail scenario (RINOs), the overwhelming majority of Democrats clearly fit into the bribery column. Examples: Anyone who thinks that Lindsey Graham isn't being blackmailed has never seen him walk. Or William J. Jefferson, the Democrat from Louisianna; Both great examples of Washington today.

Meanwhile, these fellows (Soros) at the top are pulling everyone's strings. They don't give a damn about one country or another. They want power and money and they will do whatever they have to keep it and get more. And they are laughing at us. Capitalism, Socialism, Communism; makes no difference to them. There are a few things, however, where they make a lot more money; market turmoil is one, but they make a lot more when there's a war on. It's not going to hurt them, they're not doing the fighting, but they make money either way; it doesn't even matter who wins.

What's next? Gun Control, coming soon...

mark i imagine the truth is hard to read if you're had limbaugh doing your thinking for you.you don't know much about me i own my own business.competing with illegal aliens is making it very hard to earn anything.1 a Forbes 2000 business that has bribed our representatives into allowing free trade/job exporting is an enemy yes.2working your way up a corporate ladder for the most part just isn't possible and going to college when industry has relocated is foolish.3.in a way i am a CEO of a one man company.4id agree greed is the reason we export Americans jobs.5unions represent only 11.9 percent of working Americans and most of them are government employees.they don't have a whole lot of say.6 yes i don't want acme chemical putting arsenic in the ground water so they can mine gold.nor do i want the extinction of a single other species do to mans greed7you bet ill be willing to pay alot more in tax if i ever make 250000 dollars a year

StephAce

Let me ask you: How are those tax cuts working to make jobs or aiding our economy?

Do you Liberal Progressives read anything or just spew your indoctrinated Liberal Progressive talking points?

The Bush tax cuts generated revenues equal to the end of clintons second term. Of course GWB had those two little problems to deal with. The recession he inherited from Billy Bob Clinton and of course the tragedy of 9/11. Even after the crash of 2008 revenues have been rising and almost recovered to pre-crash levels. Then came Barrack Hussein.

I did agree with Bush on the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, as did almost 80 % of American's. I didn't agree with his lack of an exit strategy, the same goes for Barrack Hussein.

Jobs are NEVER created by taxe hikes or lowering taxes. Jobs are created on sentiment. If the public feels good about their own fiscal situation jobs open up, people spend money, new jobs are created and society flourishes. This is best achieved by the government getting out of the way. The best way the government can help the economy and society is to obey its 18 enumerated powers and leave the rest to the States and people.

Once again. If you want taxes to be Fair, demand the Fair Tax be paid. This way everyone who is a citizen has an investment in our great nation. It also taps into the $1 Trillion dollar black (under the table) market.

Why should the rich be required to pay more than their fair share? Warren Buffett says he would pay more in taxes. He can send a check to the government anytime he wants. No one wants anyone thrown out on the streets. But everyone does want everyone to be responsible.

johnQcitizen

You Liberal Ptrogressives have to get it out of your indoctrinated heads that we on the Right all sit in front of the radio all day and listen to Rush or Hannity. Just as we don't think you sit in front of your TV and worship Matthews or Madcow. But we do demand that Constitutionally limited government, fiscal responsibility and free-market principles are restored. Even a Liberal Progressive agrees with those principles.

you bet ill be willing to pay alot more in tax if i ever make 250000 dollars a year

ROTFLMAO!

We'll see.

thats funny.ive never heard of mathews or madcow i listen to limbaugh.i just dont believe a word hes saying i look around myself and can see from the empty factories and buildings that hes lieing

Do you get the feeling that nobody in D.C. has a clue ? We live in a Country that has the means to be self sufficient yet we are on the brink of an economic disaster . Got a gut feeling that this is going to change America in a way that will not be good for the majority . Some people are going to reap windfalls others will go begging .

Bloggitt:

Base on what? Do you have some facts to support your ignorant statement? First Corporations are FLUSH with cash and this was not the case in 1929 because they were highly over leveraged. I could go on but you are already cluless so would be waste of time.

Corporations are flush with some 2 trillion in cash.
We are flush with some 60 trillion in debt just in the US and approximately 1/2 a quadrillion world-wide.

whos fault is it?

whos fault is it?

I am not 100% sure. Perhaps we should ask Matt?

In general, expenditures of the US government have been a percentage (greater than 100) over revenue. The greater the revenue, the larger the borrowing against a linear projection of that revenue.

If revenue had been significantly higher in the past, probably the total debt burden on the US would be much larger than it is now.

This principle can both be seen by the psychology of people that come into windfalls of cash. And in the economies of socialist minded European states with *far* higher tax rates than that of the US.

Probably until we have reached this point where the merits of "balanced" economies is taken seriously, taxation would have only fueled a proportional increase in borrowing activity.

Now regarding the finger pointing and class warfare enthusiasts, they mostly serve the interests of foreign philosophies that are not native to America. So ignore them and maybe they will go back to their home country news forums.

Dang, who's fault is this?

I believe it's Matt's fault

It is a spending problem, yes, but also a revenue problem. How many American households could manage with far less income than they earned a decade ago?

The fallacy is that all of us, Republicans and Democrats, expect certain government services -- even some we may not approve of, like two Middle East wars -- but nobody wants to pay for any of it, not even a little bit!

If you lost your job and your income, would you suddenly go on a huge spending spree and take your whole family on a lavish trip to Europe, or maybe the South Pacific? No, you would cancel cable TV and lots of other things, to try to weather the storm.

Our government has done even worse. It has VOLUNTARILY decided to forego a healthy chunk of its income -- apparently it doesn't really need the money after all -- and at the same time it has taken several lavish vacations and made huge charitable contributions -- Iraq, Afghanistan, Medicare Part D -- all enacted under the previous administration, but that's besides the point, because the current administration has done very little to curtail the drunken sailor spending spree of its predecessor.

The S&P downgrade is well deserved, as is the stock market plunge. It doesn't matter whether your favorite representative calls himself Republican, Tea Party, Democrat, Libertarian or whatever -- the simple fact is, all of these elected officials belong to a group called "spend like there's no tomorrow" and also to a group called "don't raise any taxes on those who pay for my re-election."

We will never get out of this death spiral until we do a clean sweep and get rid of every single one of those self-serving thieves in Congress -- the House and the Senate both. Not a single one of them deserves our vote our our allegiance.

GHX ... please explain the economic wonder that was the 1950s under President Eisenhower. We had a highest marinal tax rate of near 90%. Yet our factories were humming, people were working, the working middle class was expanding at a record pace. We made things, real things. We built the Interstate Highway system and it was the last time we made significant improvements in our infrastructure. We educated our students and schools were being built and expanded, not contracted. Your prescriptions don't hold water in light of what was within my lifetime. So please justify your and the Tea Party's prescriptions for what ails us in light of historical fact, not recycled theories masquerading as good for us.

practical lib,

The best thing to happen to the USA is the Tea Party. The only voice of sense and responsibility in an ocean of idiocy in DC.

only if you wanted to see this happen....its becoming painfully clear that even when holding the smoking gun, we still have people with blinders on.

GHX ... please explain the economic wonder that was the 1950s under President Eisenhower. We had a highest marinal tax rate of near 90%. Yet our factories were humming, people were working, the working middle class was expanding at a record pace.

The primary reason for our economic powerhouse in the 1950's is that we essentially had no competition. American cities and factories were not bombed out husks and rubble. The majority of american service men and women were able bodied. We were able to sell our goods globally because we were the only one who COULD.

Matt's right. The current crop of Republicans are the opposite of Eisenhower. Hey Republicans, why can't you be more like Ike? He was Republican. We'd all like you better.

Everytime I read a post from somebody with a name like sanescience, practical libertarian, commonsense, pragmatic one etc. I know I'm going to get a good dose of exactly the opposite of what the name implies. Purnell (the impartial observer) Meagre.

First Corporations are FLUSH with cash and this was not the case in 1929 because they were highly over leveraged

It was not the corporations that were highly levegeraged in the 20's, they were booming.

The investors, via margin accounts were the ones over leveraged. There were no controls, and the markets did not stop trading when huge moves happened.

When the crash happened, nobody could repay thier margin accounts, and that rippled through the banking system sucking up all the cash with a run on the banks in a vein effort to repay their insurmountable debts, and everyone else's bank accounts went to zero because of the run.

Since banks retain just a fraction of the deposits in cash, it was first come first serve and once the cash was gone, everyone else lost their deposits forever because we ran out of money at all levels.

Please try to understand what happened before trying to make lame comparisons of unrelated events trying to demonise corporations.

The only correlation is unrepayable debt, then with investors, now with the government.

lol

If this is all the fault of low taxes and right-wing policies, then why is high-tax, left-wing Europe in even worse shape than we are?

It's very simple folks - The reason we have a loss in our ratings is quite plain. $14.3 Trillion in debt and rising. S&P listed many reasons, but when you boil them all down, we as a nation have a huge burden on our economy that is near the brink of collapse.

The government has never taken any surplus and paid down on its debt except in the case of money owed for WWII. That was a different time when debt was viewed in a much different light.

The debt ceiling episode was but a wake up call... If a band of 60 united people in congress who never participated in the debates could create such havoc, imagine what another disaster could do to us as a nation.

Our elected officials should all be horsewhipped. From the top on down... after the whipping, they should all be sent into their chambers to write 1000 times, "I will not abuse the people's money ever again!"

mdsj.....If it gets that bad, lead would be a better investment !

@Rockyroad-531554,

That is a lie.

Bush = Unpaid for tax cuts for the rich

Bush = Unpaid for 2 wars

Bush = Unpaid for Medicare Part D

Bush = Interest on the tax cuts 1 trillion dollars a year

Everyone knows the fact except you.

So now you can blame Obama for you not knowing the facts.

cyd does not understand that tax cuts do not "cost" the government anything because it it not their money to begin with.

The two wars were paid for, they were not in the budget, big difference. Do you really think that Haliburton, Boeing, Lockheed, and the rest went unpaid? How naive.

Income increased to the IRS after the tax cuts, but just as it did for the Reagan and JFK cuts, congress spent all the extra money and borrowed even more.

