This is a great article!

What you don't hear about is how ITT Tech, ECPI, University of Phoenix and small business/technical schools prey on individuals. Small business schools will lure prospective students in with promises of a better life with great paying jobs and a program that lasts just 18 months. The individual usually ends up paying zero upfront but accepts $30,000+ of loans. I am not saying that they don't educate but they will lure in individuals who cannot succeed due to their previous education. Whereas large universities do their best to "weed out" individuals early or at least help satisfy core classes so that if a different educational path is chosen then all is not lost.

I had a guy work for me as a web developer straight out of ECPI. He graduated from their 2 year website program. He knew nothing. I had a long conversation about his training and he told me that it cost him just over $48,000 for 2 years at ECPI. He told me that they had team projects but that he really didn't feel like he learned much. I couldn't keep him. Last I heard he was working at Burger King.

We need to remove this misperception that every kid needs to go to college, and for those who don't earn scholarships, there needs to be some firm hooks in them that will make them have to pay school loans like it's child support payments.

Why not?

because a work force doesn't need all chiefs, we need a lot of "braves" too. College should be for the smart, not for just anyone who wants to go waste 6 years of their parents money. now all these people owe on loans for a worthless degree, worthless because every c- student nowadays has one.
just like everyone shouldn't own a house, not everyone should go to college.
ps: I have a great job that has NOTHING to do with my degree. I found that working your a** off often has far greater rewards...

What the heck are you talking about "every kid" being pushed to college?? Fewer than 30% of Americans graduate college with even a BA degree. Why do you think we have to import so many of our highly skilled workers from other countries? We simply don't have enough doctors, engineers, and in some places teachers and nurses.

The unemployment rate for college graduates through the recession was 4%. If you want to increase the line between have and have nots, argue against education. We don't need to be LOWERING the bar below what it already is.

You're right, a nation of educated people is a horrible idea. Lets keep everyone uneducated and working slave labor, thats the solution.

I pay for mine as I go as well. One more semester left. :)

I plan on returning for further studies later on.

College is not worth the debt to the majority of students. It's just not.

It's basically another lock you into debt and pay for your life from the banks/colleges. It's basically more financial slavery.

Unless you are going into engineering, the math or sciences, medical fields, college is basically a waste for most. You do not need a degree for most fields.

Most of these kids are just going to socialize the first few years, but you don't need to spend $25K+ plus a year to do that. Take a year off and go travel instead. for 3/4 that.

The first semesters are basically filler classes that the colleges put there to make you stay longer. They are basically worthless to your final degree/field.

You can learn much more in your field if you just apprenticeship or learn on your own via the web. The majority of colleges don't prepare students for real world work situations anyway.

Schools should also be forced to show students the average pay of someone in their field and also show them what it's going to cost to attend their university along with how long it will take to pay back the loan making that salary.

This is a good read
http://www.jamesaltucher.com/2011/01/8-alternatives-to-college/

There are also a few articles out there that talk about how plumbers, electricians and the like will make more then the majority of college grads over their lifetime and much sooner. And there is another article that talks about just reading business books will give you a better knowledge of finance then any school ever could.

Good luck USA 1! My eldest is completing her 2nd year; she was lucky enough to get a job as an RA this year and next, which helps enormously with the cost. She also works, and covers all her daily living expenses.

She has also been blessed to be eligible for financial aid, which has (so far) made it possible, with her hard work, to avoid loans to date. We also made some hard decisions about where she went to school; she was accepted to several private colleges but, even with scholarships and financial aid, loans would have been unavoidable. So she chose to attend a state college, and loves it.

She also is beginning to understand how fortunate she is not to be burdened with debt. Hopefully her younger sister will be as sensible about her choices this summer as she plans her college future.

College tuition price increases are DIRECTLY related to government backed loans.... in the 60s you could go to medical school for $500/sem.

Just like Healthcare... when the government is paying... pricing are GUARANTEED to rise. In a TRUE free market these school could have to COMPETE in part on price as well.

And there is widespread concern about those who borrow heavily for college, then drop out, or take extra years to graduate.

This is an issue that is somewhat addressed by others on this thread.

First -- our high schools are NOT preparing our kids for college. That's why they drop out or take longer (remedial classes). This is NOT just the fault of our educational system, but also of the parents who do not support education for their children.

Second -- we do NOT need to send all of our kids to college to make a good living. Plumbers, electricians, auto mechanics, web designers, etc. all make great livings. They have post secondary educations, but NOT traditional four year colleges.

Although some up here NEVER like to admit that Europe does anything good, their education system far outweighs ours. The reasons? One, they weed out the highly motivated and smart students early and they are groomed for traditional university. Others who are more inclined toward vocational school have that opportunity and study in "high school" accordingly. Those who have no interest or no inclination to school have a basic education and then go directly to work. There is none of this NCLB nonsense because they admit not all kids are equal in ability and/or motivation.

You can learn much more in your field if you just apprenticeship or learn on your own via the web. The majority of colleges don't prepare students for real world work situations anyway.

I never went to college and started my own business. I earn more than many of my friends with graduate degrees.

I got my start selling PCs to businesses in the early 90s when I was 14 years old.

Get your kids interested in their careers EARLY... Their AMBITION and DRIVE to find their passions is AS IMPORTANT if not MORE than their education.

duncancl

I had a guy work for me as a web developer straight out of ECPI. He graduated from their 2 year website program. He knew nothing.

Considering I experienced the opposite, though for network security dealing with IDS systems, I would have to say it depends on the person. (I would have asked to see their transcript, you probably got what you paid for - pay peanuts, get monkeys)

Good Points James-

I went to school for engineering and graduated in '09 with my bachelors. Pretty much the worst possible time for a recent grad with no experience. I finally got a job in my field back in June 2010, but had to take less money than what I normally would get paid due to lack of competition. With what I make today, I cannot afford to pay off my loans yet, but I do qualify for deferment. My father had no money while I was growing up, my parents seperated when I was five. I was lucky enough to get academic scholaiships to help with school but it still wasnt enough to cover everything. Right now I dont even make 30k a year. In my spare time I'm remodeling my fathers old house, wich my great-grandfather lived in his whole life so we own it. The plumber I had come in, worked for 3 days and cost me more than I make in two weeks. He started plumbing 3 years ago.

Those who have no interest or no inclination to school have a basic education and then go directly to work. There is none of this NCLB nonsense because they admit not all kids are equal in ability and/or motivation.

You make some good points but you miss the MAIN problem. Our student loan system is a SCAM for the big banks backed and PUSHED by the government.

If there were no government student loans, school costs would DROP dramatically. Again, before all of this nonsense, you could work 1 summer to earn the $300-$500 you would need for the semester.

College is overrated. The fact is apprenticeship programs are better. I went to school for 6 years. After I completed school I received a bachelors in business management and a bachelors in civil engineering. During my "Tenure" at college, I did two summer internships and one co-op (For those who may not know, a co-op is where you take a semester off to work in your field of study). I accumulated over $100,000 in debt.

The secret is to try to pay your interest and principle while you are at school. It may not be much, but ever dollar you can put back is helpful. Paying the minimum each month will take you 10-30 years. Not too mention the interest you pay in the long run is almost criminal.

The problem in this country is the ease of financing and getting into debt. If you aren't able to get access to this virtual money, prices would plummet. Take an automobile for instance. Who really has $30,000.00 in cash to buy a new vehicle? Not many people, but people do finance and pay on it on a monthly basis. If you did not have access to this credit and the market had to respond to real time supply and demand, then the price of a vehicle would be at most $10,000.00 and that is being conservative.

The ease of credit brings the cost of products and services up. For once, I will refrain from making political remarks.

The fact is though, college is not for everyone. You can be skilled worker without the classroom, by good old fashioned experience. This is why apprenticeship programs work. I don't think it's right for everyone to be shoved through college on government subsidies.

The market is flooded with degreed morons. Too many kids who cheated, struggled, sucked, grovelled, and bought their way to a degree in American Studies. A degree no longer has the value that practical experience has. Employers love hiring non-degreed personal with a lot of experience because they're cheaper, and more likely to hang around longer.

Tuition and boarding costs are not a secret. If you can't afford the cost or the loan repayment (based on an entry level salary) then you need to look into a less expensive option. A public university, community college, commute instead of board, etc.

Also, student loans are the only debt not forgivable under current bankruptcy laws (for profit universities know this all too well). You will pay it back, at any cost. Which means paying it off as soon as possible should be a top priority once you graduate. Anyone with a degree should be intelligent enough to know better than just making minimum payments when you could afford to pay more. If it's a large debt, then it should be more important than the nice car, the expensive vacation, the huge wedding or even a house.

If your grades/scores aren't good enough to earn you a spot at a public university, then maybe college isn't for you, yet. Beware of any for profit (e.g. National, Phoenix, Devry, etc.) who tells you otherwise because it will cost you.

I greatly sympathize for high school students who are having tuitions at public universities constantly raised beyond their means. But, I have a hard time listening to so-called intelligent people complain about the large debt they willingly took on and let grow. Wake up people, this is college we're talking about, become smarter consumers and do a little research - for your sake or that of your children. You don't take on $100k of debt for a field that doesn't have the potential of earning $100k, especially not in your initial years. That should be common sense.

