Interest rates have been far too low for a long time, except a brief periods when they spiked only slightly. Debt is the major factor in this meltdown, and not just government debt or bad debt on the books of the banks and financial institutions. The financial insitution's bad debt, that led to the government soaking everyone - bad actors and good - to bail them out was based on guess what? Consumer debt.

If you're overpaying on an interest rate, why is that Wells Fargo's fault? What kind of interest rate? Credit card? Those rates went through the roof as a direct result of congressional meddling - on everyone, by every bank, bad credit or good. Home mortgage? Did you shop around, or just take what you could get?

If you're talking about interest paid, Wells Fargo isn't the only one paying crap so stop kidding yourself and blaming the bank. They're ALL paying crap - because that rate is based on the Fed rate. In theory, if the rates go up on what you pay to borrow, they'll go up on what you save as well.

The government created the current problems, the government created the recession in the first place by ignoring the warning signs of the credit bubble and housing bubble. I have no expectation whatsoever that anything they do will actually solve any problems without creating more problems - no matter who's in charge.

if the consumer can not have "cheap" credit how about the federeal government cutting about 4 million of the 6 million employees they have and forcing the 50% of us not paying any taxes to do so. This country is setting itself up for another revolution, think about it.

This cloud has a huge silver lining. This is an opportunity for every American to completely reassess their spending habits.

For far too long we have been buying THINGS we want. Don't really need 'em, just want 'em. We use credit, and we start digging the hole. The THINGS wear out or become obsolete before we've paid for 'em. Now, we gotta have a new one.

While we're at it, don't we really want a bigger house? Don't we need a shiny new car? Of course, that means both parents will have to work. Not to worry. We'll put the kids in one of those government socialist day care centers, and the teachers'll take care of 'em the rest of the time. Hey, it's kinda like a traditional family value, and besides we'll spend five minutes of quality time with 'em this evening, right? Mostly they'll be watching TV and playing video games anyway while they're inhaling their fast food.

The house'll appreciate and then we can get a bigger one. Might even think about changing jobs. After all, those real estate agents get 6% every time a house flips and the prices are going up astronomically. And hey, PSSSSSSSST, got this straight from a friend of mine, Bernie Madoff. He says this can go on forever. There is absolutely no need to be responsible.

Pragmatic, the government is not some sort of stand alone, do everything in a vacuum entity. We created the current problems. We created the recession, which is not over by any means, and likely will continue to depression-like proportions. We ignored the warning signs. All of us. The government is not THEY. It is US.

As I said at the top, this cloud has a silver lining. But my money is on the true American spirit. We will ignore this opportunity, blame this on some boogey man - Socialism, Communism, Capitalism, Marxism, makes no difference - and continue our slide into full-time debtor nation status.

The government created the current problems, the government created the recession in the first place by ignoring the warning signs of the credit bubble and housing bubble. I have no expectation whatsoever that anything they do will actually solve any problems without creating more problems - no matter who's in charge.

=Democrats and Republicans=200 years of...?

To David Walker:

Thank you for being the voice of reason.

Excellent comments, a great contribution to the discussion...for those who will listen. (Few; most are too attached to their partisan vitriol.)

I'd like to know how much NEW debt is going on credit cards? Does anyone have any numbers on it? Just curious....because I for one have stopped using them altogether and I know a few people who are doing the same. Question...if nobody uses credit cards anymore, what will happen to the companies that issue them? Again...just curious. It would stand to reason that interest rates would go down, if you believe in the capitalist idea of supply and demand. If less people everywhere wanted and needed credit, it would stand to reason that the price of borrowing (interest rates) would go down, wouldn't they? yeah right!

Capitalism only works if you don't have rich greedy @!$%#s manipulating everything privately. The day when the market rules itself are overwith since you have the fat cats with their hands constantly in the cookie jar. Become a cash society and save and pay cash for everything.

Walker -

"We" created this mess? Sure. We were stupid enough to believe it when the government decided that homeownership was a right, not the priviledge that it actually is. We were stupid enough to sign up for more credit than we could possibly reasonably repay. We were stupid enough to believe that the gravy train of cheap credit would last forever and support our desire for things we really can't afford.

And if we continue to be stupid enough to think the government can and should solve our problems for us, we deserve every problem we have. The purpose of government as defined by the Constitution is NOT to guarantee homeownership, heath care, and a TV for everyone. The government has so far outgrown it's intended purpose - via the Fed, the bailouts, the stimulus, all of it - and some people just keep asking for more government. When they're all bought and paid for by special interests and lobbiests - on both sides of the aisle- there is no possible way anything the government does is going to actually benefit anyone besides those special interests and lobbiests. I would prefer they do NOTHING than legislate to cowtow to their contributors.

If it's "we" who caused this problem, our guilt is based on misplaced expectations that the representatives we send to Washington are actually representing us. Right now, if you have your hand out and want to suck at the government tit like a helpless imbecile, they are representing you. The rest of us, not so much.

schmadrian - you're the only partisan here, apparently. If you can still believe that more government = better despite all the evidence to the contrary, you have been bought and paid for by the liberal Democrats. As a libertarian independent who happens to be an (embarrassed) registered Democrat, I have lost faith in our government in it's entirety from any party or non-party representative at all.

Having just spent five days in DC, it has never been more plain to me what a dogs lunch the government has made of the government.

Prag, sounds like your saying Hooray for me and @!$%# any one else. Not everyone is as fortunate as you.

To David Walker - couldn't have said it better myself.

Walker, I concur if nobody borrows for anything but business , which needs to be done, the rates will have to come down, but you know most people cant wait to buy anything, I say screw the banks and dont borrow.

And there has always been the undercurrent of we are 70% consumption as the engine of our economy, so go shopping or it all will collapse. And look, we have stopped shopping (insert favorite reason here) and it's all collapsing. Your money goes out the front you get something for it (goods and services) it goes out the back (you save) you get higher taxes for unemployment, higher taxes and less government service because sales taxes decline etc etc.

David Walker voted up. He provides the perfect example of what is wrong with America and Americans today.

Fortunately, I had a grandmother who told me again and again that if I couldn't afford something with cash not to buy it. She also told me 35 years ago that credit would ruin this country. How right she was!

"This is an opportunity for every American to completely reassess their spending habits. For far too long we have been buying THINGS we want. Don't really need 'em, just want 'em. We use credit, and we start digging the hole. The THINGS wear out or become obsolete before we've paid for 'em. Now, we gotta have a new one."

For me, this is the ultimate truth about the situation. But what most won't consider is what this means: that a strictly 'consumer' society is, ultimately, doomed.

If your value system is based on consumption, if it's based on acquisition, on materialism...then it has a finite future. Mostly because, to borrow the words of Gertrude Stein, 'There's no 'there', there.' Eventually, it will collapse from within.

But this truth will be rejected. Because it's like trying to get the junkie to see the flaw in his or her lifestyle-of-choice. Only when their state meets its limits are they open to change. That is, crisis.

We're not there yet...and the 'suppliers' probably won't let us get there, because they need their junkies.

RPAL -

Please explain how you extrapolated that conclusion (horray me, screw everyone else) out of my post.

This should be interesting.

Dave Walker braveeseemo!well said. that sums up just about most of this mess in a nut shell EXACTLY. AGAIN BRAVO and AMEN!

David Walker..."This cloud has a huge silver lining."

The lining can be huge only if the cloud itself is huge. And that is certainly the case. Medicare currently has over $35 TRILLION in unfunded liability. Social Security has approximately $8 TRILLION in unfunded liability. That is over $43 TRILLION in unfunded liabilities for two programs. Recently the Treasury tried to raise money by selling bonds, but could not sell them until they bumped the return rate up to 4%. That was necessary for several reasons, but the primary one is that those buying the bonds do not have faith in Americas ability to repay them.

Here is an analogy of how I see the the real problem. In a large room there is an elephant and we have politicians scurrying about trying to clean up enormous piles of elephant dung. A fifth grader walks in, observes whats going for few minutes and asks, "Why don't you just get rid of the elephant?" The politicians all turn to the child and simultaneously say, "What elephant?"

The economic and financial problems that face the country are an huge, dark cloud over America. And we better start sucking it up and making the difficult sacrifices to turn this around before it's so big, the silver linings on the cloud are completely out of sight.

Who has the the time to shop for rates, any one with children who work cant sit and research interesr rates, also we might not have a perfect credit score as you seem to be boasting of.

Where did I boast of a "perfect credit score"? I didn't even mention credit scores except in the context of no matter what a person's credit score might happen to be, their credit card rates went up due to congressional meddling, nor did I make any direct reference to myself except that I just came back from DC.

Having children and a job prevents a person from researching credit rates? That's the lamest, most whiney assed excuse for lack of personal responsibility I've heard lately. What do you want, a government agent showing up at your door telling you where you could do better? If you can't handle having children and making a phone call, or spending 10 minutes on the internet researching rates, you probably should have children OR a loan. It's really NOT that difficult, despite what all the victims crying about "banks screwing them" want to claim.

You still haven't answered the question. Before attempting again, please reread my post for content, not your preconceived notion of what you THINK I'm saying.

What none of these articles discuss is that this system we live under is going to come crashing down. They all talk about how we are in a recovery. This is a lie. The economy is just being propped up and inflated by stimulus, but the underlying problems have not been solved. The banks still have all their toxic assets. The US still has a weak manufacturing base. The massive debt has gotten bigger.

The US has no money. Period. The Chinese have already started to pull back on funding our liabilities. The rest of the world will follow. Interest rates are already at zero. There is nowhere left to go. The US dollar is going to crash. Our most likely future is either going to involve a deflationary depression, or (more likely) hyperinflation.

Stock up on food and other necessities now, folks. This entitlement system we have built for ourselves is going to go away, and thank God for that. Save your money, take personal responsibility for yourselves, take care of you and yours. Help your neighbor when you can and if they need it. We need to get back to what we are supposed to be - a constitutional republic where the people are unshackled from the tyranny of big government.

