I can't believe what I'm seeing here - an awakening on Wall St.??!!

Somebody must have taken their ether masks off............

Amazing MSNBC...one of the biggest stories of the week and you don't even have it on the headlines.

Best to take a look at the predictive accuracy of the credit ratings on businesses from S&P and Moodys (not the CDO and MBA ratings). There are fairly strong at predicting the future of an enterprise. This bodes very poorly for the US as there is no wiggle room for higher rates on debt service.

All Americans lives will be affected as this plays out. Unfortunately, it is like a frog getting boiled slowly....not many will realize it until they are already cooked.

Once again...pathetic reporting MSNBC...

I see S&P still hasn't come to grips with the reality that America's credit rating is no longer AAA. On the road Obama has us, we will be just like the P.I.G.S. in Europe very soon.

But then again, that's just what he wants. Enjoying that change yet?

S&P is the same company who was giving all the mortgage back securities AAA ratings based on variable interest loans to people who didnt deserve it.

S&P is worthless.

And so continues the GOP assault on the economy and good sense in pursuit of their backwards and dangerous ideology. Reducing the deficit is going to require all 5 items: cut medicare costs by means testing and more efficient delivery; cut social security costs by means testing and raising the contribution limit; cut defense by at least $100 billion per year; cut other discretionary spending carefully so as not to throw a monkey wrench into the gears that drive our economy; raise revenue by increase taxes on wealthy individuals and more tax incentives for business to invest in job creation in the US. All 5 required.

REMEMBER, S&P in bed with those who engineered the financial disaster.

You know, those junk bonds that were rated 'Triple A'...that weren't supposed to be. Who was doing the rating? Yes....

What's the purpose of cut spending when the liberals keep spending for all those welfare programs which to me is a waste of effort. If the Democrats/Republicans are really serious about getting this deficit down then they need to STOP spending the tax payers money like it's nothing. Otherwise the deficit is still going to grow higher and higher. Obama, Soros and all those liberal extremist got it down pact, they want to bankrupt the system and it all came out of the big man SOROS's mouth at a convention in Europe. That's is why Obama is not serious about cuts in the deficit but yet he has the balls to insult Ryan's plan well Obama's plan isn't all that great either. Enough with Obama's boring speeches it's the same ole rhetoric nonsense. That's why Biden fell a sleep.! I would be to if I had to keep listening to Obama.

"Obama said in an interview with the The Associated Press on Friday (4/15/11) that fundamental questions about how to change benefit programs such as Medicare and Medicaid or the tax system might have to wait until after the 2012 presidential election.

He said he would have to offer spending cuts to win votes...." (Taken from MSNBC Article "Obama Assesses GOP Budget ...." 4/16/11)

Does that leave any question as to where Obama's priorities lie?

If the U.S. would lose its AAA credit rating, that would mean the world banks would no longer price commodities in dollars but another currency; that would cause a inflation in this country equal to Argentine of the 1970's, around 200% overnight !

A total collapse of the Nation !

Obama's "investment for the future" is to BORROW $200 million EVERY HOUR on the HOUR which is BANKRUPTING in real time EVERY man, woman and child, AND the UNBORN.

The man is a CRIMINAL spending our VERY future on democrat special interest groups

Obama needs to be indicted, tried and convicted of TREASON, and GENERATIONAL THEFT

Palin/ Bachmann 2012

___________________________________________________________________

Before you leftists start in with your talking points did you actually LISTEN to Sarah's latest (and brilliant as usual) speech?

She speaks "truth to power" and like it or not Obama is the most powerful man in the world

I see that MSNBC now has this as a top story....guess your editors figured that if the other news sources had it as a big deal...maybe MSNBC should too. Guess the administration and Immelt will be upset because you couldn't downplay it. Oh well....

There both not serous yet about making cuts. Ryans plan is no different. Obama's plan kicks the can down the road and Ryans plan kicks the can out of the field of play. If they were serous then their plans would also include DOD, which both have said DOD is off the chop block.

I could never vote for Ryans plan until they addressed the issue of medical cost that is un-real and addressed the monopoly style private insurance rape that every one is experiencing. Ryans plan forcefully pushes you into the open arms of high priced insurance carriers. It may be a conspiracy theory but i thought it interesting that both plans lead the public to paying more to private carriers without the debate of premium costs. My theory is its not a coincidents because both sides get kick backs from the leading carriers. Just a thought.

When the economy tanked in late 2008 my very first thought was "who on earth would be stupid enough to invest in america again after this? how many times do we have to rip people off before they'll realize they are being ripped off? this money didnt "disappear, all those bankers are rolling in it - and holding their hands out asking for more...and we gave them more!" *GIANT FACE PALM

Im only 32 and i've already seen peoples 401k's wiped out 3 times, a handful of years apart...and each time I hear the same thing "you're young enough, you'll make all that back"...um, not if the stock market magically tanks every 4-5 years taking all my "earnings" with it.

So S&P gives america a poor rating?

Is that a shock? Only the most arrogant and ignorant amongst us still walks around thumping his chest yelling "AMERICA IS THE GREATEST ON THE PLANET, F YEAH!" and actually believes the BS they are spewing. The only thing we are best at, is screwing our fellow humans to our benefit.

At some point, you run out of people to screw...and all those folks you screwed, will join together to take you down...

do I want america to crash and burn? no, but i believe in karma...and i have the feeling we are long over due.

edited because the thread I was replying to was deleted

"very much a shot across the bow that you can't simply cut taxes and increase spending in perpetuity and expect there to be no ramifications"

You mean you can't spend your way to prosperity? What a surprise.

It only took 2 years to accomplish something that has never happened before, there is the "change", now the "hope" is simply that we survive.

. tax the rich? and the corporations? use your head. a company is in business to make money. they will simply reduce the workforce. and that is what we have been going trough for over two years. when the tax cuts were extended business picked up and hiring began although slowly

Being a middle class person, I find it disturbing that people honestly believe raising taxes on the wealthy is going to solve anything.

This is a spending problem. Always has been since the 40s.

Raising taxes won't solve anything and will slow the economy. Those super rich spend in America and donate in America. You keep taxing them, they will go elsewhere. Same with businesses, you raise taxes on those and they will cut hires. This isn't rocket science. Businesses and individuals WORK in order to create wealth for themselves...not give it to others.

It's also about needing a flat tax. The super rich through 'LEGAL' means are able to deduct down into a lower bracket..same as many middle class people being able to deduct lower.

The lower tax breaks never were a problem. It was the fact that the Federal Government spent beyond it's means and revenue.

How ridiculous is it that the financial markets would put so much stock in the S&P's opinion on ANYTHING considering how off the mark they were on the very financial institutions that caused the financial meltdown in the first place!!

These are the same asshats that were giving the highest of rankings to everyone of the 'too big to fail' institutions that were responsible for the greatest recession/near depression that we have seen in a 100 years!

oh AmericanGirl,

Always the blame game with this one! I was not aware that the S&P is the Republican party. (it's not, if that helps you out)

The only thing Obama and the rest of the democrats understand is spending our money. Tax and Spend - the democrat credo. Don't expect that to change while they are in control!

This article was no surprise to me. I don't know why anyone would be surprised since the problem STILL has not been addressed. The govt. needs to stop spending what they do not have.... End of story!

seems to me that the tax and spend democrats just worked out a budget that cut spending with the spend and spend republicans. Both ryan and obamas plan includes even more cutting. But keep pointing to one side or the other. you can always prove you are right if you say it enough times.

Until wallstreet is accountable for the money it is stealing from the middle class, it doesn't matter how the nation's budget deficit is dealt with, the middle class will bear the lion's share of the burden.

I believe it was Obama who wanted the Bush tax to expire and tax the wealthy, raise taxes (over $250k yearly income), and cut spending..none was agreed too by the republicans of course! People forget so fast!

I hear people talking about playing robin hood all the time and it is not wise. the rich will just turn around and make us the consumers and working folks suffer. We keep squeezing them and they will just take their businesses elsewhere. I think instead of just raising their taxes make them pay a penalty for sending jobs to other countries. We need to get back to making our own stuff. Also we need to control Pensions. almost a quarter of the budget goes to pensions. Make them pay a 401K or something similar like the rest of us. They shouldn’t get special treatment just because they work for the government. unless they are Military or law enforcement they need to pay. then we need to bring our kids home and cut spending in the middle east. We don’t need to be the world’s baby sisters. Let them kill each other. i know that sounds bad but for the mean time we can’t even take care of ourselves so how are we to continue. This isn’t a left or right issue this is a lack of leadership and accountability on both sides. Obama needs to do his job and stop worrying about starting another welfare type system with Obama care. That is something we just can’t afford right now. So he needs to refocus and stop dragging his A$$ trying to use the situation to get votes.

These stupid politicians are more worried about votes than they are about America. We need to cut spending across the board and make all individuals accountable for taxes, no matter what bracket your in. I find it highly disturbing that almost 50% of us households don’t pay taxes. I also find it highly disturbing that companies get tons of tax breaks while sending jobs overseas. They shouldn’t get to get the tax cuts if they don’t have at least 70% of their work force AMERICAN CITIZENS. Also if you can work and don’t than you don’t get welfare period and if your illegal than your kids can’t be considered an American. Amend the 14^th amendment. Cut down of criminals (that’s what they are) from leeching off our system.

BOTH parties share in the blame for our current misery and NEITHER is serious about truly reducing spending (yet).

If there is to be a true effort to cut spending, it will include spending and staffing level cuts across the entire spectrum of the government, cutting only the things you don't like while failing to address those you do isn't being fiscally responsible.

We have yet to see any progress on this vital issue but the good news is 2012 is an election year, so we're at least going to hear a lot of talk about it!!

Awhile back, the chant was "Double A USA". It really isn't fun and games anymore. The US bond rating drops and in addition to a 14 trillion national debt it'll cost the US hundreds of billions in added interest and it'll just keep getting worse. The writing is truly on the wall. You can cuss the parties, Wall St., Corporations, the Super Rich. This is the way the financial markets work. The blame game won't cut it. It'll take a major cut in deficit spending and the national debt to start a downward trend or it'll be the beginning of our country's financial demise. Geithner better quit the politics and start realizing the responsible people will address this issue.

Don't waste your time arguing with each other! It's them (the Federal Government, Corporate America, and the Elite) against us. They are very educated and adept at their game. Their solutions are deceptive, fraught with lies and scare tactics, and are meant to divide the population. Their goal is two-fold; Amass personal wealth and power (without stepping on the toes of their worlds counterparts), and to keep their DC clubhouse opened for as long as possible.

When Democrats and Republicans debate, it is over how big a piece, of our pie, each will get. We've been filling that pie with the fruits from our labor for too long.

Can you empathize with the subjugated classes of foreign countries. They sacrifice their lives to change their currupt, oppressive regimes. Some succeed, others are slaughtered. Consider the possibility of that happening on American soil (again). Don't, for one second, believe the United States Federal Government wouldn't turn its military might against its own people if their self-serving establishment was in serious jeopardy.

Anyway! The good news is one lousy green Bell pepper is only $1.49 at WalMarts, and I'm so old I don't need much food to live on.

Flat tax now! Increasing taxes on the wealthy will barely make a dent. There aren't enough of them to go around, and it's too easy for them to pull up stakes and relocate to tax havens.

It's fiscally irresponsible for any country to exempt 45% of its population from paying any federal taxes. Everyone should pay something. Besides, you don't value that which you don't make some investment of money or time & effort. If everyone at least paid something, you can bet there'd be a lot more voter scrutiny of how the money got spent. As it is now, you have huge segments of the voting population assuming that someone will pay for everything; of course they're not particularly motivated to demand better government accountability and efficiency. For example, it's no wonder so little of the money spent on public education in this country actually makes it to the classroom...

joe mota " Reducing the deficit is going to require all 5 items: cut medicare costs by means testing and more efficient delivery; cut social security costs by means testing and raising the contribution limit"

So, basically, you're saying the 'insurance company' (U S Govt) that took all of that money you put into the 'annuities' to cover your old age retirement and health care needs should just 'change the rules' and say "Yes, you contributed $900,000 towards your pension and health care needs, but you don't need it as much as someone who didn't pay in nearly as much, so we're taking yours away and giving it to them.

That's a nice way of saying to the people that the government owes $2.5 Trillion "You don't need it, so we're not paying you back - especially since I already spent it anyway".

Somehow, some way, this had to be Bush's fault, I just haven't had time to figure out the liberal spin yet.

Rob-523523 its difficult to tax someone who isn't making any money or whose income is so far below the federal poverty level it doesn't register. I suspect some of the folks in this 50% bracket fall into this category.

Until recently I have never paid any taxes either at tax time, but have loaned the federal government 10s of thousands. I suspect this 50% crowd also includes people in this scenario as well.