I have no college debt - I went to a state university, worked hard to get scholarships, and then paid extra on my student loans whenever I could. I graduated in the mid 1990s and college was more affordable then. I graduated with 12k in debt, and paid it off in 10 years, which seemed too long. Costs have spiralled wildly out of control since. I couldnt go directly into college, I worked a couple of years first, and I took many of the prereq. courses at the local community college during summers. Parents shouldnt push kids into college, nor should they pay the entire bill. Kids need to learn the value of working hard, and of the costs too. Its as important a lesson as college is. The blueblood brats will always have thier fare through life paid fully by the family trust fund - but for the rest - let your kids earn that degree. Let them spend the first few years out of high school stumbling about a bit, too, and guide them with words rather than with dollars. If they are to be college bound, they will show thier interest pretty early on. Working full time in a low-skill job for a few years is a good reality check, and they may just find rewarding work without going to college.

As for the comment above about "filler classes" early on in college. Those are not classes for the sake of filling time! They are intended to prepare you for a professional career, and also the foundations for more involved studies later on. They are intended to inform a student about the world in general. Every learned individual should know something about the world about them beyond programming languages or whatever specific discipline they choose to study in. They should learn something about culture, art, literature, history, proper writing and speaking. The basics such as chemistry, calculus, physics - are indispensible in training the mind to think in a logical manner. Its like training for a marathon, strengthening and tempering the brain.

I have a degree in the sciences. I am currently not employed. I have averaged only 30K a year when working. I am a bit miffed that I havent a cent saved at this point in my life, and don't have my own home. That beind said, however, I don't regret going to college. It has made me a more aware person and a critical thinker. I do believe theres more to life and success than getting a college degree and / or working your a$$ off. I think theres a whole lot of chance involved too. Most of us do the best we can, and some who deserve to succeed based on education hard work and intelligence still fail, and some who shouldn't succeed based on lack of ethics or downright criminality, succeed. So goes life.

I feel we're missing out on a major factor contributing to the massive loan debt students are accruing: personal choice under pressure.

There is a good amount of exhortation from fellow students, families and high school career advisors to strive for a school with an exceptional reputation. By and large those institutions which are the most sought-after also rank among the most expensive. Very little in the way of information about the cost-savings available to a student (especially should a route through a local community college to complete general education degree requirements be taken!) is available. General perception about supposedly lower-quality education at local state-funded schools also exists.

I number among those who bowed to social pressures and sought my education in a widely well-regarded New England institution only to be saddled with ever-mounting debt for coursework and instruction my first four semesters that was - at best - sub-par when compared to the instruction I later received in a community college for far less a price-tag.

I regret having to drop out and I regret the nearly $20,000 in debt I acquired. It was money more or less pissed into the wind, if you'll forgive the expression, next to the less than $3,000 (books and all!) it cost me out of pocket to re-take nearly identical credit hours five years after the fact.

Point being, I believe we should do more to aid prospective students to make intelligent and practical choices when it comes to weighing which school to attend and for what purpose. We do the freshly-graduated a disservice otherwise.

A problem I have with the ease of college loans is, it starts kids off with a big burden when they graduate. I think most kids would be better taking 6 or 8 years to get a degree by going part-time and working to pay as they go. I went into the service to save for 4 years, and then delivered pizza's while I took classes. Sure, it took me 8 years altogether, but when I graduated I had zero debt (actually, a few thousand savings left from my time in the service).

Beth:

You are correct on a lot of levels. In Europe, society still respects the concept of "guilds" and trade schools. Choosing such a path doesn't inherently put them at a disadvantage economically or socially. Yet here in the USA, we no longer believe in this concept.

I personally find it humorous that the number of people who had BA degrees around 100 years ago are similar to the people who have Masters degrees in our current age. People used to go to college because it put them on a level above the average individual. Now that so many people go to college because that's what the corporate world expects, people have to go to college for even longer if they still want the kind of edge that people wanted a century ago.

----------

Being 31 years old, I'm also about to return to college. Why? Though I had graduated highschool and tested out my scores in the upper percent, the truth is that I really didn't know what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. I ended up going to college for the next couple of years while I tried a few different areas that I could major in, but I never managed to find something that I was passionate about. In the end, I stopped going to college because it wasn't taking me anywhere I wanted to go. The number of years that my own family (immediate and extended) acted like there was something wrong with me wasn't very fair, but that's our current society for you.

I went into the "real world". The whole adult working world was really a much better fit for me. Though I didn't initially find a career path, it helped me to gain a lot of valueable life skills and personal growth. In my early 20's, I tried going back to college for night school courses. My parents still wanted me to get a degree and the corporate world had convinced me that I would remain an economic serf if I lacked that piece of paper (even if I never had to really use it). However after going for about a year part-time, I realized that nothing had truly changed. I couldn't find the passion to truly care about getting a "dime a dozen" business degree, nor about any other major that I had previously experienced. Coming to the conclussion that college still wasn't taking me in the right direction, I once again stopped taking classes.

Fast forward to now. I've been working in the white collar area of the construction industry for 6 years. White collar construction? Do people even realize that these kinds of jobs exist? No, most people don't. There really is no kind of degree for what I do. In the construction industry, we mostly operate in an apprenticeship system of training. People may be able to get an opportunity with a degree if they're a complete stranger, but the general tone of the industry is that we care more about what a particular person is capable of and not what pieces of paper that they possess.

Yet I'm looking towards the future and planning on switching areas within the construction field. One of the unfortunate drawbacks of an informal apprenticeship system is that it doesn't make it easy for a person to physically move to another state or for them to change areas within an industry. This has provoked me into going back to college again. However this time, everything is different. I know who I am, what I'm about, and I've found a good fitting career path that I'm passionate about. There are a lot of genuinely respected 2 year degree programs at my local community college (Columbus State) which are part of national associations of programs. Between working full time, taking a couple classes per quarter, and shaving off the general requirements junk courses through my transfered credits, I'm looking at around 2.5 years in school. But now that I'm going for something that I want and an area which I care about, the time really isn't an issue.

What are the morals of my own life story?

First off, only go to college for a major that you're passionate about. If you can't find something that feels right in those initial years right out of highschool, then I'd suggest taking a break while you figure out who you are and what you want in the adult working world. Then once you have a clearer picture, you can return to college to chase your dream.

Another key is investigation. Like Beth mentioned above, there are a lot of really good 2 year programs in a lot of fields. I've got a cousin who's in the excavating side of construction. He got his certifications right out of highschool, found an area of construction which he's passionate about, and now runs his own company (which is far more profitable than working for someone else). I'm also going back to school now that I found an industry that I like and I have a very clear idea about the type of job which I'd like to have in the next 10-20 years. Many community colleges (such has Columbus State) are part of nationally accredited programs. Look around online and make sure that you're getting a degree which will truly have some kind of value.

Other countries are increasing their percentage of college graduates at an exponential rate.

You want to leave America in the dust? Take away PELL grants and ensure that only those with wealthy parents can go to college.

Short-sighted right-wing idiocy. "Save a buck today, waste a nation tomorrow."

The system is corrupted, there’s no way for
a normal person to get through school without taking out loans, these loans are
just another way to keep us enslave to the bankers and the system. So here
borrow the money, when if you graduate try to get a job working for us so that
you can pay the money that you owe us, and by the way don’t forget that you
need to buy the house and of course we’ll let you borrow that money too so that
you have to work till you die working for us. It’s an endless cycle to keep us
down and making them even more powerful! SOMETHING GOT TO GIVE WAY!!!

Just like healthcare, the Obama administration is missing the root of the problem.

The cost.

The cost of education is outpacing the economy by about the same degree as medical costs. This is a crisis. And all colleges are "for profit". If they are putting up new buildings, increasing the pay of administrators and staff, increasing amenities and services...the profit is just being redirected.

Get control of the cost of education first, then work on the loans.

@Post 1.18 - A fair point. Long have I wondered why so many universities offer degree programs for subjects that seemingly exist merely to propogate themselves.

How many medieval studies majors do we really need?

I see a great many complaints elsewise about the system supposedly being corrupted; about blaming social and political conservatives, parents, etc.

It seems any scapegoat will do - but why avoid, pointedly, personal responsibility? Are we collectively unwilling to address the notion that one must want to go to college for a correct reason? That college is very much a future investment requiring planning and forethought rather than an entitlement?

I will not state that budget restraints aren't going to put the pinch on millions. That's a fact, but to me, avoiding the issue of how to responsibly approach attending a university is indicative of the broader American sentiment towards avoiding responsibility for, well, anything, really - especially knowing of and refusing to address the variety of unsustainable budget concerns that've led us to our current economic situation.

An irresponsible attitude won't see a person through college, regardless of how well-funded they are.

Sort of like the way GE and Exxon/Mobil avoid their personal responsibility to pay taxes. Seeing that they're now "people".

So lots of comments in the survey that they borrow a boat load of money and only earn $40K a year with their degree. Well D'oh - bad investment and reap your rewards!

Why does it makes sense for a government program to perpetuate this imbalance between the demand for degreed people and the over supply. Maybe we should learn from England who have PhD's collecting trash... As soon as the government steps in the imbalance occurs and things get worse not better...