I wouldn't know as I decided that I wouldn't carry a balance on any credit card no matter the item or desire

Time for rate hikes was like 8 years ago! whilst the housing bubble was inflating! Now we have High Inventory of homes, commercial foreclosures rising, tax increases by Fed. ,States, counties, city's, etc.. The inflation being seen is from Home buyers tax credit, cash for clunkers and the cash for appliances .Etc. These programs Have inflated Home prices , car prices,and new appliance cost Etc..Summer travel coming up will see the annual increase in fuel prices. So come fall fuel prices will drop ,the raise in rates by the Fed. will show up as larger profits for the banks that government owns stock in and has bailed out.The Gooberment then will say, see bailouts are working even though 15 million people are not.As these programs end and prices on these goods drop to where they should be, Fed can say see we got a handle on inflation. Rate increase now will just be more downward pressure on the job market. Its just another Scheme that is being Clouded over with methane from all the BS..

Wachovia got their claws in me with their "the credit score people love you" speech, Which would have been true, as I am responsible. They handed me a 7% card as soon as I opened my damned checking. Of course they never warned me about the gradual rise up to 12%, before they brought in back down just a bit. Now I rarely use it. Just used it for the 1st time in 4 months, last week. I was on a trip to see my immediate family for the first time in a year. Looked at my father in law upon return and told him I wont be using that card again! I dont plan on doing the banks any favors. They already have our first mortgage payment. Might as well cut up their plastic.

People are going to find out just how cheap the rates we have had for the last 20 years have been. I bought a home back in the early 90'2. I had great credit- the interest rates was in the 10% area- and that was a good rate. People do not have the experience or the memory to realize that mortgage rates like what we have had are unusual. Rates exceeding 15% have been there in the past. Review this link http://mortgage.lovetoknow.com/Historic_Mortgage_Rates

This will change the face of America and will cause great troubles. Will people throw tantrums and expect the Govt to get them the goodies they are accustomed to? or will they finally live within their means. Only time will tell. Fot those that still have some money, there may be good opportunities but the the bulk of us, things are going to get a bit tougher than they already have been. Good luck to you all out there.

Welcome back Carter! Obama is Jimmy Carter on Steroids!

David Walker forgot the part where the politician said at three different events, "Just go out and spend." Yea, that was W, so what's new? Everyone neglects the fact that Americans are perverted into "spending is good". That for us to feel good, we have generations indoctrinated into living in excess. How do you defeat an idea? Kinda like fighting Al-Qaida, another ideology. Which is of greater evil? I'll let all of you chew on that.

Deke-1776

What none of these articles discuss is that this system we live under is going to come crashing down. They all talk about how we are in a recovery. This is a lie. The economy is just being propped up and inflated by stimulus, but the underlying problems have not been solved. The banks still have all their toxic assets. The US still has a weak manufacturing base. The massive debt has gotten bigger.

The US has no money. Period. The Chinese have already started to pull back on funding our liabilities. The rest of the world will follow. Interest rates are already at zero. There is nowhere left to go. The US dollar is going to crash. Our most likely future is either going to involve a deflationary depression, or (more likely) hyperinflation.

Stock up on food and other necessities now, folks. This entitlement system we have built for ourselves is going to go away, and thank God for that. Save your money, take personal responsibility for yourselves, take care of you and yours. Help your neighbor when you can and if they need it. We need to get back to what we are supposed to be - a constitutional republic where the people are unshackled from the tyranny of big government.

Deke is the man. America over-expanded, like in chess. When you push out too far, you leave a huge weak spot behind that front. Americans have no stomach for chess.

Be careful leaving your cash as cash, too. That is akin to Confederate script, at this point. Even the Chinese know this. That's why they buy mines, not metals. They know the stuff in the ground is worth more in the ground. Selling it for someone's "script", is like throwing away the commodity.

As for the complexities of Obama's spending habits, whithout it, America would have acted just like unemployed Iraqis. I don't think you have the stomach for that. Imagine Detroit (alone) with 50-70% unemployment.

Lastly, let's not forget that we've spent $300 up to $800 billion on military since 2001. And, might continue that spending for a few more years. Care to debate that money as money well spent? Worse than any stimulus, the worst of all government spenders has gotten the blank check policy down to a science. Just like Israel, our military is good at creating the need for an enemy.

As so goes another nail in the hopes of a recovering enconomy...

Well played Obama - if you'd think things through, squeezing corporations in the private sector means Americans will end up paying for it in the end...same with Health Care.

Obama will go down in history for sure...

The privately owned Federal Reserve is who OWNS America, the Republicants, and Demoncrats, and they are INTENTIONALLY destroying our country. Everything they are doing is to de-industrialize us and to wipe out the middle class so what we have left, is what the world was before the founding of America...Royalty and Peasantry...the extremely rich and extremely poor...Surfdom...the Old World Order. They are doing this to bring in thier One World Government/One World Currency. The One World Government will NOT be bringing the third world to first world status, it will be to bring the first world countries down to third world status.

The banks got bailed out for bad loans and now are going to take it out on the consumer after the taxpayer 50% of us bailed them out.

I agree with the post on do we need that shiny new whatever and should we save to a point.

I paid off all my CC debt, and when I use them I pay them off every month. But had I paid that money into my 401k or bought a house and been responsible in debt management the outcome would have been the same due to the government and Wall Street screwing up.

I still would have lost 40% of my 401k and been upside down on a house, due to their manipulation of the banks by saying if you don't loan money to someone who can afford it you can be sued. The Glass Steagal Act would have still been replaced and the SEC and the Ethics board would still be protecting the good ole boys on the hill from the public.

So is defaulting the right answer?

Doubt it, but it seems the responsible middle class citizen has no recourse over the rich and the excesses and cheating or the poor and the needy or the sell out of America by the government.

Rates are going up, households are in debt 9 times above 1981 levels, consumers should cut back; at the same time Government wants consumers to start spending again to get us out of the recession, housing and commercial real estate is in the tank, but interest rates will rise; we are seeing the results of 25 years of government out of control; I agree with walker, stop spending, try to save if you have anything left, the result will be government will tax the hell out of savings, we are in a period of long term decline which can only result in the de facto devaluation of the American dollar, and the result being America will join the rest of the third world nations. The federal reserve does not care about the American middle class, they are a world government, HE WHO CONTROLS THE PURSE STRING, CONTROLS THE WORLD!

Well - I personally feel that it is IT professionals many who do not have formal education that are raking in the big bucks with six-figure or higher salaries because that is what they are fed - are helping to oppress average citizens. There are no breaks in fees for the government - that we all pay with our tax dollars.

Because we are mostly reliant on their services now, these individuals are by far the most greedy America has seen, ever - because their salaries are far more significant than their skill. Trust that I know about this more than most.

We are blaming an old, sick government, when we need to be looking at what propels that government, its people, and its interest.

Are you concerned about the National Debt???

Here are some interesting facts about the cost of the National Debt, whose effects will ultimately be felt in the annual interest payments that have to be made from tax revenues.

Under Bill Clinton, the average monthly interest on the National Debt was $18.9 Billion per month.

Under George W Bush, the average monthly interest on the National Debt was $16.6 Billion per month.

The average interest rate paid on the National Debt under Bill Clinton was 4.4% per year, but under Jimmy Carter it got as high as 5.78% per year.

The current Administration's future budgets call for the National Debt to increase to about $25.8 Trillion in 10 years, so the interest cost could increase to anywhere from $56 Billion to $125 Billion per MONTH.

That EXTRA $100 Billion or so per month ($1.2 Trillion per year) would have to be paid with an average TAX INCREASE of over $1,200 per MONTH for a family of four.

And the bad news doesn't stop there. If the government decides to pay for the interest by borrowing instead of raising taxes (typical politicians), the National Debt could increase to about $35 Trillion in 10 years, and the monthly interest on the National Debt would increase to as much as $169 Billion per month ($2.02 Trillion per year). AND THAT'S JUST FOR INTEREST AND NOTHING ELSE.

This will be an economic disaster for our children and grandchildren, who will be little more than indentured servants to foreigners as long as they live.

I wonder if this was the “Change you can believe in” that you voted for?

Is anyone paying attention?????????

Send the banks packing. Pay off your credit cards except for one to use in emergencies, and use cash. Be frugal with your purchases and pay on time.

Tell the banks we won't be dealing with them if they want to continue to take advantage of consumers.

As for the debt, after we have recovered enough, then raise taxes and let's pay off the debt.

What was the secret of Bill Clinton's economic success?

Bill Clinton's Presidency has been widely viewed as an economic success story (despite his personal failings), so I decided to take a look at the overall factors that contributed to his economic success, and one single factor stood above all others – THE LEVEL OF GOVERNMENT SPENDING.

When Clinton was elected, he dramatically decreased the level of government spending to an average increase of only 3.3% per year – about $51 Billion per year.

The result was that he had several years where the government actually had a Budget Surplus (although he never had a single year where the National Debt actually decreased).

When G W Bush was elected, he slowly started to increase the level of spending, so that his average annual increase in spending was 6.6%, and he had 7 annual Budget Deficits (his first year was a surplus).

If Bush had maintained the low average annual increases in spending that Clinton did, he too would have had Budget Surpluses for most of his tenure, and would have ended his 8 years with a total net Budget SURPLUS of $549.4 Billion, which would have been even better than Bill Clinton's total 8 year net Budget DEFICIT of $320.4 Billion ($40.1 Billion per year). Instead, because of excessive spending, Bush had total Budget Deficits over 8 years of $2,005.9 Billion ($250.7 Billion per year).

It would appear that limited SPENDING is the key to both economic success and Deficit reduction.

Unfortunately, in Obama's first year, he increased spending by 18% - $535 Billion, and his Budget Deficit soared to $1,412.7 Billion, and he projects his 2010 spending to grow by 22%- $660 Billion over Bush's last year in office, and his Budget Deficit for 2010 is projected to be about $1,430 Billion.

Limited SPENDING seems to be the key to success, but we are going in exactly the wrong direction. The European Union has set a limit for their member nations that the annual Deficit is not supposed to exceed 3% of Gross Domestic Product (GDP), and Greece got into their financial crisis with out-of-control spending on government programs that exceeded 10% of GDP.