While the tea party was able to frame the debate on budget cuts, their tactics in terms of "no compromise" and holding the economy hostage is what caused this whole debacle.

Further, they don't understand that cuts that are too steep will stall the economy and lead to higher unemployment.

Ge ScoMata, EXACLTLY where did that money to pay for those wars come from? oh yea, it was BORROWED!

gee Shellie, what is your point?

Matt, this is your fault. Shame on you! ;)

You don't really believe that they would have kept the AAA rating if there would have been no cuts do you? The Tea Party's was only able to get $2.5T in reductions to $10T in increased debt when the bonding agencies wanted $4T. In order to regain a AAA rating there has to be a real reform of the tax code, and entitlements as we are spending 25% of GDP which is historically unsustainable.

The Tea Party wouldn't let Boehner sign the $4T + grand bargain or we could have kept our AAA credit rating. The baggers playing political games with the debt ceiling was cited by S&P for a part of the reason we were downgraded. All cuts and no revenue increase = stupid and unworkable.

Dangerous, the $4T grand bargain was a grand joke that would not have kept our AAA rating. The Republicans and the Tea Partiers are on record as supporting tax reform that eliminates loop holes and decreases rates for both personal and corporate taxes. This would decrease uncertainty and increase revenue.

The country has historically taken in revenue at about 18 - 19% of GDP regardless of tax rates. We are currently spending 25% of GDP. Revenue is a concern but spending is the problem, especially entitlements. Only the Republicans and Tea Partiers have presented plans to bring them under control. The President and the Democrats have been completely silent.

Wonder what record it is that has the Tea Partiers as willing to increase tax receipts. It was their
intransigence which scuttled the $4B deal and decreased our rating.

Byron, please read past the headlines and actually read the article about the make believe $4T deal.

I suspect you also believed in Harry Reid's deal in which he would cut $1T from Afghanistan and Iraq that we weren't even going to spend.

Obama's grand bargain was higher taxes and few cuts. Our debt problem and our credit rating problem are based upon how much we spend.

Americans....Can you please supply a link to the fairy tale that the teabaggers said they were willing to close the tax loopholes their masters want to keep. Names and quotes from someone other than Fox news or the drug addict Rush L.

Byron

Look into the Ryan Budget Plan. The closing of Tax Loopholes and the DECREASE of Tax Rates is in there.

IF you personally believe YOUR tax rates are too low, the IRS will accept additional money. I am willing to bet you tax hike fans took every deduction the law allowed and then failed to report income from sale of personal items etc.

What we need is a working economy not more taxes, unemployment, foreclosures and bankruptcies. Raise taxes and you will see more of each of these nasties and don't give me guff about the rich. Every tax increase I have ever seen has gone after the middle class and small business while sparing giant conglomerates who pay our POTUS and congress off with lobbying and supposedly legal bribes in the form of campaign contributions. The current POTUS received millions from the very same banks he immediately on taking office gave billions to.

While the sky-is-falling crowd is rushing to blame, the reality is neither as bad as the headlines or as simple as a few dozen people elected 8 months ago.

Until people realize this will not be fixed by assigning blame - we will continue to suck.

The American people need to expect / demand a more responsible government than what we have. We need to hold INDIVIDUALS in government accountable - and not let anyone slide because they are democrat or republican.

This entire mess has been caused by the American taxpayer allowing the government, which we elected - the one suppose to be working FOR the American people - to function irresponsibly and without limits.

The American voter is the only ones who can rectify this and NOT by finger pointing.

This entire mess has been caused by the American taxpayer allowing the government, which we elected - the one suppose to be working FOR the American people - to function irresponsibly and without limits.

At the end of the day it always comes down to you get the government you deserve doesn't it? That's actually what scares me...

The Tea Party wouldn't let Boehner sign the $4T + grand bargain or we could have kept our AAA credit rating. The baggers playing political games with the debt ceiling was cited by S&P for a part of the reason we were downgraded.

Not really, reckless spending is what got us into this mess. Do you really think the other nations and credit rating agencies only noticed this problem in the last few weeks? They have been warning us for a long time, we just ignored them.

dimwitted ... can you post reliable statistics (i.e., not Fox News) showing historical percentage spending of GDP. You've made a statement that needs to be backed up with real information. I don't know, for example that your sweeping statement about the lack of sustainability, is true and how percentages look in terms of numbers and economic history. Please provide some basis for your statement.

Also dim ... if revenue is a concern, but spending the problem, and entitlements need to be "curtailed" ... I have a few more questions. If revenue is a concern, why haven't the Tea Party adherents been willing to look at revenue as also needing fixing? If spending is a problem and entitlements need to be curbed ... why only entitlements? Why not defense? Surely you can concede that when Congress continues to fund weapons systems that the military does not want to the tune of billions of dollars ... shouldn't this also be addressed? By "curbing" entitlements means turning over social security, medicare, medicaid, etc., to private entities ... why do you think we who depend or will depend on these "entitlements" and have in fact funded them with our tax contributions would trust private business to be as reliable as the U.S. government? I mean, for god's sake, have you forgotten the meltdown of the financial system recently and possibly looming again? Are you ignoring the practices of the private insurance industry? Can you please tell me how those clowns should be in charge of our social security pensions (the bedrock upon which we plan our retirement years), our elder care medicine, and how ethical it is to let people of modest means starve and die when a few have everything?

Exactly what ethical and moral system do the Tea Party crowd base their decisions? Survival of the fittest? May the strongest survive? How do you defend that in human society in the 21st century?

Dim witted is completely wrong. The $4T deal was the best option available. Actually we should have undone the Bush tax cuts as well as doing those things.

Absolutely Mark.

There was no 4t deal from Obama, as the CBO stated,"we can not evaluate a speech". There were no specifics whatsoever.

It was just about as meanigfull as that last Obama budget submitted to Congress that was voted down 97-0 in the Senate.

FYI there are less that 50 republicans in the Senate, what does this tell you? Think about it and ditch the bias and deal with the truth.

ScoMata

It was a negotiating position. If you weren't there, it was Obama's negotiating that actually went through both chambers. Dictating a plan and having it scored and trying to ram it through failed multiple times. At the end of the day, there was zero evidence that Obama was not a reasonable negotiating partner and ready to cut 4 trillion from the deficit.

In the last two and a half years, there hasn't been something that he pushed that he wasn't serious about achieving no matter the political cost. The Republicans were disingenuous obviously. They just wanted to say Obama had no plan to cover walking out on him three times over revenue.

Then you come in and lap it all up and repeat manufactured talking points. Only, for me to accept them, I'd have to believe a fairy tale that it wasn't Republicans floating useless votes and ideas that had no chance of passage, but the President.

The record shows that the final deal drew almost entirely from the White House negotiations. If you say the CBO can't score incomplete negotiations, then I'll say that S&P can't score the antics of the House as a real law. It really doesn't matter how many right wing votes Boehner was having his drones take while Rome was burning.

Tell me, what was the point of all that nonsense the last two weeks? Explain it to me. What exactly was the Speaker of the House spending all his time doing and how did it benefit the country?

Tea Party goal was to destroy the American economy so that a black man would never be elected again. You tell me, Mission Accomplished ?

I can guarantee you the market would not be tanking if the Democrats still controlled the House. Believe it or not, things were better and looking better in 2010 than they are right now.

Sorry to say it so bluntly, but it took a LOT to turn this economy from the precipice of depression and very little to turn it back again. It all depends on the motives of our elected leaders.

Obama tries to get S&P to reconsider and denounces them, Republicans cheer.

We should have seen this coming when we lost the 2016 bid for the Olympics and Republicans burst out cheering.

@Americans are dim witted,

Yeah spending is the problem tell all the republicans to give back the Bush tax cuts, they are killing us. We borrow 1 trillion dollars a year for them. So tell you tea party friends If they want a balance budget in 8 years give the Bush tax cuts back. And leave the poor alone. Do you see what happens to the poor if you don't help them - Africa. The starve to death and die. I'm sure you want that to happen to all your American friends who are not rich and depend a fixed income.

I can guarantee

BS meter pegged, needle ready to snap.

Ditch the Bush tax cuts, close the loop holes and then let's talk about more cuts.

Really ScoMata? Last time I checked, we were in a radical bull market that began in March, 2009 with a single speech from Obama and the Treasury Department and had been ramping up since. Only one thing changed between the peak in April and today.

No one can deny that the NEEDLESS debt ceiling battle destroyed consumer confidence just like the FAA nonsense cost 400 million dollars. If the objective was to get Obama to address the deficit, then they should have negotiated with him back months ago without bringing us to the brink. Nothing about the brinksmanship made the deal better or got more cuts. In fact, it made the deal worse and the ECONOMY worse.

FYI there are less that 50 republicans in the Senate, what does this tell you? Think about it and ditch the bias and deal with the truth.

It tells everyone that the minority GOP in the Senate can kill anything through the filibuster. The majority is only important in the House.

ScoMAta1964

President Obama does not submit a budget to congress. He can only make suggestions. It is congresses job to create and pass a budget which they then send to the president. He can either sign it or veto it. Congress can then try to override the president’s veto by a majority vote. Get your facts straight before posting will ya!

Obama submits a budget to Congress each year by February. Republicans then promptly filibuster it like they'd filibuster Christmas and rainbows or apparently the entire economy.

In any case, passing a budget is the job of Congress.

Not one democrat voted to let Obamas last budget proceed to comittee. That is striking no matter how you try to spin it.

Scott in Maine, you do not know how the budget process works apparantly.

Dante, the republicans did not "filibuster" Obamas budget. It never even made it in the door. And "radical bull market"....on what planet? Wall Street is flat for the past decade.

The 2010 budget got all but two democratic votes. Sorry, I was wondering if you were in same crowd that attacked Obama for the Congress not passing a budget as if the people saying that weren't themselves in Congress. The 2011 budget probably would have been good for the economy to be honest, but here we are on the death spiral of Hoover-like cuts during a slow economy.