I worked, paid as I went and my children are doing the same. Loans are a disease.

My older brother barely graduated HS and is proof you don't need college to succeed he lives in a muti-million dollar mansion in Texas.

Yes, we need to breed a bigger class of uneducated serfs. That way they will continue to believe that the Koch Bros. are looking out for them and won't raise hell when corporate tax rates are cut.

I'd say the biggest problem is advertising. First we have for profits that tell you in 18 months you can get a degree that will make you earn more then 1 million extra in your lifetime (only true for bachelors, and probably not true anymore). Second we have universities that spend gobs of money just to pull people into attending, and then short change the students that are going there already.

Its not just schools that are at fault, but we also have this mentality again that A. The students are getting the benefit so they should take the entire payment on their shoulders (the first thing to go in these budget battles is always Public Grants) B. Everyone needs to go to college (its great for most people to go, but we are forcing a lot of people to go that don't want to, or have no clue on why). We end up with people going for degree's that mean little to nothing (everyone in the world has a business MBA, yet thats the most advertised Masters program; Some people graduate with 50,000+ in debt from degrees in things like Psychology [only useful at higher levels], and American Studies).

People promise graduates a great job as long as they pay for that education, meanwhile we suck away their other options. Then they don't want to actually work for a degree so they stay undeclared (not always a bad thing but I see it abused daily, also if you decide you then need to take more core classes increasing your time) or get a useless degree (we should study everything but having 50,000+ for a degree saying you vaguely understand economics or the revolutionary war is bull).

And on the other spectrum we have people who are willing to work hard getting screwed. I just finished my masters in Fire Protection Engineering (after getting my Chemical engineering undergraduate) and I want to continue to get my PhD, but grants are disappearing right out from under us. It seems you need someone on the Executive board of a research company to even vaguely qualify for one. My program is losing 3/4 of our PhD's due to lack of funding (private and public). My best option actually appears to be to find another country to study to get my PhD, and thats just going to screw america in the end.

We are undervaluing a large amount of our education while overvaluing others. Its not just "go to school to get engineering or medical jobs", but simply going to university for a useless degree, or to run track is a waste of money. If you go to school to get that 60,000+ job its worth it, but to go for a degree and then end up at collections making less then 30,000 (less than your student loans as my ex was doing) your going to get screwed. This seems to be a culture where we openly lie to people to get things out of them, and thats not right.

Yes, we need to breed a bigger class of uneducated serfs. That way they will continue to believe that the Koch Bros. are looking out for them and won't raise hell when corporate tax rates are cut.

@RealAmericansFirst: Isn't it a little naive to imagine and assume that providing everyone with the opportunity for higher education will automatically lead them to hold precisely the same views as you?

Yes, we need to breed a bigger class of uneducated serfs

You want more educated idiots that can’t or don’t want to pay their loans? An education does not grant or gives rights to mental ability. Why would anyone take out a loan to go to college? If it's such a good deal why do so many complain about it? No one requires students to take loans. No, it’s not justifiable so don’t try.

i don't have any student loans and feel very blessed. i went to a state university and got a great education. i was a resident assistant, so my housing was free, this position also paid me a small amount, maybe 300 dollars per month. i also worked a second job as a waitress about 20 hours per week. my tuition and expenses were maybe, 10k per year. between some scholarships, my own work, and my parents contributing a few thousand dollars a year, i was able to make it through with no loans. im very thankful i went to the school i did.

im currently getting my master's degree, which is being paid for by my full time employer. i signed a contract saying i will continue working there for at least a year after i graduate. it IS possible.

i have friends in their mid to late twenties, who are still living at home with their parents because they have 600+ dollars a month in student loan payments on a private university, where they got an education no better than mine, their dorms were no better than mine, etc. unless you are going to an ivy or similar level school, private school isn't worth it. 45-55k per year for a BA is absurd. those types of loans definitely limit your financial opportunities once your graduate. getting a mortgage, being able to save, put money in a 401k, etc.

AP-1414066, you're an idiot. You're confusing people who graduate with people who enroll and people who are qualified to enroll. The reason we don't have enough doctors in this country is because the medical cartel limits the number of slots for new students in medical school and residency programs in order to keep doctors' pay high. There are plenty of Americans willing and able to become doctors. You want to send even more kids to undergrad then all you're going to be left with is a bunch of unemployed bio majors.

There are more than enough Americans with engineering degrees too. There's unemployed engineers all over the place even when the economy is running at full steam.

Something like 70% of high school graduates go on to college in an economy where 30% of jobs require a bachelors degree or higher. Only about half will eventually graduate, but that still means we're graduating more than we need.

Yes college grads have a lower unemployment rate than non-grads but that's not really a useful statistic. For one, it lumps all non-grads together. Highschool dropouts are non-grads and they're counted in there with some guy in the military (not likely to lose his job) or in the trades. And I'm willing to bet ex-cons make up a larger portion of the non-grad population than the college graduate population and we all know what their employment numbers look like. Next it ends up comparing really smart kids (who should absolutely go to college) with not very smart kids (who shouldn't). But of course really smart people are less likey to be unemployed than the stupid. That would be the case if everybody went to college or if nobody went at all. A useful comparison looks at the fates of kids that barely made it into college. Does just making it over that cutoff and going actually benefit them or not? Since most of these kids will eventually drop out I'm guessing not.

It's called 'slavery'...it's just in another form now which is now called 'debt.' Instead of people working in the fields, you are working in careers of your choice but still paying and working to pay off that indentured servitude.

On top of that, this debt, doesn't even exist. It's in computers and they can just make it up at random and then on top of that charge you interest % on it. Talk about a scam.

You don't have money. They can just magically give it to you. Then they charge you a % of money that didn't exist. Wouldn't it be great to just do that yourself without paying anything? This is basically the underlying thing many people are pissed off at the FED and banks for. This is why savings % is nothing...because the banks no longer have to borrow a real asset...they can just as the government to print or borrow more fake money.

The banks just don't want you to understand this.

Costs have risen due to sports, paying coaches and making new stadiums, new buildings, tenured professors and so on.

There are a lot of broke colleges and many are trying to file for a sort of bankruptcy that will allow them to fire all their tenure employees.

Yea I'm always very confused... why do colleges need sports teams that get more money then the classes?

All problems cited above are serious. But advocating a European system where only 'the cream of the crop' are sorted out for advanced studies is not the solution. An individual should be free for their life, to change their life. Many younger people who must commit to young families, or because of the economy, must work, and forget about school. Apprentice programs, or vocational certificates will help them, but not a university education. However, at any time in their lives (no one can predict each future), various reasons plus possibilities may exist for them to earn a higher degree. They should not be told "you were a goof in high school, so forget it". Nor should one feel that just because some colleges are spurious and some loan programs are scams, that they should give up on what could be a lifelong dream. At the very least, if one missed basic writing, communication and mathematics skills in high school, a couple of on line courses in these subjects are in order. And for those like myself who could not figure out what course of work they would be best in while in their '20's, you are wrong to 'shut the door' on us.

You're lucky. I'm one year in, 19 left to go! Please tell me it gets better.

only way to do it is double, triple, quadruple up on your monthly payments. I paid off $20,000.00 in 3 years this way...

If I was making enough money, I definitely would. Thanks for the advice, though. Hopefully I will get a better paying job to where I can actually start doing that.

Im in the same boat bellejournee. Ive had to use deferment because I dont make what I should be making. The lack of job competition is killing new graduates, unless their parents are well off and can pay for their school loans.

I agree, Pete! I've been out for almost 2 years now, and it took me a year to even get a job, which doesn't even pay enough for me to live on my own yet. I had started job-hunting immediately after I got out of school, and every employer told me that they wanted experience & not someone out of school. It was depressing and made that hunt difficult.

Good luck to you! :)

Doyourhomework...Try doubling up on your payments when you have children and a mortgage. Good luck with that.

I'm 15 years in and still have $18,000 to go. My husband is 20 years in and he's finally down to about $8,000. Our oldest goes off to college in 3 years. We'll pay the interest while he was in school, but he's on his own for the principal. We can't afford it, not with two other kids.

I'm trying to talk them out of college. There is no shame in being an electrician or a plumber. It's a good job and there will always be work. That's the problem nowadays. Our kids think if they're not driving a Mercedes within a year after high school (if their parents didn't buy them one for graduation) then they're worthless.

Note to recent grads: You might drive a nice car but you owe the government money first. You have a legal binding contract, and if you don't pay them, they WILL find you and make your life a living hell. So what if you have to drive an old clunker for five years (like we did) or *gasp* rent a sleazy apartment in a less than desirable part of town!

become a dealer or open a medical marijuana distribution office

Kristin, maybe you should have tried doubling up on your payments before you decided to have children and buy a house.

So you recommend that college graduates start their families when they're 40? Because that's how long it will take a lot of them to pay off their loans (if they're lucky).

What's the cost to raise a child with Down's Syndrome?

Our society has turned into Mr. Scrooge. At least in "A Christmas Carol" he saw the error of his ways. But that's obviously fiction.

