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"For most of the past 70 years, the U.S. economy has grown at a steady clip, generating perpetually higher incomes and wealth for American households. But since 2000, the story is starkly different.
The past decade was the worst for the U.S. economy in modern times, a sharp reversal from a long period of prosperity that is leading economists and policymakers to fundamentally rethink the underpinnings of the nation's growth.
It was, according to a wide range of data, a lost decade for American workers. The decade began in a moment of triumphalism — there was a current of thought among economists in 1999 that recessions were a thing of the past. By the end, there were two, bookends to a debt-driven expansion that was neither robust nor sustainable."
If you listen to conservatives, everything was fine & dandy until 1/21/09!!!!
That's the party line, and they have to repeat it often or they will be ostracized by their own party.
They will name that the BUSH years, not the greatest depression ..... LOL LOL LOL
Keep the crappy Asian imported goods coming into this country and you will see a further decline for the next decade! Oh I forgot, We owe China almost one billion dollars in loans for handing out bailout bonuses!
THE GOVERNMENT AGAIN FAILS OUR NATIONAL SECURITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The main culprits of this "Lost Decade" can be summed up in 5 events.
The enactment of the CRA (Community Reinvestment Act) which opened the door to poor lending practices to all levels of income and began the housing bubble over 30 years ago.
The enactment of the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act which repealed the Glass-Steagal Act. This allowed banks to act as investment and commercial banks and insurance agencies. The creation of CitiGroup is the poster child of this error.
NAFTA. The culmination of our export industry being subjected to UNFAIR taxes, levies and tariffs. This not only prevented expansion it, along with other enactments, drove our export manufacturing industries offshore.
Irrational taxation of industries. Having the second highest corporate tax rate, second only to Japan which had its OWN Lost Decade, should have warned our government of these practices.
Union expansion and destructive policies that created less ability to compete in the new Global Economy. The irrational wage, benefit and legacy costs, although good for the untrained work force, created a bubble of disaster for corporate and industrial growth.
These factors combined to create the collapse of our once proud export manufacturing industry and the inherent housing bubble to burst. This combination in ANY economy can only result in what we currently find ourselves in.
The massive loss of industry, and its attendant jobs, along with the irrational exuberence of buying homes with little to no initial payment could only result in financial collapse.
Again this article incorectly blames the collapse on the past decade. This "Lost Decade" began over 30 years ago, and with more government ineptness during that time and legislation that accelerated it, there was no way the events we are experiencing could be avoided. The addition of the recession of 2000, the worst TERRORIST attack in world history and its own recession, a natural disaster of epic proportions and finally the collapse of the industrial and housing industry could only end in what we have today.
But then again our Lame Stream media is no longer a journalistic profession, it is a sensationalistic megaphone for recent events. If any of our media would truly investigate the current worlds financial collapse the truth would be obvious. But we know the media has its own agenda and unfortunately it is NOT to provide information, its only entertainment and profits.
You're right about this beginning 30 years ago. Trickle down economics didn't work then & didn't work for Bush either!!!
Gramps-1235375
Neither is it obviously working for Obama. If you don't think his "economic recovery" isn't based on trickle down you are as deluded as those who blamed it before. This trickle down unfortunately has poured TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS into the government with the unbelievable claim that it will somehow "trickle down" to the consumer.
You nor I nor anyone else will EVER find out where most of the Failout, $timulu$, Omnibus budget and TRILLIONS from the Feds off-balance sheet losses EVER WENT!!!
So keep bashing "trickle down" as it keeps slapping you in the face RIGHT NOW!
I don't have to wait for trickle down. I have plenty of money. In fact, I have more now because this economic downturn has provided me w/ many opportunities. So even though I'm comfortably retired, I haven't passed up all the great bargains out there. After all, isn't this, and hasn't it always been, the American way?
Why in hell would anyone listen to a Conservative,,they create these problems and then give the job of fixing it to the Liberals,,,time after time the same scenario plays out,,again,,,who but another Conservative would listen to one!
Another legacy building fact brought to you from the fine folks of the Bush administration. Hey, it's all Obama's fault.
What kind of lala land is the Post living in. Amazing that there was not one mention of 9/11. That had a monumental affect on the economy. In fact, the economy bounced back quicker than people had anticipated. W. and conservatives had warned thoughout the decade of "easy credit" problem. But, they couldn't get anything done as the typical liberal line is that if credit is restricted to the creditworthy, then it is racist. Heck, the libs still haven't learned as Barney Frank and company are still trying to make credit easily available. The reality is that until 2007 the economy was bustling along. It probably would still be in pretty good shape if the libs, including Paulson, hadn't used it as political fodder. There was no reason to "panic". But, creating a panic and turning it into a "crisis" handed the election to the dems. Osama and the libs now think that all you have to do is have a strained voice and call something a crisis and that gives them an excuse to further abuse the government and the American people. But, people are finally waking up to the fact that the real crisis is being created by the government and the liberals who are driving the country into the ground.
The undisputable fact is that the private sector has created all of the wealth that this country enjoys. The more barriers you put in the way of the private sector, the less wealth is created and the poorer people are. No government dominated system has ever been successful. Every powerful central government has ever done is keep the people down and stiffled incentive, ingenuity and prosperity. The only people who end up ahead are the ruling class. Even then, it is questionable as to whether they are actually ahead, just it appears so.
Now the libs have rapidly created a situation where it will be extremely difficult to rise up again as the deficit has increased so fast it makes one's head spin. Trillions of dollars are spent and the libs don't seem to care at all about accountability at all. So far, we have nothing to show for it except larger government. Now, as of yesterday, they have increased taxes and are poised to increase it even more. It doesn't take an Einstein to figure out that if people have less money in their pockets, they are going to spend less. Likewise, businesses aren't going to invest in growth if they are worried that they would be digging a bigger hole for themselves that would put them out of business.
For those who trust the libs: Why would you trust anyone who is supposedly an "expert" in their field when everyweek the unemployment figures are "unexpectedly" higher or even lower. The only people who aren't surprised by the unemployment rate of around 17% are conservatives who understand economics and easily saw and predicted this coming.
Gramps, You are exactly right about the Bush years. He came in reduced taxes, but then increased spending by 64%. I think that and the 2 wars that he got us into, one under false pretenses was the causative factors of this economic disaster. He knew and most Americans who went to the grocery store knew we were in a recession 18 months prior to his leaving the White House, but would not even utter the word, because he was afraid that it would affect the election. It affected the election alright, so much so that John McCain, distanced himself from Bush and his policies. You cannot at anytime, increase your spending when you have more than 50% less money coming in. How would our budgets withstand that? They wouldn't and neither did ours in this country, and that was the causative factor, that affected so many different aspects of our finances in this country. The public was duped because many believed Bush/Cheney/Rove and their rhetoric. I do believe that Bush was duped by Cheney and that now he has enough sense to keep quiet, while old big mouth Cheney, keeps on yapping. I wonder what he thinks he accomplishes? People recognize him for what he is an old, sick white male that has problems being out of the limelight and is washed up.
You seem to leave out one thing regarding the creation of wealth by the private sector. It wasn't just the investors spending money to keep people working, it also involved the workers themselves whose hard work enabled the the wealth of the investors to increase, in many cases quite rapidly. The outsourcing of jobs to other nations did not help to increase the wealth of workers, it only increased the wealth of investors. If we are to ever to recover from the current economic depression, people must first be working in this nation so that they have money to spend. The current milking of the unemployment insurance cow will not help us in the long term. One day in the not-to-distant furure it will be milked dry and business profits will take another nosedive. Recovery can only begin when people start getting paychecks once again. It is just that simple. Enougth said!!
Live To Ride - If we owed China only one billion dollars, then... well let's just say it would be a different world. In 2009, our national debt to China was 772 billion dollars.
As far as the importation of "crappy Asian goods" goes, I currently drive 2 cars, both Japanese imports. I suspect the screen with which I am posting this message, and probably the one on which you may read it, were both made somewhere in Asia. You can call these products many things, cursed imports, symbols of the decline of American industry, or good products for low[er] prices. You really can't call them "crappy".
There are things which can be done to stabililze American industry. Building a wall around our borders or outlawing all imports are not among the viable options.
My suggestion for the younger generation.....marry someone who is wealthy, with no prenup, in a state with 50-50 community property laws. This rule applies for men also, now that there are so many divorced women with half of their ex-rich husbands wealth who are now single cougars. There's also a wealth of successful single businesswomen who will be just as stupid with their assets when it comes to love as men have been for decades.
comment #1.13 And my neighbors (he and his wife have great jobs) across the street are selling their $130,000 home they own free and clear and already bought another for $350,000! They and you, as well as a few others are statistical aberrations, LUCKY ONES in an unlucky decade. That unfortunately doesn't change the LARGER PICTURE!
Many of the people who are out of jobs voted Republican for the last 30 years.
Therefore, it looks as though they got what they voted for.
Witchrunner But, they couldn't get anything done as the typical liberal line is that if credit is restricted to the creditworthy. I beg to differ with you. Congress does not control credit or lending....it is the FED.
Corporate American Greed has allowed the Bases of American Manufacturing, Shift / Move to Asia for Cheap Labour to Break American Unions and Organized Labour. They gave away American Technology in return, training an Asian Society to give back lead lined product to be purchased in North American Retail Malls.
If there are No Manufacturing Jobs left in North America, how can these Unemployed Middle Class, North American People buy Asian Imported Product or afford to buy?
These Economic Balance Recessions have never touched the Food Industry til this time and turned into the worst depression in over 40 years.
American CEO's who Mastermind this Shift in Economic Balance got their Golden Handshakes and Bailed Out.
They know what would happen, they don't care, the Rich Got Richer, the Poor Got Poorer.
Corporate American CEO’s should pay for this depression they created; after all they're the only people with money to pay, the first to come to the people’s government to bail them out.
The only people this is news to is Republicant's.
Democrats/Liberal/Progressives/Lefties whatever you want to call us have been warning about this for the entire Bush presidency. But any criticism of Bush during his presidency was unpatriotic (wonder where that patriotism went?) and now any criticism of Bush is looking back.
Witch?
You think 9/11 was really bad enough that it took down an entire decade of the greatest economy on the planet? Sounds like maybe you think the terrorists might have already won then? You think 9/11 was bigger then 2 wars, not paid for in the budget but borrowed from this decade, tax cuts to the rich to the point Reagan wouldn't even go, serious deregulation of the financial market allowing your mortgage to be used as money and leveraged up to 70 times its value, health care prices outpacing inflation and sucking up wages thus the stagnant wages throughout the decade? Really 9/11 was bigger then those or anything else, immigrants, under-producing Americans, outsourcing, etc... really?
Bush built an economy on credit, it crumbled, and now its his decade, just like the 90's were Clintons (good or bad) and the 80's Reagans (good or BAD). Bush broke it, Bush bought it, Bush owns it, the 00's.
Put all of the economists and politicians together that sre trying to figure out how we got into this situation. And, there would not be enough of the true reason to make a difference. Everyone is turning their eyes away from the true reason that we are in such dire situations. The real reason is that we do not have jobs for the American worker,Duh. And the reason that we do not have jobs for the Americans is that for the last 75 or so years the Automobile industry has supported the economy. Just like the steel industry and electronic & textile industries before them. But, we as dumb Americans thought that we as individuals we would be better off financially if we bought a cheaper foreign automobile. Well guess what you are now paying the big price. Sending our money to foreign countries is what got us where we are. I know, some of you will say. That the imports are building a lot here in the United States. True, they have come in and given some of our workers jobs. But, for every 5 foreign autos sold in the U.S. 1 American loses their job. These are not all directly associated with the domestic auto. These are people that serve our communities. Like firemen,policemen,teachers,etc. So until the auto industry or another industry is established. We will have un-employment problems. Politics is not the answer, it is the mindset of the American citizen
Blame Bush if you want to, because he didn't make much of an effort to stop what was obviously going to be a multi-layered problem of overleveraging on the part of government, banks and consumers.
But realize a couple of things:
The fiscal policies of the Obama administration are basically THE SAME as Bush's. Obama is, for all intents and purposes, Bush III.
Bush was less conservative than many of the Blue Dog Democrats in Congress right now. I know a lot of you have trouble wrapping your minds around this because he was a Republican, but he was NOT conservative. No conservative spends like he did, creates unfunded mandates and entitlements like he did and allows quasi-government agencies like Freddie and Fannie to run amok like he did. That's just the tip of the iceberg of the NON-conservative things he did. His approval rating was in the low 30's when he left office, he barely had his right-wing nutjob religious fanatic base behind him.
The system we have in this country, going all the way from Wall Street on down to the widget maker on Main Street, only vaguely resembles anything close to capitalism. You want to blame "capitalism", you're barking up the wrong tree here in the good ole' US of A. What we have is a bastardized version of what USED to be capitalism, before the damn government inserted itself into EVERY SINGLE nook and cranny they possibly could and started regulating all the wrong things, and ignoring all the right things.
Regulation in this country at this point serves the government and special interests - NOT THE PEOPLE. That, in a nutshell, is why it has failed. The government has overstepped it's bounds on so many different levels that to blame banks or manufacturing or whatever, WITHOUT blaming government, is just being willfully ignorant.
And Obama is doing the SAME THINGS.
If he does not STOP doing the same things, and get the government the hell out of the way, we will have another lost decade. And you won't be able to blame Bush.
Are you kidding me? We have endless bailouts and money printing, record deficits and debt, record foreclosures and rising unemployment, and the highest Debt to GDP ratio in history.
And we have at least 60 trillion of unfunded obligations for Social Security and Medicare on the horizon and the financial crisis is "for all practical purposes over"???
It's just getting warmed up.
The failing economy in the US has to do with core values and education, not which political party one believes - the downsizing of America goes to the core values of our society - greed, instant gratification, corruption, out sourcing jobs, fiscal responsibility, credit, bad loans, too much government in our personal lives, corruption, bad trade agreements, entitlement programs, government bailouts, lack of personal responsibility.
Americans should take responsibilty for their own and rebuild their own country/lives, before taking on "nation buildung".
G Smith, you're Right..Tumultuous Greed of The American Corporate and Government Empire..it's obvious their in this together as ONE..there is No Easy way OUT..We all became servant/ subjects to them as Taxpayers and borrowers..that was their Masterplan, we're all owned by them..we don't Oblige or Obey we suffer..one must remember, slavery was built on Greed and in today's subtle senses it's still their..we are Cohorts to slave labor of Foreign Countries..the Picture is still the same, only today the problem is Bigger..and sadly enough we became part of that Bigger Picture as poor / Common Americans for that Tumultuous Greed.......
Unfortunately, we all contributed to this. There were other factors that have contributed to this over the bills in congress. Plain and simple, the Asian markets have come from the third world into the first. When we tore down the wall, we also opened up Eastern Europe to expansion as well. Those economies are growing due to a massive labor force which because of supply and demand of jobs. This means that you have more people than jobs, thus driving down the price one has to pay for a job. The same thing is going on here.
Technological advancements have made it where we need less people to produce items all the way around and at a better quality than we would have had 150 years ago. As technology continues to evolve, the problems we have here and abroad will become exasperated. Soon, those Asian markets will come to the same problems we are having today. Technology will become cheaper than people. That has been proved time and time again.
Companies are not concerned with people needs, they are concerned with profit with the least amount of investment. The question is what do we do when the population grows even more and due to technological advancement, there is less jobs out there. We cannot force the majority people to live in filth over an economic ideal. What do we do when this comes to be? The same problems we are having now will be same problems we will be seeing in another decade or so. There will just be different players on a different scale.
until liberals took control in 2006
witchrunner
If the economy was so great according to you until 2007 then why did the Bush administration have to add 4.9 trillion to the national debt, doubling it btw, and only create 2.3 million jobs in 8 years????? Hell Jimmy Carter's term created more jobs then both Bushes combined almost twice as many as those two did in 12 years he did in 4..... And we all know how much of a terrible President Carter was to you Regan/Bush fairy tale people.
Clinton had a surplus and was PAYING down the debt and created 23 million jobs in HIS 8 years but you conservatives are still trying to say the Bush years were better. I know your going to say it was the Rep Congress that did it not Clinton right? Then why did Bush have to add so much debt when he had a Rep Congress for 6 of his 8 years? All we got in Bush's years was a bigger mortgage for houses we couldn't afford as we just borrowed for everything we ever wanted and foolishly thought that our houses would pay for it all without any pain.
You can say it was all the Dem's fault as much as you want to but it doesn't change FACTS sir they are always there staring you in the face. Bush was in charge when this happened and that's why he takes the fall. He was in his speeches saying how hard it is to buy a first home for many people and he pushed the private and public sector to offer up low and no down payments to those people for the sole reason that it generated profits for our "service economy" he told us we had to spend to perpetuate. he could have told the Fed to raise interest rates and stop the bubble but when all his Wall Street buddies are raking in trillions in fees and bonuses why stop the party till daybreak..................
All that being said ALL politicians are scumbags and need to be out in their place which is out on their ass. ALL politicians have to raise so much cash to get elected they no longer care about you and me they only care about the super rich and will continue to do so until we have real campaign finance reform.
USARogue
That was one hilarious diarrhea commentary; I think I used the typical republican line... opps.
Everyone else,
Maybe now republicans will stop watching Fox News. Don't go to the dark side and divide this country, we are all in this together, act like it!
We do need to correct our news agencies so they can be non-for profit and be completely impartial as a judge. Wait, the Judiciary Branch also needs a kick in the arm to be justice again.
witchrunner
What kind of lala land is the Post living in. Amazing that there was not one mention of 9/11. That had a monumental affect on the economy. In fact, the economy bounced back quicker than people had anticipated. W. and conservatives had warned thoughout the decade of "easy credit" problem. But, they couldn't get anything done
===============================
You seem to be the one living in lala land. bush couldn't get anything done? You're right, he couldn't even with the fact that the rethuglicant party controlled the White House and both chambers of Congress. Like all pols they are in it for their own well bdeing.
You need to quit drinking the rethug swill.
Realistic Ed -
You've joined the ranks of the willfully ignorant.
Much of what led to this meltdown and the lost decade was ALREADY IN PLACE before Bush took office. Specifically, the CRA, Gramm-Leech-Bliley, NO Glass-Steagall, NAFTA, CAFTA, etc etc etc.
Bush totally ignored, or did not try hard enough to correct, the problems that were obviously starting to build. He is absolutely guilty of that, and of being a liberal in conservatives clothing. He spent, and spent, and spent. He took us into two wars that there was no money to pay for.
Obama is obviously not a conservative, YET he continues most of the same fiscal policies. WHY do you not see that?
The country really went to hell under Bush (arguable the worst president in American history) and the so called conservatives. And now the new guy has to try to clean up the republican mess and what kind of cooperation does he get - obstructionism and big fat windbags like Rush (an appropriate name for the drug addict) hoping the country will fail and a bunch of Tea baggers dressed up like clowns waving guns and pictures of Obama as Hitler – what a pathetic bunch.
The American economy is a house of cards, built on a foundation of debt and speculation and fueled by consumption levels that cannot been sustained. I have been saying that since about 1990, but nobody listened to me because I turn a wrench for a living. Many, many good points above, USARouge nails a lot of it and Pragmatic to a Fault does too. The lesson from the decade I learned is through a variety of bubbles Wall St conned the American public, gambled with your life savings, kept the profits and stuck you with the losses, has taken every dime you are going to make for the next 10/15 years and by the way you still owe on your credit cards. And most Americans are either too apathetic, uneducated about financial matters like this or are walking around in a fog of electronic distractions to care.
Phazfun
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!
And your comment was so enlightening.
First of all I truly appreciate you read my comment, there may still be hope for you and the others who are programmed so badly.
Why is it when you Lieberals are presented reasonable solutions to the problems, OTHER THAN YOUR PARTY PROPAGANDA, your only response is useless blatherings?
Or.
ROTFLMAO!!!!!
And they should watch what? MSNBC? NBC? ABC? LMAO!!!! Will these bring them to the LIGHT??????
You Lieberals are incredible. Just because you have no ability at independant thought and need your Lame Stream Lieberal Media and your pathetic "PARTY" to think for you and tell you what to say is NO reason to tell others to do the same.
Witchking
LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lemme guess!
LIEBERAL?
You embarrass it well.
Documentary filmmakers have been explaining and warning of things to come for 15 years. People either are not savvy or just complacent.
examples: "King Corn" a film made about ethanol and corn production, while you would think this subject matter is bland and boring- it is not and the movie points out serious facts which lead to our social demise.
"What Would Jesus Buy" also an odd film and documentary that contains information which is a precursor and details the plight of American store keepers and workers.
"Maxed Out" a documentary about credit card companies...
"The Corporation" a film about multi-level corporations. Why Americans don't understand their culture and refuse in mass, then complain is almost a joke.
Oh well, better luck next year...I wrote to Oprah Winfrey and posted reviews on a number of these films, a few years ago.
if your short on money- tell your public library to order those films, and find out if they censor material for the "public" to view.
You will find out from these movies where the jobs went, what happened to farmers, companies, plastic and be entertained. You should back track to find answers, the problem was created years ago.
No matter what...
We were all suckered into this mess, led by leaders who based their economic theology on the money that could be made for the moment instead of looking into the future with principles in place that would insure this nation from a total collapse.
We have wandered into the new world order of things and are ill-prepared to deal with the world system. We are not looking out for the best interests of our nation, one that has the lasting resources to help us continue in sovereignty without having to completely rely on other nations to prop us up. We are unwilling to pull back and take a look inside because we are now sold out to outside interests.
The U.S. does not have much in the deck to deal with. Other nations know this... hell... the common man knows this. Unless we develop from within we are cooked.
The biggest mistake we have made is to put ourselves last on the totem poll while we were gourging on the wine of temporary fulfillment. We became the debtor nation and owe way too much.
all of this is SO OBVIOUS to anyone who isn't completely brainwashed. it's not rocket science; this is what they teach in introductory college economics.
when you put all the $$$ in the hands of a select few the middle class suffers and aggregate demand erodes. you can supply all you want and build up inventories... AND GUESS WHAT HAPPENS!!!
jeeze.
oh, i forgot. if we listen to USAIdiot then this is all Obama and the dems fault. CLUE IN!!! we need to stop thinking in terms of sides, kill all the ideologues, and start looking at the facts for what they are. unfortunately, this means turning off Fox News. i'm sorry.
Both parties share in the creation of the current economic $h*t stew along with banks that took OUR TAX DOLLARS and then decided to be pricks with it,shutting down lines of credit to small businesses,ensuring a far worse downturn for everyone except their own empty suits (bonus anyone??). I keep hoping for a package of tax breaks for small business and small business owners and especially for job creation,instead we get more stimula$$ spending that ends up doing nothing but putting us further in the hole!!
Once the experts decided the U.S., was to become a service economy, we started down the road to disaster; out-sourcing manufacture, and replace with a service sector, we divided this country into super wealthy and servants trying to get by; this started over 30 years ago, it is going to take 25 years to repair; THE PROBLEM IS ,WE HAVE NOT YEY STARTED TO REVERSE THE MISTAKE, instead we are bailing out the institutions which caused this collapse. wake up America.
Get The Point -
You show your bias when you say "shut off Fox news".
I would suggest you should turn ON Fox news, and continue to watch MSNBC, CNN, CNBC, whatever you watch, and procede to SYNTHESIZE the various viewpoints with some critical thinking of your own.
Fox is far from always correct, they are far from unbiased on the opinion shows - but they are no more biased than Maddow and Olbermann, just not liberal. Somehow you seem to think that a liberal bias is okay, but a conservative bias is not?
The reality is, all but Fox are pretty much humping Obama's leg. He can do no wrong. And Fox is overboard in many respects with the idea that Obama can do nothing right.
Somewhere in between the truth lies, and it may take some thinking on your part to determine what that is.
But ignore Fox, and you ignore virtually anything critical about this administration. Do you honestly think that's good, that Obama can do no wrong?
With all of the experts that we see on TV you would think that something somewhere must be wired up correctly.
Hey... sounds like us all of the vine too. Great discession around the coffee pot... but what else?
If you listen to one writer, all we got is a vote... and the rich control that by controlling us.
Well all I got is a vote, a voice. and the jawbone of a donkey. Maybe I can slay 3000.
PragmaticToAFault -
don't draw assumptions. i've been reading your posts and you present a great deal i agree with... unfortunately, this "bias" you are concerned with in as much a part of your content as anyone else's, isn't it.
obama can do more than just a few things wrong, he's a newbie! he wasn't my first choice! however, he is intelligent (more so than bush) and is more conservative than ANYONE seems to give me credit for!
you draw very specific points to your conclusions and you are a great believer in free market (sometimes correctly!). however, in terms of responsibility for our current crisis... you are cherry-picking. we all do it but to what extent and does it obstruct the greater truth?
i ask you this, for all of your "conservative" theories, where will these leave us in terms of the REAL problem.
i'm a capitalist but "something" by ANY name is needed to correct the problem and that is a declining middle-class. resources are finite and too few have too much. we will not fix our problem by simply multiply the same fraction... understand?
do you see what you are doing? you are denying the obvious - the past 8 years engineered to provide for ecnomic expansion via the WEALTHY - and blaming the greater unknown in the more distant past.we have seen stabilization in the past year! this is not to say debt isn't a very big problem...
you're smart but you're doing exactly as USARogue does... rationalizing YOUR clear bias!
look at the problem first (not your solution). contrary to most in this room i actually have a business degree, masters to be specific so please don't assume ignorance on my part.
save that for those who acquire their education via Fox News. Fox News truly does not qualify as a news source. they are tabloid and extend bias to the point of deception.
"Middle-income households made less in 2008, when adjusted for inflation, than they did in 1999 — and the number is sure to have declined further during a difficult 2009. The Aughts were the first decade of falling median incomes since figures were first compiled in the 1960s."
And the NAR trys to hype current home prices as being good because when adjusted for inflation the prices compare to prices 10 years ago.... nevermind that wages are less than 10 years ago, job security is less, taxes are rising, and economic outlook is now abysmal.
http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/real_estate/prices_dropped_over_decade/index.htm
3 reasons home prices are heading lower
http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/31/real_estate/home_price_drop/index.htm
"We've still only seen the tip of the foreclosure iceberg," she said.
he thinks prices -- already down 29% from the peak -- are only halfway to the bottom.
Actually, by virtually all of the economic measures, the economy for 9 of the last 10 years was pretty typical of previous decades.
It was fiscal year 2009 that was so poor that it wiped out all of the gains that we had in the previous 9 years.
If it weren't for the fact this has been going on for so long, I'd think it were some bizzare, surreal dream; one that I'd wake from and say, "This would really make a good movie.... so twisted and fubarred yet it made sense that it COULD happen".
We've lost all representation years ago. Doing away with single item legislation has allowed candidates to run on "this" while voting 2,000 of "that". All 535 are so wealthy and heavily invested in Fallstreet and corps. that big money, not just money, profits or capitalism, but Fallstreet BIG MONEY runs both parties. This can't be blamed on Blue or Red.
Glass-Steagall repealed. GLB enacted. NAFTA, CAFTA, CFTA, CRA, the WTO... all tools of big corps. to (gradually, at first) sell-out our economy to seize profits from third world wages. This concept of "global economy" is the perpetuance of this. Imports, exports, necessary, blah blah blah.
Yeah, that's understood. Trade is necessary and good. But it's been bastardized for so long, few understand that you CAN have trade but still stack the chips in YOUR favor. That's exactly what the 535 and money baggers are doing. WE THE PEOPLE need them stacked in favor of OUR AMERICAN ECONOMY. Pure and simple.
This isn't the "worlds" economy we're worried about, it's not our concern, it never has been and never should be.
America is built around the concept of American living standards, American wages, Americans working and manufacturing, American prices, billing, mortgage rates, living expenses..... and this "global thought crap" is now telling us that all of that is to remain the same, except for that small tidbit of AMERICAN WAGES AND AMERICANS WORKING AND MANUFACTURING.
Convolute it all you want, the "new age", "global economy", "free market"... and wallow in the waste.
Consumption without production=loser. Selling out production in the name of going "green" while OTHERS pollute worse in their production than we would be=loser. TBTF? No re-enacting of G-S=loser. No regulating what's been de-regulated and de-regulating the viral crap that's being regulated, socialism=loser.
Common sense and true representation, having citizen representation istead of big money campaigning career politicians will save us. Keepin the Red and Blue divide alive and well will continue more of the same,......
And, THEY'RE counting on that.
ROY WILSON-336103 -
is this a joke? WOW. does this include our deficit jumping from 4 to 12 trillion??? hypocrite much?
2009:
(this is just off the top of my head and not a copy and paste like so many seem to do here!!)
DEBT
we're in a bad place here but STILL have not touch the debt incurred by Bush and Reagan.
PragmaticFault -
now, i could list things that i have issue with in terms of the current administration but why bother when THIS hypocritical tripe, on the part of career posters (LOL), is what we are forced to read on this forum?
Get to the Point...
Following your conversation.....
Anyone who uses any of the major networks to become educated is barking up the wrong tree. FOX news bucks the trends of others and has become the biggest because of this. They can be just as frivolous in their reporting as any other... but at least they don't tow the majority media line.
Glad that you have a business degree... but so do many of those in this administration... and the last... but they still don't have a clue! Or do they? Maybe they have just used our fear and ignorance of government against us so that they can meet their ideological criteria. Us ants are just a means to an end.
We can talk all day about what needs to be done.. or undone... but until the right people are in position to do these things for the benefit of the country, and to protect all of our rights as citizens first, we'll just be meandering along the same divisive track.
I hope that we can get some politicians in place that will truly be transparent and have the good of the American public as there ultimate goal. I can't see that in the cluster we have now.
Gramps--you're right. These dreadful last 10 years were caused by allowing US companies to export all their manufacturing and service jobs to foreign countries. I have always been sceptical about all the "productivity" gains we were always hearing about. As it turns out, "productivity gains" really meant rising unemployment. I was baffled by the notion that America was supposed to keep on being the biggest consumer in the world while individual income grew stagnant and then began to fall because of all those lost jobs. Reagenomics started the decimation of the middle class. This shrinking middle class has been carrying the whole tax burden for the country while the richest one percent that now has 40% of the wealth in this country got a 30 year sweetheart tax cut deal from Reagan. Believe me, that filthy rich one percent has never, and will never, create one real job for anyone save scullery maids and gardeners. We could go a long way in replenishing the national treasure and reducing the national deficit by taxing the richest one percent at a 90% rate. I can just hear the right wing now---yowling it's lies about how the super-rich do too creat jobs and that they are not a bunch of callous greed-bags who care nothing about the welfare of the "little people"----they don't even know any of us "little people"!
Gus -
ask yourself AGAIN why Fox is so popular but think this time? could it be that it appeals to our more base nature and emotionality... kinda like reality TV? have you ever noticed how ATTRACTIVE those female hosts are? lol.
education and truth are never easy but Fox sure makes it seem so... i mean it's all so obvious and common sense, right?
polls and popularity do not equate to accurate! in fact, it's often quite the opposite. that's why we have representatives. if that was true then the less educated and less competent would be in charge. is that what you are suggesting? is this your solution?
obstructionism is not a solution and i can assure you that obama is not the DEVIL, although most here think he is. then again, most in here don't believe in evolution. maybe we should put that up for vote too? how about gravity?
i do remember a Fox News special - "did we land on the moon?" want the link?
Get The Point -
Yes, my bias is most defintely toward fiscal conservatism and I make no attempt to hide that. I definitely prefer a more free market than the one we are currently saddle with, wherein the government decides the winners and loosers.
My point was, and usually is, blaming Bush for that is ignoring everything that went before. By doing so, a person tends to leave out some very key element of what the problem actually is - big goverment, big spending. I'm not cherry picking, by blaming Bush - and Bush alone - THAT is cherry picking. He did much that was wrong, but again, many of the policies that caused these problems were in place before he was even sworn in.
I was no fan of Bush - ever. I voted for Gore, ffs. I'm NOT defending Bush.
I am trying, futiley probably but it's really cold out and I have nothing else pressing to do, to get people to realize -
Blaming this on Bush is just innaccurate.
The problem was, and remains, big government interference in the free market system.
Obama has continued Bush's policies.
How on earth can we expect any difference in the outcome?
The squeeze on the middle class has also been happening for decades, and started long before Bush took office.
The squeeze on the middle class is coming from the government, no one else. The government needs to get out of the way. That's my bias, again, I do not hide it.
And stop attacking Fox news. You look petty and intolerant. If I wanted to look petty and intolerant, I could rage on for a paragraph or three about Ed, Olbermann and Maddow. This being the USA, they're just as entitled to their opinion as anyone else. If you don't agree .... don't watch them, OR Fox.
Ok Prag,
You're arguing like a 4 year old now
To sum up your argument: Its not Bush's fault, but Obama is doing the same thing as Bush, so it is Obamas fault????
But then "fiscal conservatism" makes as much sense as your argument, none.
PragmaticToAFault -
well, at least you're making an effort at rational thought. that's better than most in here. i'm a big fan of free enterprise. but i'm a bigger fan feedback and control.
the past 8 years have had the most direct effect on our economy. period. everything else is more distraction than anything else.
i don't think any thinking person is saying it's ALL bush's fault. what many are saying is conservative theory (as it is applied!) has RESULTED in the rich getting richer and the middle class shrinking and it hasn't worked they way trickle-down theory suggests!
i'm all in favor of getting rich but not at the expense of our economy. no ideology should govern our thinking.
technology and many other factors have changed the economic landscape. while i appreciate your thoughtfulness i am concerned that your message is effectively unbalanced and extremism.
have you ever read "the huddled masses?" like it or not (and i don't) government has it's role.
i'm always considered myself a pragmatist.
i've also spent too much time on this forum of recent. done.
peace.
Get to the Point...
You have helped me realise once again why I do lean on watching FOX news over others. No it's not because of the pretty reporters (although I would rather the females act and look like females... and not like computers or clones of Olbemann).
It must be because I believe in "creationism". Or it must be that I do not believe in global warming "Gore" style. Or it must be that I don't like the hatred of the "confused gender" sect. Maybe it's because I believe that they espouse more along the lines of "Family Values" than some of the others. All curse words that are worth "mocking" to the liberal left!
I was just watching Glen Beck interviewing a gentleman who was talking about "honor and integrity"... but he must somehow be a hypocrite... he's on Beck and he's conservative.
Hey... you can assure me that Obama is not the Devil? I'm comforted by the assurance of a no name on a discussion vine in the middle of nowhere. Got It! You've convinced me. (By the way... I don't think he is the Devil. Maybe an unknowing tool of the Devil... I mean, who knows when they are being used?)
And what about the lost decade? It's just another one of those topics of discussion that's great for finger pointing. Will we have learned anything?
I'm more interested in the meal I'm about to have at Chili's with my lovely better half... one that we will give thanks to the Creator for.
Get The Point
ROY WILSON-336103 - "Actually, by virtually all of the economic measures, the economy for 9 of the last 10 years was pretty typical of previous decades. It was fiscal year 2009 that was so poor that it wiped out all of the gains that we had in the previous 9 years. - is this a joke? WOW. does this include our deficit jumping from 4 to 12 trillion??? hypocrite much?"
Just look at the numbers. The Gross Domestic Product grew by 58% from 1999 to 2008, an average of 6.44% per year. In the previous 10 years (1989-1999), the economy grew by 71%, an average of 7.1% per year. That's not that much of a difference.
As for the "deficit", since interest is paid on the National Debt, and not the "deficit", the really important issue is how much interest is paid on the National Debt, and the monthly interest payments under Bill Clinton averaged $18.9 Billion per month, but they only averaged $16.6 Billion per month under Bush II.
The "deficit" averaged $40 Billion per year under Clinton, and $135 Billion per year under Bush II. For Obama's first year in office, it was $1,420 Billion ($1.42 TRILLION).
These figures are from the government's own records, so what exactly was your point???????????
I knew in the early part of the Bush regime that we were #$%^&*! and the American dream had become a single wide and moped.
I knew when I was working my 25 year as an RN without health insurance that America was #$%^&*.
But, the richest 1 or 2% in the USA got hellacious tax cuts from the Greed Over People Party in majority.
Why....so that self serving, conscienceless corporate CEO's can pretend that they were the cause for their bottom line improvement and enrich themselves with lavish salaries and bonuses.
The sad truth is that these CEO's sold out the American worker and our country. I pray that they and the politicians that enabled them rot in hell.
ROY Gus-393033
good enough. magical thinking is your last recourse. do you believe in gravity? is our earth the center of our universe. science has been battling people like you for a long time... eventually the truth comes out.
WILSON-336103 -
my point is -
awesome. so what does this have to do with my main point - that wealth is too concentrated??? your numbers there are also largely built on debt.
so i guess in artificially keeping interest rates low hasn't hurt our economy... OK. tell that to the retired the GOP are so concerned about. also, what happens when rates rise again? (yes, most of us know the dif. between debt and deficit. thanks.)
i'll assume you're a dishonest man then? i say this because you're not stupid but you seem to forget WHY all this money has been spent (wisely or not!). perhaps we should have left it all to chance... our children's future's all to
well, i guess if we can drive interest rates down further by your logic obama is at no fault at all! oh, that's riht, bush already blew our wad!
5% unemployment, and GDP growth for every Qtr. but TWO in EIGHT years! I can understand why most sane folks felt the economy was fine.
Unfortunately, we had to follow the desire to increase home ownership mandated, and initiated by the folks in Washington from BOTH parties. Funny thing though..........the "it's Bush's fault" seems to have genetically implated in the "virully" infected Liberal brains, as that is their zombie response to rational debate! When FACTS are presented, they usually slink away! LOL!
I laugh when I hear the rich get richer comments! They DESERVE to get richer, as those folks typically are not looking for hand-outs. When you live WITHIN your means, it's amazing what you can do.
Hard work, ethics, foundation in faith, and family will take you a long way!
Witchrunner - I have to wonder what world you are living in, and whether the same rules of logic apply there.
At inauguration in 2001, George W. Bush's party held a majority in both houses, an advantage he maintained until his last 2 years in office. During much of that time, he had congress firmly in his control.
So... if he thought there was an issue with "easy credit", why was it he couldn't do anything about it?
a) He was totally incompetent.
b) He just didn't want to.
c) all of the above.
Please, pick an answer which fits, or give me some sort of rational explanation as to why the man in charge could not or would not do anything to address this issue.
I'll be waiting...
I'm always amazed by the mental inner workings of the average George W. Bush supporter. He had as much control of Washington as any President since Reagan, yet somehow nothing which happened during his administration was ever his fault. Someday, some mathematician at Cal Tech or M.I.T. will devise a formula to pinpoint the exact milliseconds for which Bush was actually responsible during his 8 years in office. We were all alive at the time, but I guess if you blinked, you might have missed it.
GaryL-749643 -
i know i'm laughing. lol. you just don't get it do you...
what i'm expressing is from a macroeconomic perspective! economics, not a personal opinion. personal opinion on the concept of "deserve" means nothing!
sadly, i can place your education just by this comment. no more than 2 years of college. i'm not being mean-spirited here. you just don't understand there is a bigger picture.
there are issues that extend beyond your and my opinion. that's when we look to math and science (as these are as close to objective as we're ever going to get). well, unless you're GUS. lol.
oh, bye-the-way Gus, we did land on the moon. lol.
1.36
Spell check, it's free
Republicans, there is no way to defend the articles facts, give up, the entire system is broken. Turn a new leaf and think like you might want to fix instead of obstruct. Defending and blaming proves you and everyone who thinks the same, having no desire to fix these problems with solutions and are part of the problem. I saw no solutions from you only blame trying to defend your party no matter how pathetic.
E.g. your first of all the diarrhea, CRA, the most important you didn’t mention, senators in the congress wrote deregulation for the mortgage industry, it doesn’t matter who write the garbage. Now here’s the catcher, Bush signed it into law. Probably another bill he didn’t have time to read like the bailout he signed, looking like a kid that can’t wait for his birthday present, unable to sign it fast enough. If that didn’t happen then we wouldn’t be in this mess, Bernanke saying Fannie and Freddy’s assets are solid back in July 08, one year later, time votes him “man of the year” as someone who made you a lot of money would do in celebration. We wouldn’t have had a real-estate bubble in any way. It was the only time in history where you got a loan if you could fog a mirror.
What's amazing is that's the same thing said to republicans, couldn't think of something new like usual? That's why regurgitation of the talk show hosts is so prevalent in society, kill grandma was a big one along with the other lies about health care.
I'm not a liberal and I'm not a conservative because they mean nothing anymore. E.g. a conservative, Bush, to increase government 3 fold? A liberal= wanting individual freedom last I understood. Gave more than enough reasons why republicans are bad for America. Besides labels got us nowhere…
Try listening to them all and forming a more rounded opinion. Fox is just a waste because most are lies, so why bother watching knowing they have lied? That’s a known fact and will never change. Use fox news for entertainment only republicans and free thinkers!
Here's a solution, start over with no party labels, this government we have can't start over. It has to be done with people who are really after the pursuit of happiness, which isn’t money. Corruption can not be tolerated, ever. Everything needs to be tested before implemented, want it to work good, test it, not just invent it in 1000 pg report.
Enough wasted time on stubbornness, actions are needed to fix, no real solutions or compromise from congress we're all screwed I say. The path taken was wrong, correct it now congress or get out of the way.
1.43
To me it seems that the "liberal" bias is always giving facts and having to disprove conservative lies, if that’s bias it’s a new definition, rep always make stuff up so I can’t believe a word that utters from your mouths anyway. I haven’t seen liberals saying any republican is a socialist or the other “isms” taking everything out of context making up lies.
I'm not a liberal but I probably sound like one explaining that liberals aren't making lies as brainwashed sheep following and regurgitating. How else would you all be on the same page other than repeating the same BS from these shows that have GOP think tank newsletters spreading the BS to each show? Liberals, on the other hand, do sound like wanting individual freedoms and searching for fixes of these problems we have right now because of a rep president. The insults and out of context clips becoming bias only come from republicans. There must be something still good in republicans.
Would love to hear an example of liberal bias, if you do, please make it relevant and fact, please not more lies it’s pathetic behavior like fox. One wouldn't be enough because I see liberals giving you hundreds and still isn't enough for you to see the light that a conservative mindset is bad for capitalism and a democracy. Capitalism, if left alone and used by good people, wouldn't need to be regulated. Not deregulated like a republican president signing sub-prime mortgages to law where one only has to fog a mirror to get a loan. Congress just interprets the constitution, not change it with corruption.
Since everyone seems to know what caused (Causation) the current problems how about fixing them or at least demanding the US President, US Congress, US State Governments, and US Local Governments to fix the problem. Sitting there pointing at each other does NOTHING:
Contact US President:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/
Contact Congress:
http://www.contactingthecongress.org/
RESULTS MATTER.
If you want to motive FOLLOW THE MONEY.
And I do not care what Party. The all have some blame (could not figure out how to depict Independent Party):
Republicans 8====> US Citizens <====8 Democrats
My take on this since writing my Research Papers in the 1990s that pointed out the indicators of a "Supernova Depression" and how to create an "Economic Buffer"; ignored by shortsighted US Government (credibility dismissed as "Wearing a Tin Foil Hat", "Conspiracy Theorist", etc.), so here we are. With these all be Cause + Effect (Symptoms) = Results (interrelated):
And before you start calling names how about doing the research and recommend the solution.
US Jobs/Manufacturing.
1994 NAFTA, CAFTA, SAFTA, Asian Free Trade Agreements and Amendments. As prior to this it was highly discouraged to "Outsource" in the form of high tarrifs. These were pushed for by the US Corporation Lobbyists to escape high US Labor Union Costs. The Follow the Money: Campaign Contributions, immense US Corporation profits, Foreign Countries receive US Technology including 24/7/365 Full Automated Computerized Self Calibrating Robotics (Factories/Plants).
Current (2009-2010) one factor is keeping US Jobs/Manufacturing in the US. The Wars (repeat of History, pre WWII, and WWII). In that due to "Outsourcing" the US Military cannot buy from US Corporations, this requires the US Military to have Nationwide Government Owned Government Operated (GOGO) and Government Owned Contractor Operated (GOCO) Factories and Plants to manufacturer US Military Equipment in order to obey US Code (Law): "US Military must buy only US Products, Goods, and Services." Follow the Money: Every US Citizen.
Like it or not (most do not like Wars, especially US Military (we die fixing Politicians failures)). Currently irregardless of Political Party all Politicians know the role in the US Economy (especially their own States) and use the US Military as a bargaining chip (threats with BRAC, Base Realignment and Closure). Just like the 14 Closed US Military Installation during the President Clinton demanded RIF (Reduction In Forces), resulting in Great Depression Era Civilian Economies around those 14 Closed US Military Installations (2009 Congressional BRAC Study, proposals after April 2009 Defense Budget Cuts). You can say all you want however Historically this is what brought the US out of the Great Depression by moving the US from Agriculture Economy to Industrialization (starting with 1939 Shipments of US Military Equipment to England, considered an Act of War). For those that say big bad US Defense Industrial Complex, lets close all US Military Installation within your State:
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/theorderlyroom/l/blstatefacts.htm
note those expensive hammers were for use on non sparking hammers for use on ammunition (explosives) and those toilet seats were for aircraft so that the @!$%#t would no come out after flushed when the plane flew upside down. Of course we could have just used the USSR equivalent and saved a bunch of money, and put expensive American US Labor Unions out of work. Follow the Money Every US Citizen.
Actual US Military based on previous ratios. 1 US Military Unemployed = 9 US Civilians. This does not include "US Civilian" indirect support (US School Teachers, Lawyers, Car Dealerships, Fast Food, Restaurants, Local Government, Retail, nor those Civilians working at GOGO or GOCO Factories/Plants). The current numbers are double digits when considering all US Civilians directly and indirectly employed due to the Wars (these civilians also fill previous US Military cheap "In House" positions deleted after the President Clinton Reduction In Forces of the US Military (without these US Civilians (US Contractors) the US Military would become "Non Mission Capable")(no niche no need for US Contractors). Follow the Money: Every US Citizen.
23 Million Illegal Aliens (counted during the 2006 Illegal (no permits) Nationwide Demonstrations of Illegal Aliens when US Congress 2006 was considering passing the harsh 2006 Illegal Aliens Act based on California Proposition 187). Not included in the 23 Million are those that stayed away from the Illegal Demonstrations as not to attract attention to themselves for deportation.
This is a multiple whammy. Economy, example: Bankrupt Illegal Alien Harbor State spends over 10 Billion USDs per year of 85 Billion USDs on Illegal Aliens and not on Legal California Residents (Education, Infrastructure, Law Enforcement, Medical Facilities, Firefighting, Irrigation, etc.). National Security (unclassified) known cooperation of 23 Million Illegal Aliens with Drug Lords and Gangs (especially MS13/14, Sureños and Norteños) or be anonymously turned in to ICE or INS. With the Drug Lords services (human trafficking, identity forgery, etc.) being purchased by Terrorists (not your concept, the ones that are rich and smart). Political, will be counted in US Census, change to Electoral College. Jobs only 1 works and 8 do not work (numbers from California Social Services (Public Assistance)); therefore are NOT Undocumented Workers (majority rules). And they do not contribute to Income (Revenue) as they do not pay Income Taxes (but use all Services) so that the IRS does not turn them into ICE or INS and are paid cash under the table.
US Economy.
1999 Gramm Leach Bliley Act and 2000 Modernization Act. These removed the Glass Steagall Acts safeties put into place to prevent another 1907 Depression and 1929-1939 Great Depression. These re allowed the causes of the 1907 Depression and 1929-1939 Great Depression to be legal. Specifically, those that belong to the International Swaps and Derivatives Association (ISDA). see isda.org "members" as to who they are that made 60-100 Trillion USDs causing the "Global Economic Crisis" and using "Credit Default Swaps" to start and make money off the "Mortgage Crisis","Credit Crisis", "Financial Crisis", "Banking Crisis", "Wall Street Crisis" and anything else dealing with "credit, credit defaults" or "finances". Follow the Money: ISDA makes 60-100 Trillion USDs profit from "Global Economic Crisis".
This is why any Billion USD Bailouts mean nothing. Attempting to pay 60-100 Trillion USDs with Billions USDs.
The motive of the Bailouts is payback for Campaign Contributions (to "Mr. Corporate America", you figure out who, hint Delaware) and Electoral College Votes:
(List from 2005) Delaware: Freddie Mac, Fanny Mae, Bank of America, Wilmington Trust, First USA / Bank One / JPMorgan Chase, AIG, Citigroup, Deutsche Bank, Barclays plc, GM, Chrysler, Wachovia, ExxonMobil, Chevron, ISDA, and those States with Corporations Incorporated at Delaware.
Over 50% of US publicly-traded corporations and 60% of the Fortune 500 companies are incorporated in Delaware;[1] the state's attractiveness as a corporate haven is largely due to its business-friendly corporation law. Franchise taxes on Delaware corporations supply about one-fifth of its state revenue.[2]
So fix the problem.
Repeal the 1994 NAFTA, CAFTA, SAFTA, Asian Free Trade, and Amendments. Like Freedom, Free Trade is not Free (someone has got to pay, in this case US Citizens). No more "Outsourcing" or face stiff tariffs like before.
Repeal the 1999 Gramm Leach Bliley Act and 2000 Modernization Act. Or reinstitute those protections of the Glass Steagall Acts. Makes the ISDA illegal, no more profits off of everyone else's misery.
Use US Military in accordance with the revised Insurrection Act to secure the US Borders assigned to US NORTHCOM. These would be the US Military that will be unemployed after Iraq. And US NORTHCOM creates Contingency Plan to sweep from Northeast to Southwest for Illegal Aliens and those US employers of Illegal Aliens. As a National Security Threat, known cooperation with Terrorists. US "Soft Targets" and retaliation against US Military Families.
Al Qaeda Bombers Learn from Drug Smugglers
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/09/28/eveningnews/main5347847.shtml?tag=pop
No more Illegal Aliens that are committing more Illegal Crimes to cover up their previous Illegal Activities. Also decrease the National Security Threat of (forced) cooperation of 23 Million Illegal Aliens in the US with known Terrorists. With the potential for the smuggling of a WMD or components to the US. Decrease or eliminate the Drug Lords support base and distribution channels within the US.
"Alternative Energy" (most of these were in my 1990s Research Papers as a means to create an "Economic Buffer" to the upcoming "Supernova Depression" occurring between 2006-2010).
Generation III Modular Nuclear Power Plants with Nuclear Material Recycling. 2009 Louisiana.
Fuel, and Electricity. Sugarcane to Ethanol Electric Power Plants. 2009 Louisiana. Brazil since 1959, Hawaii since 1911. Stop the insanity of Corn to Ethanol (Starvation of third world countries - UN World Food Bank, Trade Deficit - US Dept Commerce, Ineffective requires electricity from coal or oil - US Dept of Energy, etc.).
VAWT (Vertical Axis Wind Turbines) not HAWT (Horizontal Axis Wind Turbines). The basics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_turbine
With HAWThaving many faults (1970s - 1990s NASA Study North Shore, Oahu, Hawaii). Maintenance extensive, land space (food versus energy), down wind droughts (2009 Study), migratory bird kills, noise. With HAWT considered by Alternative Energy Businesses to remain in business with expensive continuous Maintenance Contracts (discovered by State of Hawaii after NASA Study, reason they were torn down). With VAWTs not having the same problems or minimizing the problems.
Electric powered Mass Transit to replace Public Mass Transit torn down by National City Lines (General Motors (Buses), Firestone Tire (Tires for GM Buses), Standard Oil of California (Fuel for GM Buses) and Phillips Petroleum (Lubricants for GM Buses)) that destroyed more than 100 electric streetcar systems in 45 cities and replaced them with GM Buses (including giving Politicians GM Dealerships (bribery)). The previous US electric power mass transit was based on the successful Deutsche Reichsbahn-Gesellschaft now known as the Deutsche Bundesbahn (currently Deutsche Bahn). These would be powered by the alternative energy produced by the above sources, not Oil or Coal Burning Electric Power Plants (extreme sources of carbon emissions and carbon heavy metal type of poisoning).
Maximum opposition to real Alternative Energy will come from Illinois Oil Refining, Corn to Ethanol Lobbyists, and Pennsylvania Coal.
Not considered here is Photovoltaic, due to output versus environmental impact and efficiency (%). And the shortage of silicone wafers (and my technology not considered as a solution).
Also a substitute for Oil based Plastics is not considered.
And electric cars are also not considered due to being second source polluters, using electricity from coal or oil burning electric power plants and manufacturing/disposal of lithium batteries. And ohmage (electrical resistance)(efficiency, with superconductors as a possible solution)
Comment do not cut the Defense Budget while we are at War (Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen), you do this after you withdraw us. And decreasing the Defense Budget results in long term US Civilian Unemployment and Great Depression Era Civilian Economies if BRAC (Base Realignment and Closure) and so do Reduction In Forces US Military. Yes, this will result in a temporary Budget Surplus (used for short sighted Political Purposes).
By the way those that will have a lot to lose Politically will label you as "Wearing a Tin Foil Hat", "Conspiracy Theorist", and the new one "Homegrown Domestic Terrorist" (especially if you state "a radical change to (US) Government" - H.R.1955 and S.1959 (people think this was defeated, Feb 2009 was used to force youtube to censor, and other internet sites "http 404""blocked in your region", "not available in your zone", etc. as legally monitored by (March 2009 Legalized):
http://www.cbsnews.com/1770-5_162-0.html?query=nsa&tag=srch&searchtype=cbsSearch
So those are the solutions that I can perceive.
Happy New Years.
note I have excluded the references (with each primary reference cross referenced).
Um MsnBc isn't there one more year in THIS decade? forgive me if I am wrong but doesn't it go from 2001-2010? so therefore..we have one more year to clean up this mess before the "decade" is done...
This has been going on forever. With the motives being Political or Money.
My first Historical Observation was during the 1970s. As reported by then Popular Mechanics, Popular Science and Newspapers. This was regarding Congressional Appropriations (spending "Uncle Sam's Money" (our taxpayer money)). And as Historically Documented National City Lines (corrupt Politicians, Federal, State, Local of all Political Parties) versus "the popular will of the US Citizens".
And this "Global Economic Crisis" started with legalizing those factors that caused the 1907 Depression (case filed by State of New York Attorney General) and the 1929-1939 Great Depression:
According to a summary by the Congressional Research Service of the Library of Congress (reason NOT to sign into Law) 1999 Gramm Leach Bliley Act and 2000 Modernization Act):
In the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, bankers and brokers were sometimes indistinguishable. Then, in the Great Depression after 1929, Congress examined the mixing of the “commercial” and “investment” banking industries that occurred in the 1920s. Hearings revealed conflicts of interest and fraud in some banking institutions’ securities activities. A formidable barrier to the mixing of these activities was then set up by the Glass Steagall Act.
See post above 1.66 legalization of activities of International Swaps and Derivatives Association and their profit of 60-100 Trillion USDs from the "Global Economic Crisis", "Mortgage Crisis", "Bank Crisis", "Wall Street Crisis", etc.. Note there is another one ("Crisis") coming up their profit 54.6 Trillion USDs.
Get to the Point...
Very funny... and predictable.
What I believe is something that the "great knowledge you think you" have just cannot grasp. I'm comfortable with that. (In fact, the One I believe says that you cannot grasp it unless you shed what you believe.)
And guess what? My vote counts just as much as yours. Jokes on you I guess.
(Did we land on the moon? When did that happen? Wasn't in the newspaper today?)
At Least Pick The Right Scapegoat…Hint – Its Not Obama…Just Jotting Down a Few Thoughts
Starting in with so called “Reagan Revolution”, the union busting and de-regulation of OHSA, oversight, consumer protection, anti-monopoly laws, anti-trust laws, the stupid tax cuts for the rich on the promise to the middle class and all Americans that a “trickle down” effect would bestow a future for an untold length of prosperity for the American people. The NAFTA and all the other inter-national trade treaties you are creating as scapegoats without doing the homework. There are simpletons running around today that proclaim ever lower corporate and individual taxes are a magical panacea that will cure every ill. A little detail please.
For Reagan & Bush I & II plus Clinton -- seen already for what history will confirm as corporate flunkies. Self-interested legislation (Carlyle Oil Group and oil friends, remember ENRON), dark, dirty, depreciating, long damaging and disgraceful dollar oil-driven cabals-proxies, toadyism of corporate and contiguous sponsors and controllers. A snap shot of what went wrong with America let’s look at this: Check the debacle of the deregulated communications industry and the financial ruin of the investors, like maybe your union, or state employees security fund, what, if any damage did your fund incur? Hopefully you where lucky and dodged a bullet. The “World Comm.’s” