This is what happens when a banking system takes over a government.
Taxes and spending cuts, those are really sideshows, distractions to the real game that's being played. The banksters have us arguing amongst ourselves, while they continue to inflate our money and loot our country.
The Federal Reserve and the fractional reserve banking system has had its time, and now it must end.
Alan, I think you are confused. First you say you want a flat tax, then you describe a progressive tax system. You might want to get that straightened out.
I agree with you that everyone needs to pay taxes, and that exemptions need to be reduced or eliminated. A 25% flat tax in conjunction with this would probably go a long ways towards solving our economic woes, and it would be fair.
stonegarden -- A flat tax on wages is NOT fair. Wages are not the same for everyone. Wages are not fair - why should taxes be fair.
But let's take your idea to another level of fairness - 25% tax on wages AND dividends AND capital gains. That would be 25% on ALL income. All taxed the same - ain't that fair?
This was to be expected and is far better than the downgrade we would have received if we had defaulted on our debt.
It is the fault of all parties involved, including those who voted for these turkeys !!! We are in desperate need of a viable third party, one that puts the good of the nation ahead of their political agenda !!!
I don't mind giving up the twenty dollar tax cut that I received from the Bush tax cuts. I would even give them a rebate on it for the last ten years. Any No Tax and Spend Republicans care to do the same for their Tax Cut??
amazing this downgrade is all due to the US inability to raise revenues (increase corporate taxes) and refusing to cut defense contractor spending (850 billion this year an increase 0f 15 percent). Yet these people in congress dont get it, even if they were able to convince the few feeble and without a clue constituents of no tax increase, the global investors are still asking the US to "show them the money' which the USA is unable to do, due to the childish beliefs that taxes are evil
Time to grow the F up already
So why aren't roughly 50% of Americans paying federal income tax?
42% of working age Americans are unemployed.
10% approximately, of those lucky enough to have a job make minimum wage or less.
Now if you are done demonizing the less fortunate answer me this. Why are you so passionate about making the poor pay more and unconcerned about the very wealthy who pay much less than they traditionally have while making MUCH more than they traditionally have? 75% of corporations pay no federal income tax. How many of the wealthy (whom you will likely claim pay most of the taxes) in fact pay little or no federal income taxes?
You "conservatives" are a strange bunch. If the national debt were a bloodbank running low on reserves you would all be offering turnips and patting yourselves on the backs for being so charitable.
I won't quit complaining until we have leaders better than the idiots who lost 400 MILLION In desperately needed revenue to "save" 16 million and further f**ked up the economy with an asinine show surrounding raising the debt ceiling I've served our nation in combat for my right to vote, and I dare anyone to try and stop me !! Our two parties are essentially worthless in their current form, and I'll be damned if I won't speak out about it and vote to change the status quo !!
tommymaybewrongmayberight
75% of corporations pay ZERO federal income taxes! How much are you suggesting we pay them in the hopes they will create jobs in the United States? Many of the countries these corporations are shipping their jobs to have much higher effective tax rates so looks like you are wrong this time. There is something those countries are offering though... no regulations and slave wages... are you so willing to poison the environment and work for a dollar or two per day?
Wrong our tax rate is the lowest in the world along with the highest subsidies.
Heres an idea. We gave the wall street firms banks and oil a stimulous. JUST GAVE the cash. A handout. That didn't work. Now tea bagging republicans give them cuts to our government. Killing jobs and downgrading us like I said would happen despite everyone telling you and me it wouldn't. That hasn't worked. What next?
All of our food on the alter of wall street praying for jobs like Rick perry in "black rain".? Or was that Michael Douglas? huh.. Is that gonna work? NOPE!
Why don't you all [and that means YOU B.] listen to me for a change. You can go back through my time dated blogs and see that I have known and know everything that will happen and how to avert it.
Or are you simply gonna hand over whats left of our land to hillbilly numskulls? Hmmm? Think about it. Think about it.. ; ]
Cheers
Here's a great chart showing government spending as a % of GDP since 1900:
Note that spending FELL in the decade leading up to the Great Depression.
Also note the rise from when Bill Clinton left office to when George W. Bush left office.
And finally, note the decline since Obama took office.
Interesting. And also completely the wrong thing for the government to have done since 2009.
Bush tax cuts went to the rich
Thursday 2 June 2011
From the Economic Policy Institute:
Ten years after their enactment, the Bush tax cuts remain expensive, ineffective, and unfair. As outlined in a new EPI policy memo, the Bush-era tax changes conferred disproportionate benefits to those at the top of the earnings distribution, exacerbating a trend of widening income inequality at a time of already poor wage growth.
A distributional analysis of the 2001-08 tax changes shows that the top 1% of earners (making over $620,442) received 38% of the tax cuts. The lower 60% of filers (making less than $67,715) received less than 20% of the total benefit of Bush's tax policies.
If you'd rather see pictures than read, here's the chart:
Over 1/3rd of the Bush Tax Cuts went to the top 1% of earners
free trade allows corporations to export jobs to cheaper labor markets.tariffs make it more profitable to hire americans.over 3 million jobs in manufacturing have been lost to free trade/job exporting not to mention all the support jobs that go with it.corporations number one priority is keeping free trade/job exporting.it allows them to cut their biggest expense american labor by 90 percent and pocket the difference
Between subsidies to produce overseas and the loophole of closing a business corporations like GE actually received a tax refund
But by taking advantage of myriad breaks and loopholes that other countries generally do not offer, United States corporations pay only slightly more on average than their counterparts in other industrial countries. And some American corporations use aggressive strategies to pay less — often far less — than their competitors abroad and at home. A Government Accountability Office study released in 2008 found that 55 percent of United States companies paid no federal income taxes during at least one year in a seven-year period it studied.
excerpt from NY Times 2011/05/03
Plus from personal experience working in the corporate world where I actually seen trucks loaded a day before the end of the quarter and the company sold the equipment to their parent company (US though company was owned by a European industry) at a false lost. after the quarter was tallied both the parent company and entity of the parent company were entitled to the purchase break from buying and the entity a loss on their taxes. Only for the same truck(trailer0 to unload never leaving the loading dock the day after the fiscal quarter.
hoping this isnt confusing, but after 30 plus years having to deal with corporations one sees and learns their tricks. I would hope those who do not know or understand how a corporation rapes the US subsidies and loopholes to avoid taxes on assets would study and research for themselves, if not they should not arbitrarily add input into a subject they know nothing about other then some sound bites they hear
Notice how none of the options you can choose from in this poll are from the private sector like "Wall Street" or "Corporations"?
Not that Republicans, congress, Democrats, etc aren't guilty but they are working for those I mentioned above. That's who subsidizes their political careers and who lobby them.
It's a complete LIE to say that 50% of all Americans don't pay taxes.
The federal government's sources of revenues come from INCOME taxes, PAYROLL taxes, CORPORATE taxes, EXCISE taxes and a few others.
40% of ALL FEDERAL REVENUES now come from PAYROLL TAXES. Payroll taxes are only paid by working people making less that $102k a year.
U.S. Federal Tax Receipts - Fiscal Year 2010
Sources of federal revenue, Fiscal 1950-2008
The Heritage Foundation (where you obviously get your information) skews its facts by including only INCOME taxes, which now account for only 42% of ALL FEDERAL REVENUES.
And corporate taxes? They're only 9%! Do you really think corporations in America only make 9% of the income? (They added 28% to federal revenues in 1950's and 21% in the 1960's.)
Quit bitching about poor people and go get back some of that $1.9 TRILLION in cash corporations are hoarding from the American economy.
@Arch Stanton
Thanks for the reminder. Sometimes it is easy to forget just what entities are really running the show, isn't it?
If we just instituted a 30% tax on the cost of American corporations' overseas call centers we'd sure see a whole lot of American jobs in no time.
And, as a bonus, we'd get to talk to customer service reps who speak English!
The US EFFECTIVE corporate tax rate is only about 17%. After all those write-offs, deductions, "production credits" and so on that we (the taxpayers) provide to them.
In its Paying Taxes 2009 publication, based on its 2009 Doing Business report, the World Bank-International Finance Corp. estimated that the United States has a lower effective rate of current corporate tax than that of several other nations, including Germany, Canada, India, China, Brazil, Japan, and Italy. The publication also included a figure that compared effective and statutory corporate tax rates for several G-8 and BRIC [Brazil, Russia, India, China] countries:
Effective rate of current corporation tax vs statutory rate for G8 and BRIC countries
We're nowhere NEAR the highest in the world. Many countries who are currently kicking our a$$ economically have much higher effective (meaning ACTUAL) corporate tax rates.
That's why sh$t like this happens:
ExxonMobil, despite recording more than $15 billion in income taxes, paid none of its 2009 income taxes in the U.S.
What the financial statement says is that ExxonMobil, in 2009, after a handful of deferrals, recorded a total U.S. income tax benefit (i.e., a refund) of $46 million. Next to this, it shows total non-U.S. income taxes of $15.165 billion.
Forbes - What the Top U.S. Companies Pay in Taxes
How many working Americans did it take to make that refund for Exxon?
In any even half-way sane world why would any country let a private, for profit, business decide how good or bad their credit rating should be? The ratings agencies are at best incompetent and at worst criminal. They gave Triple A ratings to toxic securities based on sub-prime mortgages which caused the crash in 2008 and recession in the first place (The deficit was not created by reckless public spending, it was caused by the crash and recession).
Now the elites of both business and politics are using the deficit as a way to attack and destroy Social Security, Medicare, health, environmental and safety regulation, unions, labor laws etc. The foundation of our once large and prosperous middle class.
It's been building for years, at least since the late 1970's, but now I think the American people and the land itself, are under full scale attack by corporations and the financial aristocracy and our political leadership of both parties, (and the media) are quislings.
Thomas Jefferson said it well:
I hope that we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country. (Thomas Jefferson, in 1816, quoted in Lawrence Goodwyn, The Populist Moment).
How many working Americans did it take to make that refund for Exxon?
exactly and also how much was taken from the Social Security Trust to give Exxon and GE these giant rebates???
Americans have been paying too long, too much and now are being forced to sacrifice what little we have left to pay for corporations and industries whose loyalty is not to the USA, nor their shareholders(investors) but only the upper brass to insure they will receive billions in bonuses. Ding so by lies cheating and misinforming investors while having the US government prop them up with american workers money.
Why the downgrade? once again even the investors are wise to these corporations games and tactics in showing false assets and revenue.
These anti corporate tax people will be the death of America as we know it, and when this happens these same corporations will move and or dissolve and reemerge overseas, while these anti tax people are holding the bag still looking to blame something else for these leech corporations moving.
Raising taxes and cutting subsidies for corporations is the only way to regain investor confidence,
****Note: The post above quoted an article by Fredrick Thayer that was written around 1996.
RealAmericansFirst and usa1: Wow. It's amazing how when you start putting real numbers (and pictures) to things, the Fox Propaganda crowd slinks away back to their rocks. I'd call this thread a knockout in the second. I don't even have any cavalier remarks to add with a little smirk. Absolutely fantastic analysis and rebuttal of the fool remarks that started this line. My hat's off to you both.
I like the Dems. I find them to be capital and rather adult like. BUT and its your wife's awfully big but, what did they do to stop it? I would say I am quite disappointed in them. BUt know that in THIS equation the only non constant are the tea baggers. Obama got along with the democrat congress.
The economy started to rebound. Under Bush the two sides compromised often. BUT under Obama in comes the tea baggers and everything goes to you know what before they go on vacation. That is irrefutable logical evidence that the tea bagging republicans are clearly to blame. In any mathematical equation they are to blame. ; ]
Cheers
The problem is that half of the taxpayers pay nothing
If they are paying nothing, they aren't paying tax so can't be called taxpayers.
However, I agree that EVERYONE needs to pay taxes and ANYONE who does not should not get a refund - ie EIC.
How many working Americans did it take to make that refund for Exxon?
exactly and also how much was taken from the Social Security Trust to give Exxon and GE these giant rebates???
Americans have been paying too long, too much and now are being forced to sacrifice what little we have left to pay for corporations and industries whose loyalty is not to the USA, nor their shareholders(investors) but only the upper brass to insure they will receive billions in bonuses. Ding so by lies cheating and misinforming investors while having the US government prop them up with american workers money.
Why the downgrade? once again even the investors are wise to these corporations games and tactics in showing false assets and revenue.
USA1 - you're making a lot of great points on this seed.
Do you have any recommendations as to what we can do?
We have the Tea Party who apparently likes tax breaks for rich people or giving refunds to Exxon as you point out.
Given the current political climate, which candidate can rise out of this dust and balance these two objectives? - one is lowering business taxes and the other is cutting the middle class some slack.
Just to clarify, this is the same S&P that gave a 3-star rating to all the banks loaded with mortgage derivatives, no? I guess the Democrats are right, financial institutions are running this country if S&P decides to make a political statement as opposed to providing an impartial service. I say this country needs to get it's debt under control and companies need to find somewhere other than S&P for credit risk analysis.
Wasn't it liberal progressivism that kept millions from starving during the Great Depression? Wasn't it liberal progressivism that oversaw the largest growth in the middle class ever?
It isn't God's guidance that is needed here; it's historical knowledge, and a liberal progressive with some stones.
What is it with these posts about "Barack Hussein" or "Barack Hussein Obama?" Did you ever refer to "George Walker Bush" or "William Jefferson Clinton" or "George Herbert Walker Bush" or "Lyndon Baines Johnson?" I don't particularly care whether you like him or not, but, oops, your racism and religious and ethnic intolerance are showing.
I agree, The Obama Extension of Bush Tax Cuts of 2010 could be part of the problem.
Ken-2013079
I don't mind giving up the twenty dollar tax cut that I received from the Bush tax cuts. I would even give them a rebate on it for the last ten years. Any No Tax and Spend Republicans care to do the same for their Tax Cut??
Ken, I am a conservative republican and proud of it. I would glady give up any tax cut that I have gotten. If EVERYBODY paid taxes like they should have instead of just getting free money in their pocket it wouldn't be so bad. I also believe in fairly taxing the rich. I remember turning on the tv and Whoopie was on with the girls (the view, what a nasty show) said that she already pays 50% of her income to taxes. Apparently if this is true, which I am sure it is, I think she pays enough of her money to taxes. I usually don't listen to these harpies but Whoopie is pretty much on an even keel with everything. But I do know that these rich companies get tax breaks and it should be stopped. Now if they want to open up factories here in the United States then give them a tax credit for that but if they send the manufacturing jobs out of the country then tax the heck out of them. My hat is off to Ford for opening up another factory in KY. Yeah Go Ford!!!!
My next vehicle will be a Ford just to support them in their efforts of hiring AMERICANS!
After watching the fiasco on the debt ceiling, most of us would have lowered our own credit rating just knowing we have set ourselves up for many future hostage negotiations... the hostages being us.
And, as anyone in the corporate world understands, the S&P downgrade rationale and analysis is strictly about debt servicing from an accoutant's point of view and should not be used directly as a prescription for resolution. NO business does this... nor should our government. They are better than most about stating the financial magnitude, but not necessarily good at realizing the doable business solutions to the problems.
That said, Washington should listen hard. We want a balanced solution. We know that before Bush we had 1) a balanced budget, 2) known fixable fiscal issues with Social Security, and 3) serious issues with Medicare and health care costs in general.
We need to CREATE JOBS to recover the economy and service the debt and we need real solutions to Social Security and Medicare.
But what we really need is our legislature branch to show us they can work together and have a plan so we can start getting back the first shred of confidence as consumers. THAT is what is truly missing from all these solutions. For until WE have confidence in our financial community and governance process, no stimulus or tax cut or other trickery will make one damn difference.
The names "Walker" or "Jefferson" do not and would never be used to conjure up images of Saddam Hussein or, by extension, anyone we consider the enemy. Don't be disingenuous. There is nothing benign about choosing to use and emphasize Obama's middle name other than to associate him with someone considered an enemy, an inferior and inhuman - and non-christian to boot.
Outstanding comment Anita!!! America has been very bigoted with this President, and yet never said hoot during the many errors committed by the Gestapos Bush and Chaney "Reign of Terror", who pardoned their own war crimes in one of the last legislation bills during Bush's final days in office.
To give you a perfect example of how Republicans lie and twist the facts, Read this statement from the article:
"Republican presidential candidate Tim Pawlenty, former Minnesota governor, said the downgrade is "a reflection of the failed leadership of President Obama. He really is inept when it comes to the economy. He's had over three years of being president. Barack Obama has had his chance and it's not working."
Either he is ignorant in the math Dept., or he is a flaming liar. Either way Pawlenty needs to redo his math again!! But then this is so typical of the Rethuglicans when it comes to twisting the facts. And now Republicans are saying that they did this for us, because this is what we wanted. Oh please, give me a break! Since when during the past 10 or more years has Congress done anything for us???? Now it's time for the Trolls to come!! Republicans are offended by the truth and just won't hear or face the facts.
This what happens when the GOP plays political games and can't work with the current administration, did anyone think that would not have a negative effect on our rating.
FedupwithFed - that is the just about the most ridiculous thing I have ever read. Next time you get an email from that friend, consider just deleting it.
What makes these morons think the downgrade was made on a mistake of monetary value, when we all can see that the government is dysfunctional and that in it's self makes the downgrade correct, hell I would have downgrade it more, makes me wonder what the world thinks of us now, extortion to get a favorable out come to the RICH, not honoring entitlements and taking from Grandma and Grandpa so the RICH can keep getting their tax cuts, the list goes on and on, so don't act surprised right now the world is watching the collapse of the greatest Nation on earth over greed and politics ....
The financial markets and rating agencies don't care if we are dysfunctional or if we favor one group over another. They only care to have absolute confidence that if they lend us money, they will get their money back with interest. The antics of the congress for the past month especially has given them solid reason to question whether that is so. When they are dealing with a government which has shown itself to be at the mercy of a group of people who think not paying our bills wouldn't be such a bad thing, then they are going to have slightly less confidence.
If we just instituted a 30% tax on the cost of American corporations' overseas call centers we'd sure see a whole lot of American jobs in no time.
In fact, that little move is biting corporations in the a$$. As demand increases and wages rise in countries like India, it's actually starting to cost them MORE for the jobs they outsourced. And I say, they got what they deserve. But until the tax credit for outsourcing jobs is eliminated, it won't stop.
Just think about what has happened and ask yourself if this was a poly to raise the interest fee rates for the greedy big businesses profits (i.e. mortgage companies, gas, banks, credit cards, etc.) Then ask yourself who benefits from this downgrade and who is actually hurt by it. And finally, ask yourself, could this be a political party ploy to benefit them in this i next election.
At least they can say that they are good at arguing without compensating on any thing as-well-as always saying, "NO".
To FedupwithFed:
There's an old saying: "What goes around, tends to come back around". I sure hope you are financially well off if ever a serious disease should come your way. Big business will be very happy to present you with a big bill.
Haven't read the article yet. Wanted to "speak first" then [maybe I will~~maybe I won't] take a little look-sie.
Node on the Vine (prohb#1501) a.k.a. "The Mother Load" (BS, that is)
Oxymoron: Glorified "Accountant"/ Lawyer. Lawyering and Accountability?
I pledge Allegience to the Money
of the United Corporations of America
and to the Stockholders for which they stand
One Market, under Greed, unregulated,
With Abundance and Profits for few.
Feel a migraine coming on!!!!!!!!!!!! Got some subsidies for relief, though. Phew!
Political Clean Slate: If you were in office in 2000- "GET% OUT!!!" (Reps & Dems)
Your contention that this is all on Obama's shoulders would be true if it weren't for the "block, blame, block, blame, then repeat" strategy by this GOP. They have but one goal, and that is to "make Obama fail". And you won't convince many of us that the GOP hasn't already calculated a default as a win in their column... and that they are absolutely willing to make that happen if it means winning the next election.
We were here during the history you are quoting. We saw what happened. You revising it doesn't change it except maybe in your own mind.
Washington, DC is a force unto itself. Within this priviliged compound echoes their rally, 'of the Political Class, by the Political Class,
We are headed for a cataclysmic Depression. Announcements of major layoffs are filling the free media headlines:
US Postal Service announces 7,500 job cuts
HP announces 9,000 job cuts
Goldman Sachs announces 1,000 job cuts
FedEx (doubles profits) announces 1,700 job cuts
BlackBerry announces 2,000 job cuts
SeaWorld announces 350 job cuts
Boston Scientific (World Wide) announces 1,400 job cuts
HSBC (ytd bank profits of 11.5 billion $$$) announces 25,000 job cuts
USB (bank) announces 5,000 job cuts
RIM announces 2,000 job cuts
Merck announces 12, 000 to 13,000 job cuts
Cisco announces 6,500 job cuts
This is just the tip of the iceberg. Other great news for Americans, Ford Motor Company is investing over a billion of their profits (our American dollars) in the construction of a new manufacturing plant in India that should be completed by 2014.
Is this the same FORD company you are talking about Rdixie?
Maybe this will get the republican party's attention, but I doubt it very much. They refused to compromise on increasing revenues, even though 70 percent of the American people were for it. Now the American people will be stuck with the bill for this. This is without a doubt, the worst congress that I can ever remember. Not only are they not looking out for what is best for the American people, but it seems that they are intent on harming the American people on purpose.
Another republican manufactured crisis.
S&P is owned by these guys:
Which is run by CEO Terry McGraw. Who is riddled in scandal over the market collapse of 2008, among other things:
http://pra-blog.blogspot.com/2008/08/terry-mcgraws-problems-at-s.html
He also happens to be one of Mitt Romney's major campaign contributors.
Norquist and his "Young Turds" TEAbag members and their TERRORIST reprehensible behavior of holding the US Government debt ceiling HOSTAGE in order to serve their own greedy agenda are DIRECTLY & SOLELY RESPONSIBLE for this CRIME against The People of The United States of America!
I blame both parties and all of us voters that keep electing people based on how much they will give us for "free". As a society we need to start paying our bills. If we want better health care, fine - but let's pay for it today and stop borrowing from our grandchildren.
As an example, over the next 10 years Medicare receipts are expected to be a bit over 2 trillion, but the cost is expected to be over 6 trillion. We need to cut benefits, raise the medicare tax, or a combination of the 2. What we should not do is borrow another 4 trillion from future generations - which is what we have been doing for decades.
"I find it to be incredibly troubling from a ratings agency with a very terrible history in the last three years of its ability to quantify risk."
Indeed. Perhaps some Congressional investigations of S & P's role in giving a AAA Rating to the sub-prime mortgages, which was at the heart of the housing collapse, would be a nice 'payback' to S & P. I would think that they should be held financially liable by the investors for their investment losses, when they depended on those AAA Ratings for their investment decisions. It seems like the 'pot calling the kettle black' - and please, that was not a 'racist' comment.
S&P's statement about the downgrade was political in nature, not financial. This is the same S&P that gave AAA ratings to mortgage-backed securities that mostly consisted of sub-prime mortgages.
They have almost zero credibility, and hopefully the world financial markets will see it that way too come Monday morning.
I had to do a little research on this one. S & P traces it's history back to 1860 and has been in it's current form since 1941. Had it been in it's current form in 1929, it'd have tore the US credit rating to shreds. Their stated reasons for the downgrade are a rising debt burden and the political risks. Can anyone dispute that we have a rising debt burden? Can anyone dispute that we are a political system at work? This doesn't include our 14.4 trillion current debt. This is a classic you don't like the message so you attack the messenger. Moodys and Fitch have given the US some time and assumed a "wait and see" approach. S & P have concluded that even if the US doses what it says----it's not enough. I agree with them. Even with what little cuts were made, symbolic, our debt is rising in staggering amounts. Years ago the chant was----Double AA USA; well, it's here.
I don't blame both parties for the US debt downgrade as "an excuse to not pay attention", I blame both parties because THEY'RE BOTH F**KING GUILTY !!! The stupid debt spending party got started under a Republican President and Republican Congress. It hit high gear under that Republican President and a Democrat Congress and went into overdrive with a Democrat President and Democrat Congress !!
I didn't agree with the TEA party folks when it came to driving us over the financial cliff in the name of "fiscal restraint" but I absolutely agree that we had to cut spending along with believing we had to cut spending before any discussion of raising taxes. 1 Trillion dollar plus annual budget deficits are unacceptable and unsustainable. A fiscal day of reckoning had to come, and better it came through an idiotic fight over the political invention of a debt "crisis" than under a true economic catastrophe.
This downgrade is long overdue and we should be thankful it's not worse, as it would have been if we had continued to kick the can down the road until disaster instead of making some hard budget choices now!!
piegan. Harry Reid's plan would have cut more from the federal deficit than the Republican plan. Your attack on "Harry Reid and the Far Left" only shows your ignorance of the real problem.
After reading many of the post on here, what amazes me is the ignorance of those that cannot even write a coherent post that criticizes Obama and the Democrats. Obviously they don't have the intelligence to be wealthy but yet support the policies that are meant to make him a servant of the wealthy. They're just brainwashed tools.
Congress needs to eliminate the Bush tax cuts. This country cannot survive giving the wealthy the tax breaks that Bush pushed through congress for them in 2001 and 2003. It's already cost this country $1.8 trillion dollars and never created any jobs. In fact the unemployment rate went from 4.3% in June 2001 to 5.7% in December 2001 after they were signed into law.
Personally I believe S&P should be investigated for insider trading because from the way the market dropped this past week a lot of Wall Street must have been informed this downgrade was going to happen.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/04/police-raid-milan-moodys-standard-poors
These guys should just get out of the business of rating any country's sovereign debt.
I have a feeling these agencies are going to be found to have had a profound effect on the current Euro debt issues, through shady over-rating of insecure debts.
Joe, they had a bill passed that would have avoided this. Cut cap and balance would cut spending, cap the amount they could spend and get a balanced budget ammendmant. What is radical about that? Over 60% polled wanted this passed. And almost every state has a balanced budget why not the feds. It had exemptions for emergencies like natural disasters and other things.
The bill they passed still adds a MINIMUM OF 7 TRILLION over the next 10 years. So when we get there and owe 25 or 30 trillion then what. By that point all our income will go toward the debt, entitlements and military. Then what.
Taxes won't even scratch the surface of the amount of money we are spending. Under the old Clinton rates you may get another 70 billion. Our deficit was 1.5 TRILLION. So instead of a 1.5 trillion deficit we would have a 1.43 trillion deficit.
Alan
When Clinton was elected, Greenspan lower the interest rate from 10.5% to 6%. We all refinanced, and consumed.
I've been in finance for over 25 years, worked with some of the best people in finance in NYC, the old timers thought the rate would never go below 8%, because at 8% the fed is giving the lenders at 6% which would cover inflation.
But no one complained, we were having to much fun. Laugh now, Cry later. The same attitude Clinton took with Monica in the Oval office.
At 6% the fed was charging the lenders 4%, which did not cover inflation, and now we are paying for this, and our children's children will be paying for this.
The products we are consuming are no longer made in this country. You see Clinton want to spread the wealth and he did, China & India were the main recipients. Clinton also thought it would be wise to give our tech to China, which put us in a precarious position.
The Chinese worship Clinton, they have monuments for him.
If you watch the movie The One, with chinese action star Jet Li it deplicts, Al Gore as president of the United States, That was wishful thinking on the Chinese part.
Carter & Clinton push lenders into doing loans for people who did not quality or have the means to pay back those loans.
Also the Sudanese 1996 had Usama Bin Laden in custody, and they offered him to the United States, but Clinton and his cronies, thought it would not be polictically correct, to take them up on that offer. How much did that costs us?
Go to FEC websight, and you will see who the crooks are.
Back to my Tall Iced Tea & Stogey
" "The American people are watching to see if the bipartisan Joint Committee will develop a plan to responsibly reduce the deficit in a balanced way while promoting economic growth and creating jobs." Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., said the downgrade underscored the need for a "balanced approach to deficit reduction that combines spending cuts with revenue-raising measures" such as doing away with tax breaks for the wealthy and oil companies."
"Balanced" to a tax and spend liberal means "Let's raise taxes in a recession, so we have more money to spend, and have to cut less out of our spending". You can always count on a liberal to want to raise taxes instead of cut spending.
But let's take your idea to another level of fairness - 25% tax on wages AND dividends AND capital gains. That would be 25% on ALL income. All taxed the same - ain't that fair?
Dividends are taxed at a lower rate because corporate taxes have already been paid on them. So they are already double taxed. Nice attempt to stir up the class warfare though.
Why not push for the 40% who pay no income taxes to pay into the system. Don't you think it might be beneficial for them to have a skin in the game?
Larry,
There are plenty of incoherent posts from the right and left on these boards. Just pointing out the ones by the right make you look partisan - which decreases the legitimacy of whatever point you are attempting to make.
As to Reid's plan versus the Republicans, that depends on which Republican plan you are talking about - Ryan's budget and Cut/Cap/Balance all reduced the deficit significantly more than Reid's plan. I don't remember the exact numbers, but Reid's plan and the last Republican plan were very close when you consider the required cuts in part 2 of the plan.