I know right! I recently read an article trying to state that a couple making 250k a year is not rich by comparing an imaginary persons school loans with typical costs for someone in that tax braket. Well guess what, dont buy that million dollar house with huge mortgage payments, have a nanny/cleaning staff and 2 mercedes in the driveway then complain that they cant save for their childrens education because the govt wants to tax you more.

The problem is not the taxes. The problem is that the average income of the top 1/100th of a percent in America is $27 million per household.

The average household income for the bottom 90% is $31,244.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/02/income-inequality-in-america-chart-graph

http://assets.motherjones.com/politics/2011/inequality-p25_averagehouseholdincom.png

That's not enough to pay even the basic bills, much less save for college.

Our top tax rates are at their lowest levels since 1928, as are corporate taxes as a percentage of GDP. When we can't provide basic services like education, something needs to change.

http://assets.motherjones.com/politics/2011/inequality-taxrate_3.png

have your gets earn a ROTC scholarship, tuition, books and a monthly stipend.

Not everyone can go into the military. Anyone with a disability is out. And some people just aren't cut out for shooting other people.

Not even just a disability, but most diseases are out. I have an auto-immune, having refrigerated drugs on hand constantly, and no guarantee on physical ability to perform later is not what the army,navy, etc. want.

are you admitting that the Armed Forces discriminates?

Most officers (the O in ROTC) in the military aren't shooting anybody. There's a whole bureaucracy of program managers and analysts to keep the whole gigantic operation running and the officers end up doing a lot of that. Lots of powerpoint presentations. Its a lot like a corporation. Sure there's special ops guys and rangers or whatever so if you want to see a lot of combat or at least train to do the kind of stuff they make war movies about then that option is out there but its not a big part of the job in this relatively peaceful world for most officers. And the pay is a lot better today (at least compared to the stagnant pay in the private sector) than it was a decade ago. That's not to say that you won't ever shoot anybody and the military is probably not the best job for hippie types, but its not all Rambo either.

But as far as college goes its not like you have to go to make a decent living in this country. And you can always go to some junior college for a few years and then transfer or live at home, or go part time while you work. There's options and if its something you really want then you don't make excuses you just do it.

Also, what you spend on college and how you pay for it should have everything to do with the job you expect the degree to get you and nothing to do with how much money your parents or whoever are giving you to pay for it. Taking out a loan to enter a well paid in-demand profession is a good idea even if you have to borrow 100% of the cost. Spending $100K of your dad's money to slack off and drink for 4 years is a bad idea. Investments are valued based on their future returns not on how much money you have to invest in them and college is in every way an investment. Compare the sticker price of the college to the improvement in your future income. The loans don't even enter that comparison unless the interest rates are so far above inflation that they're usurious and college loans usually aren't.

to all of you who believe I'm calling for the "dumbing down of America":
my point was that a large percentage of kids in college are not at all there to learn. they graduate just as ignorant as when they first enrolled, just now they owe tens of thousands in debt that a lot of them have absolutely no intention of paying back. and former students like this are flooding the job market with their bullsh*t c- degrees, making the degrees of the rest of the college students who actually studied worthless.
so, once again, not all kids in the USA belong in college.
thanks, bg- you know what I'm talking about.
also, ap- don't you think the unemployment rate is high partially because so many "educated" college grads are waiting for a job in the ridiculously narrow sector they chose in school?
personally, I'd rather make $20,000 a year as a fast food manager than live at home with mommy and daddy, as an adult, waiting for that one in a thousand job to come through.
of course I'll catch sh*t for saying that because that's precisely what a lot of you posters are doing.
and before any of you comment, I'm not a fast food manager- luckily I learned a trade shortly after graduation.
now with my job as a union tradesman, I make at least 400% more than the majority of people who graduated with the same worthless degree I did.

Many do not need to spend all of the years getting a degree. Paradoxically, because some high schools are not teaching so well, then it benefits many to get some kind of formal education beyond high school. But if they really do not want to go to any more school, then go on and get in the work force. Just please spend some time on your own honing some reading and writing skills.

College works for you only because you got a degree in something that actually has a decent ROI. I work in finance, though I actually have a degree in physics, and most people I know had to problem paying off their debt. The problem comes when people borrow a ton of money to get idiot liberal arts degrees that they can't make any money with. Colleges do a terrible job at counseling students about this, but i guess its not in their interest to do that.

Hey bone-head. A good portion of this country is run by people with liberal arts degrees. Not every job is a business, technical or scientific one.

Hey bone-head. A good portion of this country is run by people with liberal arts degrees. Not every job is a business, technical or scientific one.

That might be why we're so much into debt. Most liberal art people I know are broke and can't keep their finances in order..so if they are running a lot of the country, then that explains a lot.

Liz, you are correct.

ISU didn't care that I wanted to be an architect major, even though they don't offer an architecture program. They just wanted my money, so of course they heavily encouraged me to enroll anyways. I became very tired of taking nothing but stupid general ed classes, and dropped out after 2-1/2 years. Unfortunately, even academia has largely become a con job.

Maybe someday when I don't have any student loan debt I'll finish it up somewhere else paying out of pocket as I go.

Believe it or not- most liberal art degrees teach you some very important underlying skills- mostly having to do with qualitative analysis. I work for a large multinational insurance company- and have a good position with a lot of upward mobility (potential) and an undergraduate degree in history and literature. A few years after working in the industry, I went on to get an MS in Risk Management- and I'll tell you, at least in my personal opinion- you don't need to be a great genius to get a business/finance degree, those who have them shouldn't be so quick to laugh at the value of an arts degree and liberal arts students need to be a little more open minded going into the field...if you understand what basic skills you picked up (say, a history major picked up the ability to read into details and write eloquently) its not hard to find a job in any field (with obvious exceptions...I'd assume that all doctors go to med school...)

I'd also add however, that my student loans would have been cheaper had I borrowed money from the mob...

As bad as my situation is, it would have been a lot worse if I had been able to get a BA in Architecture. Given the very pathetic state of the real estate market right now, which is likely to continue for the next 4-5 years from what I've been reading about, it's better that I didn't finish. I would have owed twice as much or more on student loans as I do now, and found it extraordinarily hard to even land a job at any firm right now.

This is the most frustruating thing in my life right now. I have no vehicle currently and am borrowing my father's truck, because I can't get a loan with less than 26% interest because of my student loans. I have tried to talk to the banks and explain - listen, can't you look at my student loans as a good thing? I am trying to better myself by going to school, but keep getting held back in all other areas because of it.

If I had it to do over, I never would have went to ITT Tech! Worst idea ever! They rob you blind and somehow try to make you feel like your doing a good thing. I borrowed about $50,000 for as Associates degree and already have $35,000 interest on top of that - and I'm not finished with my bachelor's degree yet!

I am the first person in my family to go to college so I had no guidance about this subject and when I got offered the chance to go to school, I had no choice but to take out loans. I have no family that can help me out, although Sallie Mae seems to think it's so easy to borrow thousands of dollars from your friends and family to make your payments - what planet are they on?

This is my debt, not my friends and families burden - my own. I am not getting them into the middle of this mess, but it's disheartening that there are no "help" programs for students stuck in the same boat. We can never file bankruptcy, but someone that owes the government or anyone else money for anything can file bankruptcy and be done with it - not a fair way to treat the people who actually try and better themselves so they don't have to work 2-3 jobs, never be able to have a retirement account or just plain never be able to retire. But someone can get out of paying child support payments by filing bankruptcy. Kind of a backwards system if you ask me. To hold down the ones that try to do better, but the scumballs just get away with it scott free. They probably are more willing to work with them on payment terms than Sallie Mae is with us too.

They offered me an "interest only" payment of $895/month. Interest only - great so I will never actually pay off any of the principal balance - sounds exciting! And they aren't willing to take partial payments either. I told them what I could actually afford and they literally laughed at me and said it would take me close to a year to pay off what they want for 1 months payment. I don't know what I am ever going to do to get out of this mess. Hopefully I hit that lottery soon, cause they will be the first ones I pay off, that's for sure!

Liz, I definitely think you're on to something here. I'm a fellow physics major, so I'm guessing we had similar experiences watching the liberal arts majors go off to party or do activities with student clubs while we stayed in to do homework. I don't say this out of any bitterness towards liberal arts majors, but just to highlight an important point: liberal arts degrees teach soft skills. There's a reason I get paid to do my physics PhD, whereas a PhD student in psychology has to pay his or her way through school. Physics, chemistry, biology, engineering, etc. are the sorts of things that you can only learn through intense study, and they directly apply to industrial applications. There are employers out there who need people to do physics for them. I can't remember the last time I saw an employer asking for the services of a sociology major, or saying that they needed to consult someone with a bachelor's degree in art history. I'm sure these jobs exist, but in far smaller quantities than the number people with relevant majors.

Yes, I'm sure you can get a job with a liberal arts degree. But my guess is that most people who do are able to obtain such opportunities because they are intelligent, not because they have the degree. Any reasonable major in college will teach you some critical thinking skills. But why not use your four years and $40,000 loan to get a degree that will impart some valuable and employable skill to you? Engineering teaches the same critical thinking as women's studies. Maybe you won't enjoy your time in college quite so much, but I think it beats unemployment by a long shot. I know that current college applicants may want to study some subject they're passionate about. But do you really want to pay a small fortune for the opportunity to read Plato when you could be getting a degree that will lead to a job? You can always read the liberal arts stuff on your own time, and at virtually no cost.