I live on Earth. The bull market was from March 9th 2009 to April 2011 for a rally from 666 to 1,300 on the broad S&P index. The bear market before that was from November 2007 to March 2009. The bull market before that was from 2004-2007. The bear market before that was from 2001-2004.

I'm sorry if you don't understand the definition of bull or bear market but it is defined as a 20% change from a recent low or high respectively. If we take the Obama administration on its own, it has been 95% in bull market territory. I made tons myself. If you expand the time horizon over a decade, the two bear markets in the 2000's cancel out the one bull market, but sorry for being technical. I just can't use talking points to make facts go away.

Honestly if instead of addressing what was said, all you are going to do is pick out a single statement like "we were in a radical bull market that began in March, 2009" and say "Wall Street is flat for the past decade" I'm inclined to teach you that 2009 isn't a decade ago. If the problem is reading comprehension, then don't worry yourself about the economy. Go buy Chinese stocks or whatever.

dante, what you fail to understand about the market is that it should be at about 16,000 right now with normal growth.

You cant count gains twice, or three times after crashes. It may SEEM like a bull market when the market recovers from panic lows, but that is just an adjustment to more realistic levels based on real numbers like P/E and growth.

Short term trading is not related to bull or bear markets. The longs are not seeing the bull, and have not for a long time.

By the way, the Chinese telecom stocks are quite hot, you might want to look into them.

What you fail to understand about the market is that 16,000 is an irrational number. The 1990's bull run sent P/E ratios to an unsustainable 40X or higher just like the 2007 nonsense sent it up to 30X. Based on a Dow of 1,000 in 1980, why on earth do you expect a Dow of 16,000 today? Based on what? Is the corporate sector 16X as valuable as it was 30 years ago? How is that normal growth? Just because the Dow reached 14k in 2007 doesn't mean that it was a reasonable value.

Your backpedaling doesn't make a 2 and a half year 100% increase not a bull run. Assuming a P/E ratio of 13, the market should be exactly where it was three weeks ago. The bull run we just had tracked earnings growth, not wild speculation and we haven't gotten out of whack with reality and the reality of the current era is good corporate bottom lines.

What a bull run is is the run up from a bottom to a top. The speed of the current one is notable and did very well for anyone who has enough sense to watch their investments and invest according to the economy. Yes, the 2007-2009 recession was avoidable just as the shock of the default battle was and it caused a crash, but the crash ended and through two years of very, very bad economic news worldwide, the US economy and market endured.

I divested in June and I'll reinvest when I have more confidence in Congress (I'll see if they don't try to shut down the government in September). Meanwhile, outside of Congress, nothing has changed but consumer confidence. There is literally nothing to fix on the economic front except sentiment.

As for China, they have been in a 5 year bear market that shows no sign of changing. Furthermore, not only do their averages refuse to go up, their moves are usually larger to the downside and their economic fundamentals are weak. (Super inflation, government is 60% of GDP, empty cities, declining trade balance, social unrest, poor investment environment for foreign capital, alignment with rouge nations, phoney numbers, communism, currency manipulation). A much better investment opportunity is a rational upward mobile market.

Dow long terms trends-

Long term flat (1920-1942)

Long term above trend (1942-1967)

Long term flat (1967-1982)

Long term above trend (1982-2000)

Long Term flat (2000- )

The Dow is acting normally with respect to long term trends. I assume the next above trend (irrational) run will come around 2015-2016. It all depends on how much confidence is weakened by government in the years to come.

Take another look. No one bought Japan to begin with so it doesn't mean spit. The KOSPI was down over 7% before circuit breakers kicked in and the TAIEX was down over 5%...Margin selling is rampant. Foreign buyers are pulling all their money out of their markets. Six of Fifteen International Markets are now in official Bear territory with the rest likely to follow. Don't drink the koolaide. Get out now. This sucker is going down!

The lower your credit rating, the more expensive it is to borrow money. How can you not understand this? It works the very same way for you personally.

This is a very big deal because we cant afford our debt now, so how can we afford to refinance at a higher rate? Again, just like with you personally.

S&P? Were they not the ones that gave the credit default swaps a AAA rating?

You still trust them?

Outside observer, dead on and then some. I don't trust ANYBODY anymore. Do you?

S&P was the same rating agency that was giving the bundled housing loans AAA ratings... Their creditability is ZERO...

The markets are reacting to a COMBINATION of things. The USA POLITICIANS are just doing what the EU countries have been doing for the last THREE decades. You also need to look at the actions being taken to prop-up Italy, Greece, Portugal, etc which occurred last week. The CO2 tax in Australia was causing their market to tank and the Asian nations were already dropping, due to China...

The Arab Spring has been happening in the EU countries for the last decade...

No matter what the USA does things are going to become a lot worse...

For those living on Government hand-outs, you better have a garden. Between the devaluation of the USD, rising food cost, and coming CUTS in social programs. you can not EAT - GOLD..

If the USA wants to generate INCOME - CALL all government loans made to EVERYONE and refinance the rates using 2x LIBOR as the base. No more ZERO rates to the banks...

@.1,.2,.3

It does not matter what you think, they still have incredible sway with the markets and they WILL effect you if you have any kind of loan or credit line because this is going to raise your interest rate (education loan, small business loan, mortgage, etc).

Moody's and Finch are sitting on the Triple A rating for the moment, but I am sure we all know they will also downgrade us eventually. Though there is still time to fix this, we just have to get over the party line drivile in Washington and truly put EVERYTHING, DOD, medicare, SS cuts to tax increases and tax reform to kill loop holes and Corporate tax trickle down, on the table without any form of partisanship or show boating.

This super committee should also be forced to sign an anti-corruption pledge that says they will go to jail, and their co-conspirators fined like crazy, if it is found out that any of their choices were influenced by any previous political donations or lobbying and that while on the committee that they cannot receive political donations or have any contact with lobbyists period.

S&P? Were they not the ones that gave the credit default swaps a AAA rating?

S&P was the same rating agency that was giving the bundled housing loans AAA ratings... Their creditability is ZERO...

That is one way to look at it, another way is our problems are so bad even the guys who thought credit default swaps and the housing market were okay can't miss this problem.

And this matters why? Countries that buy our bonds pay attention to S&P and that is all that is really relevant, not your personal or anyone elses opinion of them.

You can say the same about Trans Union, but opinions do not change your cost of borrowing now do they?

@ScoMata1964,

Are you serious? The S&P credit swaps AAA+ ratings. They are a joke.

If we are in a deep deep recession and you buy into the dumpass ideal the United States Government not spend another dime. Is reckless and dangerous with economic suicide, with a bomb attached to the capital 'S".

Read your history they did that during a depression and went into the deepest depression in history.

This is the longest recession in history but you want them to make the same mistake by taking money out of the economy with hundreds of job losses now. Again you are reckless and a danger to this great nation. Thanks for you opinion but no thanks to any ideal you may have in the present or future concerning The United States of America.

The also left 2 Trillion off there estimate.

cyd,

I fail to see what your post has to do with mine.

All your off topic ranting does not change the fact that interest rates will rise on all our new debt whether you like S&P or not.

And who couldn't see this coming a mile away? Hey Congress, hey Mr. Prez, are you happy now? S&P has bit the hand that fed them, too. They are all in cahoots together. What canthe American public do? (I'm still up for tar and feathers for all of them.) The whole world is going to feel this bite; we are not alone. I certainly hope everyone of those Congressional politicians is voted out of office--EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM. I hope we all back away from the S&P, and let them drown in their own swill.

All of these so called politicians had every opportunity to work out the problems, but they were so caught up in their party strong-arm tactics, they forgot their primary job. Now we all must pay for it. S&P got bailed out--in the not too distant past--for their failures to do their jobs. They didn't vet their loans or cover their bases, so they got bailed by the very government they just put a knife into the back of.

And Mr. Obama, we've told you over and over and over, you can NOT spend your way out of debt. Your "hope and change" has not only proven worthless, it has proven costly.

Many workable solutions have been put forth. (I've read [and written] a few right on these vine forums). Unfortunately, the dunderheads who think they know it all refuse to even look at them. Somethings gotta give, and I've got news for Washington and the financial district, it's going to be them. The American public has had it with their gamesmanship.

I agree that much of the US has adopted an entitlement mentality that is killing us, but there is also a strong contingent that would keep the US in the lead if the government got out of the way.

maybe China can police the world and keep the peace? this seems to be a logical transition if it is China's turn. But will they spend billions on wars they cannot win?

Just hope when the Chinese take over that they don't decide to reshape our Government to one more to their liking .

i suspect the chinese wouldn't be attempting to police the world ---- that is our ego-trip, not anyone elses.

The government got out of the way for eight years, AADW, and it caused the first part of this depression. Now the teabaggers just refused to let government put reason back into the economy, and we just started part 2. And of course, your only answer is to do the exact same things that got us into this mess in the first place.

China and 3rd world countries is where most of my investments are...... I'm looking forward to increasing the potfolio and retiring in 5 years!

Sorry Toasty, "reason" is not overspending by $1.4 trillion per year. That my friend is complete unmitigated insanity.

The Tea Party is likely our only hope, as they are willing to admit our stupidity and do something about it.

My investments are in Thailand, they have the 13th largest budget surplus in the world. And their Government run Banking industry escaped the US credit melt-down.

The average Thai pays NO Taxes except for a fuel and sales tax. They have Universal Health Care, that is based on Government trained doctors/nurses. They have a National Energy policy that has converted the majority of their mass transit/electrical to NG.

Basically their economy is self sustaining and no matter what happens in the WORLD, few Thais will know anything about it and they will suffer ZERO effects...

Now the teabaggers just refused to let government put reason back into the economy, and we just started part 2.

Shoot the messenger. Do you really think none of this would have happened if the tea party didn't exist?

I have no idea ... but I don't like the fact that they enable the continuing Corporatocracy. Look at the latter half of the 19th century for what that leads to. Where or where is our TEddy Roosevelt!

Robert-385246....Holding the country for ransom over the debt ceiling showed the world that our economy could be controlled by a minority of extremists, that took away any remaining credibility we had.