So for those of you going on-an-on about the 50% that don't pay taxes, get the facts and lets get on down the road with the real issues. America has a debt and revenue problem. Do you really think you can toss millions of jobs going back to the loss of steel mills in this country and not have a revenue problem?

Since the first grade we have all been taught there are always 2 sides to an equation. It is going to take a longterm serious effort of shared responsibility to address this issue. Anything less is chaos which some of you are advocating today, by saying "shut it down". Be careful what you ask for...

Madison From NY

Before you leftists start in with your talking points did you actually LISTEN to Sarah's latest (and brilliant as usual) speech?

Did you just use the word Palin and brilliant in the same sentence? BAHAHAHA! You are likely just as intelligent as she is.

Back to the short bus with you.

For those who aren't paying any federal taxes, for whatever reason, is it fair then that they should be able to cast votes to drive policy that makes someone else pay for it all? Seems to me this is a slippery slope, particularly as it approaches 50% of the population. Theoretically, why wouldn't a majority of non-tax-paying voters dictate to the minority that does? Why wouldn't they ultimately use their voting power to make others pay for everything?

The partyline repeaters here should have read the article a little better, it says this problem has been brewing the last 5,10, 15, 20 and 30 years. It is not one president's fault, it is the fault of the Congresses' and President's over the last 30 years of both parties. You can go ahead and believe the liberal Democrats and the conservative Republicans, they are lying to you. They are here to serve the lobbyist's with the most money. Here is a novel idea, why not take all of that lobbyist money and put into account to help pay down the deficit. If they want to talk to a congressman make a donation into the fund.

If the GOP and Tea Baggers would realize that allowing the Bush Tax cuts to die, to sunset, as they were designed to do, that this is not a tax increase but a step back into reality to a tax rate that was reduced from those taxes imposed under Reagan and Bush 41, it would have added 4 trillion daollars in two years to the coffers and gone a long way towards paying down debts. Can anyone see the correlation between the amount of debt ($14 trillion) and the amount cut out of our national budget over 12 years under Bush 43 ($12 trillion). Sometimes the GOPers and Tea Bagger's stupidity is so stark; like in the case of the Bush tax cuts. The scream "Stop Spending!" and they scream "Don't raise our taxes!" Unfortunately, both are necessary and unfortunately no one in those two parties has any real background in fifth grade math.

All investors should make decisions about the ramifications of this event (and future events) by looking over tools like the volatility index VIX:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VIX

Your mainstream broker or 401k manager is NEVER going to tell you to sell - no matter how bad the economic climate gets. They get paid regardless of your performance. Use the tools available and make your own decisions.

If the Fed. Govt. was a business it would...

Layoff or fire outright.... shall we say 25% of it's non-defense employees.

Reduce spending by... lets say 25%... in other words 50% of "discretionary" spending.

Reduce the pay of those remaining... by 50%... they make twice the national average so ... they're not going to starve.

Suspend or dramatically reduce charitable contributions... make of that what you will... we give a lot away at home and abroad.

Take steps to insure that the company (Fed. Govt. in this case) never goes this far into debt again or for the same reasons... defending the nation is the only legitimate reason for Federal debt.

In other words a corporation would fix the problem... long ago... and make the "fix" permanent.

"They" need us... except in matters of defense... we do not need them.

Tax corporations? Corporation pass taxes through to their customers... you pay those "taxes".

Wake up. The only way out is out.

Rob - That drivel about "only the rich pay taxes" only holds water if you define "taxes" SOLELY as income tax. 36% of federal tax revenues are from PAYROLL taxes, which only workers making up to $106,300 a year pay.

And that piece of the pie has gotten bigger every year. Meanwhile, CORPORATE tax revenues have fallen to their lowest percentage of GDP in history - 12% of all federal tax revenues.

Share of federal tax revenue

The Numbers: What are the federal government's sources of revenue?

So before you go taking away food stamps and Earned Income Tax Credits and Medicaid and low-income heating assistance, I suggest you go ask your corporate buddies to pay their fair share.

From Senator Bernie Sanders, (I, VT):

1) Exxon Mobil made $19 billion in profits in 2009. Exxon not only paid no federal income taxes, it actually received a $156 million rebate from the IRS, according to its SEC filings.

2) Bank of America received a $1.9 billion tax refund from the IRS last year, although it made $4.4 billion in profits and received a bailout from the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department of nearly $1 trillion.

3) Over the past five years, while General Electric made $26 billion in profits in the United States, it received a $4.1 billion refund from the IRS.

4) Chevron received a $19 million refund from the IRS last year after it made $10 billion in profits in 2009.

5) Boeing, which received a $30 billion contract from the Pentagon to build 179 airborne tankers, got a $124 million refund from the IRS last year.

6) Valero Energy, the 25th largest company in America with $68 billion in sales last year received a $157 million tax refund check from the IRS and, over the past three years, it received a $134 million tax break from the oil and gas manufacturing tax deduction.

7) Goldman Sachs in 2008 only paid 1.1 percent of its income in taxes even though it earned a profit of $2.3 billion and received an almost $800 billion from the Federal Reserve and U.S. Treasury Department.

8) Citigroup last year made more than $4 billion in profits but paid no federal income taxes. It received a $2.5 trillion bailout from the Federal Reserve and U.S. Treasury.

9) ConocoPhillips, the fifth largest oil company in the United States, made $16 billion in profits from 2007 through 2009, but received $451 million in tax breaks through the oil and gas manufacturing deduction.

10) Over the past five years, Carnival Cruise Lines made more than $11 billion in profits, but its federal income tax rate during those years was just 1.1 percent.

Magnum Serpentine - I vote we start with Big Snake's plan!

Then we'll see what else we need to do.

Those of you in this slew of comments that want to place blame on one administration really need to get their heads examined. This didn't happen overnight. We got to bear the brunt of this between 2007-2009. It is currently 2011 and it took a lot of years prior to create this mess. Three administrations, Clinton, Bush and Obama all have a hand in this. In the mean time your local politicians are taking their share and everyone in between.

All politicians including the precious little Tea Party are all corrupt in one way or another. They have let greed overshadow any pride in this country. This once proud nation is being brought down to the level of a third world country. Our priorities are so out of whack we can't recover because we are teaching our kids that the greatest thing you can be is popular. Pro athlete, singer, movie star etc......Pop culture is in the front seat with everything else in the trunk of the car.

Now we get to sit back in amazement as we watch politicians raise millions if not billions for their own personal Super Bowl. The one that happens every four years called the Run for the White House. They can get all the money in the world for this event. The country is out of control and they will take time away from their offices that we elected them to in order to play the game. We elect the President for four years, not three.

Wish I had more time but I have to jump of this soapbox and head on down the road.

Wow didn't take the War Loving, Military Industrial Complex loving Neo-cons long to collapse my comment, 2 hours gotta be a world record.

Sorry, but I am correct in this. Reduce the Military Budget to 100 Billion a year no exceptions and we will have plenty of money for the other programs.

Read it and weep neocons!!!

After hearing this news in a cabinet meeting, Obama walked slowly back to the oval office. Stepping through the door and closing it behind him, he peered out the window with a sneer on his face and spoke silently to himself... "its working!"

Yes, the "First Amendment-Loving Tea Party" is the first to get on and collapse comments that don't agree with their narrow point of view.

Then they pull the "projection" trick and scream "Look, the libbies are trying to censor us!"

@Madison in NY

I did not know that education, innovation, and infrastructure were schemes of private interest groups, thanks for letting me know. /s

RAF: "Rob - That drivel about "only the rich pay taxes" only holds water if you define "taxes" SOLELY as income tax. 36% of federal tax revenues are from PAYROLL taxes, which only workers making up to $106,300 a year pay.

And that piece of the pie has gotten bigger every year. Meanwhile, CORPORATE tax revenues have fallen to their lowest percentage of GDP in history - 12% of all federal tax revenues."

Um, you can call it drivel all you want if that's how you get your jollies, but the point was in support of a flat tax. The tax breaks go out the window.

Also, the payroll taxes you cite are primarily related to Social Security, a program which was supposed to be entirely self-supported, that those paying in would (on average) get it back in retirement. However, it was created at a time when life expectancies were less, and the retirement age has not since been adjusted accordingly. So, it has since turned into an entitlement program, and many now end up getting back much more than they paid in.

Obama must be celebrating

It's the GOP that is celebrating their own continued success in trashing the American economy. President Obama has been trying to improve the economy. And when the GOP stays out of the way, he has succeeded.

It's the Republican Party that has repeatedly driven the car into the ditch and now wants the keys back. The S&P rating was reduced because the TP and the GOP keep threatening to default on America's debt. That's not a good way to restore confidence.

Rob-523523 "For those who aren't paying any federal taxes, for whatever reason, is it fair then that they should be able to cast votes to drive policy that makes someone else pay for it all? Seems to me this is a slippery slope, particularly as it approaches 50% of the population. Theoretically, why wouldn't a majority of non-tax-paying voters dictate to the minority that does? Why wouldn't they ultimately use their voting power to make others pay for everything?"

BINGO. You've figured out the liberal strategy - Make enough 'voters' beholding to government handouts that they will keep voting for the "income redistribution" that they crave. If you can't earn it yourself, take it from someone else - It's called the "Robin Hood Effect". Others might call it "legalized theft".

"only the rich pay taxes"

Baloney! The wealthiest households in America pay a paltry 17% of their income in federal taxes, and that includes FICA taxes, which amount to a mere 0.01% of their income.

The poorest households in America pay 15.6% of their pay in FICA taxes alone. The middle class pay 15.6% in FICA plus up to 15% or more in income taxes, nearly double what the wealthy pay.

No more welfare for the rich households. Let the leeches pay their fair share of taxes or leave the country.

As for rich corporations, eliminate the tax on corporate profits and replace it with a much smaller tax on corporate revenue. That way there's no place to hide.

Great idea, have everyone that makes over $16,000 pay 15% flat income tax including the corporations, plus NO DEDUCTIONS ( no EIC, no Morgtage deduction, no charity deductions, NOTHING!!!) , for ANYONE!!! That way the corporations pay , and the leeches who use the services the most pay their fair share. Sounds like a fair plan.

AP just reported these figures from the IRS in today's paper. The average AGI for the top 400 returns was 345 million and the average tax rate for those returns was 17%. The average tax rate for all taxpayers was 9.3%. 45% of all households (not individuals) pay 0, zero, federal income tax. This was for 2007 which was the last year the IRS had complete figures for. The top 10% pay better than 50% of all taxes and the top 5% pay 44% of that. These are reported IRS figures. The super rich pay almost twice the national average in taxes. Everybody pays SS tax and Medicare tax and it comes right off the top. The wage cap for SS is $106,300 for everyone. Seemingly, congress wants to revise the IR code to plug many loop holes which total 1.1 trillion or $8,000 per taxpayer. These include, read closely, credits, deductions, and exemptions. The revision, if done, will affect almost everyone.

Little finger pointers, one and all. If you want to do a smackdown on something then look to Greenspan. He was economic advisor to five presidents and his core philosophy was no, nada, zip, zero government oversight and regulations on the financial (money)markets. There was a woman named Brooksley Born, who, during the Clinton administration, attempted to impose regulations and oversight on the derivatives market. Geithner was head of the Federal Reserve at the time and Rubin and Summers along with Greenspan were with treasury and advisers to Clinton.

Born saw the impending disaster, went to the unholy trio who promptly destroyed her credibility via Congress. The rest is history...07 saw the beginnings of the financial collapse and 08 it hit the fan. Obama picked up the ball and turned it over to Geithner and Summers and Bernanke and Paulson. He essentially gave the store back to the armed robbers. To date only lip service has been paid on regulations, the banking lobby is one of the strongest in the country. Both parties are complicit in the ongoing rape and pillage.

All right-wingers ignore the fact that it is their people who engineered us into this hole.

After 42 years of incompetent and irresponsible right-wing "leadership" it is time we go back to what was working - Liberals and Progessives running the show.

That leaves two problems - rooting all the right-wing incompetents surfing the porn sites from their government offices and deprogramming 60 million mindless right-wing minions so they don't blow each other up with all that pent up hatred.

That's right, continue to ignore reality, it hurts to face facts, wouldn't have anyone to hate then.

politicalprisoner: (Hank Hill voice): sounds like the hatred is coming from one source, you! Right wingers usually don't work for the government because govt workers are forced into Unions and you know how Union members vote. Also right wingers are usually not into instant gratification thus less likely to be on Porn sites. Your deprogramming sounds like what the Cambodians did to their own people after it went Communistic with death tolls in the 100, 000s. Finally, until Reagan the US government was mostly under control of the Democrats especilly Congress which rarely had a republican majority except under G.W.Bush. Your not on medication are you?

Bill: love your FLAT TAX idea, but I would pick 10% with no deductions as Obama has already decided to get rid of all of them. This would be so simple and uncorruptable that even rapid left wing nuts ( those who work and pay taxes) couldn't argue it down.

I am reading class warfare in these comments. S & P's ratings should be taken with a grain of salt after the disastrous job they made in the past! However, I, too, believe this will end the domination of the US dollar worldwide. (Thanks, S & P.)

As I wrote before, Barlett and Steele have analyzed our problem in an easy to understand work. Don't deny yourselves the opportunity to learn how corporations and the wealth of the nation are both guilty. The laws are written to benefit the wealthy.

http://articles.philly.com/2011-04-16/news/29425385_1_tax-collections-corporate-tax-write-offs

Retired, You can take them with a grain of salt when hundreds of billions in interest are added to the US debt. S & P and Moody's are the 2 major bond rating agencies and the difference between AAA and BBB can easily hit 5%. AAA to AA is not that steep, but when you talk about the US debt another point or two is a lot of money. I'm retired also and I am an active investor and money, a lot of it, will change hands on a 2 point spread.

...the rich get richer......

Access YOU TUBE... Search for,

"The American Dream by the Provocateur Network"

What the bashers of the rich seem to forget is that if the debt tanks the economy everybody suffers. The 'rich' have a vested interest in the security of the country, they lose when it fails. Quit with the stupid parroting of catch phrases.

Sadly for those who think the way "not as stupid as yo uthink": the rich did get poorer this year.* But it's like my mom says: if you sweat for what you have, you do make wise decisions. If you don't, or if you expect someone else to make things better for you, what little you do have, you'll waste it.

"Waste not, want not."

What's wrong with asking the rich to help pay down some of the debt early to get rid of some the interest?So we pay later.So what.We've been doing that for years.Better to pay back American than Chinese.I can't believe that the rich will hold our America hostage and let it go down the toilet before it helps pays down some of the debt quickly.It's called "Screw Obama's first term".They could easily pay down some of the debt and charge us later,but they would rather have us owe China just to make the POTUS look bad.If they want tax breaks,they should have to stay home.PERIOD! Ya, by making the rich pay more,we will loose jobs.Dollar Tree,Walmart,Kmart,Pier One,and any other Chinese goods stores.That's American for you.

To Magnum in 1.45, yeah, keep lowering the military budget and all you'll have to worry about is speaking Chinese or Arabic, what a stupid comment!

The numbers say that the rich paying more will not make a significant difference, so now what?

It will make SOME difference - undeniably

What we are asking is for the priorties to be in order: don't start taking away for those who can least afford it UNTIL we start collecting from those who can.

Really pretty simple.

Don't cut entitlements/programs/medicaid, etc. until we start collecting taxes from the wealthier individuals and, especially, corporations.

Not....dont you understand that the only real solution is to at least try to live within a budget that is somewhat related to government income. There is no other real solution...and it is your side that is pushing the spending and borrowing....The past is past and the solution should start now(late but better than never) and the leftists just dont get it....It is apparent that the left has no connection to reality....just hope and change....

J.A.

Actually yes, I do understand the simple economic pricipal I believe you are attempting to verballize. However, don't YOU understand that what I am attempting to say is that it is immoral to harm those who are most vulnerable out of sheer greed? If W's tax reductions for the wealthy were reversed, we began collecting taxes from the multi-million dollar corporations (without loopholes/write-offs/shelters, etc.) Then we would be willing to look at reductions.

Now, keep in mind that President Clinton was able to not only balance the budget, but also create a surplus, which should be the first step in reducing deficits; return to that particular place, then look at where cuts can be made (without causing harm nor harship on some) and spending reduced.

But for Republicans to insist that we keep W's economic agenda and only began taking away from the less fortunate to address this financial problem is not only assinine, but class creating and immoral. Our President sees this, why can't you? We should NOT harm people unilaterally depending upon their location in the economic strata.

Not...The Bush tax cuts(for everyone) were started almost ten yrs ago and for seven of those yrs led to an economic boom...Only the last three yrs have been bad and that is linked to the silly government loan programs pushed by the left. You are trying to blame something that was a success....Of course Bush also spent too much money(he was not a true conservative). But the spending in the last three yrs is unexcusable. There never has been a surplus and congress had something to do with controling the Clinton spending...The budget actually was only balanced by stealing more SS money. No one has suggested taking away from the less fortunate...but it would be nice to see the 47% of the public to actually pay a little in tax money....Would you prefer that 70% of the people not pay taxes???

Do I hear you correctly -

President Clinton didn't really balance the budget, W's reversal of Clinton's agenda and programs created a "boom", all the bad stuff that has happened in the US has been caused by "the left", Every good thing that has transpired in this nation is due to Pres. Bush and/or his Republican predecessors, Bush's wars in Iraq and Afganastan are really Obama's wars, and Democrats don't pay any taxes, only Republicans.

Have I got you position straight? Just want to be sure.

Yes, you hear properly, it is only comprehension that is your problem.....

Obama is not responsible for Iraq war....he can only claim two...You seemingly dont understand that there are just as many rich democrats as there are Republicans, but I am sure that you only lable the evil greedy rich as republicans....Certainly no democrats could be evil or greedy in your mind. Tax paying is not a party thing, except the very low income(non tax payers) tend to vote socialist democrat because that is the party that wants(promises) to give them the most....You also dont remember the economic and market bust at the end of the Clinton administration. I dont remember hearing anyone say that Bush made a complete reversal of Clinton programs...Obama is the only president that I remember that ran on that ideal(and it is failing badly)....Sadly, you will never understand....even if you really made an effort. I know that you will not. You will just vote for more and bigger government and socialism. You still have that hate factor for Democracy and free enterprise....

Have I got your position straight? I just want to be sure.

Yeah - I thought I understood you corectly, and I did.

sad

But, hey! Keep spinning, spinning, spinning - you will convert someone!

one way or the other.

You're soooo right Alan.

Unfortunately I'm afraid they're all in cahoots with our "elected" officials. Makes me wonder who's REALLY pulling the strings.

Even that CRIMINAL Angelo Mozilo walked with $40M in his pocket when what he really deserved was a bullet through the head.

What the hell? What's REALLY going on here?

alan, do you realize that if gov't defaults on our debts, interest rates will skyrocket, the world economy will fall back into recession or worse and that we'll be in even more debt as a result? you tea partiers are so full of Bull$hit it's come up to what's left of your brains.

Joe. It's going up regardless. Printing money to pay debt is a default same as not paying it back at all when it is a country doing it.

A restructure is needed but it will be too late when that is figured out.

Ahhh, the Joe Mota's of the world. Even with a sign right in front of their faces (S & P downgrade), they continue to fiddle while Rome burns, and label this a tea party BS issue.

Joe, you are a math illiterate.

Actually, imho, the best thing to do WOULD HAVE BEEN to default at the start of the 2007 Great Recession. Yup, that's right.....we should've let the whole house of cards come rumbling down.....

Now, I know this would have created MASSIVE pain and upheaval in our country. I know it would've destroyed wealth like no other time in history. I know our social safety nets would have been damaged, many people would go hungry and homeless, and there would likely have been civil unrest and chaos.

Yup. It would've been bad.

BUT!! Not nearly as bad as the collapse will be when our government decides it can no longer fund 'quantitative easing', or when the other large economies of the world finally decide we are no longer responsible enough to service our national debt. Just wait until other countries start PUBLICLY declaring they are trading in non-dollar-denominated assets! Wait until we lose our reserve currency status. Wanna see hyperinflation when we try to inflate our money supply out of this problem??? Wanna see what happens when the dollar plummets in value and your life-long earnings quickly evaporate??

Boy, I can't wait to see the bickering that will ensue once the SHTF for real! Some of you think it is the Democrats' fault? Some of you think it is the Republicans' fault? LOL, no........both sides were/have been complicit in our slow destruction for decades. And you can thank the Wilson administration for enabling a group of international bankers the key to our money supply back in 1913 with the Federal Reserve nonsense. You can thank the Nixon administration for removing the gold standard and blasting our future economy out of the good 'ol 'fiat money cannon'. In addition, you can thank every administration since WW2 for the numerous useless wars we funded (for nothing), for pillaging the SS safety net, obnoxious corporate welfare, and the relentless gambling of the middle class' stability through bad policy-making (again, I'm blaming BOTH parties!).....

So, my friends, enjoy the coming onslaught of poverty, hunger, and death! Hope you're prepared!!!

Look at it this way.......back in the late 1920's we had a farm/urban ratio of 1 to 3. That is, for every family that lived out in the country, three families lived in or near a city. Nowadays, the same ratio is 1 to 72. Guess we won't be sending the kids to Aunt Betty's house on the farm once the collapse hits.........bummer. Who will feed them?

alan, a default on the debt would cause a total collapse of our banking system, no cash, banks collapsed, war in the streets over a loaf of bread, solders not paid and the government would declare Marshal law and seize all commodities of food, gold silver, firearms, in the entire nation; it would make the civil war look like a backyard brawl !

The good news? MONEY ISNT REAL

the bad news? it doesnt matter, we all believe anyway.

ever wonder why millions of people on this planet do nothing all day long, when they could be doing something productive? MONEY - there isnt enough on the planet to "give" to them in exchange for "production/effort/output" - regardless of whatever that "is".

We've decided - collectively - there's only a finite amount of money, which keeps SOME folks in power, and keeps the rest of us under their foot. that is the only VALUE in keeping the false belief alive that MONEY IS REAL.

It's a good thing that 1% of the planets population harbors over 90% of the planets wealth...the rest of us get dicked east, west, north and south...and then we point the fingers at each other, so as not to be accused of "class warfare".

That said, would it be the end of the world if americans were knocked down a peg to live like the rest of the world...rather than living like selfish only kids who believe the world revolves around them?

maybe its not always the best thing in the world to pretend like "i got mine, screw you" is a good philosophy.

Actually, imho, the best thing to do WOULD HAVE BEEN to default at the start of the 2007 Great Recession. Yup, that's right.....we should've let the whole house of cards come rumbling down.....

I agree that we should have let the system crash. We've just kept it propped up.

It's not Obama, it's the Republicans who are obstructing recovery all due to the promises they made when Obama got elected, and that is to do all they can to force failure on American, which is the ONLY thing Republicans know how to do, is fail.

American Girl...you aren't too bright.

Obama has spent this country over the last 2 years into oblivion and has tried to distribute the wealth. His 2012 budget will spend more then all other presidents combined in the history of the U.S.

Repeat this over and over. You cannot spend your way out of debt. You have to work it off like everyone else and reign in spending.

Alan - defaulting on the debt would hurt everyone. That means no SS money, pensions and 401k's would take huge hits...every one of us would suffer for many years (decades) to come.

American Girl - it's the fault of both parties and the voters to continue to elect people based on how much pork they can bring back to their district. Neither party is working in the countries best interest - not Republicans, Democrats, or Obama. If they were, you would see support for proposals that both sides could agree on now - such as reducing duplicate programs. Instead, we see Republicans adding policy riders and the president saying meaningful discussion will have to wait until after the 2012 elections.

Sure Allen, we do that and we will all be speaking Chinese......

Joe Mota,

I don't think wanting to default on the US debt is a Tea Party specific sentiment. I had this discussion with a couple friends recently (one conservative and one liberal), and they were both in favor of defaulting.

I think defaulting would incredibly bad for all of us...but I also think most of America doesn't understand the ramifications of this approach.

sam-1402511

Ahhh, the Joe Mota's of the world. Even with a sign right in front of their faces (S & P downgrade),

You do know that S&P gave all those mortgage backed securities AAA ratings prior to just about every single one of them defaulting right?

S&P is garbage and not worth the pixels they are printed on.

Let's see Obama "wins" the budget-cutting battle and races up the Lincoln Memorial high-fiving everyone he can along the way. He gets to keep his out of control spending.

Then, about a week or so later, we get the S & P downgrade.............surprise, surprise, surprise.............and the clueless White House plays it down !!!

I'm sure George Soros is smiling........he is helping to destroy the U.S. currency ! Wealth redistribution anyone ? The new "world order" is coming.

Oh, then we have Mikey again ! When the S & P report doesn't fit your political ideology..........well, it's just no good is it big guy ????????

Joe, the tea party has the math deficiency. They want to balance the budget without the added 2 trillion a year that the Bush tax cut eliminates from the coffers. They think allowing that tax cut to sunset is a liberal tax hike. They do not realize it is a return to sound fiscal policies of the 90's and also that that tax rate was a reduced rate under Clinton from the Reagan and Bush 41 rates. Silly Rabbits, math is for kids. Tea partiers and GOP'ers stick with your social slut issues and let the smart folks deal with the deficit and budgets.

jmonarchy - please explain how the tea party has a math deficiency.

Here is a thought.

1. cut entitlement programs by 75%

2. move to a flat tax 10% with ZERO deductions. This would mean that someone making a million a year would pay 100K, someone making 100K would pay 10K and someone making 10K would pay 1K. Everything is fair and proportional. Sorry, I just stepped on someones toes about being fair.