The cost of a college education can be kept lower by attending community college for the first two years of getting your general education and then transferring to a state four year school to finish. This keeps costs lower. Too many kids think they need to go to the most expensive, prestigious school out there to be successful and that's just not true. Also be very wary of private for profit schools. Too many do not have the proper accreditation and your degree will not transfer. An associates degree should not cost twenty or thirty thousand dollars.

I think a lot of college has to do with learning to interact with people and social networking. Aside from the sciences and a few specialty business degrees such as Accounting, the graduates that do well do so because they made the right connections while in college. (of course, this only gives them their start...then they have to actually produce)

Society needs liberal arts majors, physics majors, oceanography majors, and every other major. When you start pushing every kid into the degrees that pay the most, you end up with a population with a lopsided skill set and an oversupply of applicants in a narrow career segment.

Educating your workforce is the best investment in the future of your country. But America seems to run on a 6-month business outlook. Then we can't understand why we keep falling behind. Are we going to be smart or last?

Arun, like you I have no issue with liberal arts degrees. In fact, I actually have 2 degrees and one is in music; I'm just saying that in my experience liberal arts degrees aren't worth as much financially. Not that we don't need people like that, as one name calling idiot (AP-that would be you) just that they aren't necessarily worth a lot of money in student loans. And escaped2010, I'm glad things worked out for you. I work in insurance and I can tell you that few people with liberal arts degrees are hired here; it was really a fluke that they picked me up as they were really looking for finance and accounting degrees, but my boss had a string of failures in my position and said that he thought someone with a physics degree might have problem solving skills the others didn't. Apparently that was correct because after 5 failures I'm the first success in this spot, so I'm told anyway. You're right about the mob though :)

The guideline that needs to be pushed is don't borrow more than half of your realistic first year starting salary.

I'm recalling an article about someone graduating with a degree in gender studies and being $60k in debt. Job satisfaction and doing work that "calls to you" is important, but parents and the student need to think about the ROI.

Community colleges are great for saving money. Unfortunately, when you hit the main university campus, you can plan on encountering a couple of snobs who will look down at you for attending a community college. Just savor the thought that you will most likely be able to pay off your student loans quicker than most.

The other thing that gets missed, after about 5 years of on the job experience, it really doesn't matter where you went to school. What matters in the long run is what you can do with your education to deliver results for your employer.

To the OP, nobody tops out in their twenties no matter what route they choose to go in life. Even if you work at McDonalds you can always enter their manager training program at some point. Don't think that everyone who doesn't go to college is throwing their life away because it doesn't work like that. And don't think that everyone that doesn't go to college at 18 will never get a degree because it doesn't work like that either.

@Arun "There are employers out there who need people to do physics for them."

Me and my coworkers had a good laugh at that. Honestly I can think of no more useless a bachelors degree than the hard sciences - Physics and Bio in particular. If you want to get a PhD in physics then you'll do alright but a BS in physics is nothing but a ticket to graduate school (and often we're talking graduate school in engineering not physics). Nobody hires physics majors unless they want to teach but then they have to go back and take some education courses and get a teaching cert. I guess its more useful than liberal arts and going to grad school in the hard sciences (except bio) will eventually land you a decent job but its also a lot harder degree to get than some humanities degree.

jrschw: The guideline of not borrowing more than half of your realistic first year starting salary is practical for many people, but not for others. For example, as a medical student, I will graduate with a debt of ~$300,000, before interest. 1st year residents typically make between $35,000 - 50,000/year depending on specialty and region of the country. Family Practice physicians, which we are sorely short on in the US, typically make less than $200,000/year once they are done with their residency. Unless going into some of the higher paying specialties, most physicians first year salaries, post residency, are less than their student loan debt.

That said, I tend to agree with your overall post above (3.14)

bg - the good thing about bio, physics, chemistry, etc. - if you go on to get your PhD - the school pays for it (usually). Of course, the school owns the research you do, and you have to TA, do a lot of research, etc., etc. I have a Biology w/ an emphasis in Health Sciences for my BS, and am now in medical school. Everyone I went to school with that was a Biology, Chemistry, or Physics major ALL were planning on either going to professional school (Med School, Pharm School, Dental or Vet School, mostly) or onto PhD programs. Well, I also went to an undergrad school that has a really good acceptance rate for going to professional school or grad school (all of us got into our programs the first application cycle we went through).

Basically, most people that get and undergrad degree in the hard sciences realize that they need to go on if they want to do more than lab technician - and most plan on going beyond undergrad levels.

Another good point about community colleges is the grade point average does not transfer. So a person having trouble in any subject can spend some time to work on it, which may be well worth it.

RealAmericansFirst, that is happening because America now competes with the third world and the opened-up second world. Not that universities do not exist at all in poorer parts of the world, and those who can attend often face steeper curriculums than in America-and learn more in the long run. But most of those citizens do not have an education, and in general, that is where the competition lies at this point in history.

Summer,

The problem is that whether or not you move on is not entirely of your own control. For instance, there's lots of bio majors out there that plan to go to medical school or dental school from the getgo. But only about half of the people who apply to medical school end up getting in. This leaves a lot of unemployed bio majors with few options. Many then go to grad school in biology or something related and others go into teaching but either way their original plan is disrupted.

I don't mean to say degrees in the hard sciences are worthless, just that they're not that much better than liberal arts. I mean sure, you can say you planned to go to grad school or whatever all along but do you not think liberal arts majors plan to do some kind of graduate school? Its not like they have no options. In addition to graduate study in the humanities (a total racket imho) they can go to law school or for an MBA. They can even go to medical school or dental school with a liberal arts degree if they'd have had the foresight to take all the scientific prerequisites as electives.

Also, the original post stated that there are employers willing to pay people to "do physics" for them. Unless you have a PhD or a teaching certificate then the job market for people who want to "do physics" is pretty sparse.

bg - I understand what you're saying. I'm simply saying that those that get hard science degrees tend to go on for additional education. Sure a lot may not get into medical, dental, vet or pharm school - but that doesn't mean they don't pursue additional education. Often they enter a masters or PhD program. Like I said before, I have a bio undergrad degree - of everyone that I went to undergrad with that were also bio majors there were only 3 that didn't go onto graduate school, medical school, pharm school, vet school or dental school. Of those three 1 of them got a teaching certificate and became a high school biology teacher, another was offered a job in a major research lab earning over $90,000 to start, and the last went to work for the Forrest Service (he was a bio-conservation major and was a wild-fire firefighter).

Now, admittedly, maybe I have a very skewed view of this major because I went to an undergraduate science program that is notorious for having exceedingly high acceptance rates for graduate and professional schools. The year I graduated had a 100% 1st attempt acceptance rate. Just an example, but there is an iGem team where I go to undergrad - this is a synthetic biology project. In this project we worked on building "biobricks" of genetically modified components that can be inserted and stacked together to genetically modify an organism. The biobricks are put into a library that can be accessed by other undergrad facilities. Currently, the project is in it's infancy - so it's pretty much with E.Coli only. We made E.Coli glow in response to various stimuli, gave the E.Coli the stimuli in a manner that caused it to turn on or off in a particular pattern - essentially we set it up to solve the classic "burnt pancake" math problem. This project beat out teams from Harvard, MIT, Yale, etc. Outside of this, several of us (including myself), have published research even though we were undergrads. So, yeah, maybe I'm a bit biased when it comes to this because everyone I've worked with that were bio, chemistry, etc. for the most part did go on to get further education.

Of course liberal arts degrees can go onto grad school - I never said they don't. The point I was making is that most people get a bio degree with the understanding that they need to go on further and, from my experience, they are more likely to go on to further education than someone that gets a liberal arts degree.

You are right - someone isn't going to "do physics" without a degree beyond a BS.

Ouch, that hurts. :( Do you know of legit companies that will consolidate and not end up screwing you in the end? I'm looking for such a thing right now.

You can consolidate with the Department of Education. That's what I did. Low interest rate, they aren't sharks, and they'll work with you if you get laid off or just have a bad month and have to be late with a payment. I highly recommend it.

Thank you, hwilson!!

No problem! =)

I took out a loan that started at 3600.00 for a 1st class FCC ticket (to be able to work in commercial transmitters, radio,TV, ETC) the school went under half way through the course, re-opened 6 months later same people different mane and did not accept the old students back. I ended up with garnished and offset taxes till it was paid off. NO RECOURSE ON THE DEFUNCT SCHOOL, NO 1ST CLASS TICKET, NO TRANSFER OF CREDITS, and I did not make any real money till I joined teamsters and started driving a truck. I'm now semi retired, got to be a certified chef thru on the job training, and now have a small computer support and repair business at home. So much for college and technical schools. I ended paying back about 4 times what I borrowed.

That's what I was going to say H. Wilson.

If you got your loans through the Federal Department of Education (Direct Loans), they can consolidate your loans into one low interest payment plan. You'd be stupid to use a private company for that.

