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This is common sense stuff. Then again, a combination of lax driving standards and the disappearance of manual transmission equipped vehicles have rendered most drivers brain dead when it comes to vehicle handling skills.
To see just how nonsensical all of this is, read this: http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept
The link should have been to this editorial: http://www.caranddriver.com/news/car/10q1/toyota_recall_scandal_media_circus_and_stupid_drivers-editorial
WTH people? Is it THAT HARD to put the car in neutral? Do we ACTUALLY NEED MORE LAWS for something that takes a little common sense?
Many of these actions require that the drive-by-wire system be working and that it is accepting inputs normally. If it is not accepting inputs (that is, the code is in a tight loop) then pushing stop won't help, nor will shifting to neutral, reverse or park (all of which will be allowed but will not do anything) and switching the key to ACC or OFF will also have no effect. The computer controls these things. (And if you were successful at switching to OFF and were moving, the steering wheel would lock in a turning position.)
The wording in this article is directly from the Toyota webcast.
^^^^^^ my clutch is mechanically linked. By depressing it physcially disengages the transmission from the engine. There is no computer that can over-ride that.
Don't drive a standard? I don't care, that's your own fault.
* Runs around in circles screaming we are all gonna die!!!!!!*
Maybe something Darwin said applies here.... maybe?
Have a nice day! : )
RE: Last: While this is all common sense stuff, and I agree completely, the comment that said to turn the key off to the ACC point only, to prevent the steering wheel from locking in place was something that I, honestly, didn't think of. All the rest was very common sense stuff admittedly, unless of course, the driver panics during the event.
All in all, a good article in my opinion. No harm in reviewing for a possible unusual event.
Just press down the clutch ( :) I love my manual 5-speed transmission!
Common sense is maybe not so common?
yup. neutral it is. amazing how people in this country are so stupid.
This is gonna sound crass, and I really don't mean it this way. But the state trooper in CA that got the whole thing going, called 911 and talked to an operator at 120 mph. You mean to tell me that he had the presence of mind to talk on the phone, while driving that fast, and couldn't think of neutral?
When my kids start driving I'm gonna do 4 things: Drive a manual tranny; show them how ABS feels; show them what to do if car wont stop and show them how to change a tire.
the account I read said he did put it in neutral and park even but the car did not respond. Apparently there is some sort of safety to keep the car from shifting when it is going too fast
The guy hit 94 as a top speed. With the emergency brakes full on, the speed slowed into the 60's and 70's. He called 911 on a hands-free and repeatedly had to ask the operator to hold on while he maneuvered. When a CHP car caught up with him, the officer verified that the emergency brakes were smoking and could be smelled, that the brake lights were on solid and the driver's body was off the seat, indicating that he was pressing on the brakes as hard as he could. When the car started up an incline it slowed into the 50's and the CHP vehicle got in front of it. This time when the car was shifted into neutral, it could be turned off and coasted to a stop (the brakes were toast.) The guy had had received a recall notice, and had taken it to the dealer several days before and was told that his particular model was not a part of any recall.
Just as a matter of correctness --- no hybrid comes with a manual transmission. Not an option.
In drive-by-wire systems, the shifter is not connected directly to the transmission, the ignition switch is not connected at all to the ignition, if there is a start/stop button it is not connected to the ignition or the started. The brake pedal is not connected directly to the master cylinder. The accelerator pedal is not connected to the fuel system. They all go to the computer which interprets the inputs and sends signals to the devices (except the brakes, where the signal is sent to another computer which eventually sends it to the brakes. The emergency brake lever is still connected by direct linkage to the rear brakes as required by law. Welcome to 2010 and beyond. Drive-by-wire systems are much cheaper to install since all those tricky model-dependent linkages are eliminated. The problem is that they use digital computers to process analog inputs and the digital computers use "fuzzy logic" (go look it up) with which the Japanese are obsessed. This combination makes it impossible to completely or accurately test any given computer. Unlike aircraft fly-by-wire systems, there is no backup or redundancy in the system, so if there is an error, you are SOL.