3. Reduce the staff of politicians by 20%.

4. Audit every dime of the campaign funds of our elected officials. Find out who is really paying for these clowns to get elected. This includes real dollars and the so called soft dollars.

5. cut off Government support of any organization which is not supporting EVERY member of our society. (so long Planned Parenthood, National endowment of the Arts, SEIU and groups like ACORN).

6. Trim the tax code and reduce loop holes. If there is a loop hole, find the congress person who asked for it and audit them yearly for the rest of their lives.

7. Leave Job creation to the private sector.

The best thing the government can do is default on its debts

No

No

No

No

No

Even with a sign right in front of their faces (S & P downgrade), they continue to fiddle while Rome burns ...

And the Tea Party and GOP throw gasoline on the fire!

The S&P downgrade is the result of the GOP playing budget games while the Tea Partiers yell "shut 'er down".

Contrary to bunkum GOP politicians are selling, creditors do NOT like to hear talk of "we're not gonna pay, we're gonna go bankrupt instead."

There was a time when the Republican Party stood for fiscal responsibility. But that was all in the last millenium.

benram: well thought out. I cannot imagine anyone being against a FLAT TAX, it is fair and provides EQUAL JUSTICE UNDER THE LAW! Everyone is included and will rid us of the 40% who pay no taxes, including GE. The Republican party lost it's way under Bush; increased government and spending. The TEA Party is setting them straight. It is also setting the Dems straight, otherwise we would not be having this conversation.

benramz2 and cal20:

I agree we need a smaller government and a consolidation of redundant agencies that mimmick each other in doing nothing but having the same cause. Inefficient workers should be fired, government workers should be held to a high standard of performance. The joke today is; government jobs are for those that could not survive in the private sector. I am a moderate and I believe in small governemt but selective demolition of the government must be methodical or you start another round of massive unemployment growth and further screw the delicate economy.

There is something very flawed in your philosophy and that is it lacks the very essence of fairness and humanity that you seem to feel it is full of. Cut what entitlements? Medicaid and Welfare and Food stamps and Hud assistance, etc......???? Well, those programs are there for a reason and let me tell you something; the cost of those plans are not that bad considering the help it provides (Even if some ride the system forever) and imagine the domino effect it would have in increased crime if these uneducated and lifetime welfare folks suddenly had to compete for food and care for their children.

Your 10% flat tax is another inhumane idea. Take away 10% of the money a family earns (Let's say it is $10,000 a year, plus now they have lost 75% of their entitlements). You are setting the nation up for a huge crime wave, because no matter how poor a man is, he is going to feed his family and if that means killing you, so beit. This man has not benefited much from the land of opportunity, so you say he deserves to pay the same percentage as the man who has been able to take advantage of the great opportunitiy America offers and the man earning 50 million a year should only pay 10% too. The opportunity is there in this nation yet only about 2% ever really attain great wealth in this country. Are the rest of us middle classmen lazy bums? No, these wealthy folks were at the receiving end of the opportunity and by God they deserve to pay a proportionately larger share of the taxes. If they don't want to, let them move abroad where the tax rates exceed 50% and have them bitch and complain there.

I say let the states pay for every one of their congressmen and senators and all of their staffs and expenses and mailings and websites and leases and toilet paper and supplies. The Senators from Minnesota do not represent what I need in Florida. This cuts 8 to 10 billion out of the federal budgets and the states would likely flip out seeing what each one spends and cut back that spending themselves.

I'm with you on item 4 especially since the SC allowed foreign donations and the hiden donor BS that gives to the USCOC which doles the money into certain campaign coffers. I'm for a vote of confidence or a recall system nation wide. That way, If Rand Paul runs on a bunch of mealy mouthed promises and then takes his seat and does nothing, we can throw his ass out on his ear.

I agree with #5, so long as we stopped funding faith based initiatives. There are 450,000 churches in this nation, none of which pays a dime to the tax structure. They supposedly are there for helping save souls and caring for the poor and fatherless and widows. Charge each one $1,000 a month. That's $450 million a month, 5.4 billion a year, that could go to help the poor. Stop the subsidies that go to ethanol producers, the 20 billion that goes to oil companies each year and generally stop all subsidies to US companies (Corporate welfare).

I agree 100% with item 6.

On item 7, I agree but congress needs to rework every trade agreement with every trade partner and insure that the American worker is protected in those agreements. If a foreign nation can not deal with the fact that we must consider our workers first and foremost before any trade agreement, let them sell their products to those big consumer nations abroad.

Cal20, the Tea Party has deep ambitions but limited foresight and not much in the way of common sense.

Cut Corporate Welfare, bring back tariffs and tax Wall Street Trading.

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/56789-afl-cio-dems-push-new-wall-street-tax

With a flat tax or the fair tax you would not have to worry about the corporate welfare or loopholes...everyone would pay based on what they made or spend.

I also agree with cutting the entitlement programs drastically...but by putting a time limit on them just like unemployment...you get them for 6 months and then they are gone. I also don't think that money should be free...you should have to work for the city/state at least 20 hours a week on jobs like mowing lawns, cleaning trash along road ways and many other low skilled job task. This would save the city from having to someone to do it and help save tax $$ there...a fair trade off and with only 20 hours a week would still give plenty of time to look for work.

benram, excellant idea but will never happen. You do know that 47% of the people don't pay taxes, and 47% of the people think the tax system is fair. I wonder which group they come from.

Higher taxes are not persecution; a progressive tax rate has always been the way this country has run its tax policy and obviously it has worked well. It broke down during the Bush admin because taxes were cut, thereby reducing revenue and creating the deficit that is now the issue. Most of the high income earners are executives, private equity and hedge fund managers and the like. How do you think raising their individual tax rate affects job creation?? Not at all. Whether the movers and shakers hire or not is simply based on the needs of the companies they run, not on their individual tax situation. In terms of other stimulus, if someone is an EVP making say 1M a year with a 50M net worth, do you believe for one second that his or her spending habits will change if he/she has to pay 4.6% more in taxes?? Obviously not, they have and buy what they want and that won't change. Trickle down is nonsense and has been proven as such and there is no job creation, as noted above. For small business owners, typically their income is sheltered by substantial deductions. All that said, I agree the highest income bracket should be raised to say 500K married filing joint. Before you react, think about the above.

frankd-

Flat tax... That way all who pay in get a return.. NOt in anyway should the RICH pay to support the poor when the poor will not get off their ass and go to work.

I haven't read the book yet but I believe Atlas Shrugged covers this very scenario. Targeting the successful for simply "having" is no solution but this nation has become so induced into a welfare state by politicians buying votes that "having" is now perceived by the lazy/ignorant/selfish as a "right". Until the leeches remove themselves or are removed the host will never heal.

Flat tax is the way to go. No deductions, no nothing.

You get taxed at something like 8% for lower income, 15% for middle, or 24% for rich and that's it. No more deductions, no more fraud, no more working your way into a lower bracket.

Deductions are DISCRIMINATION basically. Single. Sorry..no break for you. No kids. Sorry again. Didn't buy a house because you were responsible. Sorry no deduction for you.

Time to put everyone on equal footing.

Also, there should be a VAT tax on items...

Frankd - " The "mega-wealthy" are the movers & shakers that can actually spur on an economic recovery...yet...the majority of people want to financially crucify them..for being...wealthy."

Yes, they CAN - but have chosen not to. Thats in fact, the exact problem isnt it? They got theirs...now you get yours. But good luck, cuz they already took most of what there was to get.

Richard "NOt in anyway should the RICH pay to support the poor when the poor will not get off their ass and go to work."

So many hardworking people who I know who've lost their jobs through no fault of their own, are struggling to find any sort of quality work. And you think the poor and lazy are just pissing away job opportunities because they prefer welfare?

When 1% of the population has 90% of that country's wealth...who exactly has the ability to keep this thing afloat, if not that 1% of mega wealthy people?

Cuz it certainly isnt the rest of us...we are collectively PISS POOR.

Game over...they've milked us for all we have, they've chained us up in personal debt...and now they've got folks like you doing their bidding for them. But, the joke will be on you...because we'll both be sitting in the same debtors jail in the end.

Accountants are simply llawyers stupid cousins, and the country is run by llawyers, and accountants are the middlemen between taxpayers and the IRS.

Do you really think the llawyers that run DC will let their helpless cousins starve?

James, let me add one more to your list. That is, EVERYONE must pay some income tax, let's say a minimum tax of $100. If you are on welfare, or any other program where you pay nothing now, or even get some of my money 'refunded' to you, which would stop, BTW, at least a minimum hundred bucks.

We all enjoy the benefits of living in the U.S. We all have a skin in this game, rich or poor, and nobody should get out of paying something. If you don't have a stake in this country you aren't really a citizen at all. You're nothing more than a tapeworm.

Agreed...everyone should pay income taxes...totally agree.

Also, this always cracks me up. Why not put those welfare people to work for their money...trash cleanup, road work, etc according to their skill sets. Seems kind of silly to give out money for free without getting something in return.

James,

I completely agree with putting anyone on government subsidy to work at least part of the time (not 100% because they need time to find a real job). Not only would this encourage people to get off government assistance, it would also help build their self esteem by giving them something meaningful to do for their money.

Actually James part of the problem with the idea of putting them to work is that you would have to structure a work program for them. That usually ends up costing more then just giving the welfare. Inefficient and cheap vs better in the long run but more expensive now. As a society, we've consistently chosen the cheaper alternative for the short run and it comes back to bite us later.

Richard-1923090

frankd-

Flat tax... That way all who pay in get a return.. NOt in anyway should the RICH pay to support the poor when the poor will not get off their ass and go to work.

You do realize the poor work right? You can hold down a full time job and still qualify for food stamps right?

Congrats - dumbest thing I have read all day.

the top 1% have half the country's wealth, yet they sit on it with all the current tax breaks. trickle down reaganomics does not work when things are bleek. it doesn't have to be permanent, but spending needs to be cut and temporarily additional taxing of the top 1-5% of this country needs to take place. while that is happening, maybe it will encourage the wealthy to get things fixed so they can get their tax cuts back. you are supposed to recieve a reward after something good is done, not before.

Please explain how a family of 5 below poverty level, making 22K a year gets a tax refund of nearly 10K? If taxes were fair and equitable they would have gotten back 10% of 22K not 5 times that amount.

My plan to fix the deficit.

Cut defense back to 300 billion a year allowance. We don't need to outspend every nation in defense times 10-20.

Place a tariff on all foreign made goods, which is designed to balance the trade deficits. If trade deficit is X, all companies when group will pay X in tariffs.

Repeal the Bush tax cuts on the wealthy.

With these 3 items I can save the nation over a trillion dollars in deficit spending.

Anyone who pushes for more Free Trade is a traitor to this nation.

If we have Free Trade, either the dollar will collapse and/or the US economy will collapse do to economic principles.

If I were to be "targeted" for a higher taxing...I'd be pi$$ed off to no end

If you're trying to say that you have no obligation to pay taxes to support the society that made your wealth possible, I say leave and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Saying that the wealthy should get a free tax ride on the backs of everyone else is selfish, irresponsible, and leech-like.

Let the flat taxes pay a flat 15.6% for FICA.

Then we'll talk about income tax.

The lie that 50% of American households pay no federal taxes is just that, a lie.

Actually James part of the problem with the idea of putting them to work is that you would have to structure a work program for them. That usually ends up costing more then just giving the welfare. Inefficient and cheap vs better in the long run but more expensive now. As a society, we've consistently chosen the cheaper alternative for the short run and it comes back to bite us later.

Maybe that's because the work programs are structured by federal and state employees. We all know that allowing federal/state employees to do most things ends up costing us more...especially when it comes to actually producing programs.

Farm out the programs to private companies and require them to hire unemployed workers.

Notice the first choice is just to "cut spending" but their are no choices at all to just "raise taxes on the wealthy and corporations" enough to slash the deficit (if that's even a good idea at this point) which they could easily do?

That's how the corporate media controls the out come of the poll.

By Steven C. Johnson

NEW YORK | Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:20pm EDT

(Reuters) - Standard & Poor's threatened Monday to downgrade the United States' prized AAA credit rating unless the Obama administration and Congress find a way to slash the yawning federal budget deficit within two years.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/18/us-ratings-usa-sp-idUSTRE73H2JT20110418?feedType=RSS&ca=samsung

So now those white collar criminals at the bond rating agencies like S & P who helped cause the economic collapse by slapping Triple A ratings on junk bonds made from shaky mortgages are dictating to the U.S. government that they have to cut vital programs like Social Security, Medicare etc.

These @!$%#s should be in jail not telling anyone else to do.