I consolidated through Direct Loans as well. Don't expect it to be totally quick and easy, they are federal after all. But eventually it works out. If you do have to call and figure something out, I've always had someone totally understanding on the other end of the line.

plus, not to bring politics into it, but when I was in college, the only student loans were from the government. this was in the era just before they allowed any college kid to foolishly borrow way more money than they could ever pay back. luckily, recently they're trying to return to this, so we don't have to keep bailing out all these loan companies.

The other decent thing about the Direct Loans system is that if you fall on hard times, they usually will grant you a 6 month deferment so you have some time to get back on your feet.

Yeah. I took my parents' advice to heart: "Once you get your first job, prospective employers don't give a flying **** where you graduate. Go somewhere with a decent program, but don't mortgage your life."

You assume, then, that you can get into the career field you want by staying in state. Not all universities offer all degree programs. Not to mention, especially when you go into science fields, it DOES matter which univ. you attend - the reputation of that degree program will precede it.

While in theory, you are correct regarding quite a lot of career fields, your statements do not apply to all areas. And we need more people going into science and engineering.

You are absolutely right! Consider going to a community college for the first 2 years as well. CCs are generally committed to getting you through your classes and they usually have agreements with state schools for transfer priority. Get the Associates as it bundles your credits into a degree that doesn't expire (as fast). (Learned that one the hard way!)

Also, something to consider for new students. Get a certificate in something that gets you employed first, then let your employer help pay for your education. I know a gal who first became a phlebotomist (vampire at a hospital), then moved up to med tech, now is taking nursing classes. Her first job was at a hospital working night shift drawing blood and they paid a percentage of her tuition for a related field. Another example is one of the guys who was on the crew remodeling my house. He's working his way through school for Civil Engineering by doing carpentry and light plumbing work. Both these people picked "starter" jobs that give them experience for the job they hope to get with their degrees. If you were hiring a new college grad, wouldn't you want to pick them instead of someone with no experience?

You're right, KyEngineer, I was too general with my statement. Some career fields DO care more about where you went than what you've done. That's something students need to find out before they take the plunge.

SEBlake:

While I understand that you advice about having your employer give you tuition assistance sounds good on paper, I would really caution people against taking that route. Why? Having witnessed the aftermath when I was working for Chase years ago, every company has "fine print" disclosures.

For example, Chase's policy had a 3 year clause on all aid. If you quit the company, or if they let you go (through down sizing and direct firing for job problems), then you would be required to retroactively pay ALL tuition reimbursement made by Chase within the past 3 years. My own manager was unhappy in her job and was let go by Chase for not being aggressive enough. As a result, she instantly owned a mountain of money (since they were matching people dollar for dollar) and became unemployed all at the same time.

Tuition reimbursement can be a positive thing. Yet considering how many times people change employers, let alone careers, the whole subject of reimbursement has a lot of hidden catches. And if your corporate company (which are the usual candidates for reimbursement) ever down sizes and lets you go, then you could be in a world of trouble.

Wiser, thanks. All very good comments and employees should read the fine print before signing up for Tuition Assistance. Firestone also had a similar clause, and for that reason, I skipped a couple of semesters of Tuition Assistance because I was considering jumping ship. But I was also only taking 1 Grad class at a time.

Before that, I took from 1979 - 1996 to get my Bachelors in Engineering. There was an 9 year break for military service and a 3 year interruption when my husband was stationed in Europe. Illinois Veteran's grant paid for my tuition and fees and a 9k loan paid my living expenses for 2 years while I was "geographically separated" from my husband. (He was stationed in OK, I went to school in IL.) I learned during my bachelors that credits expire and general education requirements increase. I got my associates before we took off for Italy so I wouldn't have to repeat classes when I got back.

One big thing that I noticed from 1979 to 1994 was the number of students who required remediation in English and Math increased significantly. In fact, in 1979, only 1 English class was required, now the same school requires 2 just to get students to the same writing level. That's one more class to pay for because too many high school students are coming in without the ability to write a paragraph that makes sense.

unfortunately we are more "kid centric" these days. And parents feel bad if they can't give kids what others have. So, off to school at expensive locations with them.

I was somewhat lucky and had a good state university near by, and worked summers and vacations, and didn't "dorm up". In retrospect good decisions, but honestly lucky ones.

First thing I notice here is that there are a lot of posters that went through the non-traditional school route and got burned. I got my BS in Mathematics at a local community college and got my MS in Software Engineering from our largest in-state university. In both cases, I felt that I got a very good education. The biggest thing I learned though was to have initiative to go beyond what was being taught in the classroom and challenge your professors. Too many students now, I include my kids into this group, think that it is up to the teacher to teach you, they are not, they are guides. You have to educate yourselves, it's hard work and it won't be given to you. These for-profit online schools will give you a degree for a price, but you don't learn anything of any use to an employer.

While in theory, you are correct regarding quite a lot of career fields, your statements do not apply to all areas. And we need more people going into science and engineering.

True, some specialized fields may require you to leave the state, although quite often you can still find a reasonable rate in a neighbor state if they participate in a regional program.

I grew up in the northwest and the state schools had a program where you got in state tuition at any of them, so I could have gone to Montana, Idaho, Washington, Alaska, and I think Oregon and paid in state tuition. I'm now in the northeast and they do something similar but not as good. You get a cut in fees, but not all the way to the in state rates.

For Engineering though, most states should cover nearly all programs (I'm sure there are some obscure or rare specialties that could be harder to find).

Obviously staying in-state is cheaper but I think out-of-state can be a good move (albeit a more expensive one) in certain situations.

Going out of state allows you to live in a part of the country that you may have always wanted to live in but you still get lots of vacation to come home pretty often so you won't get homesick. Also, lots of employers will only hire from local schools so going to school in the place you eventually want to live will help you get a job there.

Also, some out of state public schools are well known in certain fields and that can be beneficial if you don't get into the top public school in your state. I definitely wouldn't pay out of state prices to go to some second tier school but if you don't get into your state's flagship school but you do get into an out of state one then that will improve your college experience and probably your job prospects.

Additionally the degree on your resume matters every time you change jobs. School was the only time you and a few hundred other folks with similar qualifications were ever asked to do the exact same thing and have their results measured - so its an overall mark of quality. Your GPA and school are what they are whereas you can always hype yourself on a resume. If you're going to work somewhere for your whole career then once you get your first job you can pretty much forget about where you went to school because it won't mean much again unless you're talking about a very competitive internal promotion and even then it probably won't matter. But don't count on working somewhere your whole career.

Now, all that said, if you don't get any scholarships then paying 3x as much money to go out of state is a ripoff. It was one thing to do that 20 years ago when tuition was a lot lower but out of state tuition is like $100K+ for a bachelors degree these days and that's not worth it in any field. Though its still cheaper than going private I guess.

First Congratulation,

A piece of advice on what to do now that you have your MD. Be like my sister and don't buy into the whole "Doctor" image thing. Don't buy the new BMW, big house, etc. during your internship or residency. Go for the "cheap" singles apartment and "beater" car, or Masstransit, and pour everything into paying off the loans with extra principle payments. You will be amazed at how fast they disappear. Then you can really enjoy the fruits of your labor without that millstone around your neck.

Hey, Ismail, hang in there. Good to know hard work and ideals still can be found out there...and we sure do need more doctors.

You're a hero, Ismail, for accomplishing all that you have. Hang in there, because I think you'll be a good doctor with that much drive and intelligence.

Congratulations, Ismail! What a wonderful achievement! The first advice is good advice--an old Toyota gets you to the hospital the same as the new BMW. Pay off your loans and start investing in yourself, by purchasing things that last, like real estate. Then, you can retire at an age to enjoy what you have built, or can have the ability to practice the kind of medicine you really want to practice.

Congratulations on your MD! That's a ton of hard work.

The first poster is correct; you don't need a fancy car, a big house or all the other "things" that most people associate with a doctor.

But here is where I'll differ with them just a bit. What you DO need is a vacation. You don't have to add to your debt load, but you do need a few weeks to center yourself. To be a good doctor, don't forget not to become a patient!

Take care and again, congrats!

become an exotic dancer they make a killing and it is all cash, just stay away from the drugs. The Dollhouse in Myrtle Beach is packed in the spring with golfers.

Ismail, I'm sure you'll make a fine doctor.

Only 11 years? What are you, Doogie Howser? And $200K is nothing when you consider the median GP salary is like $180K/yr. Go ahead and buy that BMW. A membership in the medical cartel has its privilages in this country.

Let's compare Palin to you. Who are you?

You don't need brains to make good money..look at Palin.

You might not like her politics (niether do I), but she didn't get where she is today without being smart. She is rolling in more cash every month then you most likely see in a year which makes you mad and jealous.

who said anything about brains....we are talking about schooling which is as much a function of disciple and trying as "brains".

Not so much jealous as disappointed. It doesn't take too much intelligence to be a prostitute any mor ethan it takes to be a media whore either. The fact that anyone would even listen or reward her for saying some of the idiotic things that she says is a testament to the state of education in our country anyway. She is nothing more than a hollow beauty queen dressed up as a political pundit with dreams of grandeur shoved in her tiny little brain.

I'll take my 18 years of military service and Bachelors achieved along the way over her useless existence of contributing little and likely costing all of us much more. But we should all look at people such as her from both sides and realize that they do nothing for the country and just continue to take, take, take.

When our country starts idolizing people like Palin just because she's "rolling in cash", we have seriously fallen off the rails.