It's interesting that the Deficit for the United States for 2009 was 9.92% Of GDP, thanks to Obama's wild spending spree, and is projected to increase to almost 10% for 2010.

By comparison, G W Bush's last (and largest) Deficit (2008) was only 3.17%., and averaged only 2.05% over his 8 years.

You voted for “Change you can believe in”, and that's what you got. Congratulations.

I'm sure your children and grandchildren will “thank” you for saddling them with a crushing debt burden (and the taxes to pay for it).

Roy at 1.32 - I am.

Can you post some links to verifiable sources that can back up your post with support for what you say?

Good stats, by the way - now back it up for readers so that it can be solidified.

The bottom line is..........>>Don't let anyone else think for you...especially the government.

I hear the death knell for plastic money. I hope the banks are ready for this coming consumer boycott.

I've stopped using my credit cards 6 months ago. When they're payed off, I'm destroying them. The banks can KMA if they ever want me to get another one.

Isn't Obamanomics wonderful? Hope and change..., hope and change..., hope and change... The chant of the mindless drone.

Unlike many Americans, I am glad that my wife and I never took advantage of "cheap credit."

We have lived with the same financial "ethics" of our Depression-Era Grandparents.

I use my credit card for everything but pay it off each month. Groceries, fuel, clothing, even some household bills. I know what I can afford, never have a balance, and use their money for 20 or 25 days. The trick is that you have to pay it off.

One question, though. There are so many who have racked up credit card debt just to survive, because they are out of work. These people will NEVER get back on their feet if they raise interest rates any more. My MasterCard, which I got rid of, threatened 29.9% and when I called them on it, they said that it was a mistake. Cut up the damn thing anyway, even though I never had a balance.

Is that what credit cards are charging now? And they are going to go up??????

Pragmatic - the government certainly caused this mess, the banks were complicit in creating the conditions for a failure then consequently the fleecing of the taxpayers for their corrupt practices.

But, if you believe that consumer debt had anything to do with the crash you are still believing the original lies we were told in order to convince us that we needed to help the financial sector. When fifteen or twenty people own insurance policies on the same mortgage then they all collect when there is one default. So, a 200,000 real loss cost 2 million after everyone collects. That is a very simplistic explanation but it is closer to what really happened than we have been told.

keith, you are on the right track, it is less than 2 mil; however it is still 7 times the original loss, 20,000 X 7 = 140, 000. compound at 4% for 20 years around 320,000. Multiply that time the 7.5 trillion loss and you get a amount that has to many zeros to put in this space.

30% is cheap?

Keith -

There are three prongs on the fork of blame for the financial collapse.

1. Government creating a situation wherein credit was viewed as a right.

2. Banks/investment companies taking advantage of/complying with regulations to provide credit, then overleveraging on those loans they shouldn't have made. Without Glass-Steagall, there was no barrier.

3. Consumers failing at basic four function math, and believing that credit was a right.

Of this I am well aware. I was responding to another poster who claims this mess was the consumers fault, and actually I agree with that more than I'm willing to explain here. Suffice to say, if consumers hadn't whined, government wouldn't have done many of the things it did.

Translation/Explanation of article into plain english

In Russia, back before the collapse of the Soviet Union, they used to say that you could get a lot of information about what was really going on from Pravda the official government paper, you just had to be able to read between the lines. It's the same way here with our official media, the big corporate news outlets. Here's my translation/explanation of this MSNBC article: Consumers face end of cheap credit:

Even as prospects for the American economy brighten, consumers are about to face a new financial burden: a sustained period of rising interest rates.

Translation: Wall Street and the rich generally are doing much better thanks to massive tax payer funded bailouts and policy changes by the Bush and Obama administrations. The costs of the economic collapse brought about by Wall Street were "socialized" and the profits from the "brightened" economy are being "privatized".

Indeed, total household debt is now nine times what it was in 1981 — rising twice as fast as disposable income over the same period — yet the portion of disposable income that goes toward covering that debt has budged only slightly, increasing to 12.6 percent from 10.7 percent.

Explanation and Translation: Back in the 1950's & 60's even with just one person working in the family most Americans didn't need "cheap" credit or sub prime loans because their jobs payed them enough to have a comfortable middle class life style. Back then strong unions and government policy (Keynesian economic policies) forced wages and living standards to rise for just about everyone. No one had credit cards back then because you didn't need them and sub-prime loans were illegal. Then starting in the late 1970's, government policy shifted to so-called "Free-market" economic policies and Big Business, driven by CEO and Wall Street greed, started busting unions, outsourcing and downsizing millions of jobs causing the average working person's wages and benefits to go down significantly. With this reduction the only way they could keep the economy going was to start offering credit to people. Like someone said: Now a days they'll loan you what they used to pay you. This article is telling you that now they are not even going to do that.

'We've gotten spoiled'
Just as significant as the bottom-line impact will be the psychological fallout from not being able to buy more while paying less — an unusual state of affairs that made consumer spending the most important measure of economic health.

"We've gotten spoiled by the idea that interest rates will stay in the low single-digits forever," said Jim Caron, an interest rate strategist with Morgan Stanley. "We've also had a generation of consumers and investors get used to low rates."

Translation: He doesn't mean "WE" he means YOU, Mr. and/or Mrs. average working american. See, it's YOUR fault. They've spoiled you. They greatly reduced your benefits and wages over the last 30 years (and CEOs and people at places like Morgan Stanley plus wealthy investors skimmed off the difference for themselves) so that you had to borrow the money, work two or three jobs or have both the wife and the husband work, just to keep up an average middle class life but now....no more Mr. Nice Guy. You're going to have to pay through the nose for even that if your lucky enough to even have a job (With them picking up the difference for themselves again just like before).

Some firms, like Morgan Stanley, are predicting that rates could rise by a percentage point and a half by the end of the year. Others, like JPMorgan Chase are forecasting a more modest half-point jump.

But the consensus is clear, according to Terrence M. Belton, global head of fixed-income strategy for J. P. Morgan Securities. "Everyone knows that rates will eventually go higher," he said.

Translation: Grab your ankles middle class america: Wall Street and "Free-market" capitalism are still in the saddle and these guys (and girls) don't take prisoners.

Unless you get mad to complain to your elected representatives or better yet join (or start?) an organization and that will do something about it.

"Then starting in the late 1970's, government policy shifted to so-called "Free-market" economic policies"

This is incorrect. We have not had capitalism in this country for quite some time - we've had crony capitalism. In a free market system, there would have been no bailouts. GM and all those banks would be out of business, and the free market would naturally fill the void.

Keynesian policies are why we are in the trouble we are in now. As soon as we embraced central banking (the Fed) and decoupled from sound money practices, this current outcome was inevitable. The current policies of the US government are not going to solve our problems, only exacerbate them.

David Walker. Very well said. I think the moral of your straight forward post can be summed up in one statement. If you cannot afford it now, do not get it now.

The worst part about increasing interest rates for consumers is that the banks are still borrowing money from the Fed at almost no interest and then selling the money us at 15, 20, 30% interest and making a fortune....especially after we, as taxpayers, bailed them out and kept them in business. That's disgusting.

The government swears there's no inflation and penalizes those on fixed incomes by not increasing the small amount of SSA or SS retirement to match the real cost of living. We are tired of being lied to and should vote out all these greedy, power hungry, inept politicians as soon as possible.

Interestingly, I would take all that Bill Karson has said as an agreement with the exception of the underlying causes shifting to what Deke has said in post 1.46.

I've said it before; many, many of us are on the same page, we see what's wrong, but are having some troubles getting together, agreeing on how we got there (here) and what needs done. Doesn't mean I'm correct about my above assesment either, only saying...

We need to realize the Donkephant is one animal, Inbred Blue and Red, and THAT'S what really needs changed at the core of this all. Then realize we can't consume without producing, that's fallacy plain and simple, spin in any way you like.

Aftre, we can start peeling off these damned bandaids and have real solutions and fixes instead.

I am not interested in the high interest rates on credit cards. Credit cards should not be an acceptable way to grow and mis-use credit. It has always been a negative and one of the most foolish practices. I am not against credit cards, since they do provide a service, but they should not be the method that people use for long term credit to buy stuff they cant afford.

J.A- I would say that hindsight is always 20/20, and do agree with you.

Just for the sake of arguement, I would say leave the abusers out of this temporarily; if only to look at another segment of the population (playing devil's advocate, I suppose).

From a standpoint of 'orchestration', there are many that did take advantage of the credit not only offered buy PROMOTED constantly; ads in the mail, tele, internet, etc.. because manufacturing and production jobs were slowly, then rather quickly, being off shored. Wrong or right, there were people that had their homes for over a decade, were getting hit from both sides, and started using the inexpensive credit for utilities and other necessity payments. I would venture there are more of these folks than some believe; not part of the sub-prime mess in home buying, investing, flipping, big screen TV buyers, etc... .

End story, I konw several of these people where I live; jobs gone, replacements not available, part time at best AND underpaying, 2-3 years or re-education not an option when having a mortgage, rent, family, etc... . And, some even said, 'if I lose, guess I'll lose big, but this HAS to turn around. Manufacturing and production HAVE to come back, it's one of the largest sections of America's backbone'.

Without work, defaults went crazy, and most really started more than a year before it ever made the news, really was considered 'a recession'. Even 5 years or more prior. Point is, these are people that DO and WANT to work; they're losing due to no fault of their own, but that of our sold out Representatives, the Illegal Fed Reserve and their group of international bankers, the U.N., the WTO, and this bastardization of Corporo-Governmentism vs. what HAD BEEN at one time Real American Based Capitalism (granted, that's been some time ago.... some posting probably weren't alive then).

The core of this and other issues, as always, points towards one......and I believe more are seeing that, allbeit some, for now, partisanly.

timelines are everything-

1913 We got the income tax and the Fed in one year.

1917 We went to War, one that could not have been funded without Central Banking as the People didn't have a real dog in that European Fight.

1920's We had huge expansion credit and high living made possible, again, by Central Banking.

1930's We had a huge bottom drop out of the overinflated economy and had a decade of pure misery, and revolution was staved off by people buying into the smoke and mirrors of government ponzi schemes, eventually brought out of economic misery by.....