As to the Bush tax cuts, I didn't agree with them when they were implemented and I don't agree with them now. If I had my way, we would faze them out for everyone. It sounds good to say "tax the rich", but the reality is, that doesn't get us close to a balanced budget. If we want to have the projected level of spending, all of us - rich, middle class and poor - need to pay more.
We can continue pushing the burden onto future generations, but eventually the cost will be paid. Personally, I do not feel it is morally right to ask our grandchildren to pay for our excesses - which is what we are doing.
Ron. I'm not denying that coherent post are made by those on the left but my point is that the ones that are criticizing Obama and the Democrats obviously don't have the wealth but yet support the policies that make the rich richer which would hurt their own financial situation.
The problem with Ryan's plan was the damage it would have done to the Social Security System which contrary to Republican talking points was not the cause of the deficit. I agree that Social Security has to be fixed but I don't agree that it should be destroyed as Ryan's plan would have done.
26% of the American population living generation to generation on Taxpayer handouts; Congress, aid to China,aid to everyone , war after war, rebuilding other nations, a tax code that takes a cpa and lawyer to try to understand, world wide bases, outsourcing of middle class jobs, open borders with 14 million illegals flying under the radar, a corrupt banking system only interested in the next quarter profit, a college education that keeps you in debt for life to pay for, and we wonder why we are in a death spiral, look no further than a corrupt Congress!u
Many of these post remind me of the quote: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
Of course personal opinion determines which ones you believe but there are those that seem to have forgotten how we got to this mess and want to return those same people to power. Of course there again, it's a personal opinion who those people are. Isn't this a great country where we can be so polarized and still function? But for how long?
Thinknaboutit 75% of corporations pay ZERO federal income taxes!
I don't know where individuals come up with the idea that 75% of the Corporations don't pay "Federal" income taxes? Which is hogwash and clearly the individuals don't understand the 17000 pages of the US Tax code! There are two types of Corporations, C & S Corps. C Corps are double taxed. They are taxed on "Profit" and Shareholder dividends. S-Corps don't pay Federal Taxes directly (most small businesses are S Corps). Instead the income is divided amoung the Shareholders, a Schedule C is issued to all Shareholders and they have to report that income on their individual Tax Returns. All expenses of the Company including Shareholder expense related to company business is expensed through the Corp. A S corp was designed to insure Shareholders, mainly small businesses were my hit twice with self-employment taxes (FICA).
Not only do they pay federal income taxes, they also have to pay Federal Unemployment taxes and FICA taxes. Then that's just the Federal, they also get hit heavy at the State level also. Unemployment taxes for Corporation have doubled in the last year. A small business in manufacturing in our state who has less then 50 employees, very little turnover in the past 5 years, had to pay 40,000 last year and we are in the 2nd quarter this year and he has exceeded that payment and set to be close to 75000. No turnover!!!!
The ONLY business that does not pay income taxes is a Non-Profit. So anyone that states Corporations don't pay taxes don't know what in the heck they are talking about! Personally I wish the ignorance of it all would stop.
They are the Obama tax cuts now. Bush was not the one that renewed them.
Larry, The Bush tax cuts, unless changed, are scheduled to expire 1/13/ 2013. That'll be just before BO leaves office. Also, the NYSE moves on rumors and the flucuations in pricing are usually self correcting. It's been said that when the cuts expire there will be a massive tax increase. I would suspect that might be the 2 trillion dollar error Geithner is referring to? Quote/US Treasury Direct, from Jan. 20, 2009 to Aug. 6, 2011, BO has increased the National debt 3.9 trillion dollars. He has, in fact, increased the National debt faster than any President in history. He'll spend in 4 what GWB spent in 8.
Larry- Entitlements need to be reform period and the people need to wake up and accept it that there's no more money. The age limmit needs to be raised and welfare needs to be cut there are to many loopholes in the system of fraud and waste and the elderly who are already on it medicaid or medicare it does not does not effect them. The left are so good and scaring people with their chilldish rhetoric. Like throwing grandma off a cliff which is false. OOOOOOOO THE SKY IS FALLING. How thick can people get? How pathetic. I do blame the voters for being so stupid and gullable.!!!!!!!!!!!
Larry,
Good point about stats...as someone whose job it was for a number of years to do statistical analysis, I'm definitely very critical when reviewing numbers...I think there can be good information, but I also realize how easily numbers can be manipulated. This fact becomes even more of a problem when dealing with extremely complex issues such as the US economy.
My wish is, people on all sides of the fence would at least listen to opposing viewpoints and try to understand where the person is coming from, and objectively evaluate their position in light of the other person's comments. Of course, my wife calls me an optimist, not a realist...:-)
Anita, Would you invest in a dysfunctional company? And you wonder why this country is falling apart, it's because people don't have common sense ...
i love it... i only hope that S&P carries thru and that other lenders do indeed affect higher interest rates for the money we borrow.
the US govt and the representatives that you all voted for and are idly standing by, do not seem to think it is important to do what they were told to do.... $4trillion... not $2.3t not even close...
If you all thought it was tough deciding and agreeing on $2.3t, wait until they try to discuss the missing$1.7t, along with the lack of revenue spent on higher interest rates...
our money will not go as far as they think... period... whatever money they CUT, will not be offset by the higher interest rates... so go ahead, and increase the debt limit and borrow more money.... and pay more then you have ever paid for that loan... rather then do what the 'institution' said they would do...
we are used to 'toothless' regimes and UN and all that, but banks and money... we private citizens know, they dont eff around!!! and I am glad they hold teh govt reps to similar standards....
cut the waste.. NOW... no more tree planting.. no more secretary days... no more honorary people...no more fourth of july events, no more new years events... no more foreign aide.. no more trips to little podunck cities on taxpayer money...
if govt reps are doing this for the benefit of the country, then they too should waive their salaries for a while as well... president... sorry.. no salary for you too... you can collect money after on all your speaking arrangements.... Im sure you will be fine...
OUr GDp sits around 14T.. If you taxed everyone 100% of their income you couldn't pay of the national debt..
It time to wake up, you have to cut spending!
The Republicans wanted to cut it by between $4T and $2T the democrats wanted to cut it by $2T in 10 years. The rating group ONLY wanted us to cut spedning deficits by $4T in 10 years and not reduce the actual National debt all. That's just $400B a year or about 11% this year and every year for 10 years. Is this really that hard? Is everyone so stupid that they can't understand this simple math?
The private sector has seen about a 25% reduction in pay. Make the government take a 11% reduction for everything. Make government employees take a 11% reduction. Make everyone getting a government check take a 11% reduction. You can do the same by making everyone pay at least 11% more than they do know in tax increases too but that would mean more inflation.
Your call, which one do you want? Eitherway I'd go for it. I prefer it to be cuts, mix it up for a compromise. Make the Gov take a 5.5% reduction and raise the average taxes by 5.5%. No I don't prefer it, I prefer just spending cuts but I'll make a compromise. BUT EVERYONE GET EFFECTED! Not just the "other" group you don't like. EVERYONE. You make a dollar you pay $.06.. Get over it. $.06 isn't the difference between eating and living.. It'll make it tougher to have a good life but we all need to pitch in just the same as anyone else.
These idiots in congress couldn't just sit down and say hey, we have to do something. Republicans cant stand the idea of cutting the military budget, Democrats can't stand the idea of cutting just about anything else. Everything gets reduced without discrimination. Hey that's called tough choices without anyone getting their way. Tough luck, its got to be done.
My preference is different. 45% cut on all government programs except SS and Medi. That makes for a near if not perfectly balanced budget this year. Then you have to get our money out of the governments hands. They(I dont care who it was) gave SS money away and cannot be trusted with it. Make every generation after the current one recieveing take a 1% cut to todays level every year and a .9% cut in payments to SSI. In 80 years SS is basically gone except for SSDI we all pay 20% of current pay into SS for those that are severly disabled. While that's going on force people to pay 20%+(10%) of that for each year there after (e.g., 20% this year 22% next year 24.2%...) until that numberhits about 120% of todays rate of what they pay in SS benefits (at this rate) to one of many private retirement funds (IRA) You die it gets passed down or willed, they don't get to keep that money. No taxes paid on the money invested nor withdrawn.
Medicare stays the sameand gets the saem payments.
Most people retired today would have about a Million in the bank or more if they did this on there own for the time they worked. While that isn't enough to actually live 40 more years. $25k a year. It is equivalent to about what one would get from SS anyway! When you retire you cannot withdraw more than that amount + accrued interest per year. @ 100 years old, if you're still alive, you get to draw from the revised SSDI program.
We have to get the government out of our money for retirement, they can not even cut/raise 11% a year for ten years what do you think they are doing with your retirement fund?
They are spending it and really screwing us all..
Why not push for the 40% who pay no income taxes to pay into the system. Don't you think it might be beneficial for them to have a skin in the game?
Its easy to point fingers at the poor and middle class when you lack the capacity of understanding WHY they don't pay.
Wages have been stagnant for over 2 decades, with minimal increase on the overall. The federal minimum wage is currently TOO LOW to push back against the rate of inflation. The tax code addresses that imbalance for one simple reason:
To prevent anarchy.
Tens of millions of families rely on EITC to recoup expenses incurred during the prior holiday season. Allowing them to recoup the federal taxes on (and a portion of state) that insufficient wage, does not excuse them from other taxes. Such as property, school, or sales taxes.
That said, the problem with the tax code is not at the bottom. Its in the top 10%, for which there are tremendous deductions (about 180 individual deductions in fact) that allow corporations and wealthy individuals to significantly reduce their tax obligation.
When Warren Buffett tells the media that he pays a lower effective tax rate than his secretary, thats a pretty good indicator of WHY the lower income brackets actually NEED things like EITC:
http://tusb.stanford.edu/2007/07/warren_buffet_has_a_lower_tax.html
The "effective" tax rate is what actually gets paid. And for Buffett, it was 17.7% on $46million, while his secretary paid 30% on $60,000.
As a percentage of earnings, his secretary paid more than he did, even though he paid more overall. The bottom 90% of ALL Americans earn an average median wage of less than $32,000 a year.
So the calls for the bottom 90% of wage earners to "pay their fair share" are not only ridiculous, but pretty blatantly self-serving and crude. You can't call for the lowest income brackets to pay something they can't afford to pay, when you're largely responsible for why they can't.
We do need tax reform. I think we need to go to a transaction tax as proposed by Representative Chaka Fattah (D-Pennsylvania). It would replace the income tax and the capital gains tax. Essentially every transaction conducted in the United States would incur a 1% tax. There would be no exemptions and no deductions. Therefore, the more you spend the more tax you would pay. According to Representative Fattah the U.S. has conducts $900 trillion in transactions every year, so this tax would rais $9 trillion a year. Enough to meet all of our needs, eliminate the deficit, pay off the national debt with the surplus within 10-20 years.
One problem. Today its 1% tomorrow 20%.. They cant stop.. We all know it, no matter who you are.
Who the hell cares what s&p says? They are an American based firm and the last thing they are really going to do is make it an official downgrade, that would have negative implications for them as well. Once this "miscalculation" gets corrected we will be back at top notch ratings.
We should honestly tell them go to hell, we know America is not going to default on its credit, period, no matter how whacked out our politicians are.
Not only that but is this not the same group that gave AAA ratings to CDO's backed by monopoly mortgages that helped bring on this economic disaster? Yeah theyre real credible.
Let me point out what is known as obvious.
Monoploy mortgages did not cause the disaster.
People not paying those martgages did..
Had people paid, we wouldn't have had any problems whatsoever.
SO pay your bills.
Fattah's proposal wouldn't resolve anything. Top corporations are sitting on over $2Tn. They're NOT spending it. They're not even investing it. Its sitting in off-shore tax havens, in the hopes that republicans are successful in implementing measures which afford them an opportunity to "repatriate" those funds with the most minimal expense possible.
Democrats needs to beat them to the punch, and repatriate those funds "with conditions". Such as infrastructure, alternative energy, and educational deductions on funds that are invested in those areas. This would create hundreds of thousands of jobs within a few months, provide educational funds for states that use them to create jobs in the educational fields, AND give our energy independence efforts a substantial push forward, thus creating even MORE jobs.
That alone would require very minimal additional government spending, mostly for administration and oversight.
The key is to get republicans to stop obstructing such efforts so the country can move forward.
Ted sorry but your wrong what caused the economic crisis was the packaging and repacking of Bad debt as good debt. And loans made by corporate mortgage agencies to anyone they could to feed fresh debt into the system they crated. Also Bloated house prices that made a 100 thousand dollar house suddenly worth 400 thousand.
The Lenders knew the people they gave morgages to couldn't afford them they lied to them to feed the bubble. "YOu can afford this low low pament and we will work with you to keep that price down" filled every city in every state.
Should the U. S. credit rating even be AA? Audit the Fed and see how much worthless paper they have on their balance sheet. Or since they are a private banking cartel, we could take away their printing presses and stop their enabling of governments spending.
Neoatg, you are mostly right but you are forgetting one important thing. The banks were making those loans because they were forced to by the government under the communities reinvestment act. The feds came in and told banks that they had to lend to the people in the communities where they had branches. The banks told them no way and then the feds said fine, we will buy all of the mortgages and hold them with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.
That's really important to point out as well.
Ted, yeah you're correct too. But when someones mortgage goes from $1000 per month to $4000 no one is going to pay that. Theres definitely some personal accountability here but people merely just not paying their mortgage wasn't the only factor.
from mdsj
We should honestly tell them go to hell, we know America is not going to default on its credit, period, no matter how whacked out our politicians are.
I have to disagree...America will likely be forced into a default if we don't make significant changes in our fiscal policies. Even the US cannot continue running $1 Trillion+ deficits every year in perpetuity. Yes, it will take at least a decade or two, but it can happen if we don't take steps to aver it. Sticking our heads in the sand is not a valid solution.
This downgrade is not about ability to pay for what we borrowed.
It's more about our American culture of immediate gratification for material goods.
The political state defiantly requires a downgrade. The republicans have obstructed majority governance for political gain. Democracies cannot operate if the majority cannot govern.
Because they were forced to by the government under the communities reinvestment act.
That not true MDSJ that's the excuse propped up to try and make the banks victims instead of the people responsible for the crisis. The act did not cover adjustable interest rate loans. The ones that were pushed by the banks. The act clear states it was not to be used to push risky leading including the High-risk loads the banks used across the USA.
Banks knew they crated a bubble and they all where just trying to keep it inflated so they could make massive amounts of money.
Isn't it interesting that china and germany had already downgraded us and the only people trying to make us fiscally sound get the most blame?
In my opinion our rating is much too high. I don't buy treasury bonds because the interest is too low for the risk. I remember what happened to the stock holders in gm.
@feltupbythefed, i'm confused, you call yourself fed up with the fed, yet you post a cute little "article" by a college student basically encouraging the destruction of the "fed". it is not surprising that a radical college student would suggest to further divide our country by splitting up our country as if it were your own personal property. the idea is not even original (can you say War Between the States); it is however offensive to those of us (abe lincoln, my son, etc) who would give their lives to keep us the UNITED STATES. it is surprising, however, that someone who obviously shares my "fed up" attitude would suggest further division as the answer. you sir (or child) are not the answer, you are the problem. it is not the fed you are fed up with, it is difference of opinion and freedom to express those opinions that you are fed up with. try the communist party, it might suit you better, you know, no opposition.
I don't see any posts here questioning Standard and Poors credibility !!!!
After all, it was Standard and Poors OPINION that rated mortgage based securities at AAA, when it was obvious to many smart dudes that they were not AAA, but were JUNK..........As did the other credit rating agencies....
Their motives are SUSPECT at best, and their credibility with me is shot !!! Anyone relying on THEIR OPINIONS to invest, had better do their own research, YOU CAN'T TRUST THEM..........
Who cares what the hell they think, the debt of the United States of America IS still the safest investment in the world !!!
After all, it was Standard and Poors OPINION that rated mortgage based securities at AAA, when it was obvious to many smart dudes that they were not AAA, but were JUNK..........As did the other credit rating agencies....
Yep, but I don't understand why the US can't do what those investment banks did to get those AAA ratings. They just paid Standard & Poors to give them a good rating! Why can't our government do that? </sarcasm>
Rick - people invest in lots of dysfunctional companies - the airlines for instance.
Yesterday Europe told Italy no more money to bail you out and within 24 hours they made a commitment to institute a balanced budget amendment and balance their budget by 2013. Yes, it will be painful, but sooner is always less painful than running up the bill more and making things right later.
Do we really have to go belly up before doing the right thing? The politicians, with the exception of the TP (and no, I am not a TP) only care about shaking down special interests for bribes- er, "contributions, wink wink, and therefore can't consider instituting a painful cure to the debt problem as it might affect their reelection.
By the way, S&P downgraded the bond debt. Don't forget the unfunded pension, SS, and Medicare liabilities. Add them into the mix and we're already bankrupt. Giving the politicians more money in the form of higher taxes or revenues is unacceptable until they prove worthy of the receipts they currently mismanage.
Banker-boy since the S&P site the continuation of the bush tax cuts as part of the reason for their downgrade. Expect a massive number of people who didn't care about S&P past problems ,and even defended them to suddenly be very worried.
White house: S&P made 2 trillion dollar error in lowering the country's credit rating.
Yeah, right it was just an "error". Like the error they kept making over and over again in the years before the crash in 2008 when they gave Triple A ratings to securities backed by sub-prime mortgages (which netted them hefty fees from Wall Street banks).
Even the billionaire Warren Buffet used to refer to those mortgage backed securities as "Weapons of Mass Financial Destruction".
It's nuts to let private businesses rate the government's credit worthiness or even private financial products because they have so much to win or lose with the level of rating or when a rating is changed.
Bond rating agencies should be public utilities or at least heavily regulated with big jail terms for any hanky panky.
Thanks for stopping by "aggie" ---- what this country really needs is more wisdom from Texass. NOT
so lets see Our interest rates are going to got to 8% for a car 16% for a credit card and 8% for a mortgage and the world will end.
"You can always count on a liberal to want to raise taxes instead of cut spending."........what???? Didn't the dems want to cut 4 trillion?
I guess my reply should be something along these lines:
"You can always count on a conservative to give a tax haven to corporations instead of raising revenue"
to madmarinedad (1.106) ... get a grip! Fedups post was sarcasm. If you think its that kind of article dividing our country, than you are greatly mistaken. The division is because everything that was in it was truth. I for one AM NOT and WILL NOT be in the middle. I am sick of people thinking that I should apoligize for my beliefs (which by the way line up exactly with the email posted by fedup). The federal govt has gotten way to big for its own britches and needs be brought back to earth. RICK PERRY 2012
This country has never been this equally divided amongst the American Citizens.
Offered on a plate, are the most disastrous Politicians, and their non capability to accomplish anything presented to them. They are ALL the worst of the worst in American History.
We may be facing another 4-8 more years of do nothingers--we vote for a Leader. What do we get. A bunch of cronies, and new ones (Tea Partiers with NO experience) to screw up this country.
It does start at the TOP; that is where the blame goes--Geithner must leave for the good of the people. He must sacrifice his Position; he does have a shady past, of which does not look good under the Financial problems of the US--
Why doesn't O see that his Cabinet members such as Geither, Napalitano, and others are also bringing him down. No respect from Americans, nor Trust.
What is going to happen to the United States?--First time in History with a lower Credit Rating?
China is going to be hanging in there to take our bank accounts and debt in their Communist hands--
Do you want this?--Obama, is in so knee deep in all areas of his Administration and all areas of present crises.
Due to the recession, the TBTF bailouts and the tax cuts, the U.S. federal budget has ballooned so that it is spending $1.4 TRILLION (12 zeroes) more than it is taking in in taxes.
Even assuming the economy recovers, all of the Bush tax cuts expire and the already expire TBTF bailouts don't recur, remember that the federal deficit was ALREADY between $400 BILLION (9 zeroes) and $700 BILLION for most of the time during the Bush Administration. That meant that at least 25% of the budget was borrowed money before the recession. You would have to cut spending by that much or raise overall taxes by ONE THIRD to get to even (or some combination of the above). Notice this does not pay down the debt, it is meant to prevent the debt from growing so that the debt will decline over 30 years as the debt is slowly retired and it becomes an ever smaller feature of the economy as it grows. This is comparable to paying down a fixed-rate, fixed-term mortgage in a household budget where personal income slowly rises over time but the mortgage balance does not rise over time.
Basically, 70-75% of tax receipts come from personal income taxes of some kind. In order to pay for a "normalized" expenditure level (say around 2000 after inflation), you would have to raise taxes an additional 5 prercentage points (at the bottom rates) to 10 percentage points (at the top rates).
Given that personal spending and income account for 70% of GDP and that normalized tax receipts of all kinds equal 18-21% of GDP, that would mean that any FLAT TAX would have to be AT LEAST 26% just to maintain the current deficit or be raised to more than 32% to have a balanced budget. This is just math. There's no politics in these numbers. These are the FACTS.
While I am for dramatically simplifying the tax code, do not pretend that any existing flat tax proposal would solve the deficit issue or that any realistic tax level would not cause such political protest from the middle class that it would never be accepted.
The reality is that U.S. needs to have the U.S. economy grow, it has to raise taxes by a meaningful amount, it needs to reduce its military expenditures to 1995 levels (after inflation) and it needs to slow the growth rate (notice I did not say eliminate or cut) of Social Security and Medicare so that economic growth can over time make up for the size of the debt. These areas I mentioned account for more than 60% of ALL federal spending. Everything else (ALL regulatory agencies like the FDA, CDC, SEC, EPA, etc; the Depts of Labor, Education, Housing; ALL law enforcement like FBI, DOJ and the court system; NASA; ALL research and art grants and so one for a hundred lines) would account for a mere 25% of the budget.
No quick or painless solution exists. Anyone telling you that there is one is LYING. All that is left is where the pain falls in terms of higher taxes AND reduced spending. At the state and local levels, that has already begun.
Robert-3864055...you say we can not have both a military and help our citizens....how about then we do away with both.? MAybe we can do away with our crooked politicans too. And then...as folks get older we just let then die off...no help, no social security no health care , nothing...But remember..your time to get old will come much sooner than you think...will see then how you feel about all this.
Let us talk reality. American wages/buying power has eroded for over 3 decades. What does that mean to a consumer based economic system?
Consumers borrowed money to make up for the lost buying power of their wages. In order for consumers to continue buying goods and services they have to borrow money. This debt is the economy, it is the money created by Banks on ledger sheets. It is not REAL money. During the GW Bush administration the economy grew because debt increased at an exponential pace (Personal and Governmental). The bubble --POPPED-- ...
The US Debt is only ONE factor in the whole ball of wax called the US Economy. Banks have an ENORMOUS role in expanding the economy. Since Banks cannot lend to middle class Americans anymore and MCA wages have been decimated (if you actually have a job) then the economy stays stagnant. This engine of economic growth has been tapped out from that source. So people look to Corporations...
Corporations need to keep profits HIGH in order to keep stock prices High so the baby Boom Bubble generation can retire on the Pensions, 401K's and retirement funds they have accumulated over the years. For the next 10-20 years these people will be leaving the workforce. Corporations, who by law have to get the most effective return rate possible on investments will be very wary to invest the 2 Trillion profits they have accumulated. Baby Boomers won't be creating new money in the form of debt. They will be on a fixed income. Corporations only see decline in the US Markets and no need to hire new employees.
Corporations have diversified. They have cheap labor that reflects the majority of the worlds income buying power much better. Americans better get use to this level.
The only source of money left is the Government. New Monetary policy has to be put into law that lessens the impact the Fiat banking system has to our economy (Republicans seem to be against this). The tax code HAS to be restructured (Republicans seem to be against this too). Government HAS to be able to invest in the infrastructure of our country without incurring new debt (Republicans definitely are against this).
What can these things do. Tax code can encourage corporations to build infrastructure, manufacturing and hire Americans here in USA. Not through tax breaks but by plugging the holes in the current tax system, eliminate subsidies.
Government spending money on infrastructure is an investment with tangible value and worth. Middle class Americans NEED to make an honest wage that reflects the true costs of living in the USA. When Americans have money to spend the economy has demand. Taxes can be good and bad depending on who is giving the government the money. Fair taxation of profits is not a bad thing. When corporation squirrel money away it takes it away from the economy.
I see all the usual left wing propagandists are out in force spreading their lies.
I used to say any idiot knows corporations don't pay taxes, their customers do, i.e., us. I was wrong, apparently there are a number of idiots that still don't know this.
Ignorance is when you don't know the truth, stupidity is when you know it but choose to ignore it. You can't claim ignorance anymore, you've been told too many times how ALL business expenses are covered by pricing.
For the very few that may still be ignorant, Expenses + Profit = price, is about the simplest one can make it. Taxes are an expense, profit must be constant or expand or a business dies, (GM, etc.), therefor delta expense = delta price.
Corporate taxes/loopholes fall into this catagory. Lets say Obama taxes Exxon $1/gal, who pays that tax? Not Exxon, you! Exxon just raises their price $1/gal to cover the cost. The only way to not raise prices is to decrease expenses somewhere else, i.e move your plant to China.
Let me be quite blunt, anyone who says "raise corporates taxes to make them pay their fair share" is a liar. What they are really saying is "lets place a highly regressive stealth tax on the poor and middle class, that allows us to fund the bloated bureaucracy while blaming corporations for higher prices".
The old "record profits" lie is just as absurd. If you make $1M on a $1M investment that is amazing, on the other hand if you make $1M on a $1B investment is it beyond pathetic. Anyone who talks about profits is a propagandist, if you want to know the real bottom line, quote return on investment.
Some poster mentioned that they don't teach basic economics in high school anymore. If this is true, I really feel sorry for future generations. If you don't even know how the economy works, how business works, you will be particularly susceptible to those who want to control you.
clb-462357 Are you suggesting G.E., Bank of America, Boeing, and Citi-Bank are non-profit corporations? Your post @ #1.86 not only contradicts itself, but also proves you are either grossly misinformed or specialize in posting hogwash on the blogs to give cover to these tax cheats. (or both)
Try watching the real news sometime.
Valhalla Phil - Since you are of the opinion that no businesses pay taxes (they put the burden on their customers) I guess you would agree corporate tax breaks are unecessary and should be completely removed. You present a very good argument for raising their tax rates as well, since they will make sure that those 50% of Americans who "don't pay federal income tax" will indeed pay more towards taxes.
while I agree with much of what you posted, I must point out that Social Security contributes NOTHING to our debt OR deficit. Social Security currently has a $2.2Tn surplus, that would sustain it until 2025 without ANY changes.
A simple $1 a week increase to the payroll Social Security tax, would push that surplus out by an estimated 75 years or more. A $2 a week additional contribution to the Medicare tax would make it solvent for the next 50 years or more, based upon current projections. Means testing aimed at high income retirees (especially with regard to Medicare Part D) would make both solvent indefinitely.
I would GLADLY pay an additional $3 a week to keep these programs around for my kids and grandkids should they need them (i'll brown bag my lunch one day a week). No question or argument about it. Whether I or they prove to be eligible at retirement or not.
Anyone who would, is simply selfish and cares more for themselves than they do even for their own descendants.
FedupwiththeFed #1.54---
Your silly letter was written by some paid rightwing googly-eyed wingnut more than 2 years ago. Here's a rather eloquent response written in February 2009.
http://hepzibahpyncheon.blogspot.com/2009/02/divorce-proposal.html
Interesting you thought the drivel was worthy as a bold type posting on this thread. And then you added this gem:
If you can't stand behind our Military, Please feel free to stand in front of them!
So Fedup...you believe our military is a solid block of brainless, hummer-driving, weapon fixated, war-loving Republican stumps?
4. Since you hate guns and war, we'll take our firearms, the cops, the NRA, and the military.
Ok, welcome to reality, I'll be your host:
1. Our military is proudly made up of members of every political party, every gender, every religion and every color.
2. Our military is extremely educated, not only in their specific MOS or AFSC, but in various higher education degrees with various colleges and universities.
3. No member of the military is a war-lover. Our military members are trained to do their specific jobs and when they are sent to a warzone, they do that job well, but none of them are happy when that happens, especially when some of them see other military members injured or killed.
4. My great-uncle spent 30 years as a Baltimore cop and he would be the first to tell you that the police force isn't a block of uneducated, weapon-fixated Republican stumps either.
How do I know this?
I'm the wife of a 20 year ACTIVE DUTY MILITARY MEMBER...and I'm a VOTING DEMOCRAT who's a fiscal conservative but a SOCIAL LIBERAL.
YOU and your cheezy chain-email buddy don't get to keep MY FLAG and you sure as sh!t don't get to keep MY NATIONAL ANTHEM that was written in Baltimore which just happens to be MY HOME TOWN.
Face it....LIBERALS LOVE THEIR COUNTRY TOO.
now run along....
A message from our first president to all the neo-conservatives who claim liberals are un-American...
"As Mankind becomes more liberal, they will be more apt to allow that all those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community are equally entitled to the protections of civil government. I hope ever to see America among the foremost nations of justice and liberality."