Anyone who rallies for her need only look at her commitment to college and to her part time half term Governor job to realize that she is a prime example of why standards in our country have fallen dramatically. When one is elected to serve their constituents and quits half way through in order to make truckloads of cash, that doesn't bode well for their level of integrity and honor. I believe that she should go back to the Alaskan wilderness, but even Alaska doesn't want her back. Her level of hypocrisy is enormous and her desire to remain in the media is even more rabid.

HonestIndy, you don't have to be smart to capitalize on your position in life which is pretty much what she did. I mean she's not retarded or anything but there's nothing in her background to indicate she's anything but of below average inteligence.

I think a lot of the problem with students that don't care is that their parents are paying. It's a lot easier to care when it's your money on the line. Maybe instead of fronting a college education, the parents should hold the money back and pay the loans when their child graduates, if they are so determined to help out their kid.

That way, if the kid drops out, the parents can go take a vacation in Aruba or something. No wasted money. :p

hiwilson,

I like your proposal, but the problem is that its really hard to pay for your education without someone's help. If your parents make too much, FAFSA expects them to help you, so they wont give you aid. And if you go to a bank, they want a co-signer. If you can't find a co-signer, you are pretty much screwed.

Could join the military though, but that whole free college thing isn't solid. They do not have to give it to you, contrary to what they tell you, and it caps out at a certain amount.

Even if your parents make too much money, FAFSA will give you aid. It just changes from grants to unsubsidized loans. The interest rate is still way better than what you'll get going directly to a big bank.

To protect yourself if you co-sign for your student's loans, please take out an insurance policy on your kid. It's grim to think about, but if anything catastrophic happens before those loans are paid off, they can devastate your finances. It's cheap protection for your financial future.

hwilson, you are so right about kids not being connected to the cost of their education. Mine are going to have to work hard to get their degrees, but I will help them when I can (some $$ saved in education accounts, but not nearly enough). I know they will understand the cost/benefit of their degrees.

lebban,

You're ignorant or misinformed in so many ways. First, if your parents aren't going to help pay for your college, then you as an 18 year old adult have the right to deny them the privilege of claiming your tax deduction and filing as an independent. Then all FAFSA paperwork is based solely on YOUR income, not your parents. Of course that means you need to plan ahead or take a year off, to get your own tax return, but is worth it.

Second, if you now have job and income, you don't need a co-signer, and if they give you BS about it, casually inquire if this doesn't violate the "Fairness in Lending Act" and that you will need to consult with your attorney.

As for the military not paying, if you put in your part of GI Bill requirements and receive an Honorable discharge, ( if you don't get an Honorable discharge you screwed up big time), then they pay out the amounts proscribe by the program. You know all that up front. Are there limits? Yes. You can't be a "professional student" or "flunk out", just like most other aid programs.

Mark,

There is nothing wrong with "Partying hard" as long as you also study hard, and are mature enough to know the right time to do both. But your right, Snooki is such a wonderful role-model for our kids. Foul-mouthed, ignorant, drunken, narcissistic, slut. Just what I would hope for my daughter. NOT!

htdjpf,

I knew a lot of people who got general under honorable simply because they pissed of their Commander... you do not need to screw up big time. Especially right now when they are kicking soldiers out left and right.

And I just filled out FAFSA, Im independent, so I didnt need to put any of my parents information, but thats because I'm married. If you are not around 23, or married, or have a kid... you have to give them your parents information. My younger brother is 18 and cant get federal aid because my parents make too much money, but they can't pay for his college because they are so in debt... So hes pretty much screwed.

htdjpf - your information is out of date. If you are under age 24, FAFSA requires your parents' financial information unless you are married.

Things have changed, folks. Young people today aren't getting the same deal that you got when you went to college.

It's scary to think of how the huge debt load of this generation is going to play out in our economy down the road. Can't buy cars. Can't buy houses. Can't have kids.

Is America still the greatest nation on earth? If so, this is no way to run it, or we won't be for much longer.

America is the greatest nation on earth is propaganda that is instilled in us from kindergarden. Every year more and more studies are showing that there are plenty of other countries with longer life expectancy, better healthcare, better schools and just as many, if not more freedom.

Also... better immigration policies

I'm not sure what country you live in, but the one I live in has plenty of doctors, scientists, teachers and artists...the education is costly (I currently owe just over $60,000) but its doable, especially for someone who is intelligent and motivated. It does seem unfair to a lot of people that they spend tens of thousands on a degree that allows them to get a job for less than 50k a year (think teachers), but most knew up front the sacrifice they were making for the priviledge of serving their community.

The reality is that most people I know have to enter the work force without ever having set foot in a college and then work their way through as adult learners after having started a family. Community college is another way to get a start with cheaper tuition and then transfer in to a 4 year University. That's how I did it (nurse), my sister did it (psychologist), her husband did it (special ed teacher), my mother did it (nurse), my best friend did it (accountant), and many many other people I know (teachers, nurses, artists, doctors, scientists, mechanics, middle management, and many more). Of course I know many who did not attend college, or stopped at an associates technical degree. That's ok too. the point is, the option is there, it just doesn't look like the classic 1950's education map - graduate from highschool and go straight to a four year university. that happens less and less often now, unless your parents can and are willing to help. Many highschool grads aren't ready for college and need a couple of years to realize who they are and what they want to do when they grow up. Lucky for us, we live in Washington State, where there is a community college within a stone's throw of most of the population, and the Public University system is excellent and growing.

It is disappointing to learn that out of the 30,000 new freshman at the University of Washington this year a larger proportion of them will be from out of state or foreign, a whole 150 more this year! Why, that's a whole 0.5%! If the U needs the extra cash to maintain its infrastructure, including an world renouned teaching hospital and medical school, research facilities that have provided scientific breakthroughs and created a legacy of scientific inquiry, that most middle class families CAN afford, then I think the sacrifice is worth it. There are 4 other state schools in the system that will also provide a quality education and admit thousands of students each year.

Stacey,

I'm not sure what country you live in, because in America:

"Graduates of foreign medical schools now make up a quarter of all the practicing doctors in the United States. ...About one-fifth of the foreign-trained doctors in the United States are Americans who studied abroad, often at medical schools in the Caribbean. Most foreign-born doctors in the United States come from India or Pakistan and initially studied medicine in those countries."

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/03/health/03doctors.html;

Yeah, there aren't plenty of doctors in this country but its not because kids don't want to go into medicine. The AMA restricts the expansion of medical schools and makes getting in very difficult in order to keep physician salaries high. That's why so many Americans go to medical school in the caribbean. Its much easier to build or expand medical schools in other countries than it is here.

The limits on nursing classes in socal city colleges are now so counter-productive, and proof that policy makers are being paid too much. These class sizes should have been bumped up years ago.

I agree, they missed my range...

I started with about 54k.. slowly payign it down, but luckily consolidated with really low interest rate, so way less than our mortgage, so we'll be paying on it for a long time, since there isn't alot of incentive to go faster right now. But i'm lucky with that interest rate, and managed to get a good paying job, so that helps too.

I agree. I owe $42k. There's no legitimate answer for me... 0_o

Good point! I paid my way through college working part time in retail. There is no way a part time job can pay for a college education anymore.

I worked through college and it hardly made a dent in my school loans. My tuition went up twice in my four years there too which was completely ridiculous.

My school loans are basically making it impossible for me to save any money. Between rent, utilities, and my school loans, I have $200 every two weeks as spending money for gas, groceries, and whatever else. $400 a month is NOTHING when I average $100 in gas and $150 in groceries every 2 weeks. My car is still under my parents name/insurance because I wouldn't be able to afford it even if i wanted to.

It's a very confusing time right now. There are a million jobs you can't get without a degree, but right now your degree isn't as important as experience, but you can't get experience without getting hired. My boyfriend dropped out after his first semester of college and now he's a personal trainer, he makes double of what I make and I'm a Magna Cum Laude graduate working at an entry level position at an advertising firm.

And the only reason I got this job is because I was forced to work full time in retail getting paid $600 biweekly and offered/begged to work here for FREE on my days off. Thankfully the free internship turned into a full time position, but it only pays slightly more than retail. So BEFORE I could delay my loans since I was considered an "economic hardship" candidate...but since I make $200 more a week now....I have to pay the $350 a month in school loans.

I would never trade this job for anything and I am extremely grateful to be where I am, but I also know it's because I busted my ass and worked 10 hour days, 5 days a week at a shoe store, and then worked 8 hours two days a week here to get hired. I am one of the only people I know who got a job in my major so that's huge, but it's still a struggle, and I'm $40,000 in debt. I know the large salary will come in time but I HARDLY think picking the private school with the best Communication program was worth it....

I'm so glad someone finally brought this up. I worked full-time through graduate school and was barely able to cover my rent and bills let alone any tuition. I dont even have benefits, sick time, or vacation time and I graduated with my master's degree a year ago! I worked for the same company throughout graduate school.