And apparently this is a situation that has been going on for a while. I wish old Tommy J. was still around and in the White House:

"I hope we shall... crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." --Thomas Jefferson to George Logan, 1816. FE 10:69

"The selfish spirit of commerce... knows no country, and feels no passion or principle but that of gain." --Thomas Jefferson to Larkin Smith, 1809. ME 12:272

Senate report on Wall Street crash: The criminalization of the American ruling class

By Barry Grey

18 April 2011

The US Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations released a voluminous report last Wednesday on the Wall Street crash of 2008 that documents the fraud and criminality that pervade the entire financial system and its relations with the government.

The 650-page report is the outcome of a two-year investigation that involved over 150 interviews and depositions as well as the examination of subpoenaed emails and internal documents of major banks, government regulatory agencies and credit rating firms. The report, entitled "Wall Street and the Financial Crisis: Anatomy of a Financial Collapse," establishes that the financial crash and ensuing recession were the result of systemic fraud and deception on the part of the mortgage lenders and banks, carried out with the collusion of the credit rating corporations and the complicity of the government and its bank regulatory agencies....

..."Using their own words in documents subpoenaed by the subcommittee, the report discloses how financial firms deliberately took advantage of their clients and investors, how credit rating agencies [like S & P] assigned AAA ratings to high-risk securities,...

....The report cites emails by Deutsche Bank's top global CDO trader, Gregg Lippman, calling risky mortgage securities marketed by the bank "crap" and "pigs" and the bank's operations a "CDO machine," which he characterized as a "Ponzi scheme."

The document points to the central role of the big Wall Street banks in promulgating the fraud, stating: "Investment banks were the driving force behind the structured finance products that provided a steady stream of funding for lenders originating high-risk, poor-quality loans and that magnified risk throughout the US financial system. The investment banks that engineered, sold, traded and profited from mortgage-related structured finance products were a major cause of the financial crisis."...

...Not a single senior executive at a major US bank, hedge fund, mortgage firm or insurance company has gone to jail. Not one has even been prosecuted.

There is every indication that none will be criminally indicted in the future. As with the similarly damning report released in January by the US Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission, the Senate report has been largely buried by the mass media. It was reported perfunctorily on the inside pages of some of the major newspapers and barely mentioned by the broadcast and cable networks, and then dropped....

....One reason for the absence of prosecutions is the power of the individuals involved, all of whom wield immense influence over politicians, the media and the legal system. But it goes deeper than the status of individuals, just as the sordid state of affairs as a whole arises not from individual greed, but rather from a profound crisis of the entire system.

The criminalization of the American ruling class is the outcome of more than three decades in which the accumulation of wealth by the corporate-financial elite has become increasingly separated from real production. In its pursuit of profit, the ruling class has dismantled huge sections of industry and turned ever more decisively to financial manipulation and speculation.

The ascendancy of the most parasitic sections of the capitalist class has been accompanied by a sharp decline in the living standards of the working class. The richest and most powerful layers have acquired staggering levels of wealth by plundering society....

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/apr2011/pers-a18.shtml

commonsense....The lie that 50% of American households pay no federal taxes is just that, a lie.

Federal Income Taxes Common, and it's just under 50%.

Well now, Doo ~ the vast majority of American voters thank you for your appreciation of their selection. Unless you can find a fresh fish for the political pond, they will probably deserve your thanks again in 2012.

Yeah, the sheeple elected a president soley on his partisan, class warfare rhetoric. Usually, to be elected for a second term, you have to run on a record of success. But the stupid sheeple will probably elect him again on his rhetoric only. If that happens, it is a clear sign that this country is doomed. Costa Rico is looking better each day.

The last thing we need is a businessperson for President. Business looks to the short term, but government needs to make long term decisions. A government is not a business and it runs under different requirements.

Usually, to be elected for a second term you have to run on a record of success but the stupid sheeple will probably elect him again on his rhetoric only.

Agree.

Why else do you think Obama is going to spend $1 billion dollars on his re-election campaign? Because the job he's done so far, isn't worthy of a second term.

Where are all the liberals who complain, scream and cry about Republicans spending millions to get elected, but now that it's their Messiah, they're silent?

Barack Obama's Hope & Change

Hope you believe the bullsh!t coming out of my mouth.

Change my mind, when poll numbers aren't in my favor.

Hope you didn't expect me to be a leader, because they don't teach leadership or economics in "community organizer" school.

Change my call for people to "tone down the rhetoric", when I need to attack Republicans over a political issue.

Hope the economy improves on its own, because I have no idea what I'm doing.

Change in my employment status come 2013.

His rhetoric alone is enough to influence investments in our economy thus increasing unemployment. I argued this point with my friends prior to his win. They agreed that I was right last year, but still insist that they will vote for him again. Anyone that doesn't understand that saying 'I will increase taxes on corporations and the rich' causes corporations and the rich to invest elsewhere doesn't have the first part of my post name.

A government is not a business and it runs under different requirements.

Yeah, kinda like when a business is going under, they can't forcibly take more money from the general public to keep it afloat.

Businesses can't borrow billions from foreign countries, using the countries credit rating or buy back it's own debt by printing currency.

Businesses also require a CEO with a brain, economic experience and leadership to make tough decisions.

And in business, if you take money from people for a specific intended purpose, then use it to pay for other things, it's called a Ponzi scheme (cough...social security)

Gee a financial cris. Who would have guessed.

Now the conservative say it's Obama fault. I say it the conservatives faults all of it. They turned this country over to foreign corporate criminals on wall street 50 years ago when they cut the rich's taxes. How's that trickle down your neck working out for ya? Bet ya

All the time conservatives are screaming about welfare cost. You conservatives have been had, suckered, robbed, swindled and most important your children's future was raped by conservative principals.nice..lol

Conservative American=sucker

Business looks to the short term, but government needs to make long term decisions. A government is not a business and it runs under different requirements.

What are you talking about, the whole reason we are where we are is that government cant see past the next election, the house holds the purse strings and their term is just 2 years.

A business has to look far down the road and plan for it. Introducing an airliner is the culmination of a decade of work towards one goal, a new drug could take 10 years of constant effort or more, even a TV producer has to plan for at least 5 years or their product will be unmarketable.

Wow.

Landoran "Yeah, kinda like when a business is going under, they can't forcibly take more money from the general public to keep it afloat."

what do you think BANKRUPTCY is?

"Businesses can't borrow billions from foreign countries, using the countries credit rating or buy back it's own debt by printing currency."

no, instead they sell "shares" to shareholders, and once they start doing that - all sound business practices go out the window, and the only thing that matters is appeasing the shareholders. and they've got tricks to tank their own shares so that they dont owe those folks much, only to magically "rebound" after that happens and their main investors (the ones who own the company) are the ones to profit after every jumped ship and took massive losses. selling shares, is in effect a way of printing ones own currency.

"Businesses also require a CEO with a brain, economic experience and leadership to make tough decisions."

So then how come so many of them have chosen to fire american workers, ship jobs overseas, and completely destroy america in the process...?

oh thats right, see answer #2 about SHAREHOLDERS. Dont forget the massive CEO wages and parachutes, cant afford american workers with all these studs walking around that need big ass paychecks.

"And in business, if you take money from people for a specific intended purpose, then use it to pay for other things, it's called a Ponzi scheme (cough...social security)"

In Business - what ways would you "take money from people" for a specific purpose and use it in other ways? Stocks?...

Definition of why stocks exist: the primary reason that stocks exist is to gather investment capital for firms, so that firms can continue to function and/or expand.

Yet, what we see with publically traded companies is that they dont intend to "expand" with that money, they intend to reap massive - individual gains - for the investors. Most often, the focus of a publically traded company (of which I work for one) is not "how well is our business doing?" but "how can we give our investors the perception that we are even better than last quarter?"...when the investors dont get as big of gains/earnings as they were promised...all hell breaks lose, even if the company is GROWING and PROSPERING as a whole.

I see this every single quarter as my corporate office massively pushes us to make the bottom line look better than it actually is...and every year the company I work for buys small little companies that are doing well, so that our company "appears" to be growing and making even more money. Then, we take those little companies...strip them down (ie, fire lots of workers) and make them run more efficient, so that the shareholders prosper.

If our govt operated like a business...we'd have less than 1/2 of the popluation employed when all is said and done...and the other half, what would we be doing? BEGGING the haves for scraps, or massive amounts of work for tiny amounts of money.

SEE ALL 3rd WORLD NATIONS. they have businesses too ya know.

Gee a financial cris. Who would have guessed.

Now the conservative say it's Obama fault. I say it the conservatives faults all of it. They turned this country over to foreign corporate criminals on wall street 50 years ago when they cut the rich's taxes. How's that trickle down your neck working out for ya? Bet ya

All the time conservatives are screaming about welfare cost. You conservatives have been had, suckered, robbed, swindled and most important your children's future was raped by conservative principals.nice..lol

Conservative American=sucker

Ignoring the misspellings, that entire post was nearly unintelligible. You couldn't have made a more compelling argument for people becoming conservative.

Landoran "Yeah, kinda like when a business is going under, they can't forcibly take more money from the general public to keep it afloat."

what do you think BANKRUPTCY is?

Bankruptcy or insolvency is a legal status of a person or an organization that cannot repay the debts it owes to its creditors.

How is declaring bankruptcy forcibly taking money from the general public? Ie...like taxes, you're not keeping your business a float if you declare bankruptcy?

One, the company is not taking money FROM anyone to stay in business, it means they're defaulting on their debts to creditors, people they either borrowed money from or products they bought for their business. Nothing was "taken" by force.

no, instead they sell "shares" to shareholders, and once they start doing that - all sound business practices go out the window, and the only thing that matters is appeasing the shareholders. and they've got tricks to tank their own shares so that they dont owe those folks much, only to magically "rebound" after that happens and their main investors (the ones who own the company) are the ones to profit after every jumped ship and took massive losses. selling shares, is in effect a way of printing ones own currency.

In one sentence you say they only care about appeasing their share holders, then you say company owners intentionally screw over their investors to restructure the company and keep all the profits for themselves. Which is it? You can't say all they care about is the stockholders, then say owners tank the company on purpose, so only the owners make money?

How could they rebound if their shares are worthless? Why would a company intentionally tank their own stock? So their share holders lose money? So the owners can start from scatch, have to build their company back up? You really think the majority of business owners operate like that? Then what? Tank the company again?

So then how come so many of them have chosen to fire american workers, ship jobs overseas, and completely destroy america in the process...?

oh thats right, see answer #2 about SHAREHOLDERS. Dont forget the massive CEO wages and parachutes, cant afford american workers with all these studs walking around that need big ass paychecks.

They shipped overseas so they could make products they could sell cheaper and compete with countries like China, who's communist government pays workers $3 dollars a day. American unions, Washington, a progressive tax structure and the U.S. corporate tax rate is what's driving away corporations and jobs.

Yes, because companies are in business TO MAKE A PROFIT!!! You know that icky word you libs hate. They don't run on unicorn tears and pixie dust.

In Business - what ways would you "take money from people" for a specific purpose and use it in other ways? Stocks?...

Definition of why stocks exist: the primary reason that stocks exist is to gather investment capital for firms, so that firms can continue to function and/or expand.

Not really sure what your point is here? I'm assuming you're in such a "emotional rant" that your brain stopped working the moment you started typing. If the CEO took that stock money and bought himself a fleet of Ferrari's and houses with it, then it's a ponzi scheme. You're agreeing with me, while trying to NOT agree with me.

If tomorrow you won the lottery for $10 million dollars, how much of it would you share with the rest of society? Who you donate it all? Spread the wealth around like Obama says is good? Or would you keep every last penny, do whatever you had to, to keep it all for yourself?

I'm betting you keep every last cent, because you've never been rich, so once you get the chance, all of a sudden the people you hate, you become. Now that you're the very rich person you hate, you all of a sudden have no problem with YOUR wealth. You can find "reasons" why it's not bad that you're now rich.

See to poor and middle class liberals & Democrats only "rich" people can be greedy.

For some reason the definition of "greed" gets changed when liberals & Democrats want the rich to pay more in taxes, so the poor & middle class can keep their money or so more entitlement programs can be funded. To liberals and Democrats, that's not greed.

Greed is greed. Wanting more of something or wanting to keep more of something, at the expense of someone else IS GREED!!

You have no idea what you're talking about. This is an emotional response, rather than one based on rational thought and logic.

I can break down your argument for you, so next time you can save yourself alot of time.

Here it is:

I'm not rich, so I hate the rich. My employer makes more than me and that's not fair. My life is misrable, but it's not my fault, it's someone else's, so I'll blame society and corporations. Boo-hoo, life's not fair.

There you go.

Jessica, stay away from a business degree, you dont have a clue. Find another calling for your own sake.

Bankruptcy or insolvency is a legal status of a person or an organization that cannot repay the debts it owes to its creditors.

This is not always true, some types of BK allow the company to simply change the terms of repayment, or negotiate for partial payment. Sometimes it just determines who gets paid in full and in what order until the money runs out.