George Washington
That's right, Liberals founded this country so love it or leave it!
valhalla, you're full of it. Corporations pay tax when they have a profit. Customers buy things, the company (hopefully) makes a profit, then has to pay tax on the profit. No profit, no tax. Saying the customer pays the tax is like saying your employer pays your taxes. No individual pays ANY taxes, thier employer does--horray! In any event, how is that left wing propaganda?
I see that the Republicans must have sent the word out to get on MSNBC to vote. There is sure a big difference now then there was a few hours ago.
Alan I agree that Social Security did not create this deft crisis and I've stated that many times. In any case Social Security has to be modified if fall in line with the number of retirees expected in next few years. The number of people working has fallen to a point that it cannot be maintained at the present level unless the jobs are brought back into this country.
Our failed President and his crew is a proven liar and hypocrite!!
"The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can't pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government's reckless fiscal policies. ... Leadership means that 'the buck stops here.' Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better."
Senator Barack Hussein Obama, Floor Speech in US Senate, 2006
NEXT...NATIONAL DEBT STATISTICS
President Barack Obama UP TO JAN. 2011 - HIGHER NOW!!
President George W. Bush
President Bill Clinton
President George H.W. Bush
President Ronald Reagan
President Jimmy Carter
President Gerald Ford
President Richard Nixon
President Lyndon B. Johnson
http://www.thestreet.com/story/10959884/7/national-debt-a-look-at-presidents-tabs.html
Online polls are useless, they are too easily manipulated by even a single user.
Enough of this President.
There is no end to the damage he's doing on every single front. "Shots in the arm" for our economy have gotten so commonplace the US has no more good veins to use!
Enough too of his scape-goating a dismal Presidency of failure to men and incidents of long ago.
It's a good thing for the United States that EVERY President hasn't done the 'excuse making' and 'buck-passing' of this man and his supporters. We don't need a President that 'cherry-picks' his assignments while spending spending spending alongside his long list of excuses!!
Time to go Mr. Obama....bye-bye
There is one thought I would like to present. Beside the Eisenhower republican administration which created the interstate highway system, what other program have the Republicans ever presented that were aimed at helping the average american citizen. I'll take anything you can come up with because I know there aren't any and I've lived through every administration since Herbert Hoover
Larry: What SS surplus? The gov't spent it already on other things to get votes. The so called "debt" is to ourselves, the money is gone. To say that SS is solvent because the money is owed is simply inaccurate. Gone baby gone. The grafters spent it all, and then some.
Paying attention to the article will show that all financial analysts agree that this was expected and probably overdue, save one. That lone analyst is basing his argument on speculation by the treasury that S&P made an error of 1 or 2 trillion in its calculations as absolute truth, when it is, in fact, not. Draw your own conclusions.
In any event, I agree that since this was expected, there shouldn't be too much more negative beyond a few short term ripples but interest rates could rise a bit. Some have said all three credit agencies arrived at the same conclusion but neither of them wanted to be the first to actually enact the downgrade. Since S&P decided to pull the downgrade trigger, the others may follow and I don't think this would really come as a surprise to analysts either. But it will mean higher interest rates.
AMAZINGLY, THE LIBERAL PROGRESSIVE IGNORANCE CONTINUES!
Yesterday the greatest shame was placed on the American people because of the delusion called progressivism. Today China, Japan, Korea and other nations condemn the very ideology progressivism advocates. A few days ago even Russia denounced our profligate monetary and fiscal malfeasance. Yet the Liberal Progressive ignorance defends that which they brought on our great Republic.
As history shall show, no nation our size has ever or will ever support the incoherent ideology they so cherish. Social and economic justice is fairy-tale musings that can only exist in those that relinquish their independence for the alleged safety of an elitist driven statism. These story-book existences are formulated in the classrooms and teachers lounges of the glorified Ivy League indoctrination camps. Here is where the delusions begin and then are spread like the disease it is. The fallacy that the individual would rather be herded into the collective rather than live in peaceful individualism is believed and more amazingly promoted.
These chosen few have never created anything. Never produced any functional benefit. Never developed any innovation. They demonize those that do and demand that their success and prosperity then be redistributed to those that have been programmed into the collective. The Liberal Progressive is the modern day antithesis of independence. Never has this irrational existence flourished in a society our size and it never will. Repeated attempts and social engineering gone horribly wrong are evidenced in Europe today but the elitists believe their socialism will succeed.
For nearly 100 years this fallacious social experiment has been failing. From the New Deal and its veiled attempt to "help" the needy, has been disqualified today as unreasonable. The Great Society has been an assumption that has also failed and today we as a nation suffer its consequences. The immoral and inhumane belief that a person wants to be nurtured through life by those with no experience is further evidence of this fairy-tale. The amazing part is that so many want to live with so little under the direction of the same people who take from them. This is the root of the delusion. Liberal Progressives believe that they are receiving benefits from the elitist while at the same time they lose their independence. They lose their individualism. They lose their will.
As this story unfolded over the decades the results were obvious to the independent and rational. Unfortunately it was addicting to those less informed and illogical. The magnetism of being taken care of from the cradle to the grave is too overwhelming for the weak and incapable. They allowed their basic rights to be stolen for the meaningless benefit of a few entitlements. This is the deception that they don't realize until the delusion can no longer be sustained. The decision to be controlled by the statists and their fable is failing.
Bread and Circuses is a metaphor for a superficial means of appeasement. The elitists use this and declare they are doing this for the betterment of the individual yet all it results in is "I'homme moyen sensuel" (a common man). They then usurp the basic concept of individualism and the result is a society betrothed to their elitists. Roman politicians glorified bread and circuses to obtain the votes of the poor and ignorant, giving out cheap food and benefits. The deception is subtle yet the results are tremendous. As the individual is reduced to a social stratum they are never allowed to prosper beyond that level unless the elitists allow it. As this deception grew the intelligentsia benefitted and allowed one of the greatest empires to collapse.
The collective is what the Liberal Progressive submits to in order to survive. Their strength, will and self-reliance are abdicated for the scraps left by the elitists they have been programmed to trust. The ruse is now complete. With a submissive and uninformed collective the state is ready to complete its dominance. Dangling the dream of social and economic justice in front of them, the incapable and intimidated have no option but to follow. As they are led, more and more promises and solutions are offered, by then the indefensible individual capitulates. The deception is now complete. Having their individualism, self-esteem and will destroyed they have no choice but to relinquish themselves to the collective.
This conquest comes at a tremendous price. As more and more is promised to the broken spirit more and more support is needed. This support of course comes in the name of money. The subtlety of the indoctrination over decades slowly and persistently purges the wealth and sovereignty of the society. Using the manipulative mechanisms of being sensitive to the poor, the weak, the exploited and unintelligent the Liberal Progressive machine influences more of the same. The conditioning is complete and effective. The breakdown of the state sponsored schools is a tremendous asset for the movement and as it succeeds it expands.
Now we have previously third-world nations condemning our profligate and incompetent expansion of the socialist state and the Liberal Progressives still resist. The resistance is mainly by projection. The indoctrinated now have to lash out as their utopia world is collapsing around them, as have all previous attempts. The typical response is blame and denial. Blaming everyone and everything other than the very problem they have created. Then the rage sets in. Violence at first is minimal. Usually a target is uniformly selected and a universal lie is promoted against it. Racism, extremism, terrorism are the current accusations. As the Liberal Progressives try to feign this as isolated the extensive collusion is obvious to those of us still able to reason for ourselves. The media walks and talks in lock-step on their cable propaganda networks. The orchestration is humorous as they believe no one notices. The blogs and newsprint continue their Saul Alinsky and Cloward and Piven mental gyrations as if scripts were written.
The opposing political ideologies are the main targets as rational thought begins to replace the delusion in the society. Today we see it as the Republicans and TEA Party are targeted, who's conservative and Constitutional beliefs are demonized, and the rage begins. Even as the Liberal Progressives were warned by all three of the rating agencies they still resisted. The incompetence of any fiscal policy was fully exposed during the Debt ceiling negotiations as the only solutions they had were refusal. Refusal to accept or even debate. If the debates became reasonable and acceptable they still balked and changed the agreement. The goalposts kept moving and their confusion increased.
Our great and sovereign nation has been violated by this Progressive disease long enough. American declinism as supported by the Liberal Progressives must be eliminated. American exceptionalism, individuality and dependence must be returned. Our Founder's did not write a Declaration of Dependence. Our Framer's did not create an egalitarian manifesto, they created a Federal Constitutional Republic.
The undeniable failure of Progressivism occurred yesterday. No longer can our great Republic be bastardized by this unsustainable and illicit ideology. True Constitutional Originalism must be returned. Fiscal and monetary common-sense must replace the irrational profligate stealing from one to give to another. The TRUE free-market must be allowed to exist. All the traits of Liberal Progressivism must be destroyed. Its deception to camouflage its true socialist underpinnings must be ended.
America is a Republic, not a Democracy. In a Republic the most important minority, the individual, is most important. The majority mob mentality of a Democracy has crippled our society. Liberal Progressives must be eliminated before they completely destroy the greatest and freest society. We have been warned by the ratings agencies, China, Russia, Japan and South Korea. It's time to heed their warnings and return to what our Founder's and Framer's envisioned.
If not, a third-world America is no longer impossible.
Norm, $4T of that $14T is owed to SS. If it's "gone" then we owe only $10T, right?
Obama created a bi-partisan commiittee to offer solutions to the fiscal mess, which they did, then Obama ignored the commissions recomendations and report!
Try reading this report - expand your knowledge of what a crook Obama is and what Obama's personal agenda as President is for America - destruction, which Obama is accomplishing!
http://www.fiscalcommission.gov/sites/fiscalcommission.gov/files/documents/TheMomentofTruth12_1_2010.pdf
markmich, just type a thought of your own, no one is going to read your 1000 word cut and paste.
yeah, Obama's the crook. In 1999, we were projected to be out of debt in like 2008, yep zero, nada. Instead tax cuts, Iraq, Medicare Part D, necessity for Bailout and stimulus. $10T. No jobs, no revenue, more stimulus, $14T. Must be Obama's fault. Sure.
1992 -- The United Nations Conference on Environment and Development (UNCED) Earth Summit takes place in Rio de Janeiro this year, headed by Conference Secretary-General Maurice Strong. The main products of this summit are the Biodiversity Treaty and Agenda 21, which the U.S. hesitates to sign because of opposition at home due to the threat to sovereignty and economics. The summit says the first world's wealth must be transferred to the third world.
July 18, 1993 -- CFR member and Trilateralist Henry Kissinger writes in the Los Angeles Times concerning NAFTA: "What Congress will have before it is not a conventional trade agreement but the architecture of a new international system...a first step toward a new world order."
The DISEASE must be addressed not only the symptoms.
United States out of United Nations.
Then,
Ban the Federal Reserve Bank.
Ban Fiat currency.
Ban fractional Banking.
Then,
Close 90 percent of military bases.
Reduce Military budget by 80 percent.
Enforce our borders.
Allow alien entry by green card only.
Then,
Eliminate Homeland Security.
Eliminate criminal CIA activity.
Eliminate war on drugs.
Legalize marijuana.
Free non violent prisoners.
Stop all privatization of government functions.
Then,
Term limits for Politicians.
Repeal Electoral College.
Limit political campaign funds.
Ban all professional lobbyists.
Then,
Restore funding to Social Security.
Begin single payer universal health care.
Eliminate useless government agencies.
Line by line review of pork.
Review Politian’s benefits and salary.
Tariffs on all foreign manufactured items.
Then,
Prosecute governmental Traitors.
Eliminate CFR, IMF, Bilderberg, Trilateral, etc.
Enforce the Constitution.
SmBusOwnerinNY
Your envy is obvious. Its a shame it is wasted on your business. Perhaps if you were more independent you would finally succeed.
I'm plenty successful, pal. Unfortunately, I sell a pretty high proportion of my products to Australia and elsewhere where 1) they actually have and spend their money, and 2) know when a cost-saving measure is worth investing in. I wish I sold more here. I'm doing my best. 100% sourced and manufactured here in the US. Picked a supplier that gets 100% of it's power from their own wind turbine. I have solar Photovoltaics on my own roof. I'm doing whats right and I'm successful at it.
I have a post elsewhere on this vine that says we should raise taxes (yes, mine too) with a 200% refundable job-creation credit. See 2.38. I think that would motivate the "job creators" to actually create jobs.
Republicans can blame Obama all they want, but S&P was VERY clear about who is to blame:
http://www.thomhartmann.com/blog/2011/08/mainstream-media-ignores-sp-attack-republicans
Compared with previous projections, our revised base case scenario nowassumes that the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts, due to expire by the end of 2012,remain in place. We have changed our assumption on this because the majorityof Republicans in Congress continue to resist any measure that would raise revenues, a position we believe Congress reinforced by passing the act. Key macroeconomic assumptions in the base case scenario include trend real GDP growth of 3% and consumer price inflation near 2% annually over the decade.
The above is the paragraph the writer is referring to. Keep screaming "It's all Obama's fault!" all you want, but it doesn't get ANY clearer than that.
This downgrade is squarely OWNED by republicans. Straight from the horse's mouth.
smbuisownerny; yep; the surplurus is around 2.6 trillion, not counting the interest owed; however, in order to draw down on the surplus, the Treasury will have to borrow the money since it is a unsecured debt, with no collateral; in plain words over the last 45 years Congress has taken all the money from all the dedicated funds, there are about 35, ss,civil service pensions, armed forces pensions, hwy trust fund, etc., and spent it on anything the lobbyists wanted, of the 14 trillion owed only 2 trillion is owed to China, 8 trillion is owed to the American people, and about 4 trillion out there in the world market. we are farmers who ate the seeds!
MtMike-571674
Commissions are just another deflection the Liberal Progressives and Barrack Hussein use due to their incompetence. We have all seen their absolute inability by proposing a budget that a 5 year old could do better. This was not, unfortunately, by mistake. Barrack Husseins embarrassment of a budget was intentional just so they could use their politic against anything the Republicans offered.
Repeated attempts to illicit details of their "plan" were diverted and projections against the Republicans continued. Timmy "Turbo Tax" Geithner was asked 3 times by Chris Wallace to offer any part of the Democrat's plan, he wouldn't. It's not that he didn't want to, it was because he couldn't.
There never was a plan other than the usual ignorant "Tax and Spend" that has become the hallmark of the Left.
Now he and Barrack Hussein have destroyed our credit. Of course they blame everyone but themselves. Fiscal and monetary policies are unnecessary in the Liberal Progressive mind. In their little delusional world the only solution to all of societies problem is to blame the successful who have created the greatest economy in history. Their goal is to rape the entire collective and then the socialist state will be complete.
The credit downgrade will be the best thing that could happen. It finally shines the light on the true cause of our economic calamity, Progressivism. Now we can eliminate it and finally begin our return to a true Republic.
SmBusOwnerinNY
I have a post elsewhere on this vine that says we should raise taxes (yes, mine too) with a 200% refundable job-creation credit.
As a small business owner how can you support our criminal progressive tax system? I'm also a business owner, actually I created and sold 3 businesses that I sit on their Boards now. I have no problem with expanding the tax base but not by increasing the disincentives of a bracket increase. We pay a small army of accountants, tax-lawyers and consultants to keep up with the ever changing 76,000 pages of tax code. We spend the equivalent of 24 salaries every year on a mountain of bureaucracy and red tape designed to be abused. Now when it is used the creators of the very tax code demonize us.
Canada and The U.S. moved together during the financial meltdown in 2008 with 6.1% unemployment rising to 8% in February of 2009. In the U.S. we incorporated the $timulu$. Unemployment reached over 10% and stayed above 9.5% for nearly 18 months. In Canada unemployment peaked at 8.7% in 2009 and has fallen to 7.4% since. This was due to Canada refusing to follow our ridiculous Keynesian deficit and debt spending mentality. Instead Canada cut corporate tax rates and reduced regulatory cost burdens. Our corporate taxes are nearly 40% including state corporate taxes. Canada's are 16.5% and are to be reduced to 15% next year. Our debt/GDP under Obamanomics is projected to rise from 48% to 81%. Canada's debt will rise only from 23% to 36%. You'll notice Canada adopted an economic principle familiar to us. It's called supply-side economics, it worked again just as it did under Reagan.
If you truly believe the criminals in Washington will fix the tax loopholes, deductions, transfers and all the other manipulations available, your conditioning is complete. As soon as they change it the next math or economics geek from Harvard, MIT or Wharton will just find another option to avoid taxes. The reason Wall Street and the banks get away from the taxation they owe is because they get the geeks, Washington gets Geithner.
A Fair Tax, for both individuals and corporations is the only true solution to tax fairness. It not only eliminates the massive corruption and bureaucracy it also taps into the $1 TRILLION dollar black market, that I'm sure you as a businessman are aware of, that runs free in our society. I have no problem with a timed regressive tax incentive on top of a Fair Tax to promote industries returning to our shores.
Remember, insanity is defined by Einstein as continuing the same action and expecting a different result, yet we continue to submit to it.
Supply side economics is a crock.
Write shorter, people will read it if it's only a few lines.
"Criminal" progressive? I'm an American just like you. What we don't need is polarizing talk like that. It doesn't help us at all.
just to be clear, saying "suppliy side is a crock" is criticising a thing, not a person--I'm not a "criminal" for being progressive.
saxon
the Treasury will have to borrow the money since it is a unsecured debt, with no collateral; in plain words over the last 45 years Congress has taken all the money from all the dedicated funds
This is such a critical point on 2 fronts that most don't even realize it even though it slaps them repeatedly upside the head.
First is the criminal ability of our government to take the people’s money that was supposed to be secured and transfer it to the General Fund. This was a windfall of monumental size for the corruption in our government. We allowed them to use that money and gives us their word that it will be repaid just as they have with their profligate spending and no control over it.
Second is that the uncollateralization of our debt by removing the Gold and Silver standards in 1971 allowed Congress, in collusion with the Fed, to become the counterfeiters of the world. Using a fiat currency, once again guaranteed by nothing more than our word, without collateral restraints our Debt and Unfunded Liabilities exploded. Repeated monetization of our debt and inflating our currency to worthlessness has created the situation we are in.
Yet many here still believe that our government somehow has their best interest in mind. The ratings agencies and our insolvency should be proof of that lie.
Well, isn't this an interesting thread. Unfortunately, most of it is incorrect.
1. We knew we were going to be downgraded if we didn't cut at least 4 Trillion.
2. We had a plan, Cut, Cap, and Balance that would have satisified the rating agencies to maintain our rating.
3. Where is this bill? Tabled in the Senate by Harry Reid.
4. Instead we fight and bicker until the last minute and come up with half a plan.
5. This plan passes.
6. We are downgraded.
7. There should be no surprise this has happened. We were warned.
8. So if the Senate and the White House would have passed Cut, Cap and Balance, we wouldn't by typing on this thread.
9. Therefore, the Democratic heavy Senate and Obama are to blame for this.
10. It just goes to show, votes in the next election are more important than taking care of our country. How do you feel now, Citizens of America? You are not as important as a VOTE! A VOTE for candidates only interested in their re-election. Not in doing the right thing for the people of the United States.
Additionally, it would be great if those same people who caused the downgrade would STOP trying to copy failed European policies. We can see it unraveling over there RIGHT now, yet they will not back down and stop copying them. WAKE UP!!!
There is sooo much that can be cut, yet we have everyone only talking about certain items. Why aren't you talking about duplication in govt. services, fraud, give aways to other countries, entitlements to Illegals. Wasted money on research like that article earlier this week surveying what ethnic groups visit National Parks. Who cares! The Parks are there to preserve nature, not to make sure all ethnic groups visit the park. One poster did have a great idea concerning making everything in govt. cut back by 11%. I lost 13% of my wages and I got by. Why not 13%? They make so much more than I do, it shouldn't be a problem.
Saxon, it isn't the Treasury that borrows money, it is the Fed that sells bonds to investors. With the down grade of the credit rating of the U.S. thanks to the Teapublicans in congress, credit rates will be higher now, and the bonds won'tbe worth as much as they were before.
Alan is right. The dirty secret is that the banksters are given money that they loan back to Uncle Sam for a profit. They own over 1.18 Trillion of Treasuries, bought with money given to them by Uncle Sam (who charges the federal discount rate to smaller banks and gives money to the "too big to fail" banks). BOYCOTT BIG BANKS.
http://www.standardandpoors.com/servlet/BlobServer?blobheadername3=MDT-Type&blobcol=urldata&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobheadervalue2=inline%3B+filename%3DUS_Downgraded_AA%2B.pdf&blobheadername2=Content-Disposition&blobheadervalue1=application%2Fpdf&blobkey=id&blobheadername1=content-type&blobwhere=1243942957443&blobheadervalue3=UTF-8
We lowered our long-term rating on the U.S. because we believe that the prolonged controversy over raising the statutory debt ceiling and the related fiscal policy debate indicate that further near-term progress containing the growth in public spending, especially on entitlements, or on reaching an agreement on raising revenues is less likely than we previously assumed and will remain a contentious and fitful process. We also believe that the fiscal consolidation plan that Congress and the Administration agreed to this week falls short of the amount that we believe is necessary to stabilize the general government debt burden by the middle of the decade.
Directly from their website. The fault is with FEDGOV, both parties.
In addition:
Standard & Poor's takes no position on the mix of spending and revenue.
...
Republicans and Democrats have only been able to agree to relatively modest savings on discretionary spending while delegating to the Select Committee decisions on more comprehensive measures.
When Uncle Sam borrows so much, is it any wonder you can't get a small busn loan?
S & P, Moody's and Fitch are all afraid of retaliation from the Feds. Just a few days ago, Trump, who said he knew many of the people at S&P, predicted they did not have the guts to downgrade, due to fear of Uncle Sam. I think he is wrong on many issues, but not on this one. The Republicans and the Dems are spendthrifts. That is the debt problem. They buy power, influence and personal wealth with other people's money and by mortgaging the future of this nation.
SmBusOwnerinNY
I'm not a "criminal" for being progressive.
You do realize that our system of taxation is called a progressive system right? The tax rate increases as the tax base increases. This is opposed to a regressive tax system. This has nothing to do with your politic. it's how a tax system is identified.
Supply side economics is a crock
ROTFLMAO!
Your demonization of supply-side, and not understanding what a progressive tax system is, is beginning to make me doubt your claim of being a business owner. Perhaps you haven't reached a threshold where the Laffer curve obliterates the irrational explanation Steve Stofts gives in his incomplete and non-factual analysis of Reagonomics.
Regardless of your beliefs I'll take Reagan's 93 straight months of growth over anyone elses alleged graphic postulates. Other than GWHB's mistake of "read my lips" it created 25 years of wealth and prosperity that has yet to be rivaled.
Cut, Cap, and Balance is dead. As it SHOULD be.
Its pretty obvious that NONE of its proponents here have even read the bill. The language of the bill is RIDDLED with counter-constitutional ideology. Meaning that as written, it could NOT be entered into law to be ratified by the individual states. Particularly:
SEC. 301. REQUIREMENT THAT BBA BE SUBMITTED TO STATES.
(a) In General- The Secretary of the Treasury shall not exercise the additional borrowing authority under subsection (b) of section 3101 of title 31, United States Code until the date that the Archivist of the United States transmits to the States S.J. Res. 10 as introduced on March 31, 2011, a balanced budget amendment to the Constitution, or a similar amendment provided it requires that total outlays not exceed total receipts, that contains a spending limitation as a percentage of GDP, and requires that tax increases be approved by a super-majority vote in both houses of Congress, for their ratification.
(b) Amendment to Title 31- Effective on the date that the Archivist of the United States transmits to the States S.J. Res. 10, a balanced budget amendment to the Constitution, or a similar amendment provided it requires that total outlays not exceed total receipts, that contains a spending limitation as a percentage of GDP, and requires that tax increases be approved by a super-majority vote in both houses of Congress, for their ratification, subsection (b) of section 3101 of title 31, United States Code, is amended by striking the dollar limitation contained in such subsection and inserting $16,700,000,000,000.
The bit that states:
is what insured that it had NO CHANCE of passing the Senate, and Boehner KNEW it. He was trying to pass the blame for a potential default onto Obama, knowing Reid would make sure it would never reach his desk. So instead, he passed the buck to McConnell. Which is why McConnell went scrambling to Biden for help finding some way out:
http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=1193B83C-6B06-4EC6-843F-E564DBB7BA5A
Unfortunately for McConnell, Boehner, and the rest of the GOP, its not likely they'll get any more help from the White House after this mess.
Especially after his vow to FOX News that the GOP would hold future debt ceiling debates hostage:
http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2011/08/01/285025/mcconnell-vows-to-hold-debt-ceiling-hostage-again/
Not very bright Mitch. Not very bright at all.
Reagan tripled the deficit with spending which is why the economy was on the rise during his term. Now the same idiots that support Reagan's policies criticize Obama spending even though they are for the same purpose of stimulating the economy. Go figure.
Regardless of your beliefs I'll take Reagan's 93 straight months of growth over anyone elses alleged graphic postulates.
Then you must advocate tripling the national debt like Reagan did too. And before you start with the "democrats controlled congress" line, remember that he wanted more and congress refused.
Oh and Reagan also increased revenues by the way, I wonder what he would think of Mr. Norquist.
For the Reaganites:
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/reagan-insider-gop-destroyed-us-economy-2010-08-10?pagenumber=1
In which the writer points out that David Stockman, President Ronald Reagan's director of the Office of Management and Budget warned of this a year ago:
Stockman rushes into the ring swinging like a boxer: "If there were such a thing as Chapter 11 for politicians, the Republican push to extend the unaffordable Bush tax cuts would amount to a bankruptcy filing. The nation's public debt ... will soon reach $18 trillion." It screams "out for austerity and sacrifice." But instead, the GOP insists "that the nation's wealthiest taxpayers be spared even a three-percentage-point rate increase."
And here we are, almost one year later to the day.
Reaganomics does NOT work.
Class dismissed.
For those of the non-"I need FOX News to tell me what to think" denomination:
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal/2011_08/a_timeline_of_events031362.php
@ Alan O. they passed Obamacare and it is definitely unconstitutional and they are still writing thousands more pages to explain the original 2000 pages. so what's your point?
Part of S&P’s concern about the U.S. Triple-A credit status stems from the $14.3T hole we’re in, $4.3T of which has happened under Obama’s watch. Fresh concern, though, stems from having their $4T min. deficit reduction in 10 years ‘line in the sand’ ignored by the majority of the Congress, and the President’s attitude. For example the President said, ‘I’ll veto a bill if I have to give up my choochoo’.
Obama ignored the commissions recomendations and report!
I didn't notice many of their recommendations in the republican proposals. Obama did back the "Gang of 7" proposals, which had 4 REPUBLICAN senators and 3 democrats. T-Party was the one saying NO to everything reasonable.
have you bothered to read the "Affordable Care Act"? Or even follow up on what its done thus far? Reading is fundamental:
http://www.pahealthaccess.org/blog/consumers-tell-real-story-affordable-care-act
http://maineinsights.com/perma/affordable-care-act-saves-12-billion
http://www.americasfairhealthcare.org/
http://therapists2go.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=59:health-care-reform-in-action&catid=36:industry-news
Google is your friend. Try using it. Because I could easily point you to a hundred more ACTUAL examples.
You know why the GOP hates it, and lies through their teeth about it? Because it WORKS for "We the People" above "big healthcare business" by bringing their profits down a notch, and because a democratic president implemented it.
Your "constitutional" argument is just blatant idiocy. And MANY cases that tried to have it repealed on that basis, all FAILED:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act
Try again with an argument that isn't fundamentally flawed right from the start.
How many Democrat sheep heads exploded when they couldn't find Bush's name on the list of "who to blame"?
Alan O.-3429365
David Stockton? Theeeee David Stockton?
The same David Stockton who has changed his position on Reaganomics 4 times?
The same David Stockton who was found guilty of fraud of the same company he created and was CEO and somehow $13 million dollars dissapeared and 15,000 employeessuffered losses before the SEC began an investigation?
I think if you're going to hold class you should research your sources a little better.
Maroon!
Got any links to these alleged "flip flops"? Hes not the only one to say it over the years either:
http://ataxingmatter.blogs.com/tax/2008/07/reagans-trickle.html
http://money.usnews.com/money/blogs/capital-commerce/2008/10/21/obama-why-reaganomics-didnt-work-spread-the-wealth
http://www.politicalhotwire.com/economy-business/39258-lie-reaganomics-why-deficits-matter.html
Need any more?
Reaganomics doesn't work. Even less so when coupled with the Bush tax cuts. So when one of the people who so closely helped to implement the model condemns it with so much credible support, their opinion tends to carry a bit of validity. We've been feeding the top for 30 years, and all they've trickled down is sh!t.
I never rely on a single source. B+ for the effort though.
Here markmich,
A little "remedial reading" for you, about the alleged "conviction" you actually know NOTHING about:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/10/business/10stockman.html
Lesson of the day: "indictment" does NOT mean "convicted".
Sorry, but after careful consideration, I find it necessary to "downgrade" you from B+ to "F".