I have been looking for a new job since before graduation and have not gotten anywhere. I revamp my resume every few months hoping that this time around it will work. But, still nothing. I can only just keep applying and keep hoping. I pursued this degree because I have a passion for it, I hope that one day I'll actually get to use it.

phoenix,

I sold mine to the Navy for 6 to pay for my BA/MS and I got IT Hardware training to boot. Got to see the "garden spots" of the world, like Persian Gulf, Kuwait, Iraq, Somalia, Bosnia, Haiti, etc. But such was life in the Gator. Can't say it was "fun", but was very educational in a way "school" never can be.

I have to agree that many 18 year olds would benefit from a few years in the military before heading to collage, beside those of the GI Bill, tuition assistance and those "free" college courses. Sharing a dorm room with just one other person would seem down right private. Think of the money you can save if you don't have to pay for rent, food, or cloths. Not that I would expect the average 18 year old kid to have that kind of financial discipline.

I think the military (or alternative civil service) should be offered to all young people in return for post-secondary education. There are plenty of things that need doing and those 18 year olds would be much better prepared as 22 year olds (and appreciate it more).

Additionally, if people already carrying debt could volunteer and have the debt paid -- it would be equally as rewarding and good for them and the country; especially if they are doctors, nurses, teachers, etc.

Beth, it is offered as you mentioned. I attended college at 30 years old with many students 18-19 who had just graduated H.S. and wanted to offer their services to the Armed Services in exchange for their college costs being covered. It was a 4 year degree in exchange for 5 years of military service. The biggest problem is that most young people don't want to be in the military. They are so absorbed by the BS of Jersey Shore and other celebrity garbage that they don't want to be "bothered" with contributing to a greater cause or sacrificing some of their party time for a higher cause. I think that 2 years of service should be mandatory, as it would help many mature and realize that life is not all beer pong and all night drinking binges. My 18 years of service (13 enlisted and 5 as an officer) coupled with the NAVY providing the opportunity to achieve my Bachelors and Masters degree at the governments expense showed me that my contributions and service were appreciated and rewarded.

If more 18-22 year olds would put down the bongs and start to realize that nothing in life is free, perhaps they would see that without a serious commitment, no one ever realizes their true potential.

Actually, it's only offered in the military. I did it too. Unfortunately, I'm old enough that I qualified for the WORST GI Bill in history, so I also had to accumulate some small debt -- but nothing horrendous.

But the military is NOT for everyone and there is no viable civil service alternative at this time. The military is NOT offered to ALL young people who want the opportunity. There are height, weight, and other physical restrictions. There are restrictions if you have not had a "stellar" childhood.

Also, unless it is changed, the GI Bill does not cover non-college post-secondary education (I could be wrong on the new one).

So, Chris, while I agree with you to a point, not fully. And, btw, not ALL college kids are having beer pong parties, etc.

Shaw,

You mean someone else paid for your education. Make sure you write a thank you to each taxpayer of the nation in the country you attended.

Nothing is "free", you simply figured out a way to pass the bill to someone else.

Exactly. Someone clearly didn't major in economics. Taxpayers paid for that "free" education. But overseas colleges are a good deal for some majors compared to prices in the US.

Yea... but I doubt he ran back over to america without any business ties over here to jump at the chance to be in the unemployment line. Let's face it, other countries treat education higher, and therefore get the better students, those students stick around and contribute to taxes and a better economic climate (I don't see how that country is losing...). There are a large group of people in america who also don't even value the educated. I see frequent claims that brains don't equal degree's, and that holds true for a lot of people, but to sit here and say "I'd rather have someone with an associates treat my disease over a doctor" is insane (yet thats what a lot of people are saying, experience is AMAZING to have, but working to assemble computers for 15 years does not make you a computer engineer)

Simply put, the first thing that goes in budget battles is grants. The massive restructuring of public education, and a push to make it private (it works so well for those for-profit-colleges that are causing so much heartache), and the general hate of people with degrees will destroy our median education level. College isn't for everyone, far from it, but we can't cut off everyones ability to go and destroy them if they do all preventing them from going further, just because we think all college students are lazy pot heads. Those countries who value their education are soaring ahead of us and there's a really good reason why...

Hugin and Munin - the h.m.o's are trying to jip their systems down to where someone with an associate's degree could take the place of a doctor.

And will get worse with every repub governor and their mother slashing state subsidies to state colleges. Think an education is unaffordable now - wait a year.

So you didn't figure that out before you agreed to take the loan? Sounds like someone who does not understand how loans and interest on loans work.

Even if your majoring in accounting, you probably can't get one up on the guys who have been screwing people for 20+ years and already have their degree. People shouldn't agree to stupid things, but thats like saying no-one should have access to an attorney, just sign things willy nilly, and if they make a mistake its their fault.

Most trade school boast a 90%+ placement rate - what they dont tell you is that you need to be willing to accept a minimum wage job. If you dont accept it - you dont count against their placement rate.

I have soooo many friends who have attended these, and I can only think of one of them who has a job. Out of about the 12 that I know, and her job is secretarial. Those schools are such rip offs. I'm not going to harvard, but I am going to a junior college that is not for profit. I really feel like people need to pay attention to where they are getting their education and in what field to avoid this massive amount of debt.

Look at how many commercials for trade "colleges" They give a terrible education while promising GREAT JOB placement. AND now they can do it in there PJ's using a computer from home.

I have a job where I'm off the occasional weekday. If you are watching TV -- commercials are SOLID for either these type of schools, or lawyers to get disability. It's OBVIOUS the market for these places!

It depends on the trade school and the person.

My late husband went took night courses at a trade school, where he eventually received his electronics degree. He stayed with the company he was placed with for several years (including a transfer to Arizona) and then eventually started his own business fixing diagnostic machines and air conditioning recovery units (a great business to have in Arizona).

I believe that it is a matter of making the most of your trade, finding the out of the way job that one does not usually think about, opposed to the job skills that are saturated.

yea, the big jump comes from the fact we don't help out the higher education. I'm in the same boat, yet my grants are getting pulled out from under me due to budget issues (public and private). A lot of my fellow classmates are in the same straits. We are losing 90% of our PhD students in the next year, and I can only think of a handful that are graduating.

I am sorry to hear about this. Especially because I sometimes think that some budget problems are just from poor management, not from an actual economic situation. However, as a country, we must do everything necessary to keep the children in school first. So, if necessary, cuts must: start at the top.

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Holy Smokes

Those numbers are why my kid decided to become a physician's assistant rather than a doctor. She has 2 more years in her undergrad degree, and we don't know where she'll land for her master's degree so we don't know what the end cost will be, but it will be substantially less than the numbers you're facing Summer.

Good luck to you - we need more medical professionals!

I would like to be a stay at home dad. I will help you, but you must sign a prenup because I do not want to be left when you start making the big bucks in your medical practice.

And this is why more and more of our doctors come from Pakistan, India, China and the Philippines.

Better hope those foreign medical schools are good.

Yeah - it's expensive to go to medical school. But, in the long run it will all be worth it - I will have a career that, every day, I am happy to do and be a part of.

Deb, Good luck to your daughter. PA school is getting more and more competitive to get into because so many people are opting to go the PA route instead of the MD or DO route. One thing that's kind of cool though - some medical schools are developing PA-to-MD (or DO) curriculums.

Rocafellanerd - Many people don't realize how expensive medical school is anymore. Once they do, they begin to understand why more and more physicians are going into specialties (and even sub-specialties) instead of primary care. Primary care physicians typically just don't make enough for a physician who is still paying student loans to survive on. Though many states are starting programs to help encourage people to go into Primary Care by agreeing to pay $X toward their student loans for so many years of contracted service in primary care. Of course, the physician must practice where the state tell them - typically in an under-served area. Which means either rural or inner-city.

dontgivemethepenguin: LOL. Sometimes it would be nice to have another adult there to pick up the slack - my housework has seriously gone down hill since I've become a medical student. My boys just aren't very good at keeping things as clean as I want them to be. :)

RealAmericanFirst, Some foreign medical schools are very good. Also, foreign doctor's have to pass the boards here before they are licensed to practice in the US. That said, the expense of attending a US medical school does contribute to less US citizens becoming physicians.

I will pick up the slack for you.

I'd hate to burst your bubble.....but when your "spouse" gets out of the medical school and lands a good job after years and years in residency......she might end up making "big bucks". However, after she pays all her taxes, rent or mortgage, car payment, medical malpractice insurance, daycare cost and then her student loan payment....you guys will be in a poor house. I should know because I am on that boat right now. While it's true that I love what I do the pressures of making ends meet and knowing that my license is on the line at any given point due to possible error and malpractice lawsuit....very stressful way to live. I have even considered abondoning my life and my "american dream" here and move back to my country (Czech Republi). I am sorry to sound to bitter but that's where I am at...Sorry, I have to go now, there is a debt collector in the line waiting for me.....

I would like to join you on your boat and I know I can right your ship. I run a tight ship and can save you money with a budget. Let me become your financial planner.

Congratulations. Obviously in this economy you were lucky enough to land jobs right off the bat that give you an extra $10,000/year.

htdjpf:

You are incorrect. The FAFSA DOES go off of your parents' income even if they do not claim you. I have been a college student for four years now, and every year I have to call my parents to get their tax information to fill out my FAFSA. They have not claimed me since I was 17 years old. I have not lived with them since I was 18. None of this matters. Until I am 24 years old, marry, or have a child, I am still considered a dependent.