Its not always about ducking out of debt, unless the business goes under. If the business stays in operation, some money always goes to the creditors or they would never get credit again.

Other than that, excellent post!

Nice try Tactical - Obama is the one who wants complete and total unfettered control... Why do his ideas for financial "Reform" not start until 2012??? Hmmmmm?

I think you forget Obama is one of those people. His administration is filled with bankers and lobbyists. He's great pals with the GE CEO. Oh and let's not forget that towards the end of the Obamacare battle - not a peep from the insurance companies - hmm wonder why that is...

Oh yeah, and don't forget the Boy Wonder, tax cheat Timothy Geithner.

Where is he now??

Oh, right - he got broomed. I guess he needed to go back to playing with his Lincoln Logs.........

I really don't get hatred for the wealthy...is there some rich conspiracy afoot that I am not privy to??? My CEO/company founder/major share holder is rich...I work hard to help him get even richer and he pays me pretty well for my effort (side note - he has never tried to rape me). I thought this is how things worked but I guess I'm wrong because Tactical says I'm blind and stupid.

no ---- you're not blind and stupid ---- tactical is a shill for the liberal agenda.

Common Sense, the Democrats have promised to take care of our citizens on the backs of the wealthy for decades. In the process, they have created entire generations without the ability to fend for themselves. Why do the hard things when you have a government that encourages you to be dependent on others?

Geez...y'know guys...you're right.

ALL this time I thought those silly "libtards" had it right, but you know, after reading your informed, rational responses I now realize the past few decades have all just been a ruse to shield me from the truth that all poor people are just lazy, shiftless mooches that have no ambition to go out and get a job.

HECK!!! Why are we paying for SS and Medicare anyways?? I mean, you guys didn't sign up for this "libtard" "bleeding heart" "socialistic" nonsense anyways, right??

I know!! Let's do away with any and all welfare altogether....gut SS and Medicare to the point that those lazy, shiftless seniors will have to get off their wrinkly asses and get a job (for once!), and let's get this country back on the road to PROSPERITY!!!!! YEAH!! Who's with me????

Meanwhile, we can continue to raise the defense budget ('cause there's always some damned crazy "mooslim" that wants to "take away our freedoms" (and our young, white virgins too, but that's another issue)), allocate more money into the coffers of Big Business (since they're creating ALL the jobs, and those silly "libtards" just don't understand "trickle-down economics" anyways), and finally, let's completely destroy the unions, especially the public ones, since they're only full of lazy, shiftless teachers, police officers, firefighters, and EMTs who don't nearly deserve decent wages, much less benefits!!!

Wouldn't life be grand???? I mean, we could tell our public workers to "go to hell", and tell our grandparents to "go to hell", and we could CERTAINLY tell those welfare mothers to "go to hell" since we don't like their screaming kids taking up valuable space at Wal-mart shopping lines. Oh wait!!! Save some of those kids because we're gonna need them to fill boots when the next big war of attrition pops up!! (Hey, SOMEONE's gotta have to die so that our corporations can make money and "trickle" those jobs to the rest of us, right?)

Yeah, let's destroy any and all social programs we have and get our nation "back on track" to 80 hour work-weeks and child slave labor. That'll teach those damned "libtards" a thing or two, wouldn't it?? And yeah, when those "libtards" come a-knockin' for some spare change, or food, or a roof for a night, we can tell 'em to go "get a job" and leave the rest of us hard-workin, redne- er...conservative....people alone!!!!!!

WHO'S WITH ME?????????

Indy Patriot, it's in the news again that half of American households do not pay any federal income taxes. If Obama plays his cards right, he can move that figure to 70% and he'll have a sure majority of votes in 2012. Do you think there are more rednecks that pay taxes than don't pay taxes or is it the other way around? You seem to know so much about this.

What is wrong with you folks. This crime began 50 years ago with the b movie actor (key word actor). Along with Donald Reagan cutting regulations and tax cuts for the rich.

Conservative trickle down theory . How's that conservative bag of #%# working out for ya?

The problem is you dum A$$will vote for another conservative nut case. Too bad for you..lol

Indy - only a small fringe argues for doing away with the safety net completely. But, there are a lot of people like me that call for significant changes and actively pushing people to get themselves off government assistance. There is a big difference between the 2 positions.

Yes, Lanikai Ron, I know that.

I also know that SOME of those 50% who don't pay taxes also do not make any money....and SOME of those 50% are the uber-wealthy who have found nifty ways to AVOID paying taxes.........

.......so what's your point?

My post was an attempt at sarcasm in order to emphasize the ignorance that abounds within the conservative movement.

My post, for your information, stated nothing about the 50% who do not pay taxes (not exactly new information). And I understand, from your pointless "retort", that you believe Obama to be the biggest evil since Genghis Khan, therefore you firmly believe that Obama will keep shilling out for the poor at the expense of YOUR tax dollars. How nice. How very shortsided.

People like you would sell out their own mothers for the sake of Republicanism. Yeah, well, how many of your "hard-working, REAL American-type" family members are collecting SS, food stamps, housing assistance, Medicare/Medicaid, etc.???? Would you throw them under the bus for your politics?

You people think that our economic troubles are the sole fault of "libtards" who are actually the ones willing to support the poor and needy, all the while you say NOTHING about the bloated defense budget, corporate welfare (but you don't paying THAT!), and pork waste that is rampant on both sides of the aisle.

So go ahead, Lanikai Ron, please respond with another idiotic, pointless post that has nothing to do with the substance of what I write.....go ahead.....we have ALL DAY to listen to your version of politics........

Ron-1861300, my post was meant to be full of satire and sarcasm for the benefit of making a point.

I understand that very few true conservatives wish to remove our social nets altogether, but the fact is that welfare reform can be done intelligently, without the added trouble of idiotic politics (abortion fights during a budget crisis?) and partisan bickering.

When we have conservatives making true efforts to cull our vast military budgets, as well as be willing to raise taxes on the wealthy (or provide a new system of fair taxation altogether), then I can entertain the idea of reducing our SS and Medicare benefits.

It's the fairness of compromise that's lacking here, my friends.

Ron - once you push those people off of govt assistance, where do they go...what do they do? Are there going to be jobs for them?

If there are going to be jobs THEN...why arent there jobs NOW?

Lankai Ron - so which is it, you want people paying less taxes...or more? Everyone, or just select people? Should 1 % of the population that has 90% of the wealth pay 90% of the taxes...or 30%? 50% 70%? Should 99% of this nations population that has a collective 10% of this nations wealth pay 10% of the nations taxes, or 30%, 50%, 70%, all of it?

When my partner losses her job in the next few months, how much should her tax obligation be? Im sure she should be chipping in just as much as the richie-richs...right?

Jessica - I don't want anyone to be homeless or hungry, so I'm not supporting policies that would cause either of those. For jobs, the main thing government can do is foster a strong economic environment. After that, it's a matter of encouraging people to become productive. To not be hungry or homeless there is a minimum level of resources someone needs - that should be the floor. If someone is at that minimum level and they find a low paying job, I'd let them keep the job money + part of the subsidy for a time so they can get a solid foundation, then slowly wean them off the subsidies. Obviously this is a complicated issue, but that's a starting point.

Indy,

Sorry...missed the sarcasm initially :)

Until government can show me some real spending cuts, I'm against any tax increases. The reason we are in this hole is the politicians keep upping the spending every time they get more money. I have zero confidence that any tax increases we do now will actually help.

As to defense spending...I'm fine with drastic cuts as long as they go along with foreign policy changes. I don't want to cut spending and then have our troops sent into a 4th war. (well...that's not entirely true...I'd go ahead and close most of our overseas bases and save money that way, regardless of the foreign policy issues)

Now, once the federal government shows me some real cuts, then I'll be in favor of going back to the 90's tax rates.

Indy,

I don't think that many if any even amongst the Tea Party are for a true survival of the fittest society. We undoubtedly pay taxes to support those that can not support themselves and we do so without complaint. The real problem that we have is able bodied people collecting on benefits and remaining content to do so. Your extreme hyperbole, satire, and sarcasm really doesn't add anything to the argument and demonize those that probably want the same things as you, but simply to a sustainable and reasonable degree.

No, I think the real problem are those who don't pay taxes. Check out this link for 10 of the worst offenders.

Pay Your Taxes? These 10 Companies Didn't.

front.moveon.org

Ron - I think I misunderstand what you meant by pushing them to get off of welfare...as in, eliminating the program would be just the push they need.

I am a bleeding heart liberal, so my thoughts are - help people help themselves. But what I see with the welfare system is the complete opposite...its helping people to destroy themselves, and their children and their children's children.

Thats not to say that we dont have the exact same thing happening with the ultra rich/corporations whom we've been giving corporate welfare too.

When you set up the system so that much is given, but nothing is expected...thats exactly what you get, nothing.

Im all for reforming the welfare system, so long as we reform the coporate/wealthy welfare system.

Everyone needs to chip in...and the less those at the tippy top take for themselves, the more there is left for everyone else at the bottom to be "encouraged to be productive" with.

The first part of fixing welfare is forcing folks on welfare to understand its not a way of life, its a stepping stone for those who need help. The second part is getting the 2nd, 3rd generation welfare people to understand and learn about a whole other way of living - being productive and being rewarded for that. The third part is having more than govt assistance available to people whom we now expect to "be more produtive"...and that means private sector jobs with real paychecks. Of course, how successful and productive will people who only know the life of welfare be in private sector jobs? Not likely very successful...which is why I would advocate a new form of welfare.

Instead of receiving food stamps and housing assistance, they'd receive govt jobs and the work would = the paycheck. The harder job you do, the more you make...the easier the job you do, the less you make. And i'd make these jobs comparable to private sector jobs so that when these folks transition to real jobs, it wont be another shock to them.

This sort of ties in with my thoughts on Unemployment Insurance: Why do we pay people to refuse to accept jobs, that pay less? That may not have been the intent of unemployment insurance, but given our crappy economy...thats the reality. Most people who've lost their jobs, simply cant find a job that pays as much as UNEMPLOYMENT (never mind what they were previously paying) and so for many people, it's not financially possible to take a job that pays less...that may let you go in 6 months anyway.

Which, only screws you in the end because after 1 year on unemployment, you're viewed no differently than a welfare queen or king.

Why dont we have an unemployment system that requires that you find ANY sort of private sector job within 6 months, and if you were making $15/hr when you were laid off...and find a job that pays $9/hr...unemployment will pay the difference, $6/hr (up to a certain point, obviously). If you've found a job before 6 months, then you will be able to receive unemployment assitance for as long as people can currently get it (99 weeks with federal extensions).

After 1 year, the benefits would be reduced slightly...which is the means to encourage people to not get comfy in a $8/hr taco bell job...and will push them to keep looking for better jobs.

Anywho...just some thoughts, after revising cuz I realized the first post was waaaaaaaaay too long.

Every plan submitted here is unworkable, economic bull @!$%# and would undermine the very underpinnings of this country. We have collectively moved from a productive society to a service one.

We elected a person trained in collectivism as a social form of government and expected: What? Answer; a balanced budget?, a return to the “American Way?, the good old days?, the voters were dragging on the bong that Tuesday.

We cannot continue to force our wealthy producers off shore with the highest cooperation taxes on earth nor can we balance the cruelty of our system to support have not, work not’s. But we must not leave the sick and the disabled alongside the road nor can we can the military. The first would destroy our very being, the very who of who we are and the second would destroy the nation.

We must identify where nonproductive taxes are spent and judge just who benefits from it, For example: We spend more tax money on the arts than some countries spend on their roads. We misdirected funds from fixing our roads to building hiking paths and bicycle trails. Thousands of Americans are killed or injured each year driving on damaged roadways, fuel is wasted and repairs are costly and private enterprise and productivity goes in the toilet. The wealthy are allowed to purchase ranches and farms with no thought of making a profit beyond a tax write off. This kind of list covers page after page and represents billions of dollars.

The struggle is ours, not some other!

I will have to live another 22 years to use up my SS paid account and if at all possible I will make to 97. That’s not a ponzi scam its my money.

Common "We undoubtedly pay taxes to support those that can not support themselves and we do so without complaint."

*face palm

mostly at the "without complaint" part of that statement.

I was going to hope for you that cancer, or alzheimers, or multiple sclerosis doesnt financially devastate you or your family...but then realized, you dont need my help...you've got all taken care of on your own, right?

Jimmie "We cannot continue to force our wealthy producers off shore with the highest cooperation taxes on earth nor can we balance the cruelty of our system to support have not, work not’s."

I call this karma jimmie, america was born of white europeans who fled europe to the "new world" in order to exploit cheap/free labor for massive profits. How many do you think came to america to avoid taxation in the first place?

So, who gets to unleash all those nukes in a blaze of fury when this ship starts sinking?