LOL
Alan O It is NOT working. So far all we have is an acceleration on the increase of premiums. It is very much hurting the small employers RIGHT NOW. You cannot add more people, more benefits and cost less. (And all we added so far is kids to 26) Here is an example> Our business just went through our renewal. One of the companies sends rates for every employee, spouse, and child. 19 year old employee on single coverage - $89.00 a month. 19 year old child on parents plan - $132 a month. These kids are equally healthy. (Oh this is for an HSA with a $5000 deductible. This is an age banded policy, so all the older folks were charged much, much more than this. We didn't take this policy, but are now maxed out on deductible so we didn't have to take a 20% increase on last year's policy. We couldn't protest the increase as that part of the bill doesn't kick in until Sept 23. Last year we lost our PPO as all premiums for small employers DOUBLED after the bill was signed and we couldn't afford the 31% increase. Even going to an HSA was an 18% increase. Increases before the bill were 14% or less for the last 4 years. We lost our Grandfathered status, contrary to what our President said. We are trying desperately to hold on to 2014 and will probably drop everyone at that time and hope the exchange is more affordable. We can't drop now as the list of pre-existing conditions have grown larger, and several of the employees/spouses would not be able to get personal coverage, AND cannot apply to the high risk pool until they have been without insurance for 6 months! For some, it would mean bankruptcy or death. Yea, this is a great program - NOT NOT NOT!!! I receive pages of updates on this every month from an independent professional, and this is a disaster in the making.
Alan O,
Great job!!!! I can't believe that guy hasn't already been banned. I call him out a lot for lying, but I didn't know much about Stockton. Obviously he didn't either.
then you're doing something wrong. Or you got shafted somewhere along the way. None of the small businesses in my area are having any issues. Is your accountant getting you the full tax credit? Or claiming all related deductions your business is eligible for?
And who exactly is this "independent professional" you're getting these "updates" from?
I often find a lack of sufficient information "suspect and questionable".
Alan, you do realize that things are different, state to state? All of the small businesses in my area are having problems, and have been taking it up with our Legislator, who is actually listening.
Second, I don't have his name here at home, as I receive the newsletter at work, and we will be off this thread by then.
Third, the tax credit for small businesses is a joke. It reduces the % in 3 categories. And all that happens is it lowers the estimated taxes for the Officers of the company for the next year. Our "credit" only amounted to 3 months worth of the increase we received last year. (Also, one of those charts said our family employees had "rich" insurance, based on the monthly premium. There is nothing "rich" about an insurance plan that has a minimum $5000 per individual, $10000 family (embedded) in network deductible before it starts paying.
We have few alternatives left to us at this time. We could pay for only employees and force those with spouses, or families to pay the balance, or simply offer nothing for dependents. Or we could decrease the amount the company pays to the minimum allowed by the State for our company size. (We are currently at 35% employee contribution.) Or we could lay people off. None of these are good and/or fair for our employees or in the long run helps the company. We have some here who would quit if we had to drop our plan, as they would have to find another company offering insurance. Unfortunately for them, we're not living in an area where many companies are hiring that offer insurance. It is sad the govt. feels it is right and good to interfere with company benefits. Health Care is our most important BENEFIT to the employees, and the govt. is undermining our ability to continue to offer this benefit.
Our business has weathered the recession as we're not stupid enough to follow Washington's advice to max out our credit on fool's errands. (We didn't need credit either, we have more than we need to do business.) But we are by no means out of the woods, we have no reason to believe that we are on any type of upswing. Nor do we plans to hire any workers. We don't have work for them to do. If that changes, we will be choosing carefully who we hire full time.
I attended a meeting with 400 fellow HR managers from all size companies in 2010. After the meeting, the consensus was that everyone would be dropping and the large companies would be paying the fine, as it would be cheaper than the new plan. (Especially if unemployment remains high, since it would be less likely employees would "jump ship" for another company that still offered insurance.) Since then, I've had other occasion to meet with fellow HR managers and nothing has changed. As each month passes, the news gets worse. Oddly enough you speak of "suspect and questionable" information, yet your posts have no facts of any kind. Everything I've related to you is first hand information. Just because it doesn't follow your mindset doesn't make it false. So, either bring on helpful facts, or stay home. I'm not impressed with your vague generalities. It appears I know more than you do about this as far as the small employer portion of this is concerned.
Alan O.
Agree whole heartedly regarding the BBA in Cut, Cap and Balance as well as the second Boehner version. People were jumping on board with the balanced budget Amendment without having any clue of it's implications.
If by some peculiar quirk, it did manage to get approved by Congress and then somehow ratified by the States, it would be one of the most destructive measures ever enacted. This would have enabled a mere 1/3rd of either House to throw the government into default. As few as 34 of the 535 members of Congress could legally destroy the country and/or use the debt ceiling issue as blackmail to get what ever they wanted. Worse yet, had Congress not approved it for submittable to the States, it would have immediately shut down any further debt ceiling increases until the Amendment as designed was approved. It was definitely a blackmail type scenario. Anyone who voted for these bills was either very stupid or they knew full well the destructive nature of what they were proposing. This Amendment would have given unprecedented, veto proof, power to just a very small minority. The language calls for two thirds approval of both Houses for any future debt ceiling increase, which means just one third of either can stop it. And being stopped, there would be no passed bill to be vetoed. This was an extremely dangerous Amendment as designed. The people who had wrote these bills, very carefully crafted the language and it's true meaning was deceptively disguised. Either they did so simply for political points knowing the Senate wouldn't pass it, or they had every intention of bringing down the government.
Yet many people on this board and in polling supported the BBA in Cut, Cap and Balance. I sure most people had no concept of what they were getting behind.
Alan, you do realize that things are different, state to state? All of the small businesses in my area are having problems, and have been taking it up with our Legislator, who is actually listening.
Yes, I do. Which is why I asked you the questions I did. And you just addressed the actual issue yourself. The problem is your state. And instead of fighting the state legislation, you expect the rest of the country that isn't having an issue to change for the sake of your state. Probably because your legislator doesn't like the plan because it cuts into his own business' profit margin. You probably do know a bit more about it than I do, since I likely don't live in your state. However, that's what I pay an accountant for.
Second, I don't have his name here at home, as I receive the newsletter at work, and we will be off this thread by then.
How convenient. Does your browser not allow bookmarking?
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The people who had wrote these bills, very carefully crafted the language and it's true meaning was deceptively disguised.
Most people don't bother reading an entire bill. Which is profoundly stupid, because once signed into law, it could have a huge impact on their lives for as long as it exists. Many bills contain what are known as "riders". Which are usually some small piece of legislation, having nothing to do with the proposed law the bill was written for. Riders are the "trade-off" agreement between legislators to garner votes for the base bill.
That's what the "Balance" part of the Boehner bill was. A rider included to garner the Tea Party votes he needed to get it passed out of the House. The bill was brought to the floor three times, because Boehner couldn't get the needed votes without the BBA that not even HE wanted to include, until he was obviously left with no choice, and caved.
Its funny. Republicans have been trying to change (if not eliminate entirely) Social Security and Medicare for decades. Programs that were fully solvent until the Bush tax cuts removed TRILLIONS of dollars in revenue from the equation over the past 10 years.
The biggest mistake was adding Medicare Part D without affording ANY revenue to pay for it. Just like Afghanistan. And then Iraq. But we can't undo history. So we need to rebuild our way out from under it. And the obstructionists need to get the hell out of the way.
responding to markmich up at 1.161
Sorry, I read your post quickly (tooooo long) and though you called me a "criminal progressive" rather than the progressive tax system "criminal." Fine, believe what you want, but unless people that can pay more do pay more the redistribution of wealth will continue until the system implodes and we have rioting in the streets. History is full of this crap (think Marie Antwinette, Batista, the Shah of Iran). It's just STUPID for a society to design it's own demise. going so far into debt is part of that, but preventing one of the paths out (no tax increases, never!), especially sparing the people who DID QUITE WELL during the run up of the debt, is just DUMB.
USA1 that is true and not ture. Offically it's at 35%, while 75% pay no tax's. I do believe that this is wrong, I said end the loop holes make them pay some tax's. You cut the loopholes but you shrink the amount to about 20% which is what the rest of the world pays, what do you get when big companys can't get a bailout from washington cornies, and you charge a rate that smaller coporations can afford to pay. More tax revenue.
Don't get me wrong guys it makes me furious when I see GE get bailout money and pay 0 tax's. That is why I don't want higher rates but a look at our huge tax code and a change in our structure.
Yes, supply side is a crock. If it worked the way they said it would--the whole Laffer curve business--we would have NO debt. That was the argument in 1980--if you LOWER taxes, you will MORE than make up the tax revenue BECAUSE of higher growth. Higher growth happened, sure, but the tax revenue didn't make up for it, did it? All we got was a larger income disparity, AND huge debt.
During Clinton, we had high growth and (slightly) higher taxes. Voila: reduced debt. (not really reduced in a monetary sense, but economic growth outpaced borrowing so that debt to GDP ration declined).
tommy, if you think a complete reworking of the tax code isn't going to benefit JUST the people who have the money and power to lobby the crap out of congress, and NOT BENEFIT YOU (or the rest of us lowly citizens), I've got a $5trillion dollar bill to sell you...
The tax code needs to be rebuilt in an honest, fair manner.
The biggest hurdle will be the republicans in congress (yes, the very same ones who "say" they support tax reform) who simply DO NOT want Washington to see ANY revenue whatsoever.
The bottom line is this:
If you put the utmost priority for tax reform into truly fair balance (such as a "flat" tax rate) between Wall Street and Main Street, Wall Street will STILL pay more than Main Street by virtue of greater income volume.
And republicans WILL fight that. Watch and see. They'll want a rate LOWER than what Washington needs to function in the current atmosphere, AND lower than everyone else, because that's largely what they've enjoyed thanks to the Bush tax cuts.
This whole "super-committee" process needs to be open and televised. The American people need to play a role in this committee, and be able to directly engage with their representatives during the entire process, to FORCE congress to maintain adherence to fairness and balance.
Don't let them close the door on this. Don't let them hide what they're doing from the American people. And just maybe, we'll be able to restore America's (and the rest of the world's) faith in its political system. If you see your representatives at town halls during this recess, DEMAND that they speak your voice in Washington for an open committee process.
We deserve to see what these people are deciding on our behalf, without them shoving words down our throats, that in reality belong to corporate lobbyists.
Alan... I don't exactly agree but you make an excellent point.:
This whole "super-committee" process needs to be open and televised. The American people need to play a role in this committee, and be able to directly engage with their representatives during the entire process, to FORCE congress to maintain adherence to fairness and balance.
Don't let them close the door on this. Don't let them hide what they're doing from the American people. And just maybe, we'll be able to restore America's (and the rest of the world's) faith in its political system. If you see your representatives at town halls during this recess, DEMAND that they speak your voice in Washington for an open committee process.
I agree totally with that.. But it was the Dems that promised Open and Fair during the Health care debate... Closed door deals was the response... Pelose: "vote for it to see whats in it." What???? "I didn't read the Bill" Huh??? The Dems controlled both houses for 2 years... Can't blame the Republicans for doing what the Dems do if the Situation was reversed.
@ Aubs (comments further down board) that's call governing... Obama had 2 years to "get 98% of what we wanted" Pelosi took a year to "pass, backdoor deal, health care. Boehner took 3 months... Who is the more effective leader?
It is all a sham, for sure, Flame.
The Transparency is not clear nor transparent.
@ notso.....yep....it is .... Both parties do have a habit for playing the "shell game" with Taxpayer money.... I researched something that is a little depressing but true:
Current Census: 312 million
1 trillion in Tarp II divided evenly between EVERY us citizen (minus 250,000 crowd) just over 3 grand a piece...(including children) Where is my Check?.... oh yeah..... Auto companies got it.... Banks got it.... They froze my pay but the Congress got a pay raise.... (good grief)
But it was the Dems that promised Open and Fair during the Health care debate
Actually, it was Pelosi who initially suggested on Saturday that the committee be open for public scrutiny:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/07/pelosi-calls-for-super-co_n_920462.html
The work of this Committee will affect all Americans, and its deliberations should be open the press, to the public and webcast. Any acceptance of the Committee proposal will be dependent on the ability of the American people to fully view its proceedings.
And I concur.
I want to touch on the kind of ridiculous legislature that's coming from the House. Particularly, H.R. 25 (aka: Fair Tax Act of 2011):
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-112hr25ih/pdf/BILLS-112hr25ih.pdf
Note the header especially:
A BILL To promote freedom, fairness, and economic opportunity by repealing the income tax and other taxes, abolishing the Internal Revenue Service, and enacting a national sales tax to be administered primarily by the States.
and then this:
18 (f) FINDINGS RELATING TO REPEAL OF PRESENT19 FEDERAL TAX SYSTEM.—Congress further finds that the 20 16th amendment to the United States Constitution should 21 be repealed.
After reading that, you have to read ‘‘SEC. 101. IMPOSITION OF SALES TAX" in its entirety.
Seriously. This is the kind of junk legislature that will further widen the income disparity gap. And theres TONS of junk like this these "freshmen" have been trying to push through since they started. And you can find it all right here:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/d?d112:0:./list/bss/d112HR.lst:
Go check it out for an afternoon of comedy reading that's costing ALL of us millions of dollars a year.
Republican/TP must be acknowledged for their brilliance: They achieved 100% of what they wanted.
1. No additional taxes on the wealthiest 2% (including closing the so-called yacht/private jet loophole) so they have delivered the promises made to their donor base.
2. A debt ceiling increase to ensure military contractors continue to get paid.
3. A majority of citizens believing that its better to relinquish social security and Medicare than to raise revenues on the super rich.
5. Higher interest rates to deliver more profits to banks.
4. And a credit rating decrease so they can blame Obama.
To all the ignorant fools that just have to support their party like it's their home team. Anyone who thinks that one administration was the cause of the current financial crisis is in need of some serious help. The starting point of the serious economic issues the entire world is dealing with was the deregulation of the financial system. It has culminated currently with the monies handed out to the banks that screwed the system in the first place.
Investment bankers who were allowed to take risks, manipulated the system when they created derivatives using sub-prime mortgages. These were derivatives that were rated AAA. Triple A investment opportunity purchasing mortgages that were given to people barely making minimum wage. The United States is now rated lower than the sub-prime monopoly money banks were selling all over the world.
Regular banks that were supposed to protect your money gambled it away when regulations were eased. Loans were granted to people that couldn't even pay their rent. Retirement accounts gambled away. All the things American citizens worked so hard to attain was thrown away by a bunch of high profile gamblers that created a "can't lose" system for themselves. Millions of lives either ruined or downgraded because a handful of creative thinkers robbed them blind.
This didn't happen overnight. This has been going on for the last decade or more. No administration did anything to stop it because the market was going through the roof thanks to the trickle down effect. Construction companies building more homes, lumber companies, concrete, roofing, appliance manufacturers etc, etc, etc.......all making more money than they ever dreamed of. All riding the wave, the wave that was created on paper only. The paper wave that paid bonuses to all of these crooks. Hell, even the bonuses were paid from the fake financial gains. Everything was only on paper until it came time for bank executives to cash "their" checks.
All political parties grabbed on to the paper and rode that wave. They shook hands and patted each other on the back every time the stock market went up. 10,000----11,000----do I hear 12,000, the Dow went up and nobody questioned why. Even after the Savings and Loan debacle during the Reagan administration or the tech bubble during Clinton's, not to mention Enron. They were all brilliant, that's it. We don't need to know exactly how they got there and if we do we will just take them for their word. You will never be able to determine why something so good went so bad unless you already understand why it was so good. Just think about that for a minute.
In the mean time nobody is talking about the fact that none of these crooks were brought to justice. The "Too Big To Fail" behemoths rule Washington. We all vote just to put a representative on Capitol Hill that represents nothing. They are just window dressing. The lobbyists have finally done it, they run Washington completely or at least every facet that involves money.
The people running this country aren't Americans because last I checked Americans took pride in this country. That pride has been sold to the highest bidder (probably foreign). Screwing the masses and benefiting the few. Greed will only go so far when there is nothing left to spend your money on. NAFTA, the "take all the good jobs and move them overseas" initiative has worked out well for the major corporations. Not so good for the kid that didn't go to college for whatever reason.
We don't need manufacturing jobs because every single child in America is going to go to college and the one's that can't will memorize phrases such as, "Welcome to McDonald's, can I take your order?" The college graduates will work for Google and Facebook until all the advertising revenue dries up because there aren't enough people making enough money to purchase the products.
All those wonderful manufacturing jobs, you know, the jobs people had a decade ago. The jobs that generated taxes through payroll. The jobs that stimulated the economy when Mr. Smith purchased his house the right way, bought a car, took the family on vacation. That was the same Mr. Smith that got a job out of high school after learning a skill like machining, mechanic, wood working etc. Skills that won't do you much good these days because those jobs are gone.
We talk about political parties, we love to discuss the importance of religion, both of which are fantasies. Human beings are the gods and the face of the political system. We know what's right and what's wrong but refuse to live our lives that way. Wars are fought over stories that were told thousands of years ago or they are fought over the resources a country may have. In other words, wars are fought over religion, greed or both.
The United States, the only country without a concrete belief system. The country was founded by Christians and the way of life was Christian. Now this wonderful melting pot we created is out of control because everyone has their own way of doing things and the United States will not deny you that right. In fact we have created laws for that purpose. We have created a handout system that pretty much makes sure you will stay even when there is nothing else available to you. If you aren't born and bred in the United States you are treated better by our Federal Government than the person who is actually allowed to vote. Free college tuition to foreign students. Open a business tax free for the first several years and when times up, put it in your brothers name and start the process all over.
This country became the Superpower it was not because of politicians or your church pastor, It became the greatest country in the world because of the hard working men and women in this country. We worked hard, paid our taxes and built the stable environment we have stood on since the great depression. Regulations were put in place that cost corporations a lot of money to do business here. They moved those jobs overseas where there are barely any regulations but then allow them to import these products back to the US. Hypocrisy is the term they use to replace Pride.
Work hard and save your money for what exactly? To pay off your own debt or the debt of this country. Either way you are broke while a handful of "mature adults" that managed your money will survive no matter what country they move to because you know they sure as hell aren't going to stay in this soon to be third world country.
Jumping off my soapbox and brushing up on my Chinese.
@ Alan O He is an ERISA attorney. (And No, I'm not publishing his name, I don't have his permission.) Due to the nature of my job, I don't take that work home with me. And I subscribed to this newsletter through my E mail, so no, it is not bookmarked in my browser.
And by the way, you didn't bring any facts to the conversation, just as I knew you wouldn't. It is not all my State's fault. In some ways, my state was run by the same Demo-stupid folks as the govt. Now we are doing something about that, as their actions have hurt the entire state. It is sad that I've had to become politically active in an attempt to help my employees. It is yet another govt. influenced diversion from my actual job. The govt., state and federal are out of control and it is time to reign them in. The recent events with the budget is yet another example. If not for the Tea Party, things would be worse than they are now. Yet all the idiots are blaming the Tea Party instead of the true culprits....Harry Reid and the White House, they were the real party of NO.
I gave you plenty of evidence which you chose to ignore.
Yet here you are, STILL making excuses to avoid backing up your claims. You don't have any pens or pencils at your place of business? Is it too hard to write down the link to this "newsletter" you allege to read in your emails?
Your problem is you KNOW that as soon as you provide that information, I'll hammer you on it by finding its right-wing connections who pay BIG money to plaster their blather all over the web.
Enough excuses. Put up, or shut up.
No you won't. Your response shows your ignorance, how many right-wing ERISA attorneys do you know???? Me??? - Zero. I'm not giving out my E mail information to satisfy your trolling. Moving on. You've already wasted too much of my time distracting me away from what really important here.
Just so you know, the newsletter contains info from him, and links to various articles concerning the topic. From other professionals, and the US govt. not from agenda-driven trolls like you.
LOL.... I figured as much. So now you'll do the only thing you can do.... shut up and go away, because your time has been "wasted".
You can't provide a simple link to a newsletter (or even the articles you SAY it provides credible links to), yet insist you have all the facts on your side? LOL
You're done. Goodbye and have a nice day!
John Boehner: “We got 98% of what we wanted.”
Canada and Japan have had the same thing happen and they recovered that rating. I still say that this radical tea party has paralyzed even there republican base. Who has never made a compromise? I look forward to the primaries! This has to end.
I don't see how it can be anyone but the tea party gop to blame. Their stubborness held as solid as steel on the idea of no new revenue—regardless of what norquist said. Remember Cantor saying they'll talk loopholes but only if we cut taxes to offset the new revenue. Which is like being in a sinking ship and having someone agree to help bail out the water only if they can replace it with new water.
Meanwhile, Obama even put the big 3 on the table...to the disgust of his base this close to an election. I don't see how blame for this could be placed anywhere but them. They got what they wanted though...and I guess that's all that matters.
Thanks for the information. I totally agree with your comment and i consider the Tea Party like a cult. They believe whatever they make up. Dangerous to Democracy.
sickandtired -- What has Geithner got to do with the TEA Party? Didn't see any mention of 'tax evading' politicians in S&P's downgrade.
S&P certainly highlighted the fact that negotiation and compromise is not possible with the current Congressional membership. Don't worry we'll change that and maybe fix our government rating in the process.
If this is the hope and change you were looking for then you got it.
I agree, virtually no change at all. What, then, does that say about their republican predecessors?
Bet the rating will go back up when we get the teabaggers out of our government.
Doubt it not with the defcits Obama preidcted to be running on the next several years, and those predictions are on a 3% growth, we wont' get half of that this year, that I believe was also a factor.
Has far has tax's go we don't need to hike up rates, what we need is to fix the code. Right now the code is made to get polticians re-elected and not gain revenue. More then half of americans don't pay tax's (and I do believe we have Bush to blame for that) , we need to make sure everyone puts a little into the system. 10% should be plenty and it's on everybody and everything they make, no loopholes.
Tea Party politics is to blame, but so are Republicans for accepting these radicals into their fold and embracing their ideas. "Normal" Republican conservatives sold out. They know that if they treated the Tea Party like a third party, Republicans would be the losers. The Tea Party wasn't competing for Democratic positions, they were after Republican seats. Make a three party division and Democrats then have the largest body in Congress. The trouble is, nobody would have a controlling majority. Republicans would have to negotiate with Democrats because there is no negotiating with the Tea Party. The beast is the problem, but Republicans welcomed the beast into their house and now they are afraid it will eat them.
You've been listening to too much Murdoch Media.
Government spending as a % of GDP went DOWN during Clinton, UP during Bush, and has been FALLING since Obama took office:
You might also want to note the drop in spending during the decade prior to the Great Depression and ponder the meaning of that.
What?: You know, I'll be reading along, and there are these opinions. Some are well informed, some are emotionally based, most are easy enough to take with a shrug and a, "most people don't have time to really watch everything that's been happening." And then there is this odor, and you realize someone that has been breathing the toxic sludge of Fox Propaganda enters the thread, and all the life just goes right out of it. Thanks for ruining another thread for me. I need to shower now.
Government spending as a % of GDP went DOWN during Clinton, UP during Bush, and has been FALLING since Obama took office:
I opened up the link you provided and found out that spending as a percent of GDP during the Bush years was mostly in the 33-35% range; spending during the Clinton years was mostly in the 32-33% range and spending in the Obama administration is 38-40%. Spending did spike to 41% in 2009 because of the stimulus so you are correct in a lawyerly sort of way, but your post is very misleading. I encourage everyone to open your link and examine the numbers themselves.
I know you are trying to score political points, but misleading posts don't do anyone any good.
Real American: Government spending went DOWN during Clinton's term because there was a Republican Majority in Congress. Spending went UP during Bush's term because there was a Democratic Majority in Congress. A Democratic Majority of which Obama was a member. So if he wants to point fingers and blame, he can blame his party and himself.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think it's the Presidents job to write budgets nor author bills. He does however have veto power.
Didn't say it was the President's job. It is Congress's job. Obama was in Congress remember? Maybe that's why Bush wanted a line item veto available.
Still haven't read the article. By the way, How many clicks ("cliques") does it take to collapse one of them comments "by the community"?
ER (Emergency Room)
If I'm brought in hemmoraging from a "gunshot" wound (and "what's up with that?) and I broke my knee when I fell down the stairs from it and I get to the ER and a "Physician's Assistant" shoves the Doctor out of the way to insist that I need an emergency amputation of "from that broken knee-down", as first priority.........if I haven't been drugged to near/or oblivion..........Someone's getting a straightforward "kick in the teeth", from me, with my one and only remaining 'Good Leg", at that time!!! SORRY. (reverently, not remorsefully)
Political Clean Slate: If you were in office in 2000- "GET OUT!!!" (Reps & Dems)
the S&P warned .. without revenue .. cuts wont work .. its basic economics ..you cant grow by reduceing revenue .. thus the old saying .. money goes to money.. you have to spend some to get some .. the businessmen I know in my community did not become successful by shrinking there business .. some in the tea party have proven that they have no business sense Bachmann can be forgiven she does not have a brain larger than a tea bag .. Gethner will resign when Bachman gets a brain
Independent,
I never saw the S&P say anything about revenue...what I saw was they wanted a 10 year deficit reduction plan in at least the $4 Trillion range.
the problem with blaming the tea party is that it is just another 'party' to blame...
I can guarantee that YOU know the answer... so do i... We do it every day in our homes...
1. cut out the unessential govt programs first so we can understand what is absolutely needed, (any further solutions based upon a 'false' expense report is a waste of time). and if a govt program is 'self sustaining' and or not truly costing the taxpayers money, then leave it alone... i.e. Social Security.... this is a big issue, I know, but it is an independant issue that has been abused by generation of politicians, D's and R's....
2. figure out if the 'essential' expenses are at the bare bones, (electricitiy is essential in our homes, but maybe we can raise the temperature of the AC in the summer and lower the heat in the winter?) US has to do the same thing... along with making sure the method and handling of those 'essential' expenses is done in the most fiduciarily responsible way... no need for accountibility if it is costing $0.50 on the dollar just to be 'accountible'...
3. Trim the budgets for elected officials... no cars, no per diem, no new offices, no new computers, no new phones. in fact cut back on the office staff of elected officials...
4. examine all the expenses to make sure/ascertain that the money is going to the actual program and not the administration of that program, and if possible scale back on the administration...
5.then and after all the expenses are trimmed and cut back, then determine if the revenue is adequate for the expenses planned, and if not, increase the revenue... raise taxes, etc...
how is it that most American families that have had to deal with recent economy issues and changes in life can understand these basics but our representatives can't... We need change.. we need fresh blood... no more lawyers for govt reps... they know how to massage and dance and manipulate everything to thier advantage perspective... and that gets maligned and used by whatever media source and then absorbed and contested by every reader...
blame game is over... cut, cut, cut, cut cut cut cut cut cut cut, and then tax tax tax... period...
the sooner we pull the band aid off the better... the more money we pay banks for money we use the less we can spend on things we are accustomed to...
DUH? WINNING!
Laughable that Bachmann wants Geithner to resign--she's one of the congresspeople who are responsible for the downgrade by her no compromise practices. She's the one who should resign! And indeed....the TP/GOP "brand" has only begun to suffer as citizens of this country see what their "representatives" have done. We need a balanced approach of both taxes and cuts, as well as a plan to bring back jobs to our struggling citizens! Anyone who thinks otherwise is irresponsible and should not hold any public office. And by the way, "Duck, Dodge and Dismantle" is not going to fix the economy--it will only make it worse!
"We have met the enemy and he is us!" Pogo by Walt Kelly
ron .. the S&p said there had to be a balanced approach they dont believe this plan is large enough ..I agree they wanted to seee 4T$... I take that to mean cuts and revenue .. maybe im wrong.. but.. can any gov or family reduce there debt without revenue .. you cant cut your way to success..
Ooh..........GO! independent jim!!!! Go! Go! ("Thank Ya!!!) by Mississippi John Hurt- LIVE and interactive on "You Are My Sunshine" No kidding! Love that song!!!!!!!!! My grandmother used to sing it to me!!!!!!!!!
Political Clean Slate: If you were in office in 2000- "GET OUT!!!" (Reps & Dems)
Independent,
I went to the S&P site, and they did mention revenue as a possible part of the equation. Their official statement was very long so I won't post it here, but this is the first paragraph in the "Rationale" section: (btw, I'm posting this for info only since I think it's good for everyone to think about...I'm not attempting to make a pro/con political statement)
We lowered our long-term rating on the U.S. because we believe that theprolonged controversy over raising the statutory debt ceiling and the relatedfiscal policy debate indicate that further near-term progress containing thegrowth in public spending, especially on entitlements, or on reaching anagreement on raising revenues is less likely than we previously assumed andwill remain a contentious and fitful process. We also believe that the fiscalconsolidation plan that Congress and the Administration agreed to this weekfalls short of the amount that we believe is necessary to stabilize thegeneral government debt burden by the middle of the decade
@2.28 -- I couldn't agree more. Bachmann is a threat to this country and to our economic stability, as is Mitch McConnell. Remember his quote? "My number one job is to make Obama a one-term president."
The Republicans seem to have forgotten that their number one job was supposed to be doing what's best for the nation. They intentionally damaged our economy and our financial reputation just to score political points with their constituents.