I love the people here blaming the Tea Party for this problem. I don't remember Obama originally tying the debt limit increase to reduced spending or increased revenue. He just wanted the limit raised. Do you people actually think that blindly raising the debt limit wouldn't have led to the downgrade? If it weren't for the Tea, there wouldn't have been any attempt at decreasing the deficit. The so called 4 trillion reduction proposed by the democrats, included 2 trillion for winding down the wars which would have happened regardless of any debt limit agreement.

sdpaulson, great!

I have noticed that the Chinese stock market has has dropped 30% while the US stock market gained 100% over the last two and a half years. If you haven't noticed this, you honestly deserve what happens to your money.

Look at a graph of the Chinese stock market from 2007 to now (7000 to 2500) for your own sake. It is perhaps the worst performing stock market on Earth and far, FAR worse than any US index. By no stretch of the imagination has DOW or S&P lost 2/3 of its value.

Realist. All the depressed economic activity from people being terrified that we were going to default is squarely the fault of the Tea Party. The S&P statement included the conduct of the debt debate as their primary reason and said that bringing the US that close to default brought into question our credit worthiness to begin with.

There was no mathematical reason the US would default any time soon. The only reason would be political.

dante,

I have to disagree with you. The credit rating companies were talking about lowering the credit rating before the debt limit discussions started. These warnings weren't because of the possibility of default, but because of the growing debt without any attempt at reducing it. The credit rating companies didn't need the Tea party to see that the current course was unsustainable. Raising the debt limit without question and borrowing more money would have resulted in a reduction in our credit rating at some point in the near future. Ponzi schemes have to eventually fail, and borrowing money to pay the bills is a Ponzi scheme. It's better to suffer the inevitable consequences now and start the healing process than wait for an even bigger problem down the road.

"More broadly, the downgrade reflects our view that the effectiveness, stability, and predictability of American policymaking and political institutions have weakened at a time of ongoing fiscal and economic challenges to a degree more than we envisioned when we assigned a negative outlook to the rating on April 18, 2011."

"Compared with previous projections, our revised base case scenario now assumes that the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts, due to expire by the end of 2012, remain in place. We have changed our assumption on this because the majority of Republicans in Congress continue to resist any measure that would raise revenues, a position we believe Congress reinforced by passing the act."

The S&P statement said a LOT about politics and little about our credit worthiness. I don't have to blame the Tea Party, S&P did. Over 10 years, the Bush tax cuts contribute 4 trillion to the debt alone.

Crashing the economy doesn't heal the economy. Nothing about the downgrade makes us stronger and it makes the deficit problem worse, not better. The problem is the vocal members of Congress who WANTED this to happen just like you seem to.

This is not inevitable, this was a manufactured crisis planned and executed. If you want to reduce the deficit, you reduce the deficit, you don't scream about protecting oil subsidies and threaten to default America if we continue to fund the EPA.

Obama was willing to cut 4 trillion, Republicans were willing to score political points. End of story. S&P has spoken.

They're willing to admit our stupidity and press down on the accelerator.

Holding the country for ransom over the debt ceiling showed the world that our economy could be controlled by a minority of extremists, that took away any remaining credibility we had.

Sorry, there is nothing "extremist" about responsible government. Unfortunately our credibility was shot long before the Tea Party came into existence.

Index retirement age to inflation.

Please explain.

Yup, Medicare and Social Security need to be adjusted so the same folks paid in is paid out. Today's recipients are taking a LOT more than they paid in, mostly in the form of medical services they would never dream of if they had to pay themselves...

Sorry, I meant index retirement age to longevity.

Social Security today is a pyramid scheme. It simply doesn't work when people are on Social Security for 30 and 40 years. Longevity was less than the retirement age when Social Security was formed now it is closs to 14 years past retirement age. Social Security was a retirement insurance plan, not a 40 year pension.

If all the money i and my employer had paid to social security in my 50 years of working had been invested even at the going interest rate instead of being squandered by the government i wouldn't need social security now.

No bones, you'd need a soup kitchen and welfare because everything you put in for those 50 years would have been wiped out in 2007. Guess your memory is short huh.

Do people like sfilutze irritate the rest of you as bad as they do me?

Forget about 1950 let's just go back to 1971.

1971 - Revenues in 2010 dollars - Spending in 2010 dollars

$995.8 billion - $1.188 trillion

2010 - Revenues in 2010 dollars - Spending in 2010 dollars

$2.162 trillion - $3.456 trillion

Government revenue, adjusted for inflation has more than doubled since the 1971 and government spending has more than tripled. How dumb as a stump do you have to be to not understand that it is fairyland to keep going the way we are. If it weren't for the Tea Party's members we would have no cuts even if they are too small, and we would have been downgraded even more.

Nope. I'm not irritated at all he makes good points that, while they may tick you off, remain valid.

All cuts and no revenue increases is exactly what plunged this country into the Great Depression last century. The problem is not government. The problem is gargantuan corporations who will not pay their fair share and send all the jobs overseas for short term profit.

Then they turn around and whine about how they don't get enough in tax breaks or incentives. Deregulation and further tax breaks for billionaires and millionaires is not the answer. We still haven't seen any jobs created for 10 years worth of Bush tax cuts. Say goodbye to them we need income.

If the baggers would shut up with the blame Obama b.s. for 10 minutes we could start to discuss closing tax loopholes and which useless corporate welfare to cut. This country needs income as well as spending cuts. A majority agreed with that position in every poll taken during the debt ceiling debate. That majority includes Republicans. A majority of economists agree with that too. The only ones who don't are the baggers. The rest of us realize what's good for the Koch brothers isn't necessarily good for the country.

Dangerous, please list even one good point that sfilutzed made. You don't feed the bears and you don't support irrational people with made up numbers.

I agree that large corporations should pay their fair share, and that number needs to be around 25% with zero loopholes to compete internationally. It is a canard to suggest they don't pay any taxes. The problem is the government, it is the largest, by far, statist enterprise that threatens our freedoms and way of life. Which companies do you know that spend $3.5 trillion per year?

The richest 1% pay 40% of the federal income taxes and make 20% of the income. How much do you want them to pay?

From the end of the 9/11 terrorist attack and dotcom bubble recession to when the Democrats took over Congress, the Bush tax cuts created over 8 million jobs. Most of those were lost with the great recession, which was not the fault of the Bush tax cuts.

The country has never taken in more than 21% of GDP in revenue and has averaged about 18%. Fixing the tax code would be an excellent step, but unless you fix entitlements are credit rating will continue to be down graded.

Please step outside of the silly propaganda about tea baggers and the Koch brothers and look at the real numbers. The country needs more revenue from people being hired and the country experiencing economic growth. That will not happen while you have higher taxes, Obamacare, rampant entitlement spending, and the attack on business and the wealthy.

from Sfilutze's post I'll start: ...."the trolls from FAUX News.

All cuts and no revenue increase is an unworkable and untenable position that will not work. Similar ideology is what plunged this economy into the Great Depression.

Anyone who points out the flaws to that thinking is making a good point. Furthermore I don't need your permission on what to think or who to support.

Take your twisted tea math elsewhere. A very very small percentage of partisan ideologues agree with your bogus numbers.

You lose any and all credibility saying the Bush tax cuts created jobs. Where did you get your numbers? Never Never Land?

Thanks Tea Party Twits

Regards, My 401K

... looking forward to the opportunity to return the favor sometime

Dangerous Mind, are whole numbers too complicated for you? Should I convert every number into grams of pixie dust?

Facts are not subject to your interpretation.

The numbers are readily available. You often see than Bush only created just over 1 million jobs. That is because of the two recessions and the dot com crash. From the creation of the tax cuts to when the Democrats took over the budget, 8 million jobs were created. You do remember how low unemployment was for about five years right, or were you in some drug induced stupor for all of that time?

A LOT of 401K plans took a dive in reaction to the S&P downgrade. Really hits you in the pocketbook, doesn't it?

Republican Tea Partiers, I suspect you just lost not only the confidence of a portion of your own voting electorate, but also lost the votes of millions of other non-conservatives and independent voters in this country.

"Payback's going to be a bitch."

US Government Revenue 2010 - 4,200.8B

US Government Revenue 1955 - 106.4B

US Government Spending 2010 - 5,798.8B

US Government Spending 1955 -110.7B

Population 2010 - 308.7M

Population 1955 – 164.7M

So

Population doubled

Spending went up about 50 times 1955 levels (yes not inflation adjusted but prices have not went up 50 times or 25 times since 1955).

Revenue went up about 40 times 1955 levels.

Base Spending and Revenue. SS was supposed to pay for itself.

Revenues increase with JOB GROWTH, not by increasing the tax rates. Increasing tax rates during a recessionary or flat economy is complete idiocy.

We have less than 60% of our working population actually working. It is at historically low levels. Private sector jobs are the only solution - why is nothing being done about this while trillions are being spent to maintain government job growth which is that big sucking sound we hear coming from DC?

Question, if unemployment is at 9%, how does that equate to "60% of our working population actually working"?

Chris, get ready for the Fox supplied 40% real unemployment. /s

Anyway, if the "job" creators were going to create jobs they would have done it already back in February-July. Businesses are making tons of cash, specifically the oil companies are at the top of that list. Instead of reinvesting that money they are sitting on it. Sitting on it and doing nothing. If they had any decency they would donate that money, or a portion to some third party organization or to the Government with stipulation that it be used to fix the infrastructure.

This is why I think we need to lower corporate tax levels but raise taxes on individuals, businesses are out to make money, sure no question there BUT would not the logical thing to do when the building you work out of is at risk of catching fire be to invest in fire prevention measures?

Why have these companies not offered to help the Government reinvest their money into the very systems that they use everyday; the high way system or water works? Or bettter yet why are they not building out their own companies to make even more profit and create construction jobs and fulltime jobs with their company once the buildings are up? Why are they out sourcing their jobs over seas instead of investing in America?

I want to know the real answers to these questions and not some stint about how anti-industry America is. I want to know why they are throwing America under the bus just so they can have literal slave labor by today's standards (2 cents an hour in China for example).

Greed (all facets of the term, including supposed anti-industry regulations) is not the only reason, it is a big part of it but that cannot be the whole picture because it just does not add up.

All cuts and no revenue increases is exactly what plunged this country into the Great Depression last century.

Probably not. I've never heard that as an explanation from anyone who stuidied the Great Depression.

The problem is not government. The problem is gargantuan corporations who will not pay their fair share and send all the jobs overseas for short term profit.

Corporations do pay their share. The figures I've seen say that corporations pay about 9% of the total amount of revenue collected. There aren't that many corporations so that 9% is huge.

Republican Tea Partiers, I suspect you just lost not only the confidence of a portion of your own voting electorate, but also lost the votes of millions of other non-conservatives and independent voters in this country.

Ah yes, the Tea Party is finished argument. I've been hearing that for a while now. Here is how the Democrats have defined the Tea Party since their formation:

2008. The Tea Party is a fringe element of the Republican party. Will have no affect on the elections. We can safely ignore them.

2009. The Tea Party might affect Republican elections, but they will have no affect on the national elections. We can safely ignore them.

2010. The Tea Party affected the national elections, but they are too small to have any impact on the government. We can safely ignore them.

2011. The Tea Party humiliated President Obama during the debt ceiling debates, but their antics have doomed them in the 2012 election.

It will be interesting to see what you have to say about them after the 2012 elections. Now if you will excuse me I have to mail some campaign contributions to politicians who are trying to reign in government spending.

In order to solve this problem, we are going to have to change our mindset. Frankly, this deficit spending is the most selfish, evil thing I have ever witnessed. It is an evil that must be destroyed or otherwise it will destroy us.

Follow my logic on this:

* Borrowing money to pay our bills today and expecting someone else (probably someone who has not even been born) to pay the bill is just stealing. It is generational theft, and truthfully, I do not think people who have not even been born should have to pay my bills or your bills. What kind of uncaring person would think that is a good idea. Therefore, deficit spending is very selfish and immoral. It's stealing and it has to stop.

* Similarly, socialism is immoral at its core because it seeks to steal from one group (e.g. progressive taxes at the point of a gun) in order to give to another group (e.g. earned income tax credit) through government intervention. Although the intent may (or may not) be sincere and appear to be helpful to those in need, the method is still simply legalized stealing. Therefore, it is wrong; it is immoral. Take note that in the Holy Bible, there is no such thing as a progressive tithe. God expects everyone (rich and poor alike) to give one tenth. If that system is good enough for God, then it's good enough for me. Therefore, the concept of trying to stick it to people who make more than your or I do must stop. It is wrong; it is immoral; it is stealing; it must stop.

* Legalized stealing leads to corruption. Humans are by their very nature selfish and corrupt. Therefore, you should never invent a system whereby a government is given authority to take from one group to give to another. It is no more acceptable to steal from a wealthy person than it is from a poor person. Wrong is wrong. If you do not recognize that principle, then there is something dreadfully wrong inside of you; you are missing your moral compass.

* Charity belongs exclusively to the private sector. Charitable giving is not the proper function of government. I am not against charity. I believe in charity, I think you should be compassionate, and I give plenty to those who are less fortunate. However, it is simply wrong to forcibly take money from one person and give it to another. It should be my right to decide to whom I give financial help, money, gifts, etc. I do not trust government to do that for me. I would not trust anyone to make those decisions, except Jesus, and if you will recall, Jesus never forced anyone to do anything.

* You must never consume more than you produce. That's immoral unless you are disabled. Therefore, if you are able bodied, you must work if you want to eat. The harder you work, the better you eat. If you are lazy, then why should I be required to give up what I worked hard to earn to give it to someone who did nothing to earn it? A system such as this will make both of us want to quit working. What is the incentive for either to work? Eventually, this system will collapse as have all communist nations that have ever existed (e.g. USSR).

I do not expect someone else to pay my bills. To do so is immoral. I do not expect someone to get up in the morning, go to work, and work hard all day in order TO MY BILLS. That is ridiculous. I work hard everyday to provide for my family, to pay my bills and to better my life. You should do the same. Therefore, the earned income tax credit must go.

If the law takes money from me (at the point of a gun) to give my money to someone else (whether they need it or not - and by the way who gets to decide what you and I need), then that is simply a form of stealing and more bluntly is a form of slavery. Correction, it is not a form of slavery; it is slavery. Why should I be required to go to work to pay your bills? That is immoral; that is wrong.

Therefore, we need for the government to get its hand out of our pockets, our kids pockets, our future grandkids and great grandkids pockets. Politicians must stop stealing our money and buying votes with it. If this does not stop, this country will not survive.

That is the bottom line.

sfilutze,

If there were the slightest reason to believe that increasing taxes would lead to anything besides higher spending, I think you'd find the Republicans to be very reasonable on taxes.

But since higher taxes have never led to anything but higher spending in our lifetimes, they're demanding major spending cuts first. Seems only logical here...

Fred Bastiat,

I pretty much agree with all you said, but I would go a step farther re charity.

There is absolutely nothing charitable about taking money from one person at gunpoint (as you describe it) and giving it to another. Nor is there anything "Chistian" about it. Jesus implored his flock to give of themselves.

S&P also stated that had the US passed Cut, Cap, and Balance, there would have been no downgrade. Cut Cap and Balance was blocked in the US Senate by the Democratic party.

There was a deal on the table between Beohner and Obama to close up $800 Billion in tax loop holes, and it also made the $4 trillion goal that S&P set for them. In order to agree to that deal the President said he needed an additional increase in taxes of $400 Billion. The President verified this in his speech immediately after Beohner left the White House in frustration. Again they had a deal that met all of the criteria that S&P had given them and the President insisted that they go beyond that by adding more taxes to it.

After killing 2 deals with the Republicans, preventing open discussion and a vote on Cut Cap and Balance, and then substituting a deal that did not meet the criteria that they were given by S&P, the Democrats are still spinning that this is all the fault of the Tea Party. They've branded the Republicans the party of "No". In reality the Democrats have become the party of "Not Me".

In this debacle, I saw Beohner running all over Washington trying to bring everyone together, he didn't speak out in a negative way once during his negotiations with the President. The President was blaming the Republicans several times a week for not having an agreement. Beohner only spoke publicly after he came to the conclusion that he would not come up with a deal that met everyone's goals by including the President in the works. I saw the House pass two bills that could have been amended by the Senate; but, were instead blocked. I watched Harry Reid snipe like a 7 year old at McConnel because he asked for a 60 vote in the Senate on Reid's plan- if Reid couldn't get the support of 7 Republican Senators, how did he expect to get it passed a Republican House? Then I saw the White House try to pull off a last minute back door deal in order to make themselves look like the heroes. That deal didn't meet the criteria that S&P wanted. So here we are.

It's inconceivable that Obama supporters are still holding him blameless with all of the partisan politics that were played.

Good points Dan. This is beyond a D vs R issue. We all have the right to expect responsible government which would include a balanced budget and deficit reduction plan. It is beyond me how the debt crisis ended with no real plan to address these problems. Hopefully the S&P downgrade will cause both sides to come together to do the important and hard things that need to be done to get us back on track.

Please show me in the decision where it's all about any ONE party ?

· We have lowered our long-term sovereign credit rating on the United States of America to 'AA+' from 'AAA' and affirmed the 'A-1+' short-term rating.
· We have also removed both the short- and long-term ratings from CreditWatch negative.
· The downgrade reflects our opinion that the fiscal consolidation planmthat Congress and the Administration recently agreed to falls short of what, in our view, would be necessary to stabilize the government's medium-term debt dynamics.
· More broadly, the downgrade reflects our view that the effectiveness, stability, and predictability of American policymaking and political institutions have weakened at a time of ongoing fiscal and economic challenges to a degree more than we envisioned when we assigned a negative outlook to the rating on April 18, 2011.
· Since then, we have changed our view of the difficulties in bridging the gulf between the political parties over fiscal policy, which makes us pessimistic about the capacity of Congress and the Administration to be able to leverage their agreement this week into a broader fiscal consolidation plan that stabilizes the government's debt dynamics any time soon.
· The outlook on the long-term rating is negative. We could lower the long-term rating to 'AA' within the next two years if we see that less reduction in spending than agreed to, higher interest rates, or new fiscal pressures during the period result in a higher general government debt trajectory than we currently assume in our base case.

"Republicans and Democrats have only been able to agree to relatively modest savings on discretionary spending while delegating to the Select Committee decisions on more comprehensive measures. It appears that for now, new revenues have dropped down on the menu of policy options. In addition, the plan envisions only minor policy changes on Medicare and little change in other entitlements, the containment of which we and most other independent observers regard as key to long-term fiscal sustainability. Our opinion is that elected officials remain wary of ackling the structural issues required to effectively address the rising U.S. public debt burden in a manner consistent with a 'AAA' rating and with 'AAA' rated sovereign peers (see Sovereign government Rating Methodology and Assumptions," June 30, 2011, especially Paragraphs 36-41). In our view, the difficulty in framing a consensus on fiscal policy weakens the government's ability to manage public finances and diverts attention from the debate over how to achieve more balanced and dynamic economic growth in an era of fiscal stringency and private-sector deleveraging (ibid). A new political consensus might (or might not) emerge after the 2012 elections, but we believe that by then, the government debt burden will likely be higher, the needed medium-term fiscal adjustment potentially greater, and the inflection point on the U.S. population's demographics and other age-related spending drivers closer at hand (see "Global Aging 2011: In The U.S., Going Gray Will Likely Cost Even More Green, Now," June 21, 2011).

Standard & Poor's takes no position on the mix of spending and revenue measures that Congress and the Administration might conclude is appropriate for putting the U.S.'s finances on a sustainable footing."

and on and on - read the whole decision and make up your own mind. BUT please stop blaming one party or another - how we got here was in the makings for decades......

The 1995/96 Gov't shutdown which was over spending cuts was vetoed twice by clinton. After months of shutdown and pressure Clinton gave in and the insuing cuts help to balance the budget and create jobs.

Liberals talk about the surplus but its the REPs who gave it to Clinton.

What have the DEMs done?

Housing market is getting heated but Barney Franks and Co. fight to NOT regulate Freddie and Fannie and stop regulation in 2003 & 2005. You can just google or youtube it to see Frank's lies and BS.

DEMs take over Senate and Congress in 2007 and recession starts 11 months later. Bush is a lame duck president

2009 Obama + super majority for DEMs = massive debts + no budget + cash for clunkers + more spending but = 9.2% unemployment and 4 Trillion in Debt in 2.5 yrs.

Iam not a teaparty or liberal but Iam sure not voting for: larger gov't , more spending , job killing taxes , or pass the buck liberals in 2012

So Randy, can we assume you were born in 1997? Because your account of what happened in 1995/96 is completely wrong.

1. The fight was about Medicare, education, environment and public health

2. There were 2 Government shutdowns, the first, in November 1995 lasted 4 days, at which time congress enacted a temporary CR, the second in December 1996 lasted 3 weeks. The two combined do not total "Months".

3. Clinton wasn't forced into anything. The balanced budget deal was not until 1997

4. What the shut down did do was it got Clinton re-elected with wildly high favorable numbers in 1996. And it got Newt Gingrich and his contract on America booted from his speaker position when the republicans got swept in 1998.

You have to pull money away from the private sector to fund deficit spending. Cut the deficit and you will find the private sector will rebound.

I think the deficit problem is legitimate, but I don't see how cutting the deficit will help the private sector. They are basically totally different things. Private sector needs people purchasing, which means growing economy. Growing economy means more people buying, getting paid, companies making more. It is a cycle.

I am a small business owner, and most of the people I associate with are small business owners. In that group, without exception, there is a concern about the health care law, higher taxes, and lack of lending from banks.

If the government is selling 1.5T of t-bills each year, that money can not be lent to the private sector. If our debt was $1 T or even $4T I would agree that the government could provide some stimulus, but at $14 T every dollar the government spends, people intuitively understand that we are heading for a crash and so they stop spending, hiring, growing, and then the velocity of money slows to a crawl. All I want and those people who I talk with, is a plan to address entitlements and some assurity of what will happen with taxes and entitlement spending.

The rich have been making record profits throughout this recession. Tax them fairly. Close loopholes and end tax cuts. Continuing to make the poor and middle class pay for this while the rich concede nothing is unacceptable.

its not necessary to raise taxes to boost revenue, just cut out all the loopholes, and make everyone , and i mean everyone pay their fair share, even if you only make 10 k a year you still need to pay in like everyone else.

close the corporate tax loopholes. if a company takes in 4 billion in profits, why do they get away with paying NO taxes?

closing all the tax loopholes and making everyone pay in would fix about half of our money problems.

medicare and healthcare in general need a total overhaul. they dont have a prescrition drug program in mexico, just a law that says no prescrition drug can cost more than 25.00. do that and you can get rid of the unfunded medicare drug program.

i think the only way we'll get a handle on healthcare costs is to implement price controls. if we dont then things will only get more expensive and more unaffordable for everyone except the wealthy or those with a killer job benefits package.

Dangerous and american,

The rich already pay most of the income taxes. Do you really want to live in a country where 50 or 60 or 70 percent of the taxpayers don't pay any taxes, but instead receive money from the government? Why would anyone actually build a company or hire employees in your socialist Utopia?

The GE no tax story is silly. When businesses loose money, they can take a tax write off the following year. Check out what GE will pay this year. It is silly anyways because Imelt is Obama's best buddy, and many of the tax breaks are for non-economic "Green Projects".

We should definitely close all corporate tax loopholes and have a competitive international rate, so that company's can't buy special favors from their bought Senator or Congressman.

Our pharmaceutical companies carry the whole world in drug research. I agree the prices are high, but would you rather have expensive medicine or none at all?

Price controls have never, ever worked. The true solution is to stop giving a tax breaks for employee health care and make people responsible for their own health care costs.

We know why they'd want to build a company in your fascist Utopia, Americans are dim witted, because you don't want them to pay any taxes and you want to keep loopholes and incentives to reward them for outsourcing all the labor.

Fortunately Americans aren't dimwitted enough to support your bogus ideology. Pay your fair share or take your worthless trash Corporation to China where all your employees are at.

Lower business taxes only promotes job creation in one condition - when demand is high but cash is scarce to finance expansion.

The present situation is the exact opposite - corporations are holding record amounts of cash but they don't expand because there is not sufficient demand. Instead they buy back their own stock, buy out competitors, or just wait to see which way the economy will move. Lower taxes only mean more cash tucked away for future use.

No business will spend on expansion and hiring if they are already meeting demand for their product while operating below capacity.

Dangerous, you are an idiot.

I said quite clearly that corporations should pay a competitive rate. Nearly all of the job creation is from small companies anyways. Corporations are taxed twice, once at the corporation and the second time when individuals receive dividends. Just calling them big, mean and nasty, doesn't solve any problems, but you could care less about solving the problems with your simple minded retorts.

Corporations are not expanding because there is incredible uncertainty in the world, especially in the US. When consumer confidence returns, and the right track numbers go up the corporations will spend. But you want the government to tax them more and require more regulations and arbitrarily enforce health care policies. In what reverse world does that encourage companies to spend?

If the trolls from FAUX NEWS would read the downgrade itself they will take note that they specifically say that "Republicans are unwilling to discuss tax revenue",

REPEAT
If the trolls from FAUX NEWS would read the downgrade itself they will take note that they specifically say that "Republicans are unwilling to discuss tax revenue",

We've got to run Rupert Murdoch out of the country as they did in Australia and are trying to do in England

Dear Americans are dim witted,

Your arrogance and righteousness is wearing. Kindly log off.

C. W.

Your ignorance, lack of self responsiblity, and denial of the facts is wrecking the nation. Kindly get a lobotomy or cease to post.

Corporations are not taxed twice. Corporations are taxed once. The stock holders who receive the dividends as unearned income are taxed once and at a lower rate than earned income. Those rates were put in place to spur investment. At this time, I would rather see investments in the country's infrastructure than in Exxon/Mobil. Maybe the tax code could be revised to support that.

In order to solve this problem, we are going to have to change our mindset. Frankly, this deficit spending is the most selfish, evil thing I have ever witnessed. It is an evil that must be destroyed or otherwise it will destroy us.

Follow my logic on this:

* Borrowing money to pay our bills today and expecting someone else (probably someone who has not even been born) to pay the bill is just stealing. It is generational theft, and truthfully, I do not think people who have not even been born should have to pay my bills or your bills. What kind of uncaring person would think that is a good idea. Therefore, deficit spending is very selfish and immoral. It's stealing and it has to stop.

* Similarly, socialism is immoral at its core because it seeks to steal from one group (e.g. progressive taxes at the point of a gun) in order to give to another group (e.g. earned income tax credit) through government intervention. Although the intent may (or may not) be sincere and appear to be helpful to those in need, the method is still simply legalized stealing. Therefore, it is wrong; it is immoral. Take note that in the Holy Bible, there is no such thing as a progressive tithe. God expects everyone (rich and poor alike) to give one tenth. If that system is good enough for God, then it's good enough for me. Therefore, the concept of trying to stick it to people who make more than your or I do must stop. It is wrong; it is immoral; it is stealing; it must stop.

* Legalized stealing leads to corruption. Humans are by their very nature selfish and corrupt. Therefore, you should never invent a system whereby a government is given authority to take from one group to give to another. It is no more acceptable to steal from a wealthy person than it is from a poor person. Wrong is wrong. If you do not recognize that principle, then there is something dreadfully wrong inside of you; you are missing your moral compass.

* Charity belongs exclusively to the private sector. Charitable giving is not the proper function of government. I am not against charity. I believe in charity, I think you should be compassionate, and I give plenty to those who are less fortunate. However, it is simply wrong to forcibly take money from one person and give it to another. It should be my right to decide to whom I give financial help, money, gifts, etc. I do not trust government to do that for me. I would not trust anyone to make those decisions, except Jesus, and if you will recall, Jesus never forced anyone to do anything.

* You must never consume more than you produce. That's immoral unless you are disabled. Therefore, if you are able bodied, you must work if you want to eat. The harder you work, the better you eat. If you are lazy, then why should I be required to give up what I worked hard to earn to give it to someone who did nothing to earn it? A system such as this will make both of us want to quit working. What is the incentive for either to work? Eventually, this system will collapse as have all communist nations that have ever existed (e.g. USSR).

I do not expect someone else to pay my bills. To do so is immoral. I do not expect someone to get up in the morning, go to work, and work hard all day in order TO MY BILLS. That is ridiculous. I work hard everyday to provide for my family, to pay my bills and to better my life. You should do the same. Therefore, the earned income tax credit must go.

If the law takes money from me (at the point of a gun) to give my money to someone else (whether they need it or not - and by the way who gets to decide what you and I need), then that is simply a form of stealing and more bluntly is a form of slavery. Correction, it is not a form of slavery; it is slavery. Why should I be required to go to work to pay your bills? That is immoral; that is wrong.

Therefore, we need for the government to get its hand out of our pockets, our kids pockets, our future grandkids and great grandkids pockets. Politicians must stop stealing our money and buying votes with it. If this does not stop, this country will not survive.

That is the bottom line.

Dangerous mind,

The rich have been making record profits throughout this recession.

Not so. Why do you think tax collections are down so much? It's because the rich, who no matter what the idiots at MSNBC might rant, pay a larger percentage of their incomes than the poor and middle class and their incomes have taken a big hit.

Even before the recession, only about half the country was paying any income tax. It's hard to go below zero, although the Bush tax cuts did make that possible for the working poor. (Don't you just hate it when Bush did something you would otherwise approve of?)

Dim Witted we the people, with our taxes, pay for the research being done by the pharmaceutical companies. Then for them to turn around and charge us like they do (and like they are allowed to) is insanity. My feeling is that the entire medical community is a sham. I go to the doctor and get some tests and a prescription. The doctor charges X amount, the prescription costs Y amount and the insurance pays Z amount. Why don't the doctors and prescriptions cost Z in the first place? Universal health care is the only way for the greatest nation on earth to go. Oh wait...we aren't the greatest nation anymore...are we? I'm with someone else, no meds over $25. We pay for the research and they make them overseas...where's the overhead?

sfilutze, why do you feel the need to lie to make your point?

Exactly where on the S&P downgrade does it say that "Republicans are unwilling to discuss tax revenue" and that is a basis for the S&P decision?

The actual downgrade analysis, available on S&P's Website, does not contain neither the language or the implications you have stated.

people like making up crap Joe C. typical liberal no facts only crap.

Everyone needs to pay taxes to get this mess under control.

No... wait another month. Things are gonna get worse.

i am the same age you are, but am almost diametrically opposite your viewpoint. ----- you blame everything on specific politicians ---- i claim that the american people are at fault, for continually wanting more and more social programs, that we now cannot afford to maintain. ----- i saw this problem coming more than 3 decades ago, when i noticed an unpleasant trend in the birthrate demographics.

Living in a dream world, are you?

sfilutze

Good post friend. Observe the baggers buzzing around every post of yours angrily. I like how you give a long view with an understanding of history, and how the 'cuts only' approach led to the Great Depression. And all they can do is shriek irrationally that history is wrong because their BS trickle down ideology has to be right.

That's right guys, ignore history. It must have been written by the liberal media.

Seriously Dangerous, are you intellectually challenged? sfilutze has not made a single post that has any real history or numbers in it.

Reply to the facts, or get out of the room, so the adults can discuss the problem.

I agree with the original poster. The baggers don't want to hear it, but that doesn't change the fact that it is truth.

What you all do not seem to understand is that it is not the volume of dollars you get it is the purchasing power you have for your 40 hrs. week. My first car was $1500 new, today that same car would cost $24,000. Why? From my perspective they both do the same thing - get me from point a to point b. My first house cost $18k now they are going for $300k for the same square footage/construction and are not built as well as my $18k house.

What I find hilarious is that we all must work 40 hrs/week while we have 20,000,000 people unemployed. why not cut the work week to 28 hrs/week employee everyone, kick the illegals out and arrest their sponsors, and flat rate tax everyone. The companies get more productivity, unemployment is 0, people have time for their family and down time. And the resulting inflation will pay down our national debt much more rapidly (as long as government budgets are no more than the previous years total tax receipts). It would help the tourist industry and as demand increases due to more people working/contributing we would have a growing economy.

Add to that we stop being the world cop and wipe out the fraud and waste, we would be in pretty good shape in a couple of years.

It would also help if government workers were paid on par with their opposite numbers in the private sector. It cracks me up when I here during bad weather days around DC that "essential employees" must show up for work - that means by their own admission that the rest are non - essential and so begs the question why are they hired to begin with if their work is non essential?!?! Fire 2/3 of the non essential staff and they move from leaches to producers from being a part of the problem to part of the solution. DUH!

sfilutze: Spot on!

But we, the mindless, selfish anti-government bigots, the closet KKKs, we elected him. Surely you remember that. Do you really think more spending is the answer? More taxes? I think taxes should be paid by all, not just some, and at the same rate, not graduated....Do you agree? Don't you think if there are three times the people now, each should pay his/her fair share? Do you think people should be treated differently sofar as taxes are concerned? And what percent of your gross income did you pay in 2010?

Very good post! I also have been around a while and remember presidents back to Eisenhower. I have read all these post from those who are trying to convince us that this younger generation of voters has a clue.

George Bush and his administration is the biggest black eye in our history. He left us broke after spending the large surplus left by the previous administration. We are just now seeing the effects. Also, all the contracts that they entered into with defense contractors for Iran and Afghanistan are daily bleeding us dry.

Then you have the younger set, under 40 that think we can keep buying foreign made products and still create jobs here at home. I am still waiting for an answer on how purchasing everything made in China provides us with good paying jobs.

The economy is a pyramid. Without the layer of the manufacturing sectors blue collar jobs we will continue the fall.

He left us broke after spending the large surplus left by the previous administration.

There was no surplus, It was creative book keeping, Including such gimmicks as addding in SS revenues to the general account and expenditures that did not come due until after he had left office.

Then you have the younger set, under 40 that think we can keep buying foreign made products and still create jobs here at home. I am still waiting for an answer on how purchasing everything made in China provides us with good paying jobs.

Bingo, This whole downturn started with the increase in demand for lower price imported goods back in the 1950's, We (the US) went in and rebuilt countries like japan and germany, Then we allowed their products which were built using US technology but cheap foreign labor to be imported into this country, The US businesses that resisted and continued to manufacture here in the US have eventually been unable to compete, Everyone wants that cheap made in China(it used to be Japan) TV or stereo or car, They did not care that by purchasing that imported product they were putting their neighbor out of a job, Eventually you run out of neighbors able to purchase your products and you are then out of a job.

I go out of my way to buy American, It is hard but for many items it can be done, I would rather purchase a used good condition made in the US product than some piece of junk Chinese made product that the packaging lasts longer than the product it contains.

Dim Witted (your name fits) last time I checked this is America and Dangerous and Sfilutze have every right to post their opinions. Just like you do....upsetting to you isn't it?

did you know that when FDR and the democrats first passed social security, it didn't even include women or black people ??? ----- and yet, the democrats claim to be the champion of the common person. ----- social security was improperly designed, because it didn't have any mechanism for dealing with changes in birthrates, and it was never intended to be more than a bare-bones, last resort income for older people.

No, they don't just rely on Faux and Rush. Now they can officially read WSJ for economic news because Rupert owns it.

This may come as a shock to you, Ron, but did you know that in the 1930s, the southern states had segregation and Jim Crow laws? Believe it or not, southern lawmakers wouldn't sign a bill extending those things to black people. That might be why it had to get passed like that...

When I read many of the idiotic posters here - it's a surprise we still exist at all.

It now becomes clearer why our government is so screwed up - look who they represent.

Traffic Fanatic you NAILED it! Some days I think the entire combined IQ of America totals the number of congressmen (535) and that is graded on a curve using new math.

sfilutze, you lied when you stated that S&P specifically stated their downgrade was related to "Republicans are unwilling to discuss tax revenue." The S&P downgrade report is available at Please show us the statement you quoted.

That you told one bold-faced lie leaves us open to the fact that you lie about other things as well.

It's not a bold faced lie Joe. You might want to re-read the report. That assumes you actually read it in the first place. It does Specifically talk about republicans refusing to raise revenues. It also talks about the debt ceiling being used a political bargaining chip. Gee, who was it that did that?

washingtonexaminer.com/politics/2011/08/after-us-downgrade-liberals-attack-messenger#ixzz1XqKn2i20

"""There's no doubt that S&P's rationale for the downgrade is subjective; much of the report reads like political punditry. On the other hand, S&P's assessment is based on a reasonable reading of trends in deficit spending that even administration officials admit are unsustainable. The bottom line of the report seems to be this: S&P's analysts doubt that all of the spending cuts in the recent debt-ceiling deal will actually take effect. And even if all those cuts do take effect, they would not be enough for the credit agency to restore the U.S. to its former AAA rating. And even if the Bush tax cuts on higher earners were allowed to expire, that would not be enough for a restored AAA rating without more spending cuts and taxes. And if none of the second round of cuts built into the debt deal actually occur, the U.S. rating could fall again to AA."""""

That's what a majority of Americans, left and right, polled during the debt ceiling debate.

I thought the Tea Party represented the American people. At least they always harp on and on how they do. But not when it goes against their corporate interests I guess. It's a myth the majority wants a cuts only approach.

A myth perpetuated by the Republicans for the "Job Creators." I find it interesting the job creators have has this tax break for years and where are the jobs this break has created?

The BIG SECRET is that we need ecomomic growth - and it is not there. People are not spending (and don't have it) and when they do it is not on US goods.

To cut debt, you have to cut spending AND raise revenues

I disagree. If you recklessly spend and spend, maxing out your credit card, you have no choice but to quit spending and begin to pay it down. How will you increase your revenue at the same time? Your employer will not automatically "increase your pay" when you are debt ridden. You must control your budget and live within your means.

Obama has almost doubled the size of government payroll and thrown trillions at programs that did not work. He also allowed Departments like SEC, FDA, EPA to make regulating decisions that should be decided by our people elected Congress. He has an ANTI-BUSINESS agenda that has driven American businesses out of the country, so there is MUCH less private sector cash going into the Federal coffers. In other words the TAX PRODUCING JOBS, are being replaced by JOBS PRODUCED/PAID BY TAXES (public/govt jobs)

INDIANA resisted Union demands and now has a surplus. They did NOT raise taxes, they cut spending!!! You see, as 50% of this country now does not contribute to federal taxes, does NOT pay federal taxes, they love to dictate to those who are funding their entitlements, as it will not affect them. They also expect those who are earning their money to give up their assets as well. If they are receiving their subsidized government check that they have not earned, they have little concern about taxes...and a great concern about methods to continue their free government money.

HOOSIERS SHOW HOW IT'S DONE: INDIANA POSTS A SURPLUS , DEMS UNHAPPY

//www.theblaze.com/stories/hoosiers-show-how-its-done-indiana-posts-a-surplus-and-dems-are-unhappy/

Graph Suggests Obama Doubles Size of Government

//www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2010/09/gop-graph-suggests-obama-doubled-the-size-of-government/63490/

GOVERNMENT JOBS: Bloated Pay, Benefits, Cost Us ALL from USA Today

//www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/2010-07-07-column07_ST1_N.htm

Federal Workers Salaries $150,000 PLUS Doubles ON OBAMA's WATCH

//www.theblaze.com/stories/federal-worker-salaries-of-150000-double-on-obamas-watch/

I can walk and chew gum!

I like your post. You include most points but "let go, let God" is the big point you make. You say "how about we cut back on defense." What you are saying is how about we cut back on nosing into everybody's business and stick to our own. You are an honest patriotic person and you shouldn't worry. Until the rapture you are going to be OK.

Observe. In the aftermath of all of their efforts they will attempt to shift credit for their destructive actions on to Obama.

It's been the Stated plan all along. Their number one goal was to get rid of Obama, even at the cost of the economy and the common good. Treasonous is right.

you mean, like how democrats shift all their own failings onto the bush administration ?? ------ as an independent, i have noticed that members of both parties are very proficient at that. ---- to wit, blaming everyone for their problems except themselves, like little kids blaming their siblings.

Ronpaul: for good reason supported by facts.

You two need to start the Dumb as a Stump Party.

Do facts and reality scare you? Crawl under your favorite blanket and keep telling yourselves, "It's the big bad scary Tea Partiers that have wrecked my life, the government is here to help me." "All I have to do is click my heels three times, and say the rich will pay, the rich will pay, the rich will pay, and I can have everything I want.

jessie, not that it's super important, but is there some reason you were unable to correctly spell my name ???

As long as you find you must hector (e.g., "tea-bagger", "bagger", "repug") in your posts no-one will look past the hectoring and see whether you provide any insight.

In my book Dim Witted the teabaggers are a nonentity. The only right thing that has come from them is that business as usual in DC was interrupted and they did what no one has been able to do in a long time...activate the people.

LOL....are you serious? You don't think this may have to do with the lame duck presisdent and his horrible administration? Obama has done nothing but Spend us into oblivion.....$800 billion in Stimulus....what has it done????? were are the jobs? did it do any good? oh, and then he now wants to tax companies more----more! Well guess what, those companies are where we get our jobs, job creation pays taxes--not very hard to figure this out! If they are heavlity taxed do you think they hire more people??

We are turning into a bunch of socialist hippies like Europe. Take a look at how they're doing.......pretty crappy

Sometimes compromise doesn't work. Like "a little drunk" as opposed to "roaring drunk" or a little increase in taxes or taxing more as opposed to no increases. For better or worse the people were elected because they said they would not allow new taxes. Yak at the ones who elected them.

I agree with your overall assessment. However, the trickle out problem has to be solved. Too much money leaves this country due to our trade imbalance. As long as our economy leaks money, the government will need to print new money to reflate the money supply and avoid a deflationary tailspin. And as long as the government is printing money, debt will continue to accumulate. We must either fix our trade imbalance, or return to a gold standard which would simply force the trade imbalannce to be fixed.

What percentage of the US government spending goes to the entitlements you are speaking of? And please don't include Social Security and Medicare. Those programs are not handouts - the are forced retirement programs you may not agree with, but they are not entitlements.

And quite frankly, government spending on welfare programs, however misguided it might be, can't be the cause of the problems we face. That money continues to circulate within the economy. This is basic economic theory - money circulates and even when the government poorly allocates money, if it is still circulating things won't get bad.

The real problem is that the US economy is constantly receding - and has been for over 50 years. As jobs exit the country and more and more imports pour in, the economy is drained of wealth. The solution, since 1971, has been to simply print more money. That fiat currency has led to enormous debt - which is now $57 trillion. Our economy is collapsing primarily because we have used debt as a band aid to our trade imbalance for decades instead of really fixing the problem.

I hope you recall that when GW was president, his main goal was to turn this country into a service economy. That is when manufactoring jobs started leaving in a big way. Even the call centers have been transferred overseas.They only care about the bottom line and leave the American people in dire straits. I mean the politicians and the corporations. I also want to say thank you for nor resorting to name-calling tonight. It's very refreshing to read information that I did not fully understand.

Yeah, you know what "service economy" is turning into? Jobs where you get to say over and over "You want fries with that?" or "Welcome to Wal-Mart."

I noticed one poster does not think Social Security is an entitlement nor is Medicare. If they are not entitlements why are they not fiscally sound? One reason is the amount of money we contribute to those benefits is not near enough to pay them. General revenues are needed to help fund the program. Never mind the monies that were supposed to be put in a "lock box" and not used for the general funding of programs; those dollars were spent as soon as Congress find a way to pass another spending resolution.

While many whine about the Republicans not wanting higher taxes...can you blame them. Congress not only spends whatever we send in they waste more money then any other big corporation I know.

Someone said Washington DC takes in revenues equal to what we took in around 1950 yet we have more roads, schools and other infrastructure. Unfortunately, moronic posts like that take advantage of the uninformed. We take in way more money than 1950 and spend way to much money propping up people that should do things for themselves. Healthcare, retirement, disability and death. These should not be functions of the government but the private sector; everyone cannot own a house or drive a Mercedes and or have a second home in the Bahamas like your Representative Charlie Rangle.

We would have money if it was just saved for Social Security not Welfare and borrow by the government to pay bills.

What percentage of the US government spending goes to the entitlements you are speaking of?

Here is a sample of our hard earned tax dollar giveaway. Illegal Immigrants, NON-CITIZENS, received 4.2 BILLION in REFUNDABLE TAX CREDITS LAST YEAR....THE EARNED INCOME CREDITS! That means, money recieved as a bonus without paying anything in...like non-working illegals filing a return and receiving at least $1000 for each child. Mind you, this is NOT excess that they paid in, THIS IS HANDOUTS. This is almost a HALF TRILLION DOLLARS. This does NOT include any welfare amount they get for the year, or medical care, housing, etc etc etc!!! I would say our illegal population enjoys a couple trillion in benefits from the taxpaying portion of the population. And then you have actual citizens receiving the EARNED INCOME CREDITS, welfare, bridge cards medicaide, housing, sitter, heat, rent, etc etc etc. Just how much do you think that adds to the debt burden? If the illegals are costing a couple trillion, then the welfare citizens are costing at least that much.

I hear all the time that "welfare isn't THAT much of a percentage of budget" but EVERY DEBT SOURCE COUNTS when you are going bankrupt. And I don't think that a couple trillion is a PALTRY SUM. EVERY ONE on the dole is denying they cost the taxpayer anything. And dont you think for a minute that all our tax money illegals receive from us is circulated in this country. WE ALL know that a great portion is sent BACK TO THEIR HOMELAND.

And quite frankly, government spending on welfare programs, however misguided it might be, can't be the cause of the problems we face.

Yes, those receiving something for nothing will deny, deny, deny that it doesn't cost that much. But when you have a dwinding worker/contributor poplulation, pretty soon there are more leeches than workers.

Undocumented workers got billions from IRS in tax credits, audit finds

//www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/federal-eye/post/undocumented-workers-got-billions-from-irs-in-tax-credits-audit-finds/2011/03/23/gIQAhtaKvJ_blog.html?hpid=z3

"""The disconcerting findings in this report demand immediate attention and action from Congress and the Obama Administration," Hatch said in a statement.. "With our debt standing at over $14.5 trillion and counting, it's outrageous that the IRS is handing out refundable tax credits...to those who aren't even eligible to work in this country."

Would you prefer a dictatorship? If so, you already have one in place who would jump at the opportunity. Do you believe the Little Dictator would be better than what you have? If you prefer him, you are not thinking of a better way to govern the country; you are deficient in the logic and reasoning department and have ulterior motives.

Where exactly did I ask for a dictatorship? I am asking a serious question. I don't think that we should have political parties at all. Individuals should run on their own ideas - instead of some party ideology. Individuals should win or lose based on their own performance during the elections. Individuals should not have corrupt party machines controlling how they are elected, and when they win, how they vote in Congress. Our constitution reads "We the People..." We need to get back to that. It isn't "We the two political parties..." and nor is it "We the special interests..." Right now "We the People..." is a meaningless utopian view from 200 years ago.

Every time we try to change the system like the voters did in 2010, we get nightmare scenarios, but I refuse to give up. I love this country. We need to throw those corporate shysters out of government and start over. We need more senators and reps who know how to compromise. Getting all the lawyers out would be a good start. Fox News needs to go . Roger Ailes is a propagandist that is destroying the fabric of America and keeping us distracted with nonsense.

Dreeves

LOL...I remember people saying the same thing about Ted Turner and CNN...

Censorship and limiting POV are not the issue, no matter what people say...

When will people realize that obama and his cronies need to go, including all the democrats, all the repubs and the fed dissolved, then what will leader bernake say uh I mean obama, its way past impeachment time, all seats wiped out, and the newly formed group only get one term, that way they cant do like obama is doing today for the country, he's doing nothing but riding around town in a bus we are footing the gas for so he can get re-elected over a year from now WTF obummer, meanwhile washington tanks along with the rest of the world, but his biggest interest is re-election, how fitting for a failure, seems the motivational speakers run outta fancy words

joegintn: When will people realize that this has nothing to to with the current administration and everything to do with the GOP, the tea party, and their agenda to unseat Obama at any cost. In this case, the cost will be the American middle class! This is the worst example of leadership and teamwork that I have ever witnessed. If I had behaved like this when I was working in the business world, I would have been fired on the spot!

Anyone who believes as you do is part of the problem, not part of the solution. In order to correct this mess that was decades in the making...see the movie "Inside Job" if you want a clue, our leaders in Washington needed to come to the table with a mindset that they were going to do whatever it took to work through this debt crisis and put America back on the road to prosperity. Instead, they continued to play their gamesmanship, and dig us into an even deeper hole. Now the American people, once again, have to suffer through this latest crash in the markets, losing even more of our meager retirement.

If you want to know how the majority of people feel about this recent debacle on the hill, just look at the polls taken about who is at fault. People are not blaming just the Obama administration, they are blaming everyone on the hill that had a duty to do the right thing for America, and sold us down the river once again for their personal agendas.

I don't know the answer, but something is going to have to change quickly or we are doomed. By change I don't mean an election that puts the Republican party back in leadership. That will be yet another mistake, same as the 2010 elections that put these tea party jokers in office to do the further damage that they have done to our economy!

I happen to agree with Standard & Poors....our government is broken, and until we have a complete overhaul, there is no hope for us to retain our stellar position in the world market.

Obama screwed us ... all becuase he had to feed his ego ... all at our expense ...

I like where this is going.... I hope more Americans wake up and realize they aren't democrats, independents, republicans, libertarians, etc. They are AMERICANS! There is no such thing as one political party having all the answers for this nation. We do not have proper representation anymore.