Jessica, since you asked, I'll answer your questions. I would like to see taxes paid for every penny of income earned by every citizen and corporation in this country. Same percentage for everyone. I care not whether the income was from a well run business or a poorly run welfare program. Income is income. No limits to what part of your income is taxed. I'd like to see all loopholes in our tax laws eliminated. Politicians from both parties pander to special interests. I hope this leaves no questions in your mind as to how I feel about who should pay taxes and how much they should pay. If you want to reap the benefits of living in this country, you should have to contribute to it.

Trump = Palin without the upskirt.

Rorschach

If you vote for Obama you vote for MORE of the same... God help us if to many vote your way!!!!!!!!!!!

I NEVER thought I would ever vote for a cat like Donald Trump, but you know -

He may just have the BALLS to do what needs to be done!!!

I really hope neither Obama or Trump win...you guys are depressing me...

If Donald Trump is the best the right has to offer...we are DOOMED.

I mean, we already were...but it's official.

So, when The Donald's solution for America is the same solution he's used for his businesses when they fail, er, i mean struggle...which is BANKRUPTCY...

So what would it look like when China comes to repo us? your basic invasion/occupasion right? I mean, basically the reverse of Iraq?

it'll take some getting used to but...I could learn to speak chinese I guess.

You forgot the fifth option: default.

I wouldn't go there just yet. Let the economy show more signs of strengthening before taxes are raised. Just return to pre-Bush taxes and try to weather this before a raise in taxes becomes necessary.

....what about the equation:

Cut Spending + Leave Taxes At Current Levels + Add Minor 10 Yr Tax Breaks For Small Business Start-Up = More Small Businesses with Added Employees (a.k.a: added taxable income base)

Agree with Opus. The Reagan administration saw more revenue than any other administration through low taxes, smaller governement and less spending. That's what works. Lower taxes means people buy more goods = companys generate more revenue = more growth = more government revenue = win win for everyone. The Dems want big governemet and higher taxes to support it which kills growth.

Opus, if you're cutting spending includes about $100 billion off the annual defense budget and what Obama calls "tax expenditures" aka loopholes, we may be able to get there provided the GOP dosen't destroy the fragile recovery. I agree on your tax breaks for small business startups, but would include tax incentives for business of all sizes to invest in the US and create jobs.

Great- let's start by making the 47% of Americans who don't pay FIT pay them. Canada as well as other countries start taxing the first dollar, it's time the US does the same.

http://money.cnn.com/2010/09/08/news/economy/reagan_years_taxes/index.htm

http://www.forbes.com/2009/02/26/obama-budget-reagan-clinton-bush-opinions-columnists_higher_taxes.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reagan_Administration

http://firedoglake.com/2009/02/01/newsflash-ronald-reagan-raised-taxes-you-idiots/

And the fantasy of the Reagan years lives on.

FastZ,

Are you personally willing to give up all of the standard deductions that I'm sure you and yours use when filing your taxes? Because that's how that 47% figure is created.

Lol. The curse is cast..... Your all broke and will never be able to pay off your debt.

Yet you think voting in some one will deliver you from this terrible situation. You have voted in the worst of the worst for the last 50years promising better living and more stuff.

how has that worked ??

If you are waiting on superman. Hey, he is in the comic books.

Along with the childish idea that some one who really give a #%€£ about you can solve this.lol

Opus, if you're cutting spending includes about $100 billion off the annual defense budget and what Obama calls "tax expenditures" aka loopholes, we may be able to get there provided the GOP dosen't destroy the fragile recovery. I agree on your tax breaks for small business startups, but would include tax incentives for business of all sizes to invest in the US and create jobs.....Joe Mota

......I never really thought about what a tax break to a small business could mean...until I started my own business (or...should I say...was forced to start my own business due to being laid off two years ago). As someone that's self-employed...it'd be a HUGE deal.

I'm willing to give up my exemptions and go back to 90's tax rates AFTER government enacts some real cuts (100's of billions/year). Until government can show they can be fiscally responsible with my money, i don't want to give them another penny.

Why not at the same time? To do only one, cutting, would have a devastating effect on the admittedly weak recovery we are experiencing now.

"Mr. Zandi warned this year that a Republican plan for about $60 billion in cuts would do significant damage to the economy." And Zandi is on the right when it comes to politics.

"Dr. Zandi received his PhD at the University of Pennsylvania, where he did his research with Gerard Adams and Nobel laureate Lawrence Klein, and received his B.S. from the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania."

And you suggest $100's of billions.

It's funny to me that much of Europe has taken this approach, but the US is going the way of Europe in the 70's.

We've been down this road before: The taxes will be raised with a promise to cut spending. What don't you understand about the word NEVER? The government will never cut spending. (Okay, maybe once after WWII.)

Are the 58 percentialers naive or just stupid?

Your right Jim I'm sure Obama would use that additional revenues from tax increases to pay down the deficit and not use it to maintain entitlement spending. I mean look how fiscally conservative he has been so far!! (sarcasm) bwahahahahaha!!!

Talk about intellectually challenged and galactically stupid..

Jim, I would think before I call others galacticly stupid, commander. If you are comfortable that your federal government can responsibly spend a tax increase, I would like to sell you some land near Chernobyl. We can amend the tax rate when someone in DC learns some fiscal responsibility. Show me some actual cuts that reduce the annual budget and the deficit, and we'll talk.

Why should we ever have to raise taxes? Most people just buy into the ponzi scheme. Taxes should never have to be raised!!! Its all a manipulated scam!!

More fortune telling from the right.

What's so wrong with wanting to see spending cuts first?

Joe
The budget was cut in 1998,1999 and1999. Thus , the budget surplus. Ponzi scheme?

No irresponsible voting by us.

Spending cuts will do nothing to spur the economy. When the economy is doing better and unemployment drops then cuts must be made.

Get Real Jim....The biggest problem is Federal dependency. We have 47% of the country who pay zero federal income taxes every year. Gee go figure they want to raise taxes to solve the problem. That is their answer to everything and it has nothing to do with intelligence. It is simple greed a Neanderthal could figure out.

The only relevant thing is what the people who actually do not get all their taxes refunded and/or an Earned Income Tax Credit think. Screw the rest of the people paying NOTHING!

That is what got us into this mess. The majority of American wage earners pay no federal taxes. Even their SS/Medicare and consumption taxes are more than wiped out with Earned Income Tax Credits. How can you have the majority of your country paying no taxes and able to vote endless unfunded entitlements for themselves?

Ya, the congress has no responsibility here right. Waiting on superman good luck with that..

Rob: It sounds like you are misidentifying the problem with gas prices as well as the cost of other commodities. Speculators are given free reign to control, and cause increase in, prices. When Obama and the Democrats wanted to regulate them and other predatory parts of wall street the Republicans in congress refused to hear of it! They get huge donations from these speculators and they don't want to bite the hand that feeds them.

keep blaming the party not in power - it worked so well in the mid terms.

doantions from speculators??? The one billion dollar campaigner....gee where's that money coming from? I thought the messiah was going to put an end "business as usual"??

well, Koch Industries is a sizeable player in the energy spec market... they don't so much contribute to Dems, if you hadn't noticed. Like this:

Currently, the public knows very little about the oil speculation industry because a conservative majority on the CFTC has refused to implement a mandate from the Dodd-Frank Wall Street reform bill to curb abuses. Meanwhile, Republicans are pushing steep cuts to the CFTC, hampering any new rules on oil speculation that may be released later this summer. Fortunately, both the Securities and Exchange Commission and the CFTC have so far survived the latest round of budget cuts.

While much of the attention on oil speculators has rested on the backs of investors and commodity traders, the petrochemical conglomerate Koch Industries occupies a unique role in manipulating the oil market. Koch has little business in the extraction process. Instead, Koch focuses on shipping crude oil, refining it, distributing it to retailers — then speculating on the future price. With control of every part of the market, Koch is able to bet on future prices with superior information. As Yasha Levine notes, Koch along with Enron pioneered a number of complex financial products to leverage its privileged position in the energy industry.

In 2008, Koch called attention to itself for “contango” oil market manipulation. A commodity market is said to be in contango when future prices are expected to rise, that is, when demand is expected to outstrip supply. Big banks and companies like Koch employ a contango strategy by buying up oil and storing it in massive containers both on land and offshore to lock in the oil for sale later at a set price. In December of 2008, Koch leased “four supertankers to hold oil in the U.S. Gulf Coast to take advantage of rising prices in the months ahead.” Writing about Koch’s contango efforts to artificially drive down supply, Fortune magazine writer Jon Birger noted they could be raising “gasoline prices by anywhere from 20 to 40 cents a gallon” at the time. Speaking with the Business Times, Koch executive David Chang even boasted that falling crude prices in 2008 provided an opportunity remove oil from the market for future delivery:

CHANG: The drop in crude oil prices from more than US$145 per barrel in July 2008 to less than US$35 per barrel in December 2008 has presented opportunities for companies such as ours. In the physical business, purchases of crude oil from producers and storing offshore in tankers allow us to benefit from the contango market where crude prices are higher for future delivery than for prompt delivery.

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/04/13/koch-industries-price-gouging/

again - the dems had a near super majority for two solid years....why did they not fix the (or any) problems????

Rob: Didn't you read about the party of no? A "near super majority" is not an actual super majority. The Republicans blocked every attempt to move our country forward and to do something about the Wall Street looting of our treasury. If you want to stand up for that, then go for it!

What are you guys talking about. Neither party can control the speculators. You think oil futures are only traded in the US?

My favorite solution is for the US government to quietly sell options then announce to the world we are selling our oil reserve. After we make a big profit on the market decline we say ... ah never mind we will keep the reserve. It will take very little to pop the bubble on oil prices.

Rob in ma-3189632

again - the dems had a near super majority for two solid years....why did they not fix the (or any) problems????

If you missed it, Rob, I'll repeat it for you.

...a conservative majority on the CFTC has refused to implement a mandate from the Dodd-Frank Wall Street reform bill to curb abuses. Meanwhile, Republicans are pushing steep cuts to the CFTC, hampering any new rules on oil speculation that may be released later this summer...

The finance reform bill from last year contains the first efforts to rein in abusive speculation practices since Phil Gramm deregulated energy futures in 2000. You ask "why didn't they fix this (or any) problem?

Here's one example of what DID get done, in the face of 100% opposition from the Repubs. You can't blame the Repubs for obstructing, of course, because that would spoil your I-hate-Dems narrative.

If your Repubs weren't blocking implementation in the CFTC right now, you would not be paying $4/gal for gasoline. Get it now?

And you think the GOP's on your side. LOL.

so lakerman...the party of no had that much power? So you must not have blamed Bush during his years for anything, right? I mean bush never had a super majority either.

He gets a free ride because they whole-heartedly endorsed him during his 2008 campaign. Never underestimate the willingness of sheep to follow their shepard over a cliff if it allows them to never have to publicly acknowledge their own stupidity. Most U.S. media has become absolutely worthless for finding the truth, CNN is the only one that even comes close.

Rob,

"again - the dems had a NEAR super majority for two solid years."

In your own words. With the Republicans using ever legislative trick available to them, they were able to drive proposals into the ground. Anyone who thinks that holding the majority hostage to the desires of the minority in so many instances is ignoring what this country was founded on.

When the Senate could be stopped from even considering over 400 bills democratically voted on and passed by the House, many time in a bipartisan vote, there is no governance.

As we write and read this, the House Republicans are ignoring the majority of Americans when they say that they will not even discuss a possible return to the tax rates that were in place before the temporary tax relief measures implemented during the Bush era as a part of the plan to resolve the debt issue. This is not what the American people want with this current group.

Rorschach,

You have an interesting take on contango. If futures prices are higher and Koch buys now, they will LOWER the price in the future because they have to sell the actual oil they've bought. They can't eat it, you know.

Rorchach is an inkblot ...................... his posts play the blame game on the Republicans for everything the POTUS is screwing up !

Obama leadership.......like trying to fly an airplane backwards !!

Economan

Rorschach,

You have an interesting take on contango. If futures prices are higher and Koch buys now, they will LOWER the price in the future because they have to sell the actual oil they've bought. They can't eat it, you know.

OK. Say Koch buys oil at $100. They have the capacity to store it until the price goes up. They're making a safe bet, because between them and the rest of the spec players, the pressure they're putting on the market will run the price up further. They don't have to eat it - they're setting the price continually higher all by themselves. This is anything but a "free" market.

The 2006 Senate investigation said thus:

http://hsgac.senate.gov/public/_files/SenatePrint10965MarketSpecReportFINAL.pdf

“Until recently, US energy futures were traded exclusively on regulated exchanges within the United States, like the NYMEX, which are subject to extensive oversight by the CFTC, including ongoing monitoring to detect and prevent price manipulation or fraud. In recent years, however, there has been a tremendous growth in the trading of contracts that look and are structured just like futures contracts, but which are traded on unregulated OTC electronic markets. Because of their similarity to futures contracts they are often called “futures look-alikes.”