1940's Another War in which we really didn't have much of a dog in the fight. Lend/Lease was a boon for our economy it just got us into a de facto war with the Germans in the Atlantic which turned into a real war with the Japs in the Pacific. After the war, Bretton Woods made the dollar the gold standard of the World.

1950's We were the "breadbasket of the world" as War ravaged Europe was dependent on us to bail them out. We were the biggest CREDITOR in the world. Unfortunately the Russian Bear "helped out" their sphere of influence as well and the cold war began. After two decades of Democratic Statism in the entitlement realm, the Republicans decided to abandon their anti-Statist roots and founded their own rationale for Statist growth by clinging onto the cold war rhetoric. Communism was bad, as libertarians could appreciate, but it wasn't aided by turning our country into an arsenal and stationing troops around the world. Korea being a hot spot in the cold war-ism.

1960's got us another flare up in the cold war into a "hot spot" in Viet Nam, again going to war under the Democrats. We also got the second leg in the entitlement expansion (more smoke and mirrors) in the Great Society programs.

1970's We got a huge dampening to the economy as we had to actually PAY for Viet Nam. Also other geo-political realities led energy crises. We also got the advent of draconian environmental laws under the Republicans/Nixon. The decade ending in soul killing stagflation.

1980's We got out of the malaise of the 70's by slashing taxes, but we didn't do a damn thing about the EXPENDITURES under our ponzi-schemed entitlement programs. And so we borrowed, and the Long Manipulation of Credit Era began (ending with Republicans espousing the wonderfulness of "debt you never have to payback" in the 2000's). We then embarked on a three decade long binge of easy credit all 'round for government, business, and individuals.

1990's We got more of the same, with the odd War tossed in for good measure.

2000's We got more of the same, with the odd War tossed in for good measure.

And now we have a (very conservatively estimated ) $55 TRILLION accrual basis debt, a dollar that is likely to crash, difficulty in moving national debt, 10% unemployment and a brittle market to put it nicely. And we have decided to go ahead and put another six tons on our entitlement load. We are perfectly SCREWED.

So how did we get here? We got here by listening to the siren's song of Statist Government. despite all the historical evidence of what you get with Centrist/Statist Governments we went with it anyway. I guess it's the easist way - believe the government can manufacture more out of whole cloth than could be created without it. Which of course is false. The Government is merely the conduit of Force, and all it can do is allocate - take from one and give to another - whether it be finished goods or the means of production and resources. So instead of dismantling its foray into intervention - the income tax and Central Banking that got us War and the Depression - our grandparents and great grandparents decided to Believe in the Government even more. And after decades of monetary mismanagement and War we are on the brink of complete collapse.

The reality is that economies left unfettered will ebb and flow. I look at it like a sine curve with a very low amplitude and a mid level frequency. All the government can do, with its manipulations and Force is to increase the amplitude and extend the frequency. That just means while there are higher highs, and for a longer span, there will consequently be lower lows, and, again, for a longer time. We have been riding a 30 year sky high upside - what were we supposed to expect as a consequence? We are in for a LOOOOOOOOONNNG rocky ride to make up for it. Instead of taking our bad with the good in a timely manner, growing our economy through sane measures of increased productivity per person through technology, as we had since the beginning of the industrial revolution, we decided we could have it all. And all we had was illusion.

What it translates into right now, in practical terms, is those who think they have a basketful of government entitlements AND their retirement accounts, think again. We are going to have a shrunken economic pie out of which entitlees, savers (deferred consumers), and current laborers expect a big slice. The music about to stop and there are only two chairs. Whoever is left out is bound to angry and radicalized. Unfortunately BOTH parties have been playing the middle class as fools, and BOTH have been driving the middle class out of existence. It is going to be the middle class that will be the most radicalized out of all of this, and revolution that spins from it isn't likely to be very pretty.

toolkien and moderation-

Great posts. Spot-on.

That's an excellent analysis up there Roy.

Deke,

If the economy were good you'd be saying it's a triumph of free market capitalism. You can't disown it and label it something else just because it doesn't work out the way you want (Keynesiamism wasn't applied perfectly either, no theory ever is).

"Free-market" capitalism: De-regulation, privatization, cutting taxes on the wealthy and corporations, destroying social programs, busting unions. That certainly is what's been happening for the last 30-40 years.

They did the same thing in the 1920's but the called it Laissez Faire capitalism back then. Different name, same result. The stock market and the economy tanked.

They adopted the free market model in other countries too they referred to it as the Washington consensus. Chile, Argentina, Mexico, the former Soviet Union, Eastern Europe wherever they installed it the same thing happened, the economy and standard of living for most of the people went down the tubes.

It was Keynesian economics from 1935 to the early mid 1970's and we had the Post War boom, two solid decades of rising living standards.

Wikipedia: Keynesian economics (pronounced /ˈkeɪnziən/, also called Keynesianism and Keynesian Theory) is amacroeconomic theory based on the ideas of 20th-century British economist John Maynard Keynes. Keynesian economics argues that private sector decisions sometimes lead to inefficient macroeconomic outcomes and therefore, advocates active policy responses by the public sector, including monetary policy actions by thecentral bank and fiscal policy actions by the government to stabilize output over the business cycle.^[1] The theories forming the basis of Keynesian economics were first presented in The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money, published in 1936; the interpretations of Keynes are contentious, and several schools of thought claim his legacy.

Keynesian economics advocates a mixed economy—predominantly private sector, but with a large role of government and public sector—and served as the economic model during the latter part of the Great Depression,World War II, and the post-war economic expansion (1945–1973), though it lost some influence following thestagflation of the 1970s. The advent of the global financial crisis in 2007 has caused a resurgence in Keynesian thought. The British Prime Minister Gordon Brown and other global leaders have used the theory of Keynesian economics to justify intervening in the world economy.^[2]

Oh please, you're giving Keynesian economics the nod for the post war boom? Keynesians were predicting a massive depression in 1946. The opposite happened.

"cutting taxes on the wealthy and corporations" - how about we just cut them for everyone? Taxes are high for everyone because of Keynesian policies. The wealthy and corporations get cuts because of crony capitalism, wherein your buddies in Congress are controlled. It's nice to be able to be paid off by Goldman Sachs to vote your way, but a free market would have put Goldman out of business. However, your social program heroes in Congress won't let that happen so long as they're pockets are stuffed.

Heh, "union busting". Ever been in a GM assembly plant? I used to work in the industry. The UAW needs to die a painful death. The pay to effort ratio there is seriously skewed. That's not to say that all unions are bad. They certainly had their place and have helped improve working conditions and compensation for us all. However, if you think unions exist for anything other than profit, you are misguided.

And what social programs have been destroyed? The ones that were untenable to begin with because they were Keynesian fantasies? Give me a break. Social programs have been destroyed because they were poorly conceived to begin with. We have had not had free markets in this country for many decades. Social security has been robbed to pay for nonsense that the government should never have been involved with at all. Besides that, what programs have gone away? No matter how much a drain on the economy, these programs seem to just continue to hang around. That's those kooky Keynesians! It's sure nice of them to take half my pay to buy stuff I don't want or need.

The era of Keynesian thought and central banking is coming to an end, and rightly so. Keynes advocated government spending in the bad times, but government saving in the good times. That has never happened. Even the budget surpluses in the 90's did nothing to the national debt.

History shows time and again that when times are bad, you cut back spending and save and invest to get out of it. Invest in REAL things - like new businesses and technologies. No government ever created can do this better than free individuals seeking profit. This is fact, and I would invite you to point out an instance where the government has done something that resulted in more profit and efficiency than the private sector can provide.

Public officials love Keynes. Why? It gives them more power and money. Thankfully people are beginning to wake up to the nonsense in economic thought that has been foisted on us for the last 70 years.

I prefer Your own house economics. In your house, if you do not budget and you continuously spend more than you make you have borrow. eventually you borrow more than you can ever pay back and you become bankrupt .Everyone who lives in that house will suffer because of it. Same with our houses in Washington.

So the problem is not cutting taxes but the ones administrating them. It is clear that laissez faire capitalism does not work because greed will trump that idea. Allowing corporations to do whatever they want will create companies that are too big to fail. Government needs to be there to control greed and protect collective welfare.

In my house I balance my budget without worrying about the next elections or having to pay back a favor to a lobbyist. The problem is not the government and taxes but the people who that are part of the government (both republican, democrats and in between). They are too worried about satisfying lobbyists and earmarks for their own states. We need good administrators who work towards the well of everyone, but themselves. How can we do that?... well let them have no worries about the next election, since we are a democratic society and can't have those people working there until they die because that is what dictatorship does, lets limit their terms to 2 -3 years without re-election. 4 Years for the President seems reasonable because someone needs to follow and execute long term plans.

Grandfather was smart man. To bad his big brother/Uncle SAM didn't listen to him.

Completely agree. Getting pretty tired of Gross and his ilk telling us what we don't understand.

As for the problem being "us" in regards to the federal government and the federal debt, I would disagree somewhat. Our federal government is so removed from our every day life, the system as it is today makes it nearly impossible for anyone but the two parties, nearly identical in core behavior, offer. The two parties figured out how to manage this fraud into an airtight system, guaranteeing them power, and control over this unending spending and borrowing.

Nothing will change until the Federal Government is forced into a balanced budget amendment. Add to that a 2/3rds majority being required for all borrowing, and that the interest and principal be required to be included in the annual budget, so as to limit their ability to borrow based on spending. Without this control, they will continue to step on the gas as we head closer to the cliff. The end is not here, but we can see if from here.

I started out agreeing with some of what you said, until you tried to turn it into an opportunity to bash Obama.

I well recall a time in the later '70s when President Carter urged Americans in all sincerity to do much the same thing as you just have in your post, but Ronald Raygun and the rest of the GOP swept into victory on a ticket that basically stated that it was our right as Americans to waste resources in a profligate manner as long as we so desired, so I can't see how that can now be divorced from the 'conservative' mindset or platform. What aspect of conservative thought has changed since the vapid usurpation of Barry Goldwater's stance by the far right?