Perhaps the new Republican campaign slogan should be "sometimes you have to burn down the village in order to save it."
azdad,
Although I'm not a McConnell fan, I get tired of that quote because it was taken completely out of context. Before he said that line he explained he wanted to work with Obama, but after a number of discussions he came to the conclusion that there was no common ground and he couldn't make the progress he felt was needed as long as Obama was president.
People need to get beyond the party-line talking points, start thinking for themselves, and start pushing our political leaders to come together and do what's right for the country. We need to stop evaluating ideas based on who made the comment, and evaluate them based on the merits (or lack thereof) of the idea itself.
azdad--you are absolutely right! How can anything get done when one party is trying to scuttle the other? By the way, I like your republican slogan! Very apt!
Republicans don't like to pay their bills.
G W Bush rode is 8 years out in the White House on a "China One Credit" Card!
Michele Bachmann has Farm subsides and Foster care monies and Medicare Funds for her and her husbands grifter clinic.
Joe Walsh doesn't pay child support to the tune of $117,347 in arrears.
The GOP Slogan has always been OPM= Other Peoples Money!
By the way, I like your republican slogan! Very apt!
The REAL republican slogan: I've got mine! FU** YOU!!!
@cathee,
I just love the "China One Credit Card"...............and Joe Walsh, a Tea Party sweetheart, lecturing people on fiscal responsibility while starving his kids by not paying child support.........what a piece of work!!
I like this one...
It's little partisan, but it really explains that our problem is with spending increases AND tax cuts that got us here. Then not paying as we go... the interest on old debt is the thing that's getting us. Look at one of those new credit card disclosures....if you pay the minimum it's going to take a million years to pay off $300. We're not even paying the minimum, we're borrowing more.
The point of the graph in the zfacts site is that we COULD HAVE been much better off than we are now except for crappy policies since about 1980. The Post War economy reduced our debt to GDP ratio from 125% to 25%, but it took 35 years. We can do that again, but it's going to take a similar amount of time.
Everybody has just got to be working!
How's this for a crazy idea: Raise the highest tax rate from 35% to 70% on income over $1M; then create a 200% tax credit for any new job you create and pay wages (pay $50K in wages, get a $100K deduction, with a max deduction down to the regular 35% rate you were paying before). How's that for motivation? Maybe that way the "job creators" will actually be just that.
And the liberal lies keep on coming.
S&P said NOTHING about raising taxes, they were expecting a minimum of $4 trillion in cuts, this coming from their own spokesman.
The Tea Party did not cause this, are were formed because of this. It is $1.5 trillion average deficits year after year that have caused this, and that is all on the democrats watch.
S&P is not to blame for this, if anything they are stating the obvious and are behind the curve again. China warned us months ago, likewise France. Even Warren Buffed warned us. Democrats refused to listen.
Here's a good analogy to our absurd spending:
You take home $2500/mo. Greenpeace knocks on your door and wants you to sign on to their "legacy program" only $500/mo. on your credit card! Its a truly worthy cause so you sign up. Then Red Cross and Humane Society come with the same deal, now you are adding $1500/mo. to your debt which is already $14,500.
Does that sound sustainable to you? Multiply all numbers by 1,000,000,000 and that is what the government is doing!
So you have to cut spending, but what? Greenpeace? Red Cross? Humane Society? They are all worthy causes but that is irrelevant, economic reality must trump emotions.
So you reluctantly agree to cut $100/mo. while your credit card company wants you to cut $400 and you wonder why your credit rating takes a hit?
This isn't rocket sciences, liberals, it's quite straight forward. Claiming that government economy is not like a household is precisely what got us into this mess. Other countries are living within thier means, what's our excuse?
"all the democrats" fault my @ss. "Liberal lies" ...yeah right.
Lookie here phil:
ignore the "liberal bias" in there and just look at the numbers. This is Debt to GDP ratio, EXACTLY what S&P and TP is bitching about. It's not the "liberals" killing our economic propsects. We were at 25% debt to GDP in 1980, after declinging from 125% right after WW2. Virtually stright up after that. Who started the change in direction? Your favorite president I'm sure...
"However, one of S&P's explicit criticisms of the compromise was that it didn't address the biggest drivers of the nation's debt -- Social Security and Medicare -- and didn't allow for additional tax revenue."
Who was that guy holding press conferences threatening, "I may not be able to send out Social Security checks"?
One party depends on buying its votes, as long as Democrats have any say on spending our budget will never be balanced.
http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/05/news/economy/downgrade_rumors/index.htm?hpt=hp_t2
Robert - that spike in government spending in early 2009 wasn't the stimulus - it was TARP.
Which, if you remember, was signed by Bush.
Real, deprogrammer,
this one is nice too: http://zfacts.com/p/1195.html
A little simpler....for the those who need the story to be simpler ;- )
That not true MDSJ that's the excuse propped up to try and make the banks victims instead of the people responsible for the crisis. The act did not cover adjustable interest rate loans. The ones that were pushed by the banks. The act clear states it was not to be used to push risky leading including the High-risk loads the banks used across the USA.
Banks knew they crated a bubble and they all where just trying to keep it inflated so they could make massive amounts of money.
I am not defending the banks. But the simple fact of the matter is that the adjustable rate mortgages were made to apply the correct interest rate based upon the person's credit. The worse the credit the worse the interest rate later on down the road. The loans were designed to get people into the homes to satisfy the regulators and try to recoup the money a few years down the road.
The government originally put the loans on the stock market because it was the only way they could avoid losing their shirt on the deal. By having everyone buy them from them as soon as they agreed to take on the bad debt.
Unfortunately the people should have never been loaned to. Now everyone wants to call it discrimination if you can't get a house. Bottom line if you have bad credit you can't get a house, if you don't have money, you can't get a house. Back to reality.
Obamabots closing posts, the little fellers are scared of the truth. BOO
Back to my tall Iced Tea & stogey
House Speaker John Boehner, R-Ohio, said Democrats "who run Washington remain unwilling to make the tough choices required to put America on solid ground."
wasn't Boner bragging that he got 95% of what he wanted? So isn't he 95% responsible for this crappy deal that was the cause of the downgrade?
Clearly those under the (R) are proud to ruin the country to gain absolute rule.
Those under the (D) are too afraid to lose their wonderfully rich lives to oppose them to the point of change.
We Lose. And just as the initial recession took our sights off the atrocities of the Iraq Debacle, our money being siphoned off will keep us distracted as once again the Financial and Military Industrial Complex complete their final preparations for NWO.
We Lose.
Bushbama 2012
Who's to blame? Facts don't lie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_debt_by_U.S._presidential_terms
Hmmmm.... W increased the national debt by 20.7%, more than any other U.S. President. See what happens when you elect Cons, Tea Baggers, and Repugs!
Hmmm... every Republican shows and increase while every Dem aside from Obama shows a decrease... and he was left to clean up the Bush Tax Cuts coupled with 2 wars, Medicare Part D and a deep recession.
The facts say don't trust any Republican in fiscal matters.
This is what happens when Republicans get power - failure.
The Republican Party: Dumber Than a Bag of Hammers.
I would say dont trust any politician, especially with the future, well not even that now, of the United States. They "ALL" either play to some parties or for themselves, they could care less about anyone, other than themselves.
Way to go all 3 branches on destroying the United States of America.
Don't trust any Republican, the party of "NO!". Don't trust anybody not willing to compromise for the good of the country. Don't trust anybody that would rather do harm than good, because the choice is not their choice. Ignorant people always think that they are right no matter what the conversation or how high the stakes! Stupid is as stupid does! TEABAGGERS=STUPID, STUPID! Incompetent one minded @!$%#s that came to conquer. Sign the Pledge for Grover Nutwack and screw the American people. Nice jobs Now go home you terrorist traitors!
Apparently some of you don't realize that it is the House that proposes tax increases and appropriation bills. The House was Democratically controlled for all but 5 out of 22 times in that graphic.
"The political brinksmanship of recent months highlights what we see as America’s governance and policymaking becoming less stable, less effective, and less predictable than what we previously believed. The statutory debt ceiling and the threat of default have become political bargaining chips in the debate over fiscal policy...Compared with previous projections, our revised base case scenario now assumes that the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts, due to expire by the end of 2012, remain in place. We have changed our assumption on this because the majority of Republicans in Congress continue to resist any measure that would raise revenues, a position we believe Congress reinforced by passing the act"
- S&P on their decision for the downgrade.
Yeah, Republicans and the Tea Party get 100% of the blame.
I see two main reasons why we are in this mess
1. Two wars in the middle east that are costing taxpayers billions every year.
2. Bush tax cuts for the wealthy that could be increasin revenue by the billions.
You bring our troops home and let the tax cuts expire for the rich, we gain a lot of that surplus back from the Clinton years. It won't solve all of our problems but that is one hell of a start.
The two wars that Bush got us in, received almost complete congress approval. So you can blame both Republican and Democrats on that
Almost every american was behind the war in afganistan, we were pissed off about 9/11. Now, the american public was not really behind the Iraq war, but the politicians (republican and democrats alike) voted and passed it.
Now there is a way in Libya, of course they say it is not a way because there are not boots on the ground, but we know better than that too. It is costing us money we just dont have. We really dont have anything to gain out of the way, let the countries that want it have it. We should take our weapons and go home and save money. It wont happen, because Obama needs the money from the defense contractors for his re-election.
I say we fire everyone in congress/president and have a new election immediately. If any lobbist show up in DC, they are charged with attempted corruption of an elected offical.
Most folks fully understand that Obama had to pay Bushes bills. It's easy to spend all the money and then wake up from your viperous spending spree and tell the guy that is paying your bills,Hay your spending too much money. I never spent that much when I had the helm.
The reason Obama has spent money is he is paying Bushes Bills.
Republicans.....You have to hold their hand every minute.
Bush was like the guy who won the lottery (was handed an unprecedented surplus). He spent through that like crazy and didn't know when to stop. In the meantime, our country went to hell. Then Obama came along and had to deal with the damage. Takes money to fix up a crumbling house.
Lets see here 9% was what on under half of Obama's term double that for 4 years, and mulitply it by 4 if he gets a 2nd term. That would be 36, for those who are doing the math. And this coming off from a former presedent who is the biggest spender in history. We can't survive both Obama's and Bush's debt.
I agree that we need to get our ducks in a row, and maybe this downgrade is a wake-up call that will finally get attention from enough of our leaders to make some effective corrections.
But, who put S&P in charge? Did we elect them?
Let's face it: Bush is a classic second generation rich failure. He blew everything he ever tried to run, including the country. He made things look worse after the adults came in to fix the books, because he didn't even include the war costs in the budget. Put that hidden bombshell in, and it makes the books look pretty bad; like paying for a rolls for 6 years, and adding all 6 years of payment to the budget at once. Ok, he did it, it's done, we screwed up really badly, and gave him two rides on the American limitless credit train. Now it's time to pay for our mistake. Part of this is reversing some of the ridiculous stuff he put in place. Not just the tax cuts for the rich, the tax cuts for everyone. Yeah, I know, it sucks, but when we make stupid decisions, like letting the 16 year old drive the porche, we have to pay the repair shop. It does no good to blame anyone but ourselves, because we put him in the driver's seat. Twice. Now we have to man (and woman) up, and act like adults, eat our crow, and pay the bills. It will only hurt a couple of decades, and then we can get back to being a great place to live. Meanwhile, it's time to start charging countries and companies that are overseas to ship their junk here and our labor there. That's just plain old common sense. Sure business guys don't like it, because they might not get that 3rd summer home in the Hamptons, but again, we need to be grown ups here, and quit whining. The rest of the globe is tired of listening to our punk @sses. We did it in the 20's, we can do it again, unless the American people have evolved into creatures that are no longer worth the space we take up.
your chart is great. I like to know how mush more Obama has racked up since 2009 at which time he already added 9% to our debt after only 1 year. This information is out of date by almost 2 years. All the other presidents data reflect a 4 year period. I think your data will reflect Obama spending mush higher over 4 years by far more so than any other president in the history of the USA. Bush was bad but Obama is far worse.
Hold up just a minute Bluto - WE never put W in office to begin with. The Supreme Court Court defied the will of the people and put him in. He never won that election and Karl Rove and his flock of vultures that descended on FL. knew it. I wonder how Sandra Day O'Connor sleeps at night...
However, he was elected in 2004. I don't know if Kerry was just too tired to fight the voter suppression that took place where daughter lived in OH. ( my daughter was a target ) or what, but we as a Nation are responsible for that.
Fastforward a few years and after collusion between the mortgage industry, appraisers and the rating agency, they bring down the world's economy and now I'm supposed to trust ANYTHING that comes from their mouths? You must be joking! Worse, you think I'm simple enough to believe the distortions and out right lies the Conservatives have been spouting. The Conservative movement is a menace to this Nation. With the Heritage Foundation, Cato Institute they spread this pure umittigated bull puckey as fact. I'm sick of it and anyone who starts blathering that crap to me. I've got a Supreme Court that is neither fair or impartial making corporations people and I'm tired of being run rough shod by the Koch Brothers and Dick Armey and the morons who are being used these rich motherscratchers. This is the last god d@/& straw! It's time to get organized and fight these liars!!
Congress sets the budget. Democrats were majority in Congress during Bush's term. Obama was a member of that Congress. So Obama had his fingers in Bush's term with spending, and until just 8 mos. ago his party was the party still holding the purse strings. Spending, spending, spending. And yet Republicans and/or Tea Party are to blame??? In just 8 mos.? Wow, short memories people.
Hey, Joe125- post #3.6 I belive you just "Begged the question". Doesn't that show that some compromising must have going on by "the Dems"?
Political Clean Slate: If you were in office in 2000- "GET OUT!!!" (Reps & Dems)
#1. Presidents don't make budgets. The blame lies mostly on congress, except that a president can veto a budget, other than that he has no responsibility for it.
#2. Obama, Bush, Clinton (yes if you look at the numbers in reality he increased the defict but by less than any of these others), Bush, Regan, Carter, Ford, Nixon........ All increased the debt by not VETOing a budget. ALL of them. Get over it folks, your party stinks too.
#3 We all want a balanced budget amendment. During the Clinton years dems were calling for it to so you Repulicans can sit down and stop yelling. I haven't met one person that doean't agree to a balance budget amendment. Not one in my life time.. DOES ANYONE HERE?
#4 Republicans cannot hold on to "Defense" which in my mind should be called "Offense" because our defense didn't stop the attacks but so be it.. Dems cant hold on to "everything else". WE have to make 45% cutsto everything but SS, we can't pull the rug out from under these folks. Those cuts have to hard and painfull and sudden so we can get the pain over with as quickly as possible, draggin this out is causing more pain than you can imagine.
#5 Congress didn't even have to do anything that radical, they just had to cut ~$400 billion from today on for every year. If they cut $400B wourth of programs today and never reserected them our credit rating would be the same. Why couldn't they do this? DO we really need the TSA? They pretty much don't catch anyone. DO we need the DHS? WTF we have the FBI and CIA. Do we really need to subsidise farming companies or Corporations? Do we really have to make sure everyone can get a loan? I mean some of those things are nice to have but do we really really need them? I could get into a room with the most stubborn person on this board and say hey we have to find $400B to cut, lets do it, you find $800B and make a list I'll do thae same, those that overlap we do. IF afterwards we're not at $400B I get to pick one from your list you get to pick one from my list until we get to $400B. I'm certain we could find those cuts. What's so hard?
We have morons running our country.
cpt.obvious, GO CAPTAIN!!!! GO CAPTAIN!!!! GO ! gO!!! gO!!!!!!
StreetKid, GO STREETKID!! GO STREETKID!!!! GO ! gO!!! GO!!!!
Political Clean Slate: If you were in office in 2000-"GET OUT!!!!" (Reps & Dems)
You have fraudulently twisted the facts by using some "convenient" lapses in your own memory and in your illogical "logic". The subject demands a more in-depth consideration of all historical facts, not just a lame -- and misleading -- reference to Congressional majorities during Bush's two terms. You conveniently ignore the realities of modern American politics, and Congressional procedures, and you ignore the fraudulent and immature rationale for our nation engaging in wars that any fool could have predicted would be our demise. Many Democrats did stand against the war.
But for you to accuse anyone else of having a short memory, when you gloss over the pervasive ignorance and irresponsible actions of T-party members and the Republican party in general, tells us that you are good at distorting the truth to maintain a bigger lie. You reek of moldy tea. When are your like going to face up to the truth which is supported by the facts? Glib rhetoric and lies which intentionally mislead the public should be considered a misdemeanor if not worse.
Freedom of speech is an important foundation of liberty. It should not be allowed to be abused by frauds, con artists and liars of criminal import. Save your juvenile twisted analysis for the high school debate team. Comments like yours only clutter up the discussion by adults who are trying to be responsible, reasonable and logical. Obviously, you have not taken much time to acquaint yourself with economic historical facts, while clinging to some lame and unsupported talking points of the Conservative Right Do-Wrongs. While there may exist a tiny barely-discernible truth that everyone shares some of the blame (I failed to vociferously object to the lies of the Republican Party, each and every day), the simple fact is that this latest debacle lies directly at the feet of the Republican Party and the unethical and hair-brained thinking of the so-called Tea Party. The blame should have names attached to it so the ill-informed voting public, (who are so easily misled at times), can make better voting decisions. Names like Senator McConnell of Kentucky, Paul Ryan, Boehner, Cantor, and Rand Paul. These men and several others are not qualified for the offices that they infect.
I am remiss in not including Michelle Bachman in that group of ill repute.
They need to ship the Tea Baggers and Republicans to another country so they can be with the AMERICAN Jobs THEY gave tax credits to ship overseas!!
"HEY lets make Corp profits bigger by PAYING them to hire cheaper labor in another country!" Great idea President Bush!
Back up to above: jumpintoconclusions STANDS alone!!!!!!!!!!!! EXCELLENT!!!!!!!
Go jumpin!!! Go jumpin!!!! GO! gO!!! Go!!!!!!!!!!! DUH!!!!!!!!! WOW_SOLUTION-speak!!!!!!!!!
Political Clean Slate: If you were in office in 2000- "GET OUT!!!" (Reps & Dems)
jamesn-3589235, EXCELLENT!!!!!!!!!! Go! Go! Go! I hope you weren't replying to me about that High School Sh!t!!!!!! Can't help myself- I vacillate some days.
Political Clean Slate: If you were in office in 2000-"GET OUT" (Reps & Dems)
"AAA" rating????????
We are bankrupt! What responsible/honest/viable ratings company would even consider giving the United States a top credit rating????
Apple now has more money the the United States of America.
We are 14 TRILLION in debt, and after we fund the coming crises in Medicare and Social Security, we will be over 50 TRILLION in debt.
We are funding TWO useless wars on credit (one immoral based upon lies); the first time in world history and two of the most IGNORANT endeavors in world history.
ANYONE who would loan us more money are total MORONS and will never get their money back. Are you awake yet China ???
The only solution is to start parking our country down the block so China can't find it and have it repossessed!
(Or end 2 useless wars and cut back bloated military, repeal tax breaks to rich and big corporations, cut our bloated government/congress, repair our infrastructure, transition off of oil, and move to a responsible fiscal policy that looks to the future instead of stealing form the future generations).
Go! Go!....CHA~CHA~CHA!!!!!! Wow! I wonder what's on the last page of this post!!!!!
pOLITICAL cLEAN sLATE: If you were in office in 2000- "GET OUT!!!" (Reps & Dems)
I gotta tell ya, joe. One thing that really annoys me (and others) are people who clearly don't understand what brought us to this mess. So, you just make up a bunch of crap for the sake of partisan hackery. That's an idiotic thing to do.
And what you've tried to say so far is just nonsense.
Banking and housing both started their decline when the Bush Admin eliminated
the Federal Agencies dedicated to regulation and investigating predatory
lending practices at the Federal Level. I know – my partnership owned a large
regional mortgage company up until 2003.
When Bush’s own stimulus policies weren’t working and he was burning through the surplus handed down to him, he cut all those federal agencies way back – one example (of many) is the RESPA division which, in early 2002, he cut down to TWO PEOPLE for a total of 50 states – and, when he did that, his administration actually sent an official mailer out to every bank and mortgage company in the US. (I know, because we received one of them). And, magically, every major mortgage bank in the US who had questionable ethics and unquestionable greed, started up all the “really cool” predatory lending practices, especially toward subprime customers, to make a quick buck (and,
lots of them). Countrywide, Dime, First Franklin, MILA, and a whole list of
others started the ridiculous 1.5% loans, and the $125% LTV loans. These kinds
of loans are the biggest reasons why the housing market began to crash, and
thus, banks began to crash.
Once we saw the big guys doing this in 2002/03, we put our mortgage company up for sale and sold it within 6 months of listing it. Had we held on much longer, it would have been worthless.
Bush knew his economic policies weren’t working, so he built a false economy based upon the largest increase in signature debt, HELOC debt and refinance debt ever seen in any presidential term. And when these short term 1.5% loans and 125% LTV loans came due 3-5 years later, many ballooned and fell into default. More like avalanched into default. This all started LONG before Obama’s election. And it is directly related to Bush’s policy – which was specifically written to encourage banks to build up a false economy based on spending that was derived from more debt, NOT more jobs. For a period, more jobs followed of course, due to more spending.
But it was all spending of borrowed money. Of course, the secondary market
failed, and then, who was the first major bank to finally drop? Countrywide –
the first major lender to offer these crazy loans after Bush wiped out every
federal agency dedicated to investigating predatory lending practices.
None of this happens overnight. This took a few years and it didn’t happen a few weeks after Obama was elected, like some morons would like you to
think. We saw it coming a mile away in 2002, and took action to get out before
it got bad. So did many other smaller mortgage companies who also sold off at
that time.
Seriously, you can “blame the DEMs” all you like. It’s simply ridiculous. Blaming Barney Frank and a couple others, for blocking a GOP Controlled Congress? Really? LOL!! And yet, even what you’re claiming --- it would not have had the effect on the crisis you’re suggesting. Because the secondary market wasn’t responding to that (do you even KNOW what the Secondary Market is?) – it was collapsing due to defaulting short-term refinance and HELOC loans that had largely begun getting awarded in 2002/03.
You had a GOP Controlled White House from 2001 – 2009. And a GOP Controlled Congress (BOTH houses) from 1997 – 2007.
The collapse initially started in 2005 when the first wave of defaults began to show up; it picked up speed by 2006, and was in full swing by 2007.
AND, try this scenario: Even if you could show this was due to Democratic controlled policy before 1997 (which you cannot) – then, with 10 years of full GOP legislative control after that in BOTH HOUSES, why the hell didn’t the GOP solve the problem before this happened? You keep claiming the GOP is brilliant, with all the talent – then what the hell happened for the 10 years they controlled both houses and the Executive Branch? Didn’t they have the talent and smarts to FIX ANYTHING? Or, were they just hoping their false economy would make them look good long enough to ride it out?
The car drove soundly into the wall. GOP Pres Bush was in the driver’s seat for all that time, as was the GOP Congress. How long you gonna try to blame this crash on someone else?
I see a bunch of cut-and-paste thoughless "congress has the power of the purse" crap. During Reagan, even though congress was democratic, congress' budgets were within 1% of the president's. It's always that way. People try to blame the vertical debt increase at the end of Bush on "the 2006 democrat congress". what a bunch of hooey. Revenue crashed, plus TARP. that's it. There was nothing special that congress did in 2007 and 2008.
Where is our debt come from? See here...and it's not congress, although congress did go along with it....
Bernitch, can I get some links for what you posted please? I typed "RESPA division cuts" into Google and didn't see anything. Also, what company did you own until 2003? Lastly, can you detail what steps the Democrats have taken to fix the issues you addressed? Thanks in advance for your answers.
Sedna - Great link .
Notice that Obama increased the debt 9% IN ONE YEAR from 2009 to 2010 (+9.0% (2010)).
The worst Republican was bush who increased it 20% IN FOUR YEARS from 2005 to 2009.
At this rate Obama will increase the debt by 36% in four years, NEARLY DOUBLE WHAT BUSH DID.
Finally, someone in the room has the balls to speak up .. thanks S&P . God knows our best congress money can buy and limp dick obama don't have a clue . . CUT SPENDING . . close 25% of the 700 military bases worldwide as a good start . . bring our troops home especially Libya ..
#4 - Fri Aug 5, 2011 11:25 PM EDTwade...bring the troops home from the military bases (non combat bases) around the world? why? at least they are getting paid while there. bring 'em home and they're unemployed.
wade -- The Congress DID cut spending. John Boehner got 98% of what he wanted. The US WILL BE cutting spending on Iraq and Afghanistan. The GOP and TEA Party confirmed that by claiming the 'savings' was just a gimmick because it is going to happen anyway.
Didn't you get the memo? S&P voiced concern about the revenue side of the equation. The TEA Party held firm and S&P just voted on TEA Party purity.
Lando something tells me that you think unemployment is the greatest stimlus out there. While i support our troops and think that it's the most honorable goverment job (and the only one that pays a crappy wage for what you do) the pay we give these people isen't free. it's got to be sucked out of the private sector, or barrowed from China. We can't afford so we need to cut military bases we don't need. Plenty to cut there and I I were the republicans I would start cutting there just to show we can boild our own sacred cows when the going gets rough.
It's sucked out of our wallets. The private sector is way to good at holding on to their taxes. Closing bases is not a bad idea, as long as we close the right ones. The trick is that vets should have first priority at any job they qualify for once they get home. Once we, uh, pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan, a lot of juice we need will be saved, as long as we don't let the pentagon simply divert that money into equipment to fight wars against countries that can't fight back anymore. If we could get the private sector to pay the actual taxes they owe instead of giving them millions in refunds on top of their billions in profits, we should be able to pay the debt down pretty quickly. Sure, they'll whine about how they won't be able to do business, they'll have to layoff, they'll be bankrupt. Listen, I've been around awhile. They always say that. It's page 1-3 in the auto respose script. The fact is, they've stripped to the lowest level. They have to do business here, and if they can't pay their bills and go belly up, well, that's the free market system, isn't it? Isn't that why we weren't supposed to bail out wallstreet? Someone will take their place. For once, I'm all for letting the freemarket work like it's supposed to, and weed out the guys that can't pay their bills. It's called an adjustment, and it's long over due for the big guys at the top.
We have real idiots in America if they believe Obama is to blame. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
#5 - Fri Aug 5, 2011 11:26 PM EDTSorry Boots - but our President has a hand in this mess too. He is a smart guy (unlike President Bevis), but both the current and past administrations had plenty of sharp people working for them who could have seen this.
Not raising taxes while starting two wars was rediculuous. I agree with the concerns about raising taxes during a recession. The perfect storm of home loans for all, deregulation, and trickle down caused this problem.
Obama isen't the only one to blame, however when you see that your heading twords the cliff when you get in office, most people slam on the breaks and try not to do what the last guy did to get us into this mess. Bush expanded the goverment, diden't pay for his debt, and looked out only for coporate intrests that supported him. Obama is doing the samething only super sized. If Bush did it and it turned out to be a bad idea Obama is putting twice has much money into the same programs. Bush bail out diden't work so Obama did a bigger one. Bush's EPA was dragging down the economy, Obama put more money into the EPA.
Real idiots. Before the debt debacle was splashed all over the news, do you not think the President was informed of this looming issue? While he was out busy campaigning away for reelection, mind you. During pressing times, the President Obama has been missing from the White House to campaign.
We idiots, and lets assume that is anyone that bothers to disagree with your opinion, have valid reasons for our own opinions.
The cumulative effort of the Obama administration, as well as all political parties involved in government have had a hand in straggling every last valuable penny from hard working people to put it to use in the worst ways possible.
Before the debt problem, Obama threatened to shut down the government, because of a balanced budget wasn't done for the fiscal year we are in now, that should have been done in 10/2010. Who let that one slide for so long, right, President Obama was the one signing all those temporary stop gap bills, instead of getting it done right the first time.
I could bash on every party all night long, they are all a disgrace to the people they are suppose to serve. They only serve themselves. They aren't in office to fight for me or you. They are their to fight for those who line their pockets.
Politicians lie to get into office, and guess what? They are all politicians.
That is my opinion. I said it, I meant it. I read your opinion, and I happen to disagree with you completely. If you disagree with me, you don't have to say a darn thing, except that you disagree, completely
So, Obama, joining forces with "Turbo Tax Timmy" Geithner have succeed in losing our S&P AAA+ rating for the first time in history. All part of Obama's desire for a new world order, in which America is no better than any other country. Obama's campaign pledge to "fundamentally transform America" appears to be working beautifully. Now, if we can just get more people out of the work force, and keep them dependent on the government, we will be all set.
All these voltures of the tea party are starting the blame game AGAIN for personal benefit.
Gravity you should have seen the way Greenspan played with the numbers. You want an objective look to our financial crisis? Go to the video store and rent Inside Job. Of course no Republican and especially no Tea Bagger wants to know the truth. Sad to say most Democrats don't either.