Yeah.... just try shifting into neutral when you are pressing on the gas (or it is pressing on itself as in these incidents)... most transmissions will not shift into neutral when the engine is under a heavy load (such as hard acceleration) because to do so would mean suddenly unloading the transmission and subsequently over-reving the engine.
And even if you do manage to get it into neutral the engine is either gonna blow and you'll lose all power assist or possibly even seize in which case you could come to a much more sudden stop than you expect.
LOL kb! When we were kids learning how to drive, my step-dad wouldn't let us get our license until we could:
1. Change the oil. 2. Change a spark plug. 3. Change a flat tire. 4. Knew how to stop a car that didn't want to stop.
And we learned on a manual transmission, no automatics for us! To this day I remember these things.
Michelle today that would be called child abuse! : )
So then who is lying the most?
1. The politicians
2. The Toyota drivers
3. Toyota company
4. News Reporters
5. Prom dates that say they will still respect you in the morning
It's frightening how many people on the road today are unfamiliar with the vehicles they drive and how they operate. The information in this article should be common knowledge of anyone who gets behind the wheel.
At the least this Toyota issue is bringing to light the fact that drivers need to be educated about operating their vehicles in situations like this.
Toyota is trying to blame the victims. It's no different a legal strategy than saying that a rape victim dressed too provocatively and therefore deserved to be raped.
Their contention is that their computer drive-by-wire system is flawless since it shows no error codes and therefore it must be the victims who are at fault. An engineer demonstrated for a fee of $1800 (his department got 20% of that and Toyota claimed it was millions) and about 15 minutes of his time, that he could lock up the computer so that it refused all inputs and did not throw an error code.
The Prius they went out of control that is being shown extensively on TV happened while Toyota was making the webcast stating that the scenario was impossible.
Most people do not know how drive-by-wire systems work. They do not realize that if the computer is not working correctly, the shifter moves, but doesn't do anything, the brakes don't work (except for the emergency brake), the accelerator is not under their control, even the ignition switch and start/stop buttons don't work. I looked at a Prius manual two nights ago and nowhere is this spelled out for the driver ---- not even hints.
Hey Warren,
It's amazing how many people can't operate a door knob correctly.
I, too, am surprised at this. I had a 1974 Datsun pickup that would unexpectedly accelerate and what did I do, I put it into neutral whenever it happened. It did happen maybe three times while I owned the truck; I never let it get out of control. I also had a car that would die at every stoplight. I would slip it into neutral to play with the gas to keep it running. Maybe more people need to start out in clunkers to learn how to really drive. lol
I also had a piece of junk Datsun pickup whose headlights went out when driving at 65 on a very dark winding road. It took about 1 second to turn on the turn signal which gave me enough flashing light to get safely stopped. Some idea of how cars work should be required to drive.
No cars were drive-by-wire in 1974.
My concern is that IF this is actually an electronics issue, both the shifter and the start/stop button my have no effect. The automatic transmission shifter on these vehicles is not mechanically connected to the transmission... it simply sends signals to the computer - which controls the transmission. Similarly, the start/stop button just sends signals to the computer - which in turn starts or stops the engine. If the computer flakes out for whatever reason, neither of these remedies will have any effect.
That certainly seems to be what happened to both the woman who testified before congress about her runaway Lexus RX330 AND this guy in the Prius today. They both claim that they DID try to shift into neutral (as well as Reverse and Park) and tried to shut the engine off via the start/stop switch, but neither had any effect. Bot also claim that they tried the breaks (as hard as possible with BOTH feet in the case of the Lexus driver) and they did not stop the car. The Lexus' brakes were severely overheated afterwards and had to be replaced, so she was definitely on the correct pedal too! The Prius driver today said he could smell his brakes burning before the car quit. I suspect the same thing happened to the California State Trooper who died along with his family members in that Lexus. Surely, with all of his training and experience, he had enough presense of mind to try shifting to neutral and hitting the start/stop button to kill the ignition. I believe he, and these others DID try these things - and the computer ignored their requests. I have no proof of this, but the truth is going to come out sooner or later. I believe this is a much larger problem than incorrectly installed floor mats and sticky gas pedals.