Plainly stated, most political talking points these days are simply manufactured wedge issues designed to fragment public opinion into manageable lots - just a new spin on the old 'divide-and-conquer' routine, and all the clatter of the teabaggers is simply playing into the hands of those who engineered this debacle in the first place. Obama has his flaws - who doesn't? - but until I see someone in the opposition show enough maturity and objectivity to give him some credit for what he's done right, then it's hard to bridge the gap which, inarguably, must be spanned before there is any hope of rapprochement.

Back to the matter at hand, I'm curious about the proposed hikes in interest charged without a corresponding hike in the interest paid out for savings and other accounts. When the two are somewhat in sync, I may not agree with the rates, but can acknowledge that the process is working, but when they are moving in opposite directions, as they are now, then it smacks of profiteering.

Hey, beanny, how much would you like to bet that those profits are going into conservative pockets? Yeah, I didn't think you'd be likely to put your money where your mouth is.

I say keep the @!$%#ing conservatives out of all the offices we cant take any more of that, were have you been for the last two terms.

David Wellman

Well said Sir. David Walker Also made some excellent points.

It is extremely ironic that those calling themselves conservatives are in many cases, if they're old enough, the same people who still call Ronald Reagan the greatest president ever. Reagan's presidency was the genesis for where we are at today.

If W were still president, all we would hear about is what a masterful and ingenious job he's done revitalizing an economy that was on the brink of doom. So why don't we hear that about Obama?

We don't hear any cheer-leading going on for Obama because Obama scares the hell out of corporate America. He's been more than fair to them, but more than fair isn't what corporate America wants in a president, it isn't enough.

What corporate America wants in a president is a puppet. Nothing more, nothing less.

I do not claim to know what's going on at the highest levels of govt and the banking industry. I can only see what those two entities do through the filter of the cable news outlets, the blogosphere and PBS and some foreign networks. They all have their own spin, PBS probably having the least.

But it is fairly clear that most corporations loved Reagan and Bush, especially W. They didn't really dislike Clinton all that much when I think about it, but with Clinton one could really see just how deep the political divide has become.

Many people talk about divide and conquer and how it's being applied to the American people, and I agree with that to a large extent. But the notion that the left and the right wings don't really hate each other and that it's all just a big act to fool the people....no, I disagree there. The govt is being divided and conquered as much as the people are in my opinion.

The left and the right despise each other so much now that I think both sides have people so blinded by the desire to win that they would actually do something that was not good for rank and file Americans simply to grab power. And at this time, it's the right that wants the power.

What I see right now that concerns me more than anything else is that it appears that corporate America has declared all out war on president Obama. He is not one of them. He was not born with a silver spoon in the tradition of Bush or Kerry or McCain. His daddy could not pull strings for him. So Obama has still has some loyalty toward the American people.

It's a shame that the non stop propaganda against him is so effective. The very people he is trying to help are being duped by corporate America, aka Fox news, and several RW so called think tanks.

The democrats have a lot of flaws. They are far from perfect. But I think they are the best bet at this time for the American people. Our future is questionable.

WOW guys....thanks for starting all the partisan bickering.

Medicare currently has over $35 TRILLION in unfunded liability. Social Security has approximately $8 TRILLION in unfunded liability. That is over $43 TRILLION in unfunded liabilities for two programs. Recently the Treasury tried to raise money by selling bonds, but could not sell them until they bumped the return rate up to 4%. That was necessary for several reasons, but the primary one is that those buying the bonds do not have faith in Americas ability to repay them.

The real problems that face this country, that are a result of both parties, are orders of magnitude greater than all this partisan bickering.

If the American people don't wake up and start demanding who they elected, regardless of party, to start solving our real problems, none of this will really matter a few years down the road.

Why would you want to cut up your credit cards? After you've paid them off, tuck them away in a safe place. Who couldn't use a $1000-2000 line of credit for emergencies?

HS321 your post has hit the nail on the head.

HS at 4.4 - can you show us some links to credible sources for these figures? Not being sarcastic - I would like to see what you are saying backed up for readers.

Thanks.

R PAL

Where have you been??? As you see with health care Tarp ETC. the president can't do squat with out congress. DUH!

Dem's took took control of both chambers in Nov. 2006 Dow Jones stock market was at 12,280.17 unemployment rate was 4.5 percent National Debt: November 2006 $8.5 trillion

Dem's took complete control in Nov-2008 Dow Jones Stock market was at 8,829.04 and unemployment was at 6.7% National Debt:$10 trillion

January 2009
unemployed persons (11.6 million) and the unemployment rate (7.6 percent)

March 2010

unemployed persons (15.0 million) and the unemployment rate (9.7 percent)

Yesterdays Dow Jones Stock market close 10,997.35

Current national debt:$12,727,689,408,267*

you mean put the same conservative idiots back in power that ruined the economy in the first place? Brilliant

Dem's took complete control in Nov-2008 Dow Jones Stock market was at 8,829.04 and unemployment was at 6.7% National Debt:$10 trillion

Utter lie and you know it. First there was a Republican president and complete control is a veto proof congress. The Senate had a 1 vote majority and Congress was not veto proof.

Bush's last budget ended in fiscal 2009 and when his reign was over he had accumulated 6.1 trillion dollars in additional debt. That doubled the national debt to 11.9 trillion dollars from 5.8 trillion dollars.

The rest of you fudging the numbers is just as bad as this. The unemployment figures are the residual effect of the recession that Bush created . So far all Obama has added to the debt is the stimulus

Jerry,

My figures are based on conservative estimates, but here are some links and please note some paint a far worse picture:

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba662

http://www.dallasfed.org/news/speeches/fisher/2008/fs080528.cfm

BLS-744646

Why would you want to cut up your credit cards? After you've paid them off, tuck them away in a safe place. Who couldn't use a $1000-2000 line of credit for emergencies?

Why not create your own emergency fund? Surely we can set aside money each month and use it only for emergency purposes. I know that is a scary thought because the American way of life is not to "save", but rather to "borrow" money for what we need.

dacincykid

I said

Where have you been??? As you see with health care Tarp ETC. the president can't do squat with out congress. DUH!

You say

Utter lie and you know it.

So what Did Bush Do with out congress approval???

First there was a Republican president

United States presidential election, 2008 The 56th quadrennial United States presidential election was held on November 4, 2008. Obama received 365 electoral votes, and McCain 173.

Oh I see where your going wets pway wid words shall we. Yes dare was a weepubican pwezident boohoo And he wost da ewection nobemebr 2008 . Typical Demorat and Republickan BS!You know dam well what I was saying so take your twizzler stick and you know where to put it. Complete control does not just mean a veto proof congress They over rid 4 of his veto's The bills had nothing to do with stopping the collapse make Fixing it or cutting federal spending and reducing debt ?

Complete control means -

111th Congress
Jan 2009 - Jan 2011

Not only did the Democrats win the Presidency, they also increased their majorities in both Houses of Congress. As of August 2009, the 111th Congress had 258 Democrats and 178 Republicans with one vacancy.

What did Bush veto of the Dem's. that would have changed this current mess for the good?

All Bush's veto's

1. Stem Cell Research Enhancement Act of 2005

H.R. 810.

2. US Troop Readiness, Veterans' Care, Katrina Recovery, and Iraq Accountability

HR 1591

3. Stem Cell Research Enhancement Act of 2007

S 5

4. Children's Health Insurance Program Reauthorization Act of 2007

HR 976
Would have extended and expanded SCHIP.

4. Children's Health Insurance Program Reauthorization Act of 2007

HR 976

5. Water Resources Development Act of 2007

HR 1495

The House voted to override the veto on 6 November on vote 1040 (361-54).
The Senate voted to override the veto on 8 November on vote No. 406 (79-14).

6. Appropriations: Labor, Health and Human Services, Education, 2008

HR 3043

7. Children's Health Insurance Program Reauthorization Act of 2007

HR 3963

8. National Defense Authorization Act for FY2008

HR 1585

9. Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2008

HR 2082

10. Food, Conservation, and Energy Act of 2008

HR 2419
The House over-rode the veto on 12 May on vote No. 346 (316-108). The Senate over-rode the veto on 22 May on vote No. 140 (82-13).

11. Food, Conservation, and Energy Act of 2008

HR 6124
The House over-rode the veto on 18 June on vote No. 417 (317-109). The Senate over-rode the veto on 18 June on vote No. 151 (80-14)..

12. Medicare Improvement for Patients and Providers Act of 2008

HR 6331
The House over-rode the veto on 15 July on vote No. 491 (383-41). The Senate over-rode the veto on 15 July on vote No. 177 (70-26).
So we see everything else they sent him he signed making them Just as responsible as he. Only a fool would say its Bush's Fault alone.

Don't worry - the interest rates on savings will rise, albeit slowly. From what I can see, we're headed for a return to the 1970's, when savings via CD's was actually a fairly smart, and definately safe, way of saving. American's definately were not major stock purchasers back then - we left that up to the "professionals". Savings is going to come back as the popular means by which you make a major purchase - you set your goal and save for the purchase. Another popular means by which to purchase items that require savings will be "lay away" plans. They started popping up last Christmas again. This is what Americans used to use instead of credit cards. Credit cards use to be primarily for the "rich and famous".

The up-side to all of this will be deflation - take housing for example. One reason home prices got so ridiculously high was because of low interest rates. As rates go up, prices will have to come down. Can you imagine purchasing a $300,000 home at 10% interest? I guarantee that we'll see prices drop even further with every percentage point rise in interest rates. Mark my word. . . . .

I bought a 5-year CD when Jimmy Carter was President. When it matured, I went to the bank to select something else. The teller almost had a heart attack and had to call her supervisor to verify the interest rate I had been earning. She was sure it was a misprint............16.5%. While it was wonderful for me, everyone else was paying the price with the costs of goods and services. Let's hope we never get there again.

J. Hicks - You must not be a builder. The houses are so high because they cost a lot to build. The craftsmen that build your homes are still making the same wages they were making 15 years ago. I don't think they can work for less.