NONE and All of the above. At fault here is the endless number of Ordinary American Citizens who have over-spent their credit cards. It was WE who set the example for our government then by demanding they reduce taxes so that Joe Citizen could afford to buy more and more. WE did this to the point where our government could not keep up with the services that WE demanded of them. Remember that a Landlord has to collect rent BEFORE rendering services otherwise He too will soon be homeless.
Boots.....you gotta get real. I agree with you....he is not entirely to blame but the man was elected to lead and so far all we did was waste a vote on a big talker. Lets face it.....Obama speaks well, is articulate but has fallen wayyyyyy short on his promises. My vote goes elsewhere in 2012.....
jrschw, EXCELLENT!!!!!!! .........but you can't ignore the 4-R rating. Ratio of Republican Ram-Rod(ing). Still prevalent today. 80/20, 90/10, it's still "a balance" to the whole, but it can't be struck without appication of "figuring". I once figured out how much it was costing me if my lawyer "farted" while thinking about my case. Whoops, Sorry, come back!
Political Clean Slate: If you were in office in 2000- "GET OUT" (Reps & Dems)
I believe that Murdoch and friends bought Standard and Poors and the Wall Street Journal. If I am wrong someone please set me straight. Standard and Poors also gave AIG, Lehman Bros. and Bear-Stearns AAA ratings weeks before they all went down the tubes. Maybe they need to look at their own ratings formula.This is all politics.
Tea Baggers...laughing all the way to a third world economy.
I don't think you understand the concept of "third world".
Wait until the sh*t really hits the fan. They will be surprised to find that they are as covered with it as those they were aiming at.
I don't think you understand the concept of "third world".
I lived in many third world countries so yes, I do know what a third world country is.
Chris, I realize that "third world country" has many connotations, and I believe that your statement can be clarified if you explained in which aspects similar to third world countries you believe the Tea Party will cause.
There are many descriptions and one even makes it a oxymoron.
The term Third World arose during the Cold War to define countries that remained non-aligned with either capitalism and NATO ......
My meaning was more of what the tea party has already done....we no longer have a AAA rating because of the uncertainty and scrabble the tea party brought to the argument.
My projection is if we leave things up to these financial amateurs, our economy will be of third world quality or trust.
[Like Afghanistan or such]
And if were not careful and get the big spending progressives in we will be a banana republic. We have a low GDP, we got a corupt congress that just rubber stamps (we got to pass it before we can find out what is in it), the only thing that were missing is an economy that is based only on low income farming and were there baby.
No Chris... if the Teabag Terrorists and Redumblicants get ahold of the country again we WILL be 3rd world in transportation and infrastructure, clean energy, EDUCATION, healthcare... christ... we're practically there now. They've given away all the jobs, we've already got some of the stupidest students in the world because we've got one of the poorest educational systems thanks to NCLB, we have no public option or national healthcare, we pay our workers far less in wages, give them far less free / vacation time, they're some of the most overworked, over stressed and underpaid out of all developed nations. We have a practically non-existant public transportation system and what we do have is so old, outdated and in disrepair. We're overrun w/illegals, we no longer have a middle class, we have religious morons trying to dictate gov't policy in a diverse secular nation... yep... we're already one foot in. If the Rethugs / TPs get a chance... they're going to shove us all the way in.. full force.
I find it entertaining that everyone is blaming the tea party or repbulicans here. Hey get your head out of the sand.
Democrats had to come up with a $4T plan too you know. They didn't either.
The only group thatactually did was the TEA party folks and AFAIK Ron Paul.
Why is it that the whole group of them could sit down and figure out how to cut $400B perminately right now, today?
Why? Dems would cut $400 in defense, okay so Republicans wouldn't agree to that, so move on. There most certaintly are programs they both could cut without so much of a rucus. Hell rais taxes by $200B and cut $200B together.
Don't tell me Republican have the blame here and don't tell me DEms have the blame here either. If you believe either of them do you're clueless. They both do, they had a task they needed to sit down and find $400B, just nowthat it, Not $4T over 10 years.. Just $400B today and keep that cut for 10 years, which for those of you that don't do math so well.. $400B * 10 Years = $4T..
Why didn't they do this?
They don't want to lose votes be cutting something some american want..
Seriously.. man up.
I don't profess intimate knowledge of every little detail of the legislative processes in the past several weeks, despite watching news programs 8 to 20 hours a day. And I don't remember every little detail. What I do remember is that the Democrats (by and large) and Pres. Obama did virtually every conceivable maneuver to get the debt-ceiling raised, and the Republicans did anything they could to throw a monkey-wrench into a simple process that had decades of precedence.
Pres. Obama is the hardest working President I have seen in my lifetime of 61 years. He is impeccably honest, ethical, and humble beyond normal human capacity. He may not be perfect, but he is by far the best man we could have in the office of President during these times. Only a person of low intelligence and evil intent would criticize him for his great care and effort to lead our country, and the world, to a higher level of human existence. If we leave it to Republicans and Tea Party non-ethics, we will be going backwards a hundred years or more.
By the way, not so incidental, the "fact" that the Democrats previously had a majority in the Senate belies the reality of the filibuster process whereby any thumb-sucking unscrupulous politician, having inferior intellect and ill-will towards the national greatest good, i.e., Republicans and Tea Party wing-nuts and the Koch brothers, can single-handedly sidetrack and derail any legislation, no matter how competent and valuable the legislation might be.
Seriously, Ted-803281, why not get the sand out of your head?
"Decades of precedence" is what got us here. We needed CHANGE, not business as usual. Ironic considering the "hope and change" candidate was the one pushing for same-ol', same-ol'...especially considering his (and Democrats') stance in 2006 when he (they) voted AGAINST raising the debt ceiling...
By the way, were the Democrats "terrorists" in 2006? "Holding a gun to our heads?" Or was that diiiiiiiiiiifferent...Must be that "diversity of thought" and "new tone" we constantly hear about from the left, but never actually see...Much like many of their policy positions, they exempt themselves and their constituencies...
The difference here is the house hold finance mentality of the tea baggers VS the nation economy mentality.
The tea party and pugs along with too many cons play checkers, however the world runs on chess.
Fear is not how to run a economy and fear of making a debt isn’t the way to get out of debt.
Its well known [even the last time in the 30s] that spending your way to prosperity is the only thing that works, while the Voo Doo economics of pee on your head and like it is what got the world and the US in trouble in the first place. Robbing Peter to pay Paul doesnt work.
Cutting off your nose to spite your face is the Tea Baggers trick. It doesn’t work either.
Cutting debt, and pretending that cutting our wealth and spending money on our infrastructure has nothing in common, unless your part of the uneducated Tea baggers union..
banana republic
Tricky dick is dead, so fear not. [and learn the difference]
It work won't rich asses and Corporate America. All that BS about how you pay all the taxes, how your businesses are suffering because you have to pay taxes and how US corporate taxes are the highest in the world....well Duh...When US CEOS earn the highest salaries in the world they should be allowed to go tax free while individual Americans provide all that nice, well maintained infrastructure and pay for all that wonderful government service that these rich asses use 100 times more than any individual American?
And, isn't is really nice how rich ass running are scared because Wall Street isn't pouring out billions for their investment dividends? Gee...is that maybe because Wall Street planned on getting its syrupy mitts on our payroll deductions for their privileged use for their high risk investments?
Doesn't anyone else see the humor in rich ass being roasted by its own stupidity? They lived on Wall Street ROI so long, they now believe their only income must always be dividends.
One problem with that...they can't support their own high risk investment addiction and need OUR money to extend that Gravy Train a little longer. Until the rest of us work to be their only source of investment dividends? So THEY can retire at age 35 on their ROI? While they up the age of Social Security to 70 so we drop dead at out jobs working our asses off to provide that financial security they are so addicted to?
Face facts. If Wall Street crashes this time, the only people it is going to affect are the dumbasses who invested so heavily and didn't want to face the fact that Wall Street is now and always will be the largest gambling Casino in the universe.
Smart people don't invest in Madoffing. They invest in their country to make it strong, stable and to provide the future our kids all deserve.
A conversation changer....Jobs, jobs, jobs. Where are the jobs Speaker Boehner?
Deprogrammer - Great link .
Notice that Obama increased the debt 9% IN ONE YEAR from 2009 to 2010 (+9.0% (2010)).
The worst Reupublican was bush who increased it 20% IN FOUR YEARS from 2005 to 2009.
At this rate Obama will increase the debt by 36% in four years, NEARLY DOUBLE WHAT BUSH DID.
At this rate Obama will increase the debt by 36% in four years
Pure ass sumption.
Its three years now, and your GUESS timates aren’t coming to fruition.
I wonder why?
Fuzzy math and logic does not work.
As it stands the US requires about 1.5 trillion dollars a year in borrowing to scrape by. In just 5 years that figure will jump to 3 trillion as millions of boomers jump on Social Security. In just 10 years we will have almost tripled the national debt.
If I were a credit scoring idiot I would give the US a much lower rating because our out dependence on debt. In other words we are UNABLE to make our bills without incurring further debt. That my friends is NOT AAA credit worthiness...
#7 - Fri Aug 5, 2011 11:27 PM EDTOur debt and stupidity lies in the fact that we are not weaning our selves of the stupidity that OIL brings to the table.
It’s a mentality that we cant afford.
Change that mentality [stop bickering] and we will be back as #1, and not some soon to be back water dump.
And what would you have us go too. The green movements solar and wind energy aren't sufficent enough to power this country. The USA gets more power from burning wood then we do those green energy's. You want us to drill here, or how about go nuclear. Even if we do manage to get off of energy oil is used in plastic, computers, petrolium products etc.
@tommyiswrongandnotright... well they better do something because we run out of oil in 2045 and coal in 2159. China has over 58% hydropower, windpower is growing worldwide at a rate of 30% per year, In 2007 grid-connected photovoltaic electricity was the fastest growing energy source, with installations of all photovoltaics increasing by 83% in 2009 to bring the total installed capacity to 15 GW. Nearly half of the increase was in Germany, which is now the world's largest consumer of photovoltaic electricity (followed by Japan). Solar cell production increased by 50% in 2007, to 3,800 megawatts, and has been doubling every two years. Biomass electricity generation increased by over 100% in Germany, Hungary, the Netherlands, Poland, and Spain. A further 220 GW was used for heating (in 2004), bringing the total energy consumed from biomass to around 264 GW..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_energy_consumption
So I'd say you're pretty much full of @!$%#. The entire WORLD CAN be run strictly on green energy... solar/wind/water/geothermal. Europe is doing it, China is doing it. The notion that it can't is a lie/myth.
They said we would run out fo oil in 2010 then 2025 now its 2045? I can't wait any longer, please let them be right some day. Let me know in 500000..
I never liked the idea of a growing national debt and paying interest on it when there are people who are suffering. Nonetheless, the entire issue involves much deeper considerations that such simple presentiments fail to address. The GDP will increase how much at what rate in the years to come?
What gets lost is good judgment and solid economic policy. The main problem we have right now is NOT too much spending, or the increasing debt. It is loss of jobs and an unstable economy. Government spending to maintain and create jobs, and to give minimal benefits to allow basic survival of our citizens, are two justifiable and logical pathways towards amelioration.
Waiting for corporations and the "free" market to get off their dimes (which amount to a few trillion dollars or more of stashed cash) and create jobs is pure nonsense. Before most businesses invest in new products or new production or new services, there has to be a perceivable demand. When the citizens at the bottom of the economy, i.e., the middle-class and us poor folk, have no money for purchases, there is little demand created or generated or maintained. And the economy falters.
The "economy" is a shorthand word for the "process of redistribution of wealth". When purchases are made, the wealth gets redistributed in its many varied forms and for the benefit of all who participate. To continually carp, harp and argue over "capitalism" vs. "socialism" is extremely shallow and meaningless. The more important questions to ask are whether the process is remotely fair and honest. That does not allow one to set idly by while his neighbors are starving or dying for lack of some basic human need which others have in great wasteful excess.
(Ok, maybe I strayed a wee bit from the discussion thread. But the ideas are relevant to the overall topic.)
GHX...The US must invest in small businesses, not Corporate America. Corporate America is so deeply embedded in government that government is no longer distinguishable from Big Business. How much of our tax revenues paid for oil spills in the last 4 decades? How much of our tax revenues paid for expenses Big Business is supposed to pay for out the revenues it receives? How much of the cost of living is directly attributable to Big Businesses skimming profits of up to 80% for personal use and high risk investments? How much of that skimming results in Big Business then begging for bailouts, tax exemptions, tax breaks and tax credits that destroyed this economy?
Now is the hour for Americans to face the dirty game Corporate America was really up to: Forcing individual taxpayers to bear the responsibilities that justifiably belong to Big Business. It is not our problem when they create bills for their oil spills. Why are we paying a single dime of Exxon-Mobil's Valdez fine? We didn't spill the oil. They did.
It is totally irresponsible of Republicans to steal money from taxpayers for programs we want and need just so there is enough federal tax revenues to pay Big Business debts. If Big Business can't manage without government funding, it doesn't belong in business. Back to Square One on this.
The dirty little secret since Reagan is this back room game: Dump all business costs on taxpayers, hang onto 80% of business revenue and call it "profit", spend it on high risk investments and if it all goes bad, just jack prices of goods and services until American paychecks are totally theirs.
solar and wind energy aren't sufficent enough to power this country
Get a education, the sun provides enough energy in 15 minutes to run the worlds needs and then some.
100 miles square of desert area is plenty of space for our solar panel needs.
And then there is wind, tidal, dams, and all the other things that makes the world and us able to live in the first place.
Small minds stop us from being great, and smaller thoughts block everything in its tracks and keep us slaves to big oil.
May I suggest a education in any of the sciences, like physics.
There is only one wealth, the people and their work efforts.
Then the rich hoard it and steal it away and then they pretend they worked hard for it, and that only they know better on how it should be used or just hoarded at the peril of all others and even the nation.
I can't wait any longer, [oil]
Dont, it will last forever?
Richard and Fred...Okay...so now you want to abolish poverty, lack of education and anything that YOU think costs you money so you don't have to pay taxes, right?
Let's start with your welfare. What do you call those tax credits those who earn six figure salaries and take all those tax credits. Let's roll those back to 1999 levels. Something so painful in that for you people?
But no...you'd rather help yourselves to some elderly 80 year old's Social Security so you can spend your fat incomes on high risk investments. Get a clue...those 401Ks and anything you put into a bank account are also "entitlements". You expect to get something from them don't you? The difference is when you don't, you'll be the first to demand help from the government because your private investments went Madoff, right?
The reason FDR created Social Security was so that rich asses couldn't amass fortunes using everyone else's paychecks but their own. You people are now on your own...You can invest till the cows come home...Just keep your syrupy mitts off our choices of investment in Social Security.
There are some fabulous posts here by chris, jamesn, ewent and others. Thanks.
I agree thoroughly lib50. I learn a lot by reading these posts. And to all who contribute thanks from me too.
Social security tax needs to be increased by my understanding to around 40% of each and every dollar every person in the US currently earns rather than a measley 15%. The current crop of seniors only paid in a very small percentage of what is taken out. Why? They live longer than was expected and medical costs are tem times higher than was projected. It is nice to make pension promises, but what would happen if tomorrow someone figured out how to make people live 1000 years? Thats a LOT of Social Security and Medicare.
The simple fact is that sometimes things change. Sure we SHOULD tax the rich. Not rich individuals but the top 500 biggest corporations who pay little of no tax to do business in our country. Most liberals figure small business is the place to tax, but with small businesses going the way of the dinosour it I would not want to count on a check there.
Beyond this the facts are simple. As our economy diminishes and more boomers enter Social Security we will be counting on China for 1.5 trillion a year to start moving up to over 3 trillion a year by 2021. And that assumes the economy continues to remain as vibrant and strong as it is right now.
Keep in mind there are millions of people like me who used to pay some 30k a year in various taxes each year but now pay almost zero due to unemployment.
So WHO exactly is going to pay for all this? China is already balking. I am no use to the economy any more. Tens of thousands of small businesses are going broke each week and our bankruptcy courts are stuffed to the gills...
I like how everyone bitches that 40% of americans don't pay income taxes.....
Did you ever stop to think of how many of those 40% are ACTIVE DUTY MILITARY? When active duty you don't pay taxes.....add in that many military family members are on some form of federal assistance...ie food stamps, medicaid and are at poverty level so don't pay taxes as it is. There would be a good chunk of that 40% people like to quote so much. How big was our military again???
Active duty don't pay taxes? Since when? Only people deployed in certain areas do not pay some taxes. Do some basic research before posting. Holy cow, you can read anything here.
let's be clear. by showing the world that the united states congress was considering defaulting on it's debts the republicans decreased the amount of confidence other countries have in our sanity and dependability for the first time in our nations history. the democrats were not talking about how default might not be such a bad thing....that was entirely a republican position and now we will live with the outcome of that posture. in particular the s and p was put off by the fact that the american house and senate would not consider any revenue increases regardless of the fact that without them it would be impossible to reduce the deficit fast enough. the republicans (or read tea party) caused this loss of our nations triple a rating and they did so all on their own.
#8 - Fri Aug 5, 2011 11:29 PM EDTDon't forget about the leader of the Teabagger consortium Grover Norquist and whoever is financing his dellusions! They are all teabagger terrorist traitors to the United States.
I totally agree. He and the Tea Party congressional members are hurting this country more than any foreign or domestic terrorist could because they are disguised as PATRIOTIC AMERICANS-talk about buyers' remorse!!!
Singe,
I'm curious "why" they did it.
What would convince them that it was even ... a . possibility.
Why?
if you change republicans to Congress/President, i will agree with you. it was a combined effort to make us look back in front of the world.
Not a single one of them deserves to be re-elected. Once a clown in my eyes, always a clown in my eyes.
Jeremiah - I don't think the plan was to tank our national credit rating. They just didn't understand the ramifications of that happening and got so caught up in the sound of their own rhetoric that they didn't hear when the shots were fired. It appears the problems with "cut spending only" crowd is that they continue to equate a national and global economy with a kitchen table economy. The two really have very little in common.
I think the idea was to tank our credit rating. The TP is either a dupe or a smokescreen. Maybe the TP ignorance was just being used by others who know very well what they are doing. I think this whole thing is about power and $$. If we tank our credit rating, we are for sale for a mere pittance! One only needs to look at who benefits from this situation--in other words--follow the money. Someone stands to make a fortune here, and it is not the American taxpayer!
"We have met the enemy and he is us!" Pogo by Walt Kelly
Why is it we dont want people on drugs or people who are drunk on our roads driving but we let them vote? The real threat to this country are liberals , correct me but doesnt liberal mean anything goes and now they have gone to far, right off the cliff. I am tired of this on going joke you can bring out the real president now.
singe...Let's be clear: The Republicans pushed the envelope to win win their way. I cannot for the life of me fathom how cutting Social Security people pay for and then are taxed when they receive it helps the economy? That's money that is reliably there for Americans whose employers dropped pensions and 401Ks with the excuse the "administrative costs" were killing the bottom line. BS. That was just another Big Business excuse to show who's boss.
History will reflect that a tiny big mouth minority in $500 suits pushed the envelope full of big bucks to Corporate America it was always protecting. Cantor and his ilk need to be recalled. All the Tea Party did was make it even more difficult for Americans of average incomes to see any light at the end of this dark and getting darker tunnel.
America wasn't built by Corporations. It wasn't built by CEOs who exploit workers and create dangerous living environments. It was created by people who worked hard for a living and passed on their work ethic to future generations. Corporate America HAS NO work ethic beyond living off investment dividends provided by their employees payroll deductions.
wayne...How are liberals a threat to you? Because right wingers all want to retire at age 35 but unfortunately they have to pay their dues and their taxes like everyone else?
How is conservatism in any way helping this economy? You elected a bunch of snot nosed Twerps from the Tea Party who pull tantrums, create more unemployment and you think liberals are dangerous? How about trash that misguided ideology for once and get on the bandwagon to support your president and your country?
Wayne-3752777, you're lame. The real threat to this country is backwards uninformed citizens like yourself who are allowed to vote. On second thought, by using the same lame "arguments" that you used, I am compounding my error of wasting my time giving any worth to your ignorant perspective.
The word Liberal has several definitions and connotations, the relevant one being "favorable to progress or reform, as in political or religious affairs". It does not mean anything goes, and in fact it really has a subtle association with true "conservative" values based on the underlying intent and purpose of the U.S. Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, and the overall intent of forming a "more perfect union".
While we may have some honest differences of opinion as to what constitutes progress or meaningful positive reform, only a @!$%#-heel would cling to values or ideas that do not offer the best possible human outcomes. Instead of being a @!$%#-heel, Wayne, why not imagine walking in the other fellow's shoes (as if he has any). Being a @!$%#-heel stinks. It makes dancing much less enjoyable. My suggestion: Dance, Wayne, as if your happiness in life depends on it. (That is not a literal suggestion necessarily.) Can you show us the real Wayne now, the human one? The one who is grateful for his many opportunities that many others don't have?
If the other ratings agencies gave the US time, why didn't Standard and Poors? All that crap over the last few weeks has been to accomplish what S and P did. When they saw that it wasn't happening, they decided to do it for the Tparty. Strictly political.
Liberals/Dems refusing to stop buying their votes is what ultimately doomed us:
"However, one of S&P's explicit criticisms of the compromise was that it didn't address the biggest drivers of the nation's debt -- Social Security and Medicare -- and didn't allow for additional tax revenue."
http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/05/news/economy/downgrade_rumors/index.htm?hpt=hp_t2
Actually that would have been the secutary of tresureys decesion not the congress. We would still have enough money to pay our intrest and our so called mandotory spending. Just woulden't be much left for anything else.
The time has come to raise taxes on EVERYONE - ALL WORKERS AT ALL INCOME LEVELS. Obama and the Democrats have been demanding that taxes be increased to cover additional spending and/or to reduce the deficit. I originally thought that this was the wrong approach, but I have now changed my mind.
I think that we ought to increase taxes on every single taxpayer in this country, including me. All workers should be required to pay taxes. Right now almost half of all workers pay no Federal income tax. How did that happen? Too many free rides. That has to stop. Everyone has got to get in on paying taxes and pay their fair share. We must be fair to everyone. Fairness is the key.
We need to get rid of the earned income tax credits. No more tax refund checks being sent to people who never paid taxes to start with - how stupid is that? That's welfare. That socialism, and we cannot afford it anymore. We are going broke and that just aren't enough rich people to fix it.
We need to raise social security taxes up to 10% on all income for workers up to the maximum. Employers can match that amount. I am a small business owner, and I am willing to do it.
Then, we need to get rid of all tax deductions, all personal exemptions, and all other deductions for all tax payers (rich and poor alike). Let's get rid of all of those tax deductions, and the sooner the better.
Then, all working families need to pay at least 20% of their income in taxes no matter how much they make. We can have progressive marginal tax rates of 20% of the first 50,000, 30% on the next 50,000 and 40% on everything else above that. That's fair to everyone, but everyone must pay taxes - everyone. Shared sacrifice among all income groups is a necessity. That way there will no temptation to vote yourself part of someone else's money.
We either have to raise taxes or cut spending. Both are bitter pills to swallow.
Fred: I hate to tell you this, but this is already a socialism/welfare state. Look at the Farm Subsidies, the Oil Subsidies, the Energy Subsidies. A rose by any other name?
Why is it people get so irrate when a single mom gets some help from the government?????
I dont want to pay into a program that they say will be broke when I retire. I think a flat tax would be more fair than an progressive one, that just pentalizes people from working harder to get head. I agree with losing EIC and everyone should pay in, that way you can wear the tax payer label, like 1/2 of us do.
grandMaBarb,
Why should the tax payer help a single mom? Get the father to help out, it is not the taxpayers fault that she had a baby. That is welfare.
I agree - all of that has to go to. Stop corporate welfare. Stop individual welfare. The party is over for every special interest group, corporation and individual. Let's piss everyone is this entire country off, and then maybe the spending will stop.
The government is like a big wagon, and there are three kinds of people in this country. Folks pulling the wagon, folks watching others pull the wagon and folks getting a free ride in the wagon.
First, we need to get all of the deadbeats out of the wagon. If you are able bodied, GET OUT NOW. Next, everyone who is able to work needs to help pull the wagon. No more watching others do all of the work and pay all of the taxes. Finally, we need to let everyone know that the government is not your mama. You are responsible for yourself, not the government. How did we become a nation of dependents? How did we become a nation of food stamps and welfare. It's sickening. Do we have no pride anymore?
When folks realize what a burden pulling the wagon can be, we will start electing politicians who promise to lighten the burden, throw people out of the wagon, and require everyone to pitch in and help pull the wagon. That's the solution.
What happens to the people who are unemployed through no fault of their own? What happens to people who are (really) disabled? What happens to people who don't have the education to get a job that can pay the bills? What happens to people who worked all their lives and now are no longer able? What happens to the mentally ill? Who was it that said a society is judged by how it treats the weakest of it's members? All that stuff you are saying sounds good, but I really wouldn't want to live in a society that just throws away those who don't measure up to some arbitrary standard. If I wanted to live in that kind of society, I would move to Somalia. I think we're better than that.
Helping a single mom is one thing Giving thousands every month to a women who has 10 kids and in some cases more with different fathers is just stupid.
Unemployed people already pay taxes. Disabled people, real disabled people, not ones made up should get help. Poorly educated people is not our problem, there are always ways to get more educations, just because you decide not to do it, should not be a burden on the taxpayers. Everyone works their lives and then cant, save and Social security, if the goverment would leave their hands off of it.
If the weakest of members do not even try to be a productive citizen, why should the expect help?
I dont mind helping, but I am tired of helping those that really dont need or deserve it.
You can never do better unless you put forth the effort.
Well don't baggers hate abortion and birth control? So let me get this straight, you actually want everyone to have kids they can't feed but you don't want to help feed them once they are here! Oh wait and you also want to pick and choose who people have these unaborted babies with? Regulating the personal lives of folks sure sounds like a lot of government paperwork to me. But then you hate government right? So if the government gets bigger to manage folks personal lives then that kind of big government is OK. Ok it I got it know but let do a test case on you. I will play bagger government and you play citizen. Who have you been doing the horizontal tango with? Are you protected and who gave you permission to use it? How many kids and fathers do you have and who gave you permission to have then? I don't remember giving prior approval for that to occur. Are you both unemployed due to the down turn in the economy? Well, too bad, I can't be bothered to assist you with buying enough groceries to feed your unauthorized rug rats! But if you abort one there will be hell to pay! WHEW! thanks but I think I will keep my government just the way it is minus the Bagger/Repubs!
You have SOME good points Fred, but why is it that you went straight for the raise taxes route. Why don't we just cut spending to absolutely necessary items and cut out entitlement programs completely. Entitlements are for Socialist societies, not Capitolist societies. I like the idea of say 10% across the board, taken out of your paycheck taxes for everyone with absolutely no need to go through the tax-filing season. With that, no entitlement spending and only spending on infrastructure and defense of the country. That would be the perfect fix (but will never happen).
Nothing wrong with paying tax's, if it's going to fund the goverment. Tax's are bad and don't do there jobs when they are used to try to make the world fair, then they usually wind up sucking at both.
"Why should the tax payer help a single mom?"
Because that kid will eventuall pay for your retirement. Just as you (if you're not retired already) pay for someone elses retirement. And a nation that cuts down on reproduction is destined to fail. I'll give you an example. Germany right now has the lowest birth rate of any country in Europe. Right now there are 3 workers paying for one senior citizen. By 2050 1 worker is somehow going to have to pay for 5 senior citizens due to the baby boomers being elegible to retire. And since birthrates are still declining, the mess is only going to get bigger. You see the trend. So for our futures sake it shouldn't matter who pays for the child. With a good education any child can be a productive member to society. If the goverment pays for those kids, it's in their own best interest.
Where does it stop, one child, two, three, if you cant afford to have kids, why keep having them? Also, how long should we help them? What encourages the moms to do better if the government keeps helping them out over and over again? I agree everyone needs a hand at times, but there is a time to stop giving handouts.
They wont say that Social Security will be broke and wont pay out in the future, because they know people will start demanding them to stop taking it out of their pay checks. They want to milk us for every penny they can before saying, oops sorry.
That kid sees his mom on the public dole, he's not going to want to work either and thus won't be paying any taxes or social security.
the baby boomers are retiring now and for the next decade or so. By 2050, most of us should be dead so I'm thinking you will need to find someone else to blame for the imbalance in 40 years.
I am bloody sick and tired of all of you out there using the poor, disabled, unemployed and elderly as scapegoats for all our nation's problems! There is so much corporate welfare and subsidies given to big businesses (so they can export our jobs), there is an overbloated "defense" budget, and there is all the $$ we spend in foreign countries to pay them for supporting our "policies" and rebuilding nations we have destroyed in the first place. Cut all that stuff first, raise taxes a nominal amount (those who have way too much in the first place aren't going to miss a few percentage points raise in taxes), put people back to work, stop destroying other countries and stop paying them to be our "friends". Do our social programs need to be looked at, and possibly revamped? Yes they do, but they don't need to be entirely dismantled. Don't throw the baby away with the bathwater! There are people who genuinely need help--and they should have it. For all of you "christians" out there who support cutting people off, especially those who are truely in need--according to your bible, didn't Jesus say something like "that which you do for the least of them you do for me" and aren't you supposed to love your neighbor as yourself? I don't see a whole lot of love in many of you.