The only practical difference between futures look-alike contracts and futures contracts is that the look-alikes are traded in unregulated markets whereas futures are traded on regulated exchanges. The trading of energy commodities by large firms on OTC electronic exchanges was exempted from CFTC oversight by a provision inserted at the behest of Enron and other large energy traders into the Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000 in the waning hours of the 106th Congress.

The impact on market oversight has been substantial. NYMEX traders, for example, are required to keep records of all trades and report large trades to the CFTC. These Large Trader Reports, together with daily trading data providing price and volume information, are the CFTC’s primary tools to gauge the extent of speculation in the markets and to detect, prevent, and prosecute price manipulation. CFTC Chairman Reuben Jeffrey recently stated: “The Commission’s Large Trader information system is one of the cornerstones of our surveillance program and enables detection of concentrated and coordinated positions that might be used by one or more traders to attempt manipulation.”

In contrast to trades conducted on the NYMEX, traders on unregulated OTC electronic exchanges are not required to keep records or file Large Trader Reports with the CFTC, and these trades are exempt from routine CFTC oversight. In contrast to trades conducted on regulated futures exchanges, there is no limit on the number of contracts a speculator may hold on an unregulated OTC electronic exchange, no monitoring of trading by the exchange itself, and no reporting of the amount of outstanding contracts (“open interest”) at the end of each day.”

jim-1455434

Rorchach is an inkblot ...................... his posts play the blame game on the Republicans for everything the POTUS is screwing up !

The rules change was made as part of fixing the damage from the 2008 crash. Republicans are blocking it, and right-wing bots keep trying to say otherwise. You don't have to take my word for it: try some research of your own (which might need to exclude Fox, if you can bear it.) Obama sure as hell didn't tell the GOP to stall implementation. You can try to blame this on Obama, but you don't have a leg to stand on and neither does the GOP.

The Federal government should go bankrupt, get rid of the Fed, let the Treasury Department print money backed by gold and silver, drastically cut all Foreign aid and support, withdraw all military from foreign soils, raise taxes on the wealthy and corporations, stimulate the economy while creating more taxable income through increases in salaries, raise the standard of living for the poor (Social Security recipients), trade globalization and free trade for Nationalism and isolation, and start another Industrial Revolution.

Do I think any of the above rambling solution will ever happen? No! Not by choice. Then again we didn't win our freedom from our English oppressors by going to the polls.

Rorschach,

I believe you have it backwards. Koch buys oil "now" while the price is low. You're carping about "later" when the price is higher. If Koch sells then (which is the obvious plan), it will lower the price later.

The only "victims" are those who are selling low "now". If the evil speculators would just bid the price up "now", Koch wouldn't be able to make its dastardly profits.

You say it's not a free market. Well, it certainly is. Koch is/was doing a routine arbitrage. It tends to even out prices. Whoopee.

You seem to have a neurosis about speculators. Pas moi. They're just gamblers, albeit often with other people's money. Does it occur to you that for nearly every gambler who is long an oil contract, there is another who is short? One wins; one loses. Whoopee.

If you have some secret about how the evil speculator/gamblers can manipulate oil prices, I'd really like to hear it. After all, there's nothing stopping us from buying or selling futures contracts. It only takes a few thousand dollars of capital. Gosh, we could get really rich and then we wouldn't have to pay any taxes.

Economan...

I've put the info up. You're blowing it off. It's hardly just me: as I pointed out earlier, the Senate identified this problem in 2008. When the energy futures markets were deregulated, prices started going wonky and the traditional laws of supply/demand have no effect. The same deregulation allowed the Enron debacle in California several years ago. The finance reform from last year addresses it. There must be a reason why the Repubs are blocking it, don't you think? Not much more I can do. I think you know it's true, so what's the point of discussing with you?

As if it makes a difference, here - again - is the Senate report.

http://hsgac.senate.gov/public/_files/SenatePrint10965MarketSpecReportFINAL.pdf

Rorschach,

Yeah, I read the bit about the Senate. You're right. I do indeed blow it off. Ever hear the line about how everything looks like a nail if you're a hammer? Well, that's what I see in the Senate. High intelligence and a diligent search for and adherence to the whole truth probably disqualify one from high office in this country. They think the response to bad regulation is more regulation. How's that working out?

Re Enron and "deregulation": The energy markets were never deregulated. They were just "regulated" differently. Enron took advantage of the fools who made really stupid rules. That's been pretty well documented for the masses.

You say the "traditional laws of supply/demand have no effect". Really? Doesn't look that way from here. The markets still clear at a price. I have no doubt that if the next incarnation of Jimmy Carter tried to set a ceiling on oil prices, he could generate long lines at the gas stations just the way Carter did. Reagan "deregulated" gas and oil prices and nobody's been able to generate the long lines since. Sounds like a market working just fine to me.

Frank-Dodd? What a joke! Do Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac still exist? Enough said. Frank-Dodd will probably end up doing as much harm as Sarbanes-Oxley. You should hope the Republicans manage to block it.

All this started over the effects of contango. I stand by my analysis. Koch arbitraged profits away from the people who sold "now" on the cheap, and in the process helped keep the price of oil LOWER "later".

well, Economan, obviously we're looking at this from polar opposite perspectives. I'm sure you have your reasons, and they're probably as personal as my own. Personally, I'm tired of getting hosed on energy commodities. Maybe you're making money on the deal. Nice for you, but if you are -- don't expect me to hand over the money that I earn without a peep. I work a hell of a lot harder for my money than the guy flipping electronic trades in the futures market.

I have reason to believe that commodity prices can be manipulated in the present regulatory framework: precedent exists re: Enron's gaming of the California electric market a few years ago. That event ties directly to deregulated energy trading. Ample evidence exists that the 2008 oil/gas bubble resulted from the anarchy that exists in the market.

Now we're doing it again, and I really hope that the people pulling those strings with one hand aren't waving the flag and pronouncing themselves "patriots" -- because they're anything but. No patriot knowingly and willingly screws over his fellow citizens like that.

But I will thank you for not stooping to the typical antagonistic-and-worse level that typically occurs here.

Rorschach,

But I will thank you for not stooping to the typical antagonistic-and-worse level that typically occurs here.

Ditto to you!

You're probably right about the polar opposites, but you might be interested to know that I have a very bad attitude about most everyone on Wall Street. I can't tell that they're anything more than gamblers who gamble mostly with other people's money. Being of a libertarian bent, it's OK with me that they do what they do, but I also believe that the government shouldn't help them out. I'm guessing that we have a lot of common ground there.

I was thinking some more about the contango issue. I'm still convinced that the Koch brothers actions benefit us. To clarify, I would ask the following question: What's the difference between buying oil (cheap) and storing it on tanker ships with the intention of selling later for a higher price (during a time of greater scarcity) and - The Strategic Petroleum Reserve.

Think about it. Both moderate price swings and make more oil available during times of scarcity.

Do you see any difference except that one is private and the other is a government enterprise?

Take the founding fathers red pill greg, you're reading typical liberal bogus material

LBJ laid the groundwork for the entitlements smothering us today: Medicare, Medicaid, War on Poverty, Food Stamps, Aid to Unwed mothers, etc. etc. You want the GOP to be the one to say "no" so you and your socialist friends can point the finger at the "granny killers".

How can that be so greg? The dems have had control of congress 80% of the time since WWII and have had a super majority in the senate 26% of the time compared to 0% for the reps! Prezs can't spend a dime without the house approval!

Greg - Everyone knows Dems are not "Tax and Spend", Dems are "Borrow and Spend and Spend and Spend".

G.M.,

The Dems are indeed "tax and spend"-ers. The Reps have been "don't tax so much and spend anyway"-ers. In either case, the problem is too much spending.

Now the Reps want to do something about the spending side. Are you suggesting that they shouldn't?

Cutting taxes was done on the spending side -- adding to the deficit -- when Bush cut them. Cutting taxes further is more of the same.

If you owe $100,000 in credit card debt, will you be able to pay off the debt faster by taking a lower paying job?

And while they are at it, kick out all the illegals! That is one real secret to our debt problem. Their labor is way too expensive!!!

To late for that . It is done !

You have hit the nail dead center... Obama cares about himself and the Dems. and the hell with us who work for a living

Thank you . Yes he tells all of us to get Hybrid cars ? And I ask this how can WE ??? We can't afford FOOD ! let alone gas ! But hey he wants to raise TAXES raise gas prices and food prices and have us all living in POVERTY ! HEY OBAMA WAKE UP ! WE ARE ALL LIVING IN POVERTY ! Just tell me one thing Obama I live in an RV Because I can not get a LOAN for a real home , How can I get fuel efficiency on this 6.6MPG RIG ? Turn it into a Hybrid ? He is living in a bream world so detached from EVERY THING it is not even funny any more !

Keep your tires inflated, and Obama will solve everything else!

trickson - 1st, Obama doesn't control the gas and oil prices. 2nd, Members of Congress are so rich they can't relate to how the average American lives. 3rd, Congress needs to address the real issues instead of spending time trying to push through their idealogical agendas such as getting rid of planned parenthood, union busting, fighting gay rights, etc. They are so consumed with controlling peoples personal choices, they can't run the country.

And wouldn't it be nice if some of those fighting against gay rights would stop getting caught in the expressway rest areas playing footsie in the bathroom stalls?

Now let's be fair, they don't play footsies in expressway rest area bathroom stalls. They have way too much class for that. They go to the airport and play footsies in airport bathroom stalls. The airport is a much more upscale place to meet anonymous homosexual partners for those moral, family values conservatives fighting against the godless gay rights agenda.

1st, Obama doesn't control the gas and oil prices.

Not exactly true. Would you agree that if a country has to import something from a far, it generally supposed to cost more then being able to produce it locally? Or should be. The moratoririam (sic) of drilling oil in the Gulf as imposed by the President of the United States was not put in place by Congress, the Americian people, or the oil companies.

Congress needs to address the real issues instead of spending time trying to push through their idealogical agendas such as getting rid of planned parenthood, union busting, fighting gay rights, etc

This, I agree with. That is why I think BOTH sides messed up in December. Some of this stuff is Economic 101. If a person has a problem with debate and deficeit spending, there are only three options for them; Cut spending; Increase revinue; Do both. Yet just this past December, we did the worse possible thing all in the same bill all because it was political expedient. We extended the tax cuts (continue with less revinue) as well as extending the un-employment for another year (increased spending).

What can Obama do? Bush, Obama, Clinton, they are all the same. The only thing they can do is to encourage people borrow, so that banks create money out of thin air and creates the illusion of a good economy. When the debt is due with interest, deflation hits.

They say GDP is up. They say recovery is underway. At what cost?? To explain the severity of the situation, we need 2 more charts next to the GDP charts. One is public debt, the other is private debt as a percentage of GDP. We are borrowing and spending. We are at a sugar high. When the pay back time arrives, it is going to get ugly again!

www.kondratieffwavecycle.com/double-dip-recession/

GDP is up, but debt is up even more. It is a borrowed recovery. The idea that the government can fix the economy is a myth. Social mood directs the markets, economy, politics. Government intervention only makes things worse. FDIC, FED, Fannie, Freddie are the cause of our problems. Free markets, small government, less tax was the way to go. The government does not have the vision for economic progress. They only make impossible promises and when things go south, they demand bailout at tax payer expense.

Obviously you have a job and therefore are not dependent upon the extended Unemployment Benefits that were being held hostage by the Republicans in exchange for passing the CR.

And obviously you have a short term memory problem since that whole exchange happened less than six months ago. No, it wasn't the best deal, but it was what had to be done at the time in order to put money into the hands of average Americans who have been decimated by this historic job loss, housing foreclosures and the banks tightening of lending underwriting standards.

The founders knew all to well to keep "charity" away from the federal government. The people would "save, help and support" themselves right into bankruptcy. Just in the last two years we supported the entire banking industry, AIG bailout, GM & Fannie/Freddie, $1 trillion Stimulus given to Democratic lobbies with laser precision etc etc etc... this was in addition to our other $50 Trillion in "unfunded" entitlements. Not to mention we now have 3 wars for oil and banking cartel prosperity and defense contractor welfare.

The government has no business beyond a survival safety net of homeless shelters and soup kitchens. We are now addicted to and expect middle class welfare so we can save our SUV, houses, college educations, 401K's and all kinds of other crap charity not means tested for bottom level survival.

I mean how do we rationalize some poor broke construction worker living paycheck to paycheck while busting his back to raise 3 kids in a crummy apartment to pay extended unemployment to someone with six figures in a 401K, owns a home with equity, has thousands in equity in a $40K truck, has cash reserves and a spouse making $60K a year?

This whole system is a bunch of crap beyond a homeless shelter and soup kitchen. How can you justify taking taxes from people with less than yourself to prop up your middle class lifestyle? It all simply has to stop.