Oh God, this was what I was afraid had happened but your post was the first place I read that suggested some of those people HAD tried all the known ways of stopping a car with a computer installed and the computer wouldn't respond. Computers are great .... until something goes wrong. I really miss my manual transmission cars....
Thats why the people who bought the vehicle after her have not had a single problem in 27,000 miles
Within all computerized systems there are sub-systems. Is it probable to have a car w/ a stuck throttle, inoperative gear shift and start/stop button, no way!
ITA, Poe. There is a lot more to this...
It's pretty well known to those of us who follow the auto industry, not just the Johnny-come-latelies, that Toyota has been experiencing a slippage of both quality and product direction. We understand that all automakers will experience recalls...there is no way to test EVERY combination of environment, driver behavior, etc., so these things will happen.
Toyota is talking out of both sides of its mouth here--their ads say "we've worked hard and come up with a fix", while their message to the auto industry and Congress is "we're still not sure if we know all the problems".
I can't beleive someone, anyone who has been driving a car for any amount of time, would not know how to put a vehicle in Nuetral. I can't beleive someone would say they drove a car for 20 mins. and say they where going 90 miles a hr. for that long. Sounds like to me someone got caught in a speed trap, or used his head and said, hey was'nt speeding, my throttle got stuck. Come on people, use your heads for something else than a shoulder rest.
Sure, this guy toasted his brakes and did thousands worth of damage to his car to avoid a speeding ticket... Right!
And it's looking a lot like he did try to put it in neutral but the transmission would not shift (not surprising under hard acceleration really).
If you need to practice any of the things mentioned in this article, BURN YOUR DRIVER LICENSE and TAKE THE BUS.
I am sick and tired of totally ignorant drivers doing stupid things on the road. LEARN HOW TO DRIVE.
Oh and, BTW, PUT DOWN YOUR DAMN CELL PHONE.
Amen
This article is just dumb.
If every move you make is "interpreted" by a computer, as opposed to a direct mechanical connection, there is nothing you can do to get the car to stop if things go awry.
Here is a clip of an airliner that some genius fitted with a computer to control its landings. I have no problem believing that a car's computer will have just as little trouble deciding that you, the driver, don't know what you're doing and will do its own thing, regardless.
I really like my old Fairlane. A little WD-40 and voila! No sticky throttle!
Yeah, my '99 Rover has no computer problems. And when I tell to do something, it does it! Period!
"Christine" !
20 minutes with the throttle stuck, are you kidding me! you can't figure out to put the car in neutral after 20 minutes, that is a joke! this is not a realistic scenario...
I guarantee that all of these people who claim they were "pressing on the brake as hard as possible"..... weren't. Simple as that. They most likely paniced, pulsed the brakes, maybe gave it an honest attempt for a few seconds... then gave up and decided to pick up a phone and call someone :)
So Tom, how do you explain the Prius in California, where the brakes are now metal to metal? That guy was applying his brakes...the cop saw the brake lights.
If you don't already know this common-sense stuff, you shouldn't be driving a car! I've been a mechanic for nearly 30 years and I've never seen a car that you can't turn off, put into neutral or depress the brakes so hard that you can't stop a car, all at the same time. This is as bad as the person who sued McDonald's because her coffee was hot -- NO DUH! I pray that I'm never driving near anyone so inept, although that's impossible because I live in New Jersey! :)
The toyota drivers should just pull into the nearest toyota dealership if they can't stop .Pull right onto the sells floor ..oh what a feeling .
lol ...its happened to me on my first car a 71 plymouth satallite sebring cable shredded i put it in neutral and pulled over i was either 16 or 17 at the time .
semper paratus ;-)
Doesn't it seem kinda funny that 2 years ago Toyota outsells GM for the first time ever. One year ago the government bails out GM. Now the most popular selling brand of car in the country, all of a sudden, makes the worst and most dangerous cars every put on the American road. Sounds like a propaganda campaign to me. And, for the media to be driving it into the ground (no pun intended) just proves to me that the federal government, who now owns such a larger stake in GM, is behind the whole thing.