Craftsmen? A lot of building projects I have seen over the last 10 years have been built by Mexicans ( a lot of them illegals). One case in my neighborhood, one of the illegals fell off a roof and they quickly got him out of there..........no ambulance, no nothing.

Keith-1952 - you've got to be kidding. Sure, the price of supplies goes up when the demand for those supplies goes up; simple law of supply and demand. But don't even go there about craftsmen, um, excuse me, illegal aliens, i.e. men from Mexico.

Maybe you're talking about construction workers making the same pay as 15 years ago, but honey, not the builders themselves. I once had a real estate agent representing a new housing development admit to me that the profit margin on new homes had gotten ridiculously high, and it was going to be hard for builders to adjust when prices peaked out and the bubble burst - and that it did.

Optomyst - I too pray that interest rates never go as high again as they did in the 70's and first part of the 80's. I can remember friends of mine purchasing their first homes in the mid-80's and paying 16% interest. My first car I ever bought was at 16% interest. Young people today have no idea just how incredibly low interest rates have come down, and everybody panics if they go up 1/2 a percentage point. But let's face it, NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE will be able to purchase a home or a car at today's prices at yesteryears interest rates. Even if rates go as high as 10%, which is really very reasonable, sales of automobiles and homes will come to a screeching halt.

Of course you had no complaints when Bush turned a $200 Bn surplus into a $600 Bn deficit but I guess that was Clinton's fault.

You need to study history a little more. This problem was not started by Obama, it goes back to Reagan and was made worse by every president with possible exception of Clinton.

The problem started with Roosevelt and sky rocketed in the 60's and 70's and has been left on auto pilot ever since. Clinton slowed it but only because republicans took the house in 94 and he was forced to compromise. Since then we have been borrowing like crazy. We should have taken our medicine and not bailed out anybody. Financial evolution only the strong and smart survive. We are selling ourselves to the chinese at the altar of the W.T.O.

But when the Republicans had the White House and Congress what happened? That is when we went from $200 Bn suplus to the $600 Bn deficit. Please come up with a way to blame that on the Dems. Oh, yes, they were in power in the Springfield school board. That caused it.

You didn't get mad when the Supreme Court stopped a legal recount and appointed a President.
You didn't get mad when Cheney allowed Energy company officials to dictate energy policy.
You didn't get mad when a covert CIA operative got outed.
You didn't get mad when the Patriot Act got passed.
You didn't get mad when we illegally invaded a country that posed no threat to us.... See More... See More
You didn't get mad when we spent over 600 billion(and counting) on said illegal war.
You didn't get mad when over 10 billion dollars just disappeared in Iraq.
You didn't get mad when you found out we were torturing people.
You didn't get mad when the government was illegally wiretapping Americans.
You didn't get mad when we didn't catch Bin Laden.
You didn't get mad when you saw the horrible conditions at Walter Reed.
You didn't get mad when we let a major US city, New Orleans, drown.
You didn't get mad when we gave a 900 billion tax break to the rich.
You didn't get mad when the deficit hit the trillion dollar mark.
You finally got mad when the government decided that people in America deserved the right to see a doctor if they are sick. Yes, illegal wars, lies, corruption, torture, stealing your tax dollars to make the rich richer, are all okay with you, but helping other Americans...oh hell no
(reposted from a repost...too true not to pass along)

Martine Wordplaya - well said. Thanks.

Honestly, these attacks on Obama are so yesterday and pedestrian. Everytime someone opens their mouth on Newsvine about Obama and our current economic situation in this country, they just make themselves look stupid. Enough already.

Martine -

Too bad Obama continues virtually everything you claim people weren't mad about. You do know, he had the opportunity to at least neuter the Patriot Act and instead strengthened it?

Too bad millions of us were mad, and government paid as little attention then as it is now.

Too bad the entitlement mentality is what is killing this country, and people willing to suck at the government tit in exchange for OTHER PEOPLE'S LIBERTY just want more.

What's really too bad is so many of you are fooled into thinking things are somehow actually different under Obama than they were under Bush than they were under Clinton and etc ad nauseum back to probably Harding. Things aren't different, we as a people are still being collectively screwed by the government. The only thing that changes over generations is which people get screwed and to what magnitude.

Why is this administration raising taxes, AND raising spending? This is no better, and will end just as badly, as stupid Bush's cutting taxes and raising spending. The common denominator? RAISING SPENDING. It's unsustainable, no matter which party or administration is doing it. And if Obama's rhetoric has you all moist and teary eyed, it's probably too late for you. He is NO different than any before him.

Pragmatic..."What's really too bad is so many of you are fooled into thinking things are somehow actually different under Obama than they were under Bush than they were under Clinton and etc ad nauseum back to probably Harding. Things aren't different, we as a people are still being collectively screwed by the government. The only thing that changes over generations is which people get screwed and to what magnitude."

So glad there are others who can see the bigger picture...maybe there is hope after all....

What do "entitlements" have to do with today's economy? Are you serious? Everyone keeps forgetting that Clinton cleaned up welfare rolls in the 1990's. Social security is something that all working persons pay into in the first place. And if not for unemployment insurance, which is paid into by employers, a lot more Americans would be on the streets today. Food stamps have been a necessity by many Americans today who have NEVER relied on government handouts before now.

If you want to play the blame game, point the finger at multinational corporations that have sent our jobs overseas and companies that pay for work VISA's so aliens can come right into our country and take our jobs. This is the root of the problem today - nothing else even compares to the fact that American jobs have been taken away from Americans - period.

Eddie..."Please come up with a way to blame that on the Dems."

I feel no need to "blame", and as a scientist I approach things from observing the processes and cause and effect. Do you not remember the Dems behaving in such a way that resulted in a backlash at the polls and put the Repubs back in the majority? Cause and effect. Same process is why the Dems are in control now.

We all have to grow up and get over this blame game and start demanding the politicians of whatever party is elected to do what is best for America in the long run.

Eddie - there never was a surplus. I can't believe you still believe Government lies. The US has not been out of Debt since 1940. The last time we tried to spend ourselves out of a depression. It won't work this time either.

Ok split hairs projected surplus duhh.

Of course there was no surplus Bush got rid of it before it happened. he cut taxes for the rich and gave it all awau. The debt when he took offices was 5.8 trillion dollars and at the end of his term 11.9 trillion dollars and some people want to return us to that level of incompetence. Bus did not do this by himself he did it with the same people dressed up in the sheeps clothing posing as teabaggers.

J.Hicks - "What do "entitlements" have to do with today's economy? Are you serious? Everyone keeps forgetting that Clinton cleaned up welfare rolls in the 1990's."

If you believe that food stamps and public assistance with Medicaid for single-parent families with no income are the only entitlements, you are completely wrong. I've worked in state gov't for over 25 years, and have watched the entitlement programs grow dramatically.

The NON-MEDICAL services which are given as entitlements under Medicaid grew exponentially in the 1990's during the Clinton years. County and State gov'ts gave up the old system of receiving annual block grant money to cover part of these services, and opted for the Federal Medicaid Waiver programs, which essentially required additional layers of gov't management, thereby, increasing spending at enormous levels.

THIS is part of the explosive growth of gov't for NO GOOD REASON over the past 20 years. It has created layers of b-cracy that are completely unnecessary. Add to this other giant Federal agencies, such as the Dep't of Education and multitudes of others. The average citizen has NO IDEA how much money is spent for absolutely NOTHING to run these large layers of Federal administration.

The STATES should be handing these issues, as the Constitution intended. Hence, today's growing movement for limited gov't. It is ridiculous for taxpayers to hand so much money to the Federal gov't, only to have the states then "beg it back" by agreeing to giant systems of Federal oversight.

THAT is what entitlements have to do with today's economy.

If you believe that food stamps and public assistance with Medicaid for single-parent families with no income are the only entitlements, you are completely wrong.

Well, you got me there. When I think of entitlements, this is what I think of, as probably most people do.

The average citizen has NO IDEA how much money is spent for absolutely NOTHING to run these large layers of Federal administration.

Consider me the "average" citizen. I can admit when I've been corrected. Thank you for the insight. Like the old saying goes, "you learn something new every day".

I'm here to learn, too, and to weigh the information provided by the collective knowledge and experience of others who post. There are MANY aspects of gov't I know nothing about, and have learned about from fellow Viners and folks on other news boards. I appreciate your response, because it appears you are open-minded and are also here to learn and consider what others have to offer.

Many of my colleagues and I have said for years that if taxpayers really knew how much money is wasted by the state and local governments under the guise of what are believed to be specific services, there would be a run on the state houses and the capitol. Sadly, we have been ignored when participating on committees to reduce spending, paperwork, and other waste, as it appears that "growing government" has been the model for the past 25-plus years.

Wouldn't it be interesting to see what condition the federal and state budgets would be in if we simply cut out multiple layers of Federal and state oversight (billions of dollars) which are completely unnecessary?

Wishing you the best as we continue to learn from one another!

I second that.

Interesting you would say that but you left out the fact that the biggest portion of the bill does not go into effect until 2014 and by that time we should not be n the same condition as we were left with. But then some of us read the bill.

Yes, some of us read the bill, which should compel a reasonble person with even a moderate understanding of economics to oppose the impact it will have on small businesses and state budgets, not to mention the negative impact it will have on individuals who will not be eligible for subsidies and would otherwise choose to opt out in order to manage their personal finances as they see fit to meet basic needs.

Then, there's also that lovely mandate, which is entirely unconstitutional. The gov't has absolutely no authority to mandate any citizen to purchase anything, and those who are supporting limited gov't (from all parties, mind you) do so for good reasons. If you don't understand those reasons, I suggest you read, "Liberty," by Thomas Flemming. If you want to have a discussion about the Constitution after you've read it, I'd be happy to oblige. I am not a party loyalist, so if you need to call names, go ahead. None of them will apply.

I agree that we should not be in the same condition by the time 2014 arrives, but I am hoping that will be due to a drastic change in administration and congress, and I plan to do my part on that... I value the liberties set forth in the Constitution, and it's time our gov't did, too.

We also need massive deflation

Rising interest rates will lead to deflation. I can picture it in my head - the balloon has popped, started slowly deflating, and the economy is shrinking. Without uncontrolled spending, which led to uncontrolled debt levels, the prices of everything from cars to homes will deflate as well.

Lou,

My father, a WWII vet who was grievously wounded in battle, once told me that at times, he wished he'd fought for the other side after seeing what was happening in this country. As a child, that struck me as harsh, but I've come to understand what he meant.

I'm not trying to spark a liberal/conservative war here, but let's all face facts: who controls the largest corporations? the finance industry? large segments of the media?

Who has engineered large-scale transfers of wealth by raiding workers' retirement funds in the '80s? S&Ls in the '90s? Who has consistently sold a bill of goods to the American voters (who I will readily admit should be more discerning in their choices) about smaller government, lower taxes, foreign threats, etc. until there is no longer a working safety net during hard times?

Yep, Conservatives on all counts. I'm not for fiscally irresponsible liberalism, but we are now at the end game of fiscally irresponsible conservatism, and where has it gotten us? I'm sure that the brainwashed will shout me down on this, but when I see a working man spout conservative rhetoric, it just sounds like he's toadying up to the bosses. Conservatism as now practiced in these United States is simply a doctrine of acquiescence to the robber barons who have bled this country dry; it's preparation for the coming feudal state.

Interesting read David. I don't think I would go so far as categorize all as conservatives though. But, good point.

David Wellman - that was a heavy read, but you forgot about throwing in the fact that our government engineered sending our jobs overseas for the sake of "globalism". I keep trying to figure out how "trickle down" economics was supposed to work with that one.

My job went to India, and today I earn less than half what I did then. Just had my car repoed last week by Wells Fargo, who took over Wachovia, because I was 79 days late with my payment. For the past 18 months I've struggled to make the payment on my 2003 used Avalon that I dearly loved. I've never purchased a new car, so I got it for $20,000 in 2007. Before my job was sent to India, they showed us a video about offshoring, the need for de-accenting classes, and the disruption to the culture in India as young people taking these American jobs are now able to leave home before marriage, purchase blue jeans and CD's, and in general live the American dream - albeit in India. I often think about the Indian that took my job - thinking about how their life improved while my life went down the tubes.

Nice Washington - thanks alot.

Hicks...what burns me about the current situation is the people like yourself who have attempted to be responsible now find themselves in a hole. You responsibly made your payments when you had a job. With the economy like it is there is little doubt the bank will lose money in the long run regarding the vehicle.

Hundreds of billions of dollars were given to the banks. So tell me why the banks couldn't have taken what little you owed on the car from those funds and pay your car note off? The bank ends up with all the money it loaned. It comes out ahead. You get some of your tax dollars back. Some of my tax dollars helped someone who needed and deserved it. And you still have a car that you need to find and hold a job.

Seems the little guy always gets the raw end of the deal...

hs321 at 10.4 - but it's not only the "little guy" any longer. Many Americans are facing devastating choices - what we need to be cautious about - and I mean this with sincerity - is other nations sneaking into the US, taking advantage of the perilous economic crisis - and I believe to some extent is what is occuring at the Mexican border. Struggling Arizona and Texas ranchers are being killed by drug lords and their property or land compromised.

Our banks are using borrowed money from the government - which creates instability - there is little or no collateral to back up that lending, and this lack of collateral is compounded by customers who have jobs at risk. Vulnerability.

David, I was not saying that the republicans are blameless in this, but the Democrats who have held office for quite sometime are killing us. They spend money like drunken sailors not caring about the effects because they all have their golden parachutes. The company that i worked for left the US for Mexico back in 2006 cutting my salary in half at my current job. I have a hard time paying bills but I pay them. I know how some of the people who post here feel being in the same situation. It really does not matter how we got here but we need to change direction fast. With the current Obomination that will not happen. We will get deeper and deeper in trouble as he tries to gain control over all we do. I saw an article about Michelle Obama and her Obesity program. They called her Americas First Mom, are you kidding me. There have been many first ladies whose contributions to America would leave Mamabama in the dust. Yet everytime this woman sneezes it is a world changing event. People need to get a grip and see it all for what it really is and make the important changes while we still can. As far as the military comment, most of my family fought in WW2 both American and Italian relatives. Some never made it back and I hate to think they sacrificed their lives for what we currently have. Some of my family who are still alive from that time will say that while times were tough Americans got together and tried to make it better. Today we have removed faith and God from all that we do teaching our children to believe in nothing. There aren't any positive role models anymore that kids can look up to and learn from. The family unit is a dinosaur. Holidays mean nothing anymore, eating dinner together as a family has been replaced by Mcdonalds drive thru. How can we be one as a nation when we can't even be one with our own families. It is a shame.

hs321 - Thank you. I was never late with a payment prior to having my job offshored to India. My car payment was not only on time, but always a week early. I scheduled my payments around my paycheck, not the due date.

I was always sending money, just couldn't keep it current with full payments after the plunge in my income. I'm supporting a family of four on the same income I earned in 1995, but prices have gone way up since then. Wachovia had the car loan and was working with me, but when Wells Fargo came in, they cleaned house. I never would have dreamed that a 7 year old car would be repoed at such an early stage. Somehow, I thought you had to be behind by 4 or more payments to get a vehicle repoed. Needless to say, it was a shock - and hurt like hell. I've owned MANY cars in my 46 years of life, and I've never had one taken away for non-payment. It hurts my pride as much as anything else. But some Indian is living a better lifestyle today because my job was taken away.

TARP was a band aid. The whole economic system needs to collapse and deflation to occur. The sooner the better.

Rising interest rates will ultimately lead to deflation - wait and see.

."Voting conservative will make no difference!." I agree. Their pockets are lined too.

America has not always lived on credit. That didn't start until around the 80's. In the late 70's early 80's I don't think visa existed. At least it didn't exist for me. We had a few cards but they were tied to where you shopped. Sear's, Montgomery Ward, Shell, Exxon ect. Now you have one card you can use anywhere. It makes it easier to abuse. Then there's debit cards so much easier than carrying cash or having to write a check. All those hassles slowed you down and made it harder for you to spend your money. Now it's just swipe and your money is gone. Don't worry you can pay the minimum at the end of the month plus 16%.

Google "dead peasant". That goes to show you what corporate america and our government thinks about the American worker!!

I am all for highly taxing those that use of the interstate system. Most Americans do not use it. Its only purpose is to flood all parts of the country with foreign goods and everyone pays for this?

Paul you must live in the northeast or in a city, because if you didn't you would know your statement was false.

I live in Rural Midwest....you must be a truck driver.

Paul

They don't have interstates in the mid-west? If your not in a city you must be a farmer. I mean there are cities in the midwest right? Oh yea, I am not a truck driver but I don't live in a city either. I'm retired..... for now

Paul

By insulting a persons trade "truck driver" just kind of shows how you can not think outside the box. When a the trucking industry takes a hit, it means higher prices for all of us as the end consumer! I suppose you consider people who serve your food when you eat out, stupid and therefore slaves to your arrogant whims........................People who have jobs today reguardless of the job are fortunate to have one! You must belong to the automotive union. I just love how auto workers say they built this country, but yet they never acknowledged the Steel workers when their jobs were moved out of this country! Now the auto unions will find out what it is like to become a fossil on the continent of North America!! Funny how no one gives a @!$%# until it happens to them!!!

Plus the weather has been bad. What were gas prices during the Bush years? 4.50 a gallon? Stop blaiming everything on Obama.

I would also expect the Dems to go after the speculators if prices keep escalating. I say name the speculators responsible. So eveyone knows who is guilty of the economic treason.

Don, you just admitted that gas prices were 4.50 during Bush years and next state that it was not his responsibilty. However, it is being stated that high gas prices (which have not yet happened) are Obama's fault. I love how anything bad is not the Republicans doing but if the same thing happens when the Dems are in power it is. Why let the facts get in the way of your biased opinion.

LOL .. you guys are forgetting that Obama was campaigning and promising change and good energy policy.

If this is the change or the good energy policy, I'm scratching my head looking for it. There's no upside in sight and you all are forgetting he's over 25% done with his first (and hopefully ONLY) term in office.

Paul, here is a lead on one of them. He is the secretary of the treasury.

Gollie if thats true.....I say whack em in the head....who ever they are. That would including anyone.

Good idea amigo!

Actually if inflation runs rampant you would have to payoff your $500,000 mortgage with probably 10 eighteen wheelers filled with cash.

Yes Clinton bares some responsibility....he governed much like a Republican. But there is no doubt this was a long term train wreck that started with Reagan and trickle down economics. The 1st Pres Bush called it "VOODOO" economics and he was right. Obama is now just starting to kill trickle down economics. We are returning to the pre Reagan economics. But it will take time for the wealthy to adjust to the new controls. Trickle down economics is nothing more than a "Entitlement" for the wealthy. But no more.

Paul, you are dreaming if you think this will effect top tier earners one bit! God, I wish half smart people would check facts and figures before you vote. Check targeted income tax on the rich years since the first year of income tax, The wealthy take home more income every time. How does this occur? Your ass pays the increase for them. That is if you actually work and pay taxes. I highly doubt anyone who earnes 35K- 200k would be so blithly ignorant of their own plight.

I love the blame the conservatives game being played. I suppose you thought it was good times when Jimmy Carter gave us double digit inflation, double digit interest rates and double digit unemployment following the same economic plan Obama is doing? Carter DID NOT inherit either. The memories of those on the left is indeed short and it almost like a mantra "blame the conservatives". First off, for all the whining about corporations, who has created wealth for this nation and jobs? The government? Not hardly. Second, what happens if corporate profits collapse? Can you say the end of America?

Trickle down economics had nothing to do with the mess we are in now. It had everything to do with the Democrats trying to make things "equal" and creating a disaster of biblical proportions in the financial markets. Freddie Mac is a prime example. That was the fault of the Democrats squarely and a huge reason we are in the mess we are now.

Jed you sound like a conservative who still has not accepted the failures of their economic policies. Well you are gonna have to. Game is over. I do not respond to insults .....sorry.

Saint George....Its not a game its reality. Accept your failures and move on. And also all the conservative got is "4 yrs of Jimmy Carter". But what about the 100 yrs before Carter? They were regulated and much more equitable. And its coming back....like it or not Trickle down is dead. I'll take 4 bad yrs for 96 good yrs every time. If you think Freddie Mac is responsible for this mess then you are still in denial. As for the "helpful corporations" yes maybe if you live in Mexico or China. Also I would note Corps dont make a single penny without the efforts of the workers. Who are taking back America from the thieves.

Everything is not obama's fault. He didn't start this train down the tracks. What is obama's fault is that he is doing the same old things and thinking the same old way as a true blue liberal 1960's democrat with a little european socialism thrown in. You can look at europe it doesn't work. We need to find a medium between the democrats all out socialism and the republican no holds barred capitalism.

I hear what you're saying, Paul, and agree with much of it (I'm not sure I can ever give any Bush that much largess - the family has been nothing but vultures since the days when Prescott was trying to side with the Third Reich), but what makes you think that the ruling 0.1% will sit still for any attempt to rein them in?

As Jay Gould (a contemporary of Rockefeller, Carnegie, and the other robber barons of a century ago) so famously stated, "I can hire half the working class to kill the other half for me". That sentiment still abounds here, yet when the working class tries to defend itself, you'll hear the cries of 'class warfare!' from the pundits.

txsecede....I most agree with you. But we had what your talking about, mostly prior to Reagan. Obama's change is real just a return to proven successful long term economics.

Paul

We had it with Truman, Eisenhower, and Kennedy. now the entitlements created in the 60's and 70's and the mismanaged social security system are catching up to us. We can no longer afford the staus quo. We shouldn't be doling out corporate welfare either or foreign aid for that matter. We can have a controlled adjustment or a stuation where everything implodes.

"We can have a controlled adjustment or a stuation where everything implodes".....yes its really win/win over the long term.......txsecede....I would just about vote for you for President as we agree on much......though I do agree with social security and national healthcare (but only because markets are not controlling it, anti trust exemption).

Paul, you write about much without getting to facts and figures. You stated that the american worker is taking back america from the corporate elite, right? To do what exactly? Give half their earnings to the gov? How do you see this as a good thing? Once again you evaded the main point of my questions. Taxes!!! So I will ask it directly to you. Will you gladly hand over one half of your earnings to the gov not counting sales tax and other hidden taxes. Yes or no. Don't bother with any long winded recitals about your vast knowledge of past political doings', just answer the question.

Didn't think so.

I also agree with many thing syou say Paul. Especially the part of the speculators being treasonous. Bush messed up in many ways and the speculators compounded on it and raped not only the american dreams, but the entire global dreams as well. Every person I know that lost a house or job, lost it because of speculators taking away their ability to pay their bills as every cent was going into their gas tanks instead of their mortgages etc.

The Clinton administration's White House Budget Director Franklin Raines ran Fannie and collected $50 million. Jamie Gorelick — Clinton Justice Department official — worked for Fannie and took home $26 million. Big Democrat Jim Johnson, recently on Obama's VP search committee, has hauled in millions from his Fannie Mae CEO job.

Curious 20.1 - And don't forget Franklin having to resign over scandal that he was fudging numbers to increase his bonuses. Interestingly the resignation was about, I believe, 4 months after he CSpan hearing where he said Fannie was fine and Barney and Maxine "Dumbest Woman in Congress" Waters were defending Fannie and saying there was a witch hunt against Raines.

AMEN!!!!!!

I'm stocking up on ammo as we speak (type).

Dude they won't be whining, they are dummied down enough to like being screwed so they can go to the doc for a headache. These sheep will take anything the gov will give, except actual work and taxpaying I mean.

Reagan didn't 'clear up' anything, he simply deferred payment - the bill has now come due. In case you hadn't noticed, the Federal deficit exploded on Reagan's 'conservative' watch, but illiterates took his claims at face value and thought that it was OK for them to continue financing their champagne lifestyles on pork-n-beans salaries, all the while blaming their problems on everyone else from immigrants to the Chinese government.

Stupid redneck knuckleheads will be the death of this country yet. Learn to read, then learn to do basic math, and then learn to check your facts before opening your ignorant traps.

False.

100% True my friend.

It trulyamazes me how little people understand about our economic system and how a 1-1.5% increase in interest rates can cause all of these ridiculous diatribes blaming this president or that president. Only Congress controls the purse strings and while Presidents can set an agenda on what they want, Congress has to vote for the funding. I realize the "buck" stops with the President, but we continue to elect Presidents who are "economically challenged" (I'm trying to be kind), have no understanding of past cycles and can see no further into the future then the next election. Those of us Baby Boomers who experienced 17-18% mortgage interest rates, and regional housing bubbles are insulted when Obama claims this is the worst disaster since the Great Depression. He was in college in the 80's, so he has no clue about what hard working people did to get through that period (ie couldn't "over buy" a house, so settled for less, did without the latest-greatest whatever, and learned to use credit sparingly). We made it through just fine. The problem we face today is one more of greed, societal entitlement and gotta have it now, which also seems to be the motto of our current (and past) Congress. We're in for a rough ride as history tells us things wiil get worse before they get better.

Solution? Higher taxes! Problem with solution? Tapped out payers!

Paul, back up your statement. You may be too young to have lived during the Carter debacle but I lived back then and know what went on. Until you have facts to support your assertion that the statement is "false," then I suggest you say nothing.

I am a non conservative who agrees with you in regards to Clinton. Big mistake. But dont for Reagan eliminating the Usery laws also.

That is too much like fact for Os followers to be able to cope with.

That's a garbage source that manipulates numbers to achieve the result they want. Use CBO numbers, an independent source unlike your link. The CBO states otherwise. What I find very scary is that people like you use this, Glen Beck..., to back up their biased opinions instead of the facts

The Clinton years was the beginning of the end,by the time Bush took over we were on the free fall. Don't blame Bush, Obummer or anyone, it is the American Economy that failed. When I bought my first house we had a 9.3% interest rate and were happy.(I put 30% down) and when we build our current home it was 13% to build. As Americans we are spoiled, time to pay the piper, Mr. Obummer isn't going to put a chicken in every pot. Next year taxes will rise and the economy will slow. You can't expand the government and not pay for it. You can't spend 3 trillion dollars on health care and not pay for it. Time for left wing nuts to look at reality and understand we can't spend all this money.(Bush was just as much as fault, but Odumbo is even worst)

Every President back into the late 60' stole money from the Social Security trust fund. Repub and Dem alike. Clinton had a surplus one year and that year he stole from the trust fund. Without that, he could not have had a surplus.

The CBO can legally only use the numbers supplied to it by Congress. Do you think Congress gives it the real numbers, or the numbers needed to get the answer it wants? Case in point, the CBO's estimate of the budget for Medicare was off by several times the actual cost. The same will be true for Obamacare.

Stole for SS? Try borrow. Better to borrow from money that is sitting idle than borrow from a communist country at high rates.

Eddie 802704-

I have an idea - why don't you enlighten us all and do a side-by-side comparison of the Steiner figures vs. the CBO figures and take into account the statement by hs321 about the CBO legally being only allowed to use the numbers supplied by Congress. Then if you still want to to go on about Bush's spending, why don't you enlighten us about how much money the DEMOCRATS Kennedy & Johnson spent on the Viet Nam War? In case you're not old enough to remember that bit of made-up fictional "war", it was something like 10 million a day for ten years, a huge sum for back then, and which this country is still paying for both financially and socially. Then come back and do a comparison of Bush's actions after an attack on American soil vs. the DEMOCRAT FDR's actions after Pearl Harbor. As much as you want to stick your head in the sand and pretend world-wide terrorism doesn't exist like your hero Clinton did after WTT Bombing 1 which directly led to WTT Bombing 2, thank god (and many of my military compatriots agree) we had a President that could do something more than stick his cigar in his intern's ass-tray! And, oh yeah, I've never watched Glen Beck in my life - I read newspapers, books & magazines instead of listening to one minute sound bites on MSNBC like you.

dacincykid...LOL! "borrow"...you can't be serious, "borrow". If they borrowed it, please provide a link to a government website showing how and when it was paid back. Even if they did, whose money did they use to pay it back?

Eddie 802704 -

Are you working on a response? Or maybe you can't find one? I'm still waiting!

Eddie, 23.3 - Research the CBO. It really is not indepdent. And, it does its calculations based on the numbers it is given. It has to assume that what the govt. tells it is correct. So if the govt. tells the CBO that a plan is going to save $X, then they have to use that number - regardless how wrong it may be. How do you think the initial figures showed the healthcare plan would cost a lot more than their "final" figures did? Kind of like appraisers during the housing boom giving mortgage bankers the magic valuation they need for the mortgage to be approved.

You people did not pay attention to the savings and loan failure. After that one I put my money in precious metals. I need money I got it from the profits. Screw the banks. BOFA paid 1650 employees bonus's of one million or more last year. So they have to make 16,500,000,000 or 16.5.billion dollars profit just to pay bonus's

Steve it doesent take a genius to know why people have stopped shoping. They dont know what the prices of groceries will be under this horrifying mess we have in office today. Zapper dont you think the little guy will get much smaller when they have to pay 15 more cents per gallon and in all probability if we do not rid ourselves of this obama nation the poor will be much more poor the middle class will be poor and the uper middle class will be lower middle class.

Obamas tax cuts are BS because you will pay more at the store for everything and at the pump.

This is clearly the worst administration horrifying hang over from the bush administration.

Half of the bush spending happend in the last two years the democratic majority.

Face it this administration will go down in history as THE WORST!

Zapper when the tax increases hit this country their will be yet another sharp downturn maybe you dont get it but i do seems simple to me it is simple math.

Welcome back Carter! Obama is Jimmy Carter on Steroids!

With an official unemployment of 10% (which means that the true unemployment is 20%), I would venture that the bulk of all new credit card debt is related to joblessness. That's a problem that Bush single-handedly created and one in which Obama can't be bothered to solve (starting a second war at the same time as mucking up the healthcare system apparently is more important to the Hologram of Hope).