"We have met the enemy and he is us!" Pogo by Walt Kelly
Yeah, I have been trying to reconcile their political and moral stances for a while know but it just does not work. Except to say there will be some "Christians" that are going to bust hell wide open.
nurse...I do the accounting for the company I've worked for for 22 years. You'd be astounded at the truckloads of tax breaks these companies get. I don't have a problem with tax credits for small businesses for one reason: It's always small businesses that keep the economy from fatality.
The problem is that under Bush, he allowed too many small businesses to be sold off for venture capital without ever acknowledging the number of small business employees who'd lose their jobs. If you have 20 small businesses that hire 20 employees and that small business is sold to a huge corporation who offshores the work to cheap labor countries, how will that not create mass unemployment in larger and larger numbers when that kind of venture capitalism is allowed to grow into an atomic mushroom?
What we have in the US today is a refusal by Corporate America to give up a dime of obscene CEO salaries and the only way they can continue to increase those salaries is to continue their price gouging and layoffs.
This is yet another of the Corporate games that go on in the board rooms.
Mr. Fred Bastiat, that is a pathetic waste of sarcastic irony to support an invalid proposition, namely, that we should be like beasts of the jungle, only concerned for ourselves, without any concern for others. This "dog-eat-dog" philosophy of the world is a slur against a cur, because most dogs are not so selfish and greedy. Why not? Because we generally teach them to be more human-like? You act as if it is a great inconvenience for you to be more human towards other human beings. Are you not getting enough to eat? Not getting enough productive and useful employment? Do you really believe that most people prefer a "dole" over earning something worthwhile by performing worthwhile tasks?
What is the real problem, Mr. Fred? Feeling unappreciated? Hemorrhoids? Constipated? Spiritual naivety? Do you ever consider the value of human society? Should a fiscally successful corporation lay off hundreds of workers in order to make an extra penny on the dollar? Do we imagine, to our peril, that the bottom line is maximum profit, rather than some other priceless values such as being human? Is it possible that being human, in the higher sense of the word, is more important than maximum profit? Can you imagine a world were every action and transaction was based solely on maximum profit?
You went to great effort to tell us what we "need". Would you say that is more aligned with communism or more aligned with fascism? Are your ideas more totalitarian or just plain ordinary brute? What about what we might "want"? What if it feels better to be a human in the elevated connotation of a civilized member of society, rather than just being another animal out to eat or be eaten, or to make the most profit with the least effort? What if it feels better to see other human beings surviving rather than seeing them starving?
I can't answer those questions for anyone but myself. But I can encourage you to seek answers that help you feel more at ease with yourself and with life. Good luck, sir.
I apologize if I have been hurtful to you. That was not my intent. And I mean no disrespect for your person, though I am inclined to ridicule the idea of selfishness even in myself.
Why should the tax payer help a single mom? Get the father to help out, it is not the taxpayers fault that she had a baby. That is welfare.
Unfortunately there are many deadbeat parents - the teaparty deadbeat dad Joe Walsh comes to mind. What is it about the supposed "christian" teapubs that want to control the uterus of a woman but doesn't give a @!$%# about children once they are born? They glorify greed and selfishness and I think go 180 degrees from the spiritual message of the Bible. Why do so many of you want to protect the elite and attack women, children, seniors, government workers, teachers.......I think you get the point. I want nothing to do with those values. Now they've brought down the credit rating of the country by their destructive antics. It looks like a majority of the country sees what they've done too.
Quote from Ghandi:
I like your Christ but not your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
Gotta love it!
Well now, it seems that the liberals are willing to raise taxes on everyone else but not themselves. Sounds pretty selfish, but I cannot say that I am too surprised to hear that.
Here is the basis for my position:
1. Socialism is immoral at its core because it seeks to steal from one group (e.g. progressive taxes at the point of a gun) in order to give to another group (e.g. earned income tax credit) through government intervention. Although the intent may (or may not) be sincere and appear to be helpful to those in need, the method is still simply legalized stealing. Therefore, it is wrong; it is immoral. Take note that in the Holy Bible, there is no such thing as a progressive tithe. God expects everyone (rich and poor alike) to give one tenth. If that system is good enough for God, then it's good enough for me.
2. Legalized stealing leads to corruption. Humans are by their very nature selfish and corrupt. Therefore, you should never invent a system whereby a government is given authority to take from one group to give to another. It is no more acceptable to steal from a wealthy person than it is from a poor person. Wrong is wrong. If you do not recognize that principle, then there is something dreadfully wrong inside of you; you are missing your moral compass.
3. Charity belongs exclusively to the private sector. Charitable giving is not the proper function of government. I am not against charity. I believe in charity, I think you should be compassionate, and I give plenty to those who are less fortunate. However, it is simply wrong to forcibly take money from one person and give it to another. It should be my right to decide to whom I give financial help, money, gifts, etc. I do not trust government to do that for me. I would not trust anyone to make those decisions, except Jesus, and if you will recall, Jesus never forced anyone to do anything.
4. I firmly believe that you must never consume more than you produce. That's immoral unless you are disabled. Therefore, if you are able bodied, you must work if you want to eat. The harder you work, the better you eat. If you are lazy, then why should I be required to give up what I worked hard to give to you?
5. I do not get up in the morning, go to work, work hard all day, in order TO PAY YOUR BILLS. I work hard everyday to provide for my family, to pay my bills and to better my life. If the law requires me (at the point of a gun) to give someone else part of what I earned, then that is simply a form of stealing and more bluntly a form of slavery. Why should I be required to go to work to pay your bills? I do not think that is fair; that is immoral; that is wrong.
6. Borrowing money to pay our bills today and expecting someone else (probably someone who has not even been born) to pay the bill is also stealing. It is generational theft, and truthfully, I do not think people who have not even been born should have to pay my bills or your bills. What kind of uncaring person would think that is a good idea. Therefore, deficit spending is also selfish and immoral. It's stealing and it has to stop.
I need for the government to get its hand out of my pocket, my kids pockets, my (future) grandkids pockets, and my (future) great grandkids pockets. Stop giving our money to someone else. Politicians must stop stealing our money and buying votes with it. If this does not stop, this country will not survive.
That is the bottom line.
Your argument was fundamentally flawed right from the start.
And here's your clue why:
You make such an assertion as this:
3. Charity belongs exclusively to the private sector. Charitable giving is not the proper function of government. I am not against charity. I believe in charity, I think you should be compassionate, and I give plenty to those who are less fortunate. However, it is simply wrong to forcibly take money from one person and give it to another. It should be might right to decide to whom I give financial help, money, gifts, etc. I do not trust government to do that for me. I would not trust anyone to make those decisions, except Jesus, and if you will recall, Jesus never forced anyone to do anything.
Following that up by saying this:
4. I firmly believe that you must never consume more than you produce. That's immoral unless you are disabled. Therefore, if you are able bodied, you must work if you want to eat. The harder you work, the better you eat. If you are lazy, then why should I be required to give up what I worked hard to give to you?
Its flawed because you ASSUME that abuse of the social safety net is "rampant" and "out of control". And at one point (perhaps 15 years ago), you were right. But now? You're simply wrong. Sure, some may "game the system" out of laziness, but for MANY, MANY more, who work just as hard as you if not harder, its the final lifeline keeping them (and perhaps their entire family) from that last step into homelessness.
So now that we have the obvious stuff out of the way, let me ask you this:
Why is it that you find such distaste in social programs that many people actually need, but take little to no issue with "corporate welfare" that riddles our tax code, and has kept the poverty line creeping upward for years?
You don't have to answer that. I already know the answer. Hypocrisy knows little bounds.
Oh, by the way....
Jesus was a socialist. Try actually "reading" a bible sometime.
“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
Matthew 25:40
Your "bottom line" is baseless.
Tea Tards 20%??? Dems have had the presidency since 2008 and control of congress almost exclusively since 2006. The debt has grown by leaps and bounds in that time period and the Tea Party has been screaming from the top of their lungs to stop the borrowing and spending. And because they refused to pay for this mess the Dems created with Tax revenues, it's their fault??? You people are delusional.
#10 - Fri Aug 5, 2011 11:32 PM EDTYeah, the S&P specifically stated our refusal to pay the bill and politicizing the debt limit IS the problem. Do you not understand basic English?
Maybe a basic knowledge test as a prerequisite for voting isn't such a bad idea after all....
Hello, anyone home McFly? The Tea Party wanted to pay a much bigger bill. 2.5T was the compromise and the Tea Party had to have their arm twisted on that. If you think that if the Tea Party had said, "Yeah sure, 2.5 T over 10 years is fine with us even though we 14.4 Trillion and it projects to be 26 Trillion at the end of that period, we are OK with this", would have caused S&P to turn cartwheels, you're delusional. We got downgrowed because there are doubts going forward that we CAN pay our bills. Not because we can but just don't like too.
George W Bush George W Bush George W Bush George W Bush What are you missing? Oops! Wall Street Wall Street Wall Street Wall Street No, that aout covers the crap makers. If you want to be pissed off get onboard!
BigDrop -- The TEA Party clamor was 'don't raise the debt limit - we won't default'. The TEA Party did not want ANY cuts, they did not want to raise the debt limit at all. You don't think that spotlighted the immature, irresponsible thinking of the TEA Party?
GOP NO TEA
The Dems created this mess through tax revenues?
Um.. lol?
How do you create massive debt by taking in too much revenue?
We are paying out more money they we are bringing in. I think we are bringing enough in, just paying out to much where we shouldnt.
Pick your favorite handout here that should be there. EIC, Paying farmers not to grow, give tax cuts to oil companies, giving money to foreign countries, the list goes on and on and on.
If you had a child, support it. If you bought a house, make sure it is one you can afford. Dont buy a new car you cant afford, but a new or used one you can.
Corporates and individuals all have to give up some. I think it is time for the 48% that is not paying and the corporations that are finding ways not to pay to pony up and leave the middle class alone for once.
oh ya, and we need to fire all those in washington for letting this happen in the first place.
This is what happens when you let the prisoners run the prison, havent we learned "you cant fix stupid" some people are just set in their ways and will never change. If they were on the Titanic they would keep rearranging the deck chairs and yelling were not going to sink your just delousional. When people go to vote in 2012 take a look at what gas cost and what your food bill is and if you even have a job and if your better off than you were in 2008.
BigDrop...Planning on admitting when those bills started to come due? That's like trying to say you spent $30,000 on your credit card in 2006 but you don't think you should be held accountable to pay that debt until 2012. Come of the BS. Did you think Halliburton was hired only because they were the ONLY corporation to work in Iraq? How much of that debt are we paying for now? How much to XE? How much to KBR?
Not only that but you also manage to conveniently excluse the cost of war reparations we owe to Iraq. A war we never needed to even get into and was totally manufactured to help Bush/Cheney's military industrialist cronies.
Actually, delusional though we may be, yourself included, BigDrop, the obscure fact is that old bugaboo the filibuster, flagrantly used and abused by the irresponsible ideologues in the Republican senatorial caucus, has defeated the Democrats' legislative efforts, time and again, to enact legislation that would have helped the economy, would have helped our nation, and would have helped the whole of humanity.
Just as you are citing a fact in a devious manner in order to obfuscate the truth, the Republican leaders have likewise employed such tactics, along with outright lies and gross distortions of truth. For what purposes? Certainly not for the purpose of correctly and honestly informing the voting public. And, considering the abundance of historical and economic evidence contrary to the usual Republican legislative intent, it is questionable that the Republicans have an honest motive to act for the benefit of our country. They seem to be more preoccupied with re-election at the expense of our nation, and with their own profiteering rather than the health of the nation. Or else they are just too lazy to do a competent analysis and consideration of all the facts and all points of view. Like Sen. McConnell of Kentucky has stated on more than one occasion, his main interest is seeing that Pres. Obama is limited to only one term. Rep. Michelle Bachman is likewise immune to any honest exercise of integrity. Paul Ryan, Rand Paul, Boehner and many others, have shown themselves to be con artists and flagrant liars who use the media to repeat the same lies over and over to an uninformed public.
Delusional? If only the situation was that good! To put it politely, our political process is infected with Republican deceptions and lies.
Boy it never amazes me how the LEFT keep blaming everyone else but them selves. Helloooooooo WHO had control of the house and senate for many years? The Democrats did and not once did they pass a budget amendment or think about cuts . I am so happy that we as a country got down graded maybe then this Government and people will live within their means instead of spend,spend$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ its called a budget people. Obama needs to step up and be real man and admit he screwed up and his party. HEY OBAMA YOU KEEP TALKING ABOUT SHARED SACRAFICES WELL WERE IS YOURS AND THE LEFT SACRAFICES? HOW ABOUT A HUGE PAYCUT STRAIT ACROSS THE BOARD FOR THE FAILURE OF YOUR SPENDING BINGES, BAILOUTS, ON THE BANKS, AUTO, CASH FOR CLUNKERS AND SHOVEL READY PROJECTS, STIMULOULS CRAP? This money is the tax payers Obama not yours or Pelosi or Reids. The TEA PARTY wanted CUT,CAP,AND BALANCED AND S&P,MOODY's liked that approach but the LEFT refused it. This is what we voters got AA+ and high interest rates. Obama has never created a job or a business before and knows nada about it. Obama you stink.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
piegan, that whole post is crap. Not even worth going point by point.
Lib- You have your opinion and I have mind and your post is crap to.
The Tea Party only started screaming when they began to get money from the Koch brothers. Bush spent like a crack-head and crashed the economy. Obama still has to shovel up the mess created by the last administration with a band of idiots on the other side obstructing everything he wants to do. Did you know that there are at least 4 jobs bills sitting in Boehners office? Why doesn't he bring some of them forward if he's interested in creating jobs? Did you also notice that whenever there's a stalemate, Boehner and McConnell go crying to the Whitehouse for solutions. We need people elected to office who have a backbone. I will not vote for anyone who signs a pledge of any kind. You can't govern with the threat of blackmail. We all lose in the end.
Michael - "Yeah, the S&P specifically stated our refusal to pay the bill and politicizing the debt limit IS the problem. Do you not understand basic English?"
Actually Michael you might want to learn English yourself.
Democrats unwillingness to touch their vote buying programs is the main reason for the downgrade:
"However, one of S&P's explicit criticisms of the compromise was that it didn't address the biggest drivers of the nation's debt -- Social Security and Medicare -- and didn't allow for additional tax revenue."
http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/05/news/economy/downgrade_rumors/index.htm?hpt=hp_t2
In the end it's us who are to blame - for preferring politicians who said there was no problem building up, and choosing sort-term feel-good policies instead of sound fiscal management. Baby boomers, it's your legacy to your children and grandchildren. Ashamed enough to finally do something? I doubt it.
#11 - Fri Aug 5, 2011 11:37 PM EDTHNL, I disagree with you that baby boomers and Americans are to blame for good reason. Baby boomers I know didn't go for short-term feel good policies. They learned from their parents sound fiscal management. Why? Their parents were products of the Great Depression recalling and comparing daily life. My own mother-in-law would save things you most likely would throw out. Aluminum foil was recycled, string of any kind rolled into a ball for keeping, meat foam package inserts used for all sorts of things. Baby Boomers I know are very frugal as they grew up in frugal households. You can blame squarely politicians who pushed agenda's, policies, and ideologies that did nothing more then further a groups initative. Oh...those baby boomers you think should feel so ashamed I'd ask you why. Since they did not craft, okay, support, or encourage the so called feel-good-policies as you state. No...they supported a whole lot of others things but not feel-good policies. During those days no such thing existed only hard, cold reality. Now who's doing something about it?
HNL...Are baby boomers the ones who went out and bought humongous homes they couldn't afford? Don't you dare blame baby boomers when you have a generation of spoiled, overindulged 40 and 50-somethings who can't live without every luxury known to mankind. Don't even go there with that BS.
Younger generations spend their days on computers, texting and cellphoning instead of moving their asses and they have absolutely zero work ethic. They want Mondays and Fridays off and then they dump all of their parenting responsiblities on daycare workers. These lazy asses won't even mow their own lawns.
So...who really created this mess? The 60-somethings who worked hard to help pay off student loans for their kids? The 60-somethings who knew and understood you have to pay your dues in your career and you can't just start with the top position? The 60-somethings who took care of sick and elderly parents and grandchildren so their kids could earn 6-figure salaries to shop till they drop?
The 60-somethings didn't have those 401Ks until the late 1970's and most companies didn't companies didn't even offer them until the early 1980's. Isn't that why the 50-somethings were able to become 401K millionaires so early in life?
Sorry, it's time for you younger ones to step up to the plate. You have to create jobs without our help. You have to break a sweat once in a while for those things in life that are of value. You can't just have it all handed to you on silver spoons.
People were scammed. How many times must you hear it? Look back to the Savings and loan scandals of the 80s. Same scam with a different hairdo.Remember the government set up that resolution agency to get rid of all the houses that were lost. I recall that even Neil Bush was implicated in that scandal.
Dreeves, yes...people were scammed due to deregulation the sacred cow and policy of the GOP/Tea Party. Heaven forbid that regulations be imposed because companies then can't do anything they want and get away with it.
Ewent...11.2 post...careful I belong to the 50 plus group but regardless I do agree with much of your post. I beg to differ on one point that places total blame on the younger generation. How would they know what a work ethic is as you suggest? When we grew up the mentality was to go to school get a college education and you'd have a job for life. You were entitled to make good money and have great benefits because you went to college. What no one anticipated was that there are no assurances for any career and future opportunity despite higher education. Consider, employers have used the same tactics for ages to achieve one goal and that is to operate cheaply and reap the maximum profit. How? Do you recall how often job qualifications changed? One generation of young people needed only experience to be considered a qualified job candidate, the next group of candidates needed both experience and a college degree to be qualified, then another group of job candidates needed only a H.S. diploma to be qualified. This cycle replicates itself based on what is the most profitable for business. Today, many are seeking second, third and more college degrees/certiicates to be the all in one qualified job candidate or employee. The problem is the next cycle will most likely be one that if you wear too many hats you will be to expensive to the company. So, I agree that there is a problem with the perception of the work ethic. I wouldn't blame the baby boomers directly versus the mentality to aspire to achieve better then your parents. Why? Business picked up on this logic and took the lead in manipulating the direction and the means to it's benefit. We subscribed to it and embraced it one generation after another. Young people did exactly what they were expected and asked to do. Generation after generation and time and again. Now I'd venture we all share the blame as we all want the best for our kids. We did what was best at the time to ensure a good outcome. We are not responsible for decisions that were not ours and ours alone.
The U.S. economy just lost it's Boehner.
(shrivel)
Thanks John & co.
Reid my lips,...no new Boehners.
I hope the 5%ers really enjoy their extra gravy,...on top of their gravy,....on top of their gravy,....on top of their gravy,...
#13 - Fri Aug 5, 2011 11:38 PM EDT"I hope the 5%ers really enjoy their extra gravy,...on top of their gravy,....on top of their gravy,....on top of their gravy"
I work a 9-5 job then come home and work until 1:00 am running a company I started because I don't want anyone pulling my cart. And you don't catch me lounging around watching TV at any time. I'm not sopping up any gravy that just fell in my lap. Quit bitching about others that try harder.
not watching TV.... just your computer screen... get back to work
Big Drop...A good American. Thank God there are still people like you with enterprising spirits. Would that the rest of the country took that attitude there wouldn't be a job problem.
Wade...enough with the blame Obama routine. It's not working. This president came into office with zero left of federal revenue...why? This president came into office with 2 wars you now expect him to just clean up with the wave of a magic wand? Why?
What this president rightfully tried to do was make reforms that were sorely needed only to be fought at every attempt. Why? And by Whom?
How is continuing the status quo of allowing the financial industry to bilk Americans going to help resolve the debt? How is allowing Big Business to scam Americans by using deceptive business practices going to help reduce the debt?
How is refusing to admit that there really is zero reasons why American healthcare premiums must be the world's most expensive? How is refusing to admit that without serious campaign reform there cannot ever be clean, unbiased elections?
These were the Obama initiatives most damaged and savaged by Republicans who refused to allow him to do his job. Now, what's clear is that they also denied Americans who voted for this president the constitutional right of MAJORITY RULE. This is what Republicans would love to abolish first.
By diminishing majority rule, they diminish the voice of Americans in government and hand over total control to Big Business already too hideously involved in government.
...and who is fighting the nomination of a Secretary of Commerce and the Consumer Protection Agency? Who filibustered the debt deal, who wouldn't agree to a bigger stimulus package to right the ship of state? Who is the reason we don't have single -payer health care?.......The Republicans in the House and Senate.
What were we suppose to do ewent turn tail and run like a mommas boy, or let them know you dont send terroist to our country and kill our citizens , what would you have done ewent?
@ Big drop... I agree with the Gist of your post..(not your language) but essentially you are correct Until someone has to make payroll and "please" the stockholders, board then many will fault the successful buisness man for being a success... it's high time to stop Blaming the Rich and hold our elected officials feet to the fire.
You should be so proud Mr. Obama to be the first president to achieve this for America. I guess this is all part of the change we can believe in.
#14 - Fri Aug 5, 2011 11:38 PM EDTRepublicans said even before he took the oath of office they wanted him to fail. This is what that attitude caused and the Tea Party are worse
It started in 2000-2008. How much money did we wasted during those 8 years?
"Republicans said even before he took the oath of office they wanted him to fail."
Yeah, they should have held some "Go Mr. Prez!" rallies like the Democrats did for Bush.
It's call being on the opposition, your going to oppose a lot of the other guys bills, and when you get to the diffrent view points in the way things should be done your going to get into fights and hoping he dosen't succeed. Where it becomes a problem is when your willing to sell your soul to make sure the other guy dosen't win.
But then the dems know nothing about this. It isen't like I never heard a liberal laugh at a line that Bush should be assisnated, or a terrorist. Nor in this debate on these forms here a liberal call the tea party tea baggers, or nazi's, or jihadists, or terrorist because they disagreed with there polcy's.
Oh wait never mind I have heard all of those things from liberals.
What kind of opposition filibusters a record number of times, even saying no to even their own legislation when it's offered as a compromise by the other side? Oh yeah Repubs and Tea heads.
Good job on lowering our credit rating guys. Is that part of the 'jobs jobs jobs' you promised, in order to win the House majority in 2010?
Carol, he has failed because his policies were wrong and failed. obama and the dems have nothing but tank our economy.
The failure is the teapubs that threatened filibuster at everything Obama and dems tried to put forward. When one party doesn't give a @!$%# who it hurts as long as they can deny success to Obama, it is clear to a vast majority of Americans. The teapubs clearly said they want Obama to fail, that they WANTED the government to default, they refused a better debt reduction package that was more balanced with cuts AND revenue, and they want all of the pain of this to happen on the backs of the middle class so their billionaire buds are protected. They are ruining this country and the morons that elect them need to get a clue.
Wade, what you just witnessed was a group of greedy and immoral politicians make it harder for the people they represent. Unless you live overseas you are one of us. I've been embarassed by their behavior for two years. If you like what they did that's your opinion, but some of us do not like being made to look like fools. The President did what he could to prevent any harm to the nation at the risk of his own political career. I heard him say this with my own ears. Can you say the same for many others on the right?
The republicans didnt have to want him to fail anybody that can read and look up facts about the man knew he wasnt the right man for the job , you see I graduated before they started the dumbing down of the American school system and those who attend public schools , I learned to think for myself and to get facts not just to believe everything broadcasted from the boob tube.
Market, market, market, blah, blah ,blah. The whole point of this fiasco was so the banks could sneak up interest rates on credit cards and mortgages because they can't get rich anywhere else so raping the common man is the only way to go. The in the pocket media is scared to say this just like they are scared to talk about insurances when mentioning businesses and the econmy. Think about it, you have to insure your house, car, health, business property, property you work at, people at the property you work at, people who work for you while at work and (hopefully) people who work for you round the clock. Then, you have to pay absorbitant amounts for any event that is more likely to occur in your area. In addition none of these fully cover you and you need supplemental insurance to be fully covered. SUPPLEMENTAL INSURANCE! Now, if that's not an oxymoron I don't know what is. Why can't there be one insurance for all? Because it's a SCAM, that's why. And if you try to collect you have to sue, it takes years and years, and by then you're fareaking SOL! Get rid of all these insurances and we will all have plenty of money. HELLO!
Obama's got to keep buying his votes, who cares about debt?
"However, one of S&P's explicit criticisms of the compromise was that it didn't address the biggest drivers of the nation's debt -- Social Security and Medicare -- and didn't allow for additional tax revenue."
http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/05/news/economy/downgrade_rumors/index.htm?hpt=hp_t2
OMG people, I am sorry, the democrats knew this would happen when they controlled everything. They waited on purpose, cause a big issue with it and now you blame the Tea party and the Republicans.
The Democrats owned it while bush was in office, and they did nothing but run up the debt, of course Bush signed it, but they created the eariler ones.
Now when the republicans have one part of the government, it was their fault.
I dont blame the Democrats on everything, but I do think they are behind most of this.
Then we can blame Congress and wonder boy in the whitehouse. They were told if they couldnt come up with 4 trillion in cuts, we would be downgraded. What do they care, it is the working class that will pay for it now. The will have to raise taxes to pay for the extra interest we will not have to pay.
Well, the planet Earth, the soon to be Ex-United States of America.
So you dont think the democrats have any blame in this at all. Seems to me that you are blaming Bush on the everything, but the democrats controlled the Congress and had to agree to everything at the time, not like he could do it all by himself.
The dems have blame, but no where near as much as the GOBaggers. Obama caved. Bush was a figure head Cheney and Cheney's corporate interests. He wasn't to blame. He wasn't even awake. How can you blame him?
Obama came up with $4T in cuts. Were you not paying any attention (as a teabagger, probably not).
The Tea-party must of been doing something right, they got voted into office saying they would go after tax cuts, and people were shocked when they fought for it.
I blame Repbulican and Democrats alike for getting us here, not of them deserve to be in office.
Here is the 2Trillion dollar question. Why didnt the democrats do the budget when they controlled all 3 branches? And dont say the republicans stopped them.
hmmmm, people were asking to see his plan, but no one ever did get to see it, much less vote on it. And I am not a tea-party, but I do understand what they wanted.
Obama is a joke, and it shows more every day. Without really raping the Middle Class, this country is bound to enter bankruptcy soon.
Richard, Bush had a Republican congress for 6 of his 8 years, and the Tea Party ran on creating jobs.
So are you saying that the democrats did not vote on anything during Bush's time, especially the wars? Didnt Obama say he would bring the troops home? They are coming home on the timeline that Bush administration had put forth.
I think the democrats, the republicans and the tea party all ran on creating jobs, not of them have done it yet and with the way the economy is going, it wont happen in a long long time.
Show me the cuts, he interupted prime time TV too give out a campaign speech on how we need to raise tax's on billionares, and millionares. But I don't remeber am saying what we need to cut in wasteful spending in the defense department, or the EPA. Our about changing SSI, Medicare, or Medicaid to save money in that speech. Nor have I seen any written plan of his that deals with any of these issues.
If you want to thank a democrat for sitting down with the GOP and hammering out a plan on the debt deal, it needs to go to Harry Reid.
Harry Reid was as lame as Obama was in making this deal. Neither of them had the fight required to stand up to the Republicans. What is sad is that Obama knew the consequences but went along with a bad deal just to get the raise. We needed someone like Harry Truman in there raising some hell - instead we got the constant compromiser. I was waiting for Obama to get mad and tell the people just what was at stake, but he kept to his professor-talk instead. And I couldn't believe his fundraiser speech when he said one of the ways we're getting out of this is to build electric cars and sell them all around the world! Who will be able to afford them? How will we afford to build them?
Obama needs to stop compromising and get just as vicious with them as they are with him.
He will never do that, he is afraid he will lose some votes if he does.
Pres. Obama had the 4 trillion dollar deal on the table, Boehner walked away two times because the Tea Party refused to deal with any reason and refused to increase revenues because of their traitorous pledge to Grover Norquist. The blame lies right on top of the Tea Party's heads, period. We have to get them out of office in 2012 or we are doomed. S & P said it very plainly, it's the dysfuction in the House that brought the downgrade.
What $4T dollar deal, someone send me a link to the actuall plan..
Let me guess we cut everything you like and nothing we like..
You know there was always another way, just freeze spending right were it si, solid to the core. No increases in budgets at all for the next ten years. Do you know that would be way way more than $4T in saving right there..
Compromise is simple, get out a list and everyone list out what they think we can cut.. We compare lists thosewe agree on go. WHen that's over we pick from the other guys list $ for $ until we get to $400 Billion. Its not that hard.
Want to put taxes on the table, fine, You get 50% of what you want $400B in taxes = $200B and I get to pick where the cuts are for the $200B. Dollar for Dollar.
SImple, get over it.
Richard, how does it feel wheen you have Stockholm Syndrome? Just curious.
I was a card carrying republican for 35 yrs until now. To the GOP this whole mess is of your own doing and whatever happens happens. Obama tried and because you wanted to make a point, well now you see what you have done. Oh and the so called letter you signed onto with Norquest, what were you thinking that letter had no meaning whatsoever and now the whole country is laughing at you. You have lost my respect but even worse you have lost my vote.
#16 - Fri Aug 5, 2011 11:39 PM EDTObama tried? Tried what? The budget he submitted earlier this year had a +1.1 Trillion deficit, voted down by the Senate 97-0. That's trrying to fix a debt problem??? What planet have you been on when the debt went from 9T to 14T in this first two years (with a favorable congress I might add). I'm not saying the Repubs are blameless in, this mess did start under Bush, but to say "Obama tried" is borderline lobotomy-territory.
Not sure how you people think the Tea Party trying make a point is their fault here. If it wasn't for them, the deal would have been around 1T in cuts not 2.5T and we'd be looking at an even worse rating.
The S&P said themselves, the politicizing of the debt limit combined with the absolute refusal of Congress to raise taxes IS the problem. It's pretty black and white.
Study some economics. You can't cut spending during a recession and expect to get out of it. Put people back to work and that will help the deficit. Give people jobs building/repairing infrastructure. This will remove them from unemployment rolls, they will be paying taxes, and we will have something to show for it. It is totally unreasonable to try to pass a balanced budget amendment. Nearly everyone uses debt-how many people pay cash for a car, house, college education nowadays?
Raise taxes? We are spending at a 1T to 2T deficit annual clip right now. We only have revenues of 2.2T If you increased taxes 25% on every person and corporation that pays taxes, you are still woefull short and the debt keeps growing. You couldn't raise enough through additional taxes if you tried. And that doesn't even address the tens of trillions of unfunded liabilities that the govenrment has over-promised. Spending is the problem my friend, I have no idea whay you guys can't put 2 and 2 together.
BigD. That is why BOTH spending cuts and Revenue increases are necessary. You can NOT fix the problem with just one or the other.
Well, it will put us into a deep, deep, recession because businesses aren't hiring in this environment. Add on new taxes and it will grind to a hault. But I agree, this big a mess it is going to take some revenue. The problem is, it just becomes part of the income and they'll raise the spending some more. They won't fix the problem then lower the taxes.
Simple tax increase aren't going to be enough, suggest a new tax system that is more of a flat tax on everybody. We can also increase revenue by selling a lot of federal land that is not really used for anything (how much of Utah does the federal goverment really need) would also help.
GOP used the Teabaggers to get themselves back in control. Now they can't control them. Stupid GOP.
BigDrop, your delusional status is showing.
The foreign wars were "unfunded", until Obama got into office and the debt burden was included in the $14 trillion you speak of.
Businesses aren't hiring for the predominate reason that there is a lack of demand for their products and services. Demand is slack because the people at the bottom of the economic heap don't have money to spend. The Republican "strategy" will virtually ensure that there is less and less demand by withholding ameliorative measures that involve relatively meager "capital investment" in our most important capital asset -- our people.
Pres. Obama and the Democratic members of Congress have been working hard to institute financial improvements. I can't remember the entire list. I do remember that some Republicans have consistently defeated all such efforts by using filibuster (threat of the same), or by attaching innumerable counterproductive legislative revisions to good legislation. Favorable congress? Where have you been hiding? More like a ball-and-chain Republican dead-weight congress.
For you to say that Pres. Obama has not tried to act and lead responsibly and with great integrity and respect, shows that you are not only delusional, but grossly misinformed and uninformed. Or else you are a deliberate liar.
Meanwhile, it is established fact that many corporations are reaping huge profits, while paying little or no taxes, while laying off many workers, and while moving operations to other countries.
I love corporations, and I love jobs, and I love capitalism. I don't like dishonest and/or unfair business practices, and I don't like being economically victimized by unscrupulous business methods and philosophies. If you think that maximization of personal profit or corporate profit is the sole or main reason for existing, then you have some condition more perverse and pathogenic than merely being delusional. That philosophical "ideal" lies at the heart of our present dilemma which is hardly ideal according to most folks, including yourself apparently.
Not sure how you people think the Tea Party trying make a point is their fault here. If it wasn't for them, the deal would have been around 1T in cuts not 2.5T and we'd be looking at an even worse rating.
Teapubs wanted to make a big stink about raising the debt ceiling, so they manufactured this "crisis" in the first place. They refused to heed the warnings about what could happen in default. The debacle is DIRECTLY related to the ratings downgrade (not the only thing). They refused a bigger reduction because they refused to include revenue, (much like they forced an extension of the Bush tax cuts last year). They want more dissension in the coming year, which is scaring pretty much everybody. While there is other blame to go around, the vast majority of it goes to republicans/teaparty, which is reflected in the poll currently. Way to screw the country, teapubs.
@16.11 -- Wrecking the economy to get rid of Obama was their plan all along. Looks like they are succeeding. As McConnell so eloquently put it "my number one job is to make Obama a one-term president." He forgot to add "at any cost."
Sometimes you have to burn down the village in order to save it.
Michael - "The S&P said themselves, the politicizing of the debt limit combined with the absolute refusal of Congress to raise taxes IS the problem. It's pretty black and white."
Michael - You understand that saying things doesn't make them true don't you?
S&P's biggest problem is the Dem vote buying programs, that they of course refused to touch. Who could blame... how else would they get a vote?
"However, one of S&P's explicit criticisms of the compromise was that it didn't address the biggest drivers of the nation's debt -- Social Security and Medicare -- and didn't allow for additional tax revenue."
http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/05/news/economy/downgrade_rumors/index.htm?hpt=hp_t2
Only country in the world that would sink rather than raise taxes to cover our costs. If we were an indepedant country that didn't rely on the rest of the world to borrow money from it would be different but we're not, people around the world are watching our every move and they're not happy.
#17 - Fri Aug 5, 2011 11:40 PM EDTThink of how many countries would suffer if we were not there to help. We are one of the most generous... of course, there is always a price.....
Only country that would sink rather than cut spending. What's your point?
Look, revenue has been very consistent the past decade, it is spending that has gone through the roof. Not sure why you think that needs to stay the same and now we need to go out and raise the income level. It doesn't work that way with any business or household I know of. Sure as hell should work that way with the country.
BigD. Tax revenue is way down due to the Bush tax cuts and the fact that 25 million people are unemployed and not paying the taxes they were paying when they were working. It is not possible for that many people to stop paying taxes or reduce the amount they are paying and not have revenues drop. You are deluding yourself if you think tax revenues are the same as they have always been.
Not true receipts are around 2.17T about the same as 2005. Peaked about 2.55T in 2007. We are only talking about a 18% drop during the worst economy since the great depression. Spending is what is way up. Outlays have gone from 2.4T to 3.8 T during that time frame, that's a 50% jump. Spending is the problem, my friend.
It is not the spending. Obama's stimulus was not big enough. We need another one, but the dimwit Republicans will block it. Tax and spend, tax and spend. It has gotten us out of the hole before and it would do it again.
Liberals forget when the economy grows the revenue from tax's increases, even if the rates on peoples income drops. Bush's problem wasen't the tax cuts it was the expansion of goverment that happen under him that wasen't paid for.
We need another stimulous?? Go borrow another 700 Billion and plow it into a bunch of wasteful projects, then pay service on the debt? Are you on dope, son? Worst 700 Billion ever spent.
Well, our state's website lists a huge number of jobs that were saved or created with the money they got from the stimulus. Teachers. Firefighters. Police. Foster parents. Road construction workers. Higher education. Green energy projects.
The Governor announced Thursday that in the last three months, nearly 5,000 jobs were funded by $224 million in federal investments through the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, better known as the stimulus program.
I personally know a number of teachers whose contracts were renewed after the stimulus passed.
\Now, I know you just can't stand the thought that Obama did something right. But if you'll take off the blinders you might be able to help dig this country out of the ditch. It's hard to dig when you can't see.
Comparing years without the adjustments for inflation is stupid. Add those in or you can't do any comoparisons.
Why don't you Cons tell me how Portugal's austerity plan is going?
Here's a clue. Not well. Cuts only will not work. Every reputable economist is saying the same thing. It didn't work in the Great Depression either, it made it worse.
Most of the public agrees with the idea that we need increased revenues as well. It's only one vocal part of the right wing that disagrees.
An austerity plan is going fix a huge, long-term debt problem overnight like a magical bullet? You people are screwed up in the head big time.
RebuliBaggers: The enemies of the US have stated we would destroy ourselves from the inside out: with our greed, our arrogance and our religious fundamentalism. Welcome to the new world order. American as a third world country. Thanks GOP.
#18 - Fri Aug 5, 2011 11:40 PM EDTIt is so much easier for ignorance and prejudice to proliferate, than it is for knowledge, intelligence and reason to prevail. The first takes little or no effort. The second takes diligent, perseverant work, something Republican-types are not usually proficient at. "It's too hard", they whine. As usual, they ignore the evidence and fall back on trite misinterpretations of even good or worthwhile ideas.
This is your economy.
This is your economy on "Hope and Change".
Any questions?
It took 7 more years and a world war to get us out of the last depression, remember the "great depression?" All because our president let the idiot right talk him into "debt reduction." We went from 13% annual growth to 3-% annual growth in three years after the new deal was scotched. I believe my figures are more correct than less.
Obama has had 3 years to get us out of the mess the GOP and Cheney got us into. All with an obstructionist congress. I don't understand what it is about reality that you people just can't face. It really is time to grow up.
Yeah, the looked very "obstructing" passing Obama care and the stimulous. Now you guys are blaming the right on FDRs decisions, comical. Just look at Greece, Italy, Spain, Ireland, Portual, and California. All have massive debt problems and are in big trouble. And not one of them got that way by "reducing their debt." You guys are funny. But I will admit this started under Bush.
Cutting spending on programs that help the bottom 90% of Americans is exactly the WRONG thing to do right now.
And I can prove it, because it was tried before.
FDR was talked into one year of cutting government spending as the Great Depression was ending. The result? "An unmitigated disaster":
Just under three quarters of a century ago, a group of conservative economic advisers close to Franklin Roosevelt informed the President that they were worried about the rapid rate of growth in the US economy. Since 1933, when FDR took over at the height of the Great Depression, the economy had been expanding steadily, at an average rate of 14 percent per year. Schooled as most of these advisors were in the tenets of economic orthodoxy (which called for cuts in spending during an economic downturn), and unsure of the effects of the Keynesian-style deficit spending that the administration had been engaged in under the terms of the early New Deal, the President was advised to cut the budget, reduce deficit spending and tighten the money supply as a means to stave off inflation. Heeding their word (and no economist himself), FDR did just that.
The results were an unmitigated disaster.
Thanks to the Administration’s decision to move away from the increasingly Keynesian policies it had been following — policies that saw the unemployment rate fall from a high of 25 percent in 1933 to 14 percent by 1937 -- FDR launched one of the sharpest economic downturns in American history-the so-called "Roosevelt Recession" of 1937-38. In just a few short months, the GDP declined by 13 percent; industrial production by 33 percent; wages by 35 percent and an estimated four million people lost their jobs. No fool, FDR quickly reversed himself and went back to Congress to seek a massive stimulus bill to put people back to work and repair the damage to the Depression-era economy. Within three months growth had returned and the economy was back on track.
The history lesson Obama has ignored
BigDrop - you forgot Texas:
Deficit-Ridden Texas No Longer Laughing at California
That sound you hear coming from Texas officials when the subject of California comes up is no longer chortling.
It's more like choking.
[A]fter hiding the truth for more than a year, Texas state government now admits to a two-year budget deficit of $25.5 billion, similar to California's shortfall on a per-capita basis.
The Texas budget gap comes to about 30 percent of the state budget; California's to less than one-fourth of recent yearly spending.
Now, considering Texas is a "low-tax, small government" state, how do you explain how they got this way?
I live in Texas (Houston) and it is not the huge issue it is in California.
1) We created more jobs than all other state combined in this recession, we can certainly generate some tax income to help close the gap. California? Businesses are leaving the state in droves.
2) We have a $9.4 billion "rainy day fund" that will be used. Try saying "California rainy day fund" without tearing a rib muscle laughing.
Texas unemployment was low, until everyone moved here trying to find a job, now we are supporting them, please go back home :) We have enough illegals that we have to pay for already.
And HOW did California get so far into debt??????? Could it be that California had the terminator in charge? Arnold was a major mistake for California. Republicans are not fiscally responsible in office, in business or at the kitchen table. Totally lacking basic math skills!
Texas the brilliant mathematician Rick Perry. I have an idea, let's have Rick Perry become President of the USA and just finish this country off completely? Anybody want to live in Texas?
I dont think it really matters who gets elected, this country is on its way out the door.
Dang, if Obama runs and Perry runs, i need a third choice. Not sure who would screw us up faster. Is mickey running this year?
Is today the day Rick Perry holds his big prayer fiasco? You teabaggers and republicans vote for him and you know what he'll say about America sinking? "Just pray no need to do anything else." What a joke he is.
Rico
Texas is'nt doing so bad, is it.
Back to my Tall Iced Tea & Stogey
I've noticed some Obamabots, are closing posts.
Obamabots are like children, when presented with facts, they close the door and hide in the closet, because the monsters might get them. BOO rrrrr
Back to my Tall Iced Tea & Stogey
LCS...guessing you followed his wonderful suggestion about the drought and prayed. Did it help? My point is who would want a president in office who when facing a dire situation whether he/she has or hasn't any control over it wants to hear a banal "Pray for rain"? In my book he's sleazy. Always has been and always will be. Back to my air conditioner and some of the highest deregulated energy costs in the nation. Lol....remember when they told us how our electric bills would significantly be reduce by deregulating electricity? Mine doubled! Another Republican lie....sighhhhhhh
Add another "historic" accomplishment to the charlatan marxists resume. Wow, hope for change, please!
Big Drop - This is Hope and Change trying fight rich lying bastards.
Obama and several of his democrats are not telling America the truth. They do plan on taxing the poor and middle class BIG TIME! Snopes has confirmed this to be true.
Obama is always saying we should tax the rich, well tell me Mr. Pres. why are you and several of your democrat cronies devising a plan to tax every banking transaction in US 1% of it's value. Meaning every bill you pay, every withdrawal, every check you write every sell of home, auto, or anything that passes through an American bank will be taxed one percent. And, why is it that you are hiding this fact until the election is over?
Do you think Americans are that stupid? Well you are right, liberals are that stupid.
Corporations in the US are moving outside because Obama creates a very negative atmosphere for business and jobs in the US. Then, you have the big unions who Obama is in bed with that suck business dry and make it impossible to fire a non-productive, lazy worker.
So all you liberals and fools just keep blaming the republicans who are trying to stop some of this extreme spending and keep your precious Obama so that we can all go to H..L in a hand basket.
The only way Snopes would know that for sure is if he's tapping the White House phones.
Now, why does that sound familiar?
My earlier comment collapsed by Community... (ahh the Horror) Any ways it is amazing to me that when the Left uses Snopes as a source it's valid but when someone is Right leaning then it is "Suspect" The Same with S&P:
In a statement, a Treasury official stressed that S&P reaffirmed the nation's pristine rating, adding that the agency assumes lawmakers will begin implementing a long-term debt plan by 2013.
Then disagree when it suits them.... Sorry President Obama cannot "smooze" this one over... Your the President... Take responsibility.... Bush did.... Oh yeah... Your too busy Running for Re-election... See you on the campaign trail while your Senate continues to act without your leadership. "It's the Republicans and TEA party fault... yeah..... at least they are working, Changing the Narrative, Submitting budgets, Not afraid of the electorate... serving their constituents... What was the Dems doing for the last 3 years?.... Oh Thanks for the Health care and 9.1% unemployment.....
Sorry for sounding "snarky" and all due respect to the President ( it is a difficult Job) but.. can ANYONE tell me ONE piece of legislation that he authored, Or ONE budget that the Dems submitted... Oh I know ONE The Reid Proposal submitted at the end of negotiations which even the President didn't consider.... great.
It would be nice if the big boys in DC would think about our country instead of themselves and their corporate handlers.
Eventually the people of this country will realize what criminals they are. Folks, elections are a year away. Use your brains and VOTE.
If we get out and vote. The prevailing attitude, it seems, is many Americans don't care.
The problem is that people believe anything the idiots say. There were many people that voted for Obama because they really believed he would pay their bills.
We create laws to protect the stupid people and the gene pool is so corrupted now, it may never clear itself up. If you have to put a label on a hair dryer to not use it while still in the shower, there is something wrong.
Richard, it appears from this statement that you are swimming in that gene pool!
Really, did I say anthing that isnt truthful? There was a lady on tv that said now that obama is president she wouldn have to pay her bills no more. There was a lady on a radio show that said the same thing.
And hair dryers do have the warning on them.
So guess you dont have anything really good to say, so you try to show your ignorance by saying something stupid. Either show facts on what I am saying is wrong or go back to believing whatever obama tells you.
+1 to the corrupted gene pool.
You have got to be kidding me! You take the word of a lady on TV and another woman showed up on the radio saying the same thing..........do you think just maybe it was the same woman? You could believe "these" women. Let me tell you why........because your brain only works as a recording device. If you heard it on TV and radio, DAMN it has got to be true! Have you ever heard of Rush Limbaugh and his bag of crap? You probably believe every word he says too. Learn to think for yourself instead of repeating the same tired crap by the racist capitalists that are making money by getting so many stupid people to believe it and repeat it! Crap in and Crap out! Don't break the chain tell a friend, tell a neighbor and don't forget the stranger standing in line with you.
No I dont believe everything I see or hear on tv, I dont believe Obama has a clue what to do with this country, not matter what he says on TV or the Radio. I have heard him talk and seen the economy go into the toilets.
The Economy is getting better, I heard obama say it on TV, it must be true, NOT.
I can say I didnt vote for him, for my own reasons, but once he was elected I did tell everyone we need to give him a chance, well we gave it to him, welcome to the change and hope he promised us. I know it was the republicans or TP or Bush's fault, he really did try to do good or I am racist, all these are getting old as his song and dance.
I dont listen to Rush, thank you very much.
and i don't believe you have a clue. this problem has been a long time developing. but Bush and company got rich, as did their friends, as a result of the wars in the middle east, Republicans in general are lying thieves, who do EXACTLY what the rich who own them tell them too !!
President Obama has acted pretty much as well as anyone in his position can. the President actually has very LITTLE direct control over what laws get to his desk, all HE can do is sign them or not.
remember the republicans position on taxing their rich friends next election foilks, or get ready for more of the same !
to those who voted republican, watch your retirement disappear !! those of us who are poor do not have much to lose!
stevew220, you started out good but you blew it in the end. you are obviously not a poor person. take away twenty percent of a rich man's money and he may complain but he can reorganize his life easily. he won't like losing money but a rich person will never starve. take away twenty percent of a poor person's income and you create a devastating scenario. poor people live from paycheck to paycheck. small increases in the cost of living are usually life altering. one of my friends had to stop driving his car because he can't afford the fuel. medical bills usually cause havoc in poor families. don't think poor people don't have much to lose. every penny counts for them and don't ever forget that again.
TO:Richard~~~ Pres. Obama does know what to do. But he cannot pass a bill or spend money without it passing the House and Senate!!
The problems is the same since his first day in office. The Republicans are committed to making him fail and they Do NOT care what Damage they inflict on Americans and the economy. They're all about power, and are the right arm of Corporations who want to do away with regulations and taxes. Another very important point is that All the bills that Pelosi (2009-2010) years when she was speaker of the House (200+ bills) were Blocked (Filibustered) by the GOP in the Senate.
Many of the Bills that did pass the Democratic Majority in the House prior to 2011 and were designed to create more jobs, and close tax loopholes for those companies shipping jobs abroad were Blocked by the damn GOP in the Senate!! *** Although the democrats had more of their members in the Senate than the Repubs, it wasn't the enough members to avoid the required (60) dems in the Senate to Avoid the GOP Block (filibustering) of the many great bills Pelosi had passed in the House prior to 2011. !!
The first step. Denial...you have it and your denial and people like you in denial are the major problem. You can't spend what you don't have. Unless Obama and the dems will irresponsibly bail you out. If you think it is tough now just wait until Monday. Obama will go down as the worst President in the history of the U.S. when this is all said and done.
This is what happens when a rigid set of ideologues (TEA) holds the US economy hostage and extorts a horrendous deal that does not properly address the problem.
The president offered a $4 Trillion dollar deal that properly addressed the issues and GOP/TEA refused to approve it because they demanded a one-sided approach that protected the tax-cuts for the wealthy.
And so this downgrade rests squarely on the the GOP/TEA party.
The next election will be won by Democrats because once the inner city people realize their handouts are in danger, they will vote in droves.
REALLY, but you left out another group of people....the working MIDDLE CLASS who have paid for social security and medicare ALL their lives and now see republiCONS wanting to gut it all in the NAME of small government. SMALL government REALLY means: EASIER TO CONTROL GOVERNMENT. Watch out for dictatorship (when BIG business OWNS the middle class)
Social security and medicare....is the BIGGEST protection of the middle class and one that BIG business with the help of the republican party wants to DESTROY. They know that raising the retirement age to 70 would cut MOST people off benefits, thereby destroying the effectiveness of those programs helping the middle class.
Soon the working middle class will be too small to make much difference in elections.
Not when 51% don't pay federal income tax. They'll vote to continue for the top 5% to pick up the tab.
Is this a great country or not? Not for long if this crazy spending continues!
ANYone but a republiCON in 2012. Unless you want a dictatorship.
CJ- Have you ever opened a history book? If you read about dictators and look at what the Democrats' are doing, their one in the same.
CJ - Have you ever opened a history book? Read up on dictators and look at what the Democrats do, they're one and the same.
Really. When exactly did the Tea Party idiots who caused this Congressional mess become Democrats?
Bren, I have opened a history book, the Nazi's held the german government hostage for "change" much the same way the teaparty just held our economy hostage. I guess you think Hitler was a free market visionary.
AND I am so sick of republiCONS going off on single mothers on welfare. My family all have worked, My Husband was in the Army. And when he passed away, we had 3 children. I went for a day of fishing by the river to relax. On the way home my brother and sister in law stopped by a bar/cafe. And while I am waiting for service, some drunken redneck asks my name, do I have kids, do I have a husband, didn't ask if he had Died. He starts in on how he is sick of paying for myself and my children. How I should get my ass off welfare and go to work. I worked my ass off and so did my husband. I worked before I met him, after we were married, and after he died. We are a working family. That was a Lesson I will never forget. You don't know what a Woman's past, present, and even what there future will be. So shut up, republiCons! Since, when did the US become such a horrible country that we don't take care of are women and children. And feel justified in displaying such harassment as a badge of honor. It is one of the most dishonorable ways a man can display himself in public. When my grandfather died they called him the red-cross of his town. Because if he saw a family in need he didn't wait for welfare. He went out and got them food, clothes, etc. with my grandmother you never entered her home without being over fed, and taking something home. My Dad was the same way, he said don't Even borrow something without already seeing it as something you can give away. That way you don't worry if it never comes back, including money. He told the kids as they walked out the door fill your pockets full of candy, both pockets. And that has carried through our family. We stock up and give clothes and food, money, etc. We are not an organization we are a working class family. So if they don't like single mothers on welfare, and they want small goverment. Get off their bar stool, couch, computer whatever, and help some one to get back on their feet and you help feed their children. That's what to many of us have forgotten to give of ourselves. Didn't the President of the United States call for just that. There is even a website.
REMEMBER, the poll has republicans and tea party listed seperately. But they are one.
Obama's just another vote-buying, tax-and-spend liberal elitist.
America will be bankrupt soon enough, and then there simply won't be any money to send to all the welfare collectors. There isn't an endless supply of wealth in America. Eventually it will all be exhausted, then the welfare collectors will have to fend for themselves because there won't be anyone available to do it for them.
Obama is unlucky to be the president at this time. Debt based monetary system, with it's exponentially increasing interest demand guarantees bankruptcy of the borrowers. We have reached the end game.
www.kondratieffwavecycle.com/web-of-debt/
winston, I think the citizens of this country, and more importantly our children and theirs are the unlucky ones. Obama's policies aren't working.
There is nothing Obama or anybody can do. An entire nation cannot borrow for decades and then hope that all will be fine when the pay back time arrives. Compoun interest is an exponential function. Debt will have to skyrocket, or Great Depression will arrive. Pick your poison.
winston, I think the citizens of this country, and more importantly our children and theirs are the unlucky ones. Obama's policies aren't working.
So what would the Republicans do? Cut taxes and continue the wars? Maybe have a stimulus? Oh wait...that's what Bush did, and Obama continued to do. I'd hardly call that "Obama's policies". It's funny when Republicans talk about Obama not making the right decisions and all the decisions he's supporting are republican ideas. Didn't Mr. House Leader get 90+% of what he wanted with the debt ceiling deal?
Even his precious Obamacare has Republican ink all over it and is nothing that any Democrat really wanted.
Bush tax cuts have been in effect for 10 years: No jobs. A republican being in power would probably have fired tons of government workers (even less jobs) and been at war with Pakistan or Iran by now.
I disagree sambat. Conservatives in the House passed multiple bills addressing this problem and they were all met with a resounding "no" from the liberals in the Senate and under threat of veto by Obama. The Ryan plan also addressed getting rid of tax loopholes, but all you heard from the Democrats and their ring in the nose liberal press was it would kill Medicare and Social Security and Grandma would go hungry. All lies swallowed hook line and sinker by the uneducated liberal masses. If Obama and the Democrats say there is nothing they can do, then they should get the hell out of the way and let those that have been addressing this mess aggressivley take the reigns. Even those that go bankrupt start working on a path to recovery. I'm a conservative and I have no problem with raising taxes as long as they are raised on every penny of income from every citizen and company in this country. Close all loopholes and exemptions. Same percentage of income paid to the government by every citizen. Place tarrifs on imported goods to level the playing field and this country might see manufacturing return. There is plenty that can be done, but the Democrats would rile those that were recruited based on promises of taking more from others so they could keep theirs in their pockets. Again, if Obama and the Dems can't do anyting about the problems of this country, they need to get the hell out of the way.
Good stuff deprogrammer. It doesn't explain that the recovery under Reagan included adding 238,000 jobs per month for seven years as opposed to the dismal numbers under Obama. Unemployment under Reagan went from 9.5% to 5.2% when he left office. Right now, jobs are what we need and Obama's stimulus was a resounding failure in that regard. His administration has not hit one of the benchmarks they had projected when they were talking their policies up. I voted for Obama and have been sadly disappointed.
Regan also raised the debt ceiling 18 times and raised taxes!
Yes, Presidents raise the debt ceiling. This is nothing new! The difference is when a President allows Congress to introduce tons of new spending, such as the two years the Congress was owned by the Democrats. The showing of leadership would be vetoing the legislation when it does not coincide with making sense. Reagan allowed growth to evolve and mature. He did not just add a ton of new spending along with new taxes, that type of leadership is just stupid and ridiculous. Would you yourself ask your creditor to raise the limit and then start spending more in your daily life?
I'm for raising taxes network-gal. But not the liberal way where you only want taxes raised on the rich so you can keep yours in your pocket. Everyone should have to pay for the priviledge of living in this country. Taxes will have to be raised at some point and it should be part of a complete change in our tax policies and every citizen should contribute. Give me an economy under Reagan any day over the one we have under Obama. I know Obama did not create this problem, but his policies have hurt more than they've helped.
Unfortunately, Lanikai, most of your fellow conservatives believe in the illogical "cut taxes and lower debt" strategy. Because of this strategy's requirements to lower debt while decreasing government revenue, conservatives' only possible solution is to cut spending. Well, have I got news for them! Eventually, we're going to run out of things to cut! Don't blame the Obama administration for your own fiscal short-sightedness! The question is whether conservatives will finally realize that they need to raise taxes before or after our nation is crippled irreparably. You need to spend money to make money, folks.
Additionally, it is an obvious fact that poor people can afford to give less money than rich people. This is why we should raise taxes on the upper-middle class, the rich, and most especially, the super-rich elite. After all, what are they going to use those billions for? A fifteenth mansion by the sea?
The way to solve America's problems is NOT to say no to any tax increase, as the Tea Partyers somehow believe. Let's start by voting out all the people who can't compromise to save their souls. (oh wait, they don't have souls left.) Let's give the poor Obama administration and the Democrats something to work with. They can't always be the ones who have to bend over backwards to make things work.
You're joking right? Always the ones to bend over backwards? What planet do you live on? They rammed through a Health Care bill without even knowing what was IN IT! NO COMPROMISE WHATSOEVER. YOU are a pathetic mindnumbed koolaid drinker.
I live on earth. There is no point in providing factual information to you because I can tell you believe the republican spin. Truth be told, you'll be hurt just like the rest of us by blindly following the republican strategy. And, my only salvation to this embarrassing debacle is some of us know better. I'm sure you are not a stupid person, just miss-informed. Open your mind. The earth, where we both live is not flat.
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ALL of them had something to do with it. Instead of United, this country is DIVIDED, and there's your proof!