Oh lord. Now I'm in trouble.
Everything sounds like a conspiracy to a crazie.
Hear, hear, sharky. If the government WERE competent enough to mount a thoughtful, involved conspiracy like this, we SHOULD let them control our lives!
But guess what, they aren't.
I think this guy is taking Toyota for a ride! I believe some time soon the truth will be revealed. I wonder how much he was paid in a back room by the US Auto Industry to put on this show? I hope Toyota fights back and starts debunking some of this @!$%# so we can all get on with our lives. What a joke! I will believe this story when Toyota themselves releases a report that shows without a doubt that there was a computer malfunction of some kind that caused this to happen. Until then, I remain a skeptic and blaming conspiracy for the whole Toyota drama!
Hellooooo...folks. This article is not about cars. It is simply an analogy to soften the real story, which is that we all need to learn how to stop the reckless (and feckless) spending in Washington when it has already gone out of control. MSNBC does this all the time for the thin-skinned-libbies that have a hard time accepting the truth.
out-of-control car = economy
stuck throttle = Obama
throw-it-in-neutral = vote in November
Remember Hal 9000 in "2001: A Space Odyssy"? Seems Toyota is having a similar problem...ramdom rogue-computers. Whats next? Maybe a car psychiatrist will determine that some of the Toyota computers were fondled before they were installed.
"Stop the car! Stop! Brakes, brakes!"
"I can't do that, Dave."
This story sound fishy. With all of the hype going on everyone in the world knows to put the car in neutral, it is still a mechanical link to the transmission on ALL cars. If a California policeman doesn't know that, he or she should not be driving. Instructions were given to the driver from the loud speaker on the police cruiser. Sounds like the driving test in all states needs to be more than 20 questions.
But wait there is more, soon steering will be drive by wire. No mechanical link from the steering wheel to the steering components. A motor, "computer controlled" will turn the car. Hey, Ford &Lexus (uh-oh) now advertises self parallel parking. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28433921/ns/business-autos/ or Google search <self parking car>. Now in a court of law everyone can plea," it just turned by itself before killing the pedestrian (spouse?)".
I don't get it. Toyota says to turn the engine off if your vehicle is still accelerating (after you've attempted to get it in neutral) and supposedly you can steer your car to safety to the side... but yet further down, the article says to not turn the car completely off (just to ACC) or you will lose your steering. If people didn't finish the end of the article, they'd just turn off their car completely if it were still accelerating wildly.
I think the instructions should be a bit clearer for the American public or else there could be more accidents. I own a Camry--and fortunately it's a '99, but I still want to be prepared no matter what car I drive...
Public needs to be aware and watch out for these menacing vehicles; suggest every non toyotDA have tire strapped to rear end in case of rear end impact by toyoDA.
Do you really think soccer mom driving a tacoma while using ipone and doing nails is going to have time to put into neutral / turn off ignition.
Yeah...brilliant. On some cars, you'll lose the power steering, of course. What they forgot to tell you is that nearly all newer cars have an anti-theft device that locks the steering wheel in place when the key is off. In a panic situation, you think a driver's going to pay attention to whether or not the key is in "on," "off," or "accessory?" They panic, switch it off, try to steer, and clunk. Locked steering wheel. Bad idea. Even worse on one of these fly-by-wire Priuses (Prii?) where everything's electrically operated or assisted.
How about just going back and buying that 1971 'Cuda you always wanted? Poorer gas mileage and emissions, but it would run when you told it to and stop when you wanted it.
It's the "Terr-est" GWB
There is not one single mass produced car in the world that has enough power to totally overcome it's brakes. I have argued this point for years and proven it with vehicles ranging from 60's muscle cars with 400-500 horse engines(and brakes nowhere near as good as the ones we have now) to new pick-ups. If the brakes got smoked in a Prius, the driver did not push the pedal all the way to the floor. Bring down the speed, pull to the side and ride the guard rails if necessary. The key to stopping a 'runaway' car? Don't panic.
the best way to stop a runaway is don't buy a toyoda. their cars & trucks are overrated garbage. and their lovers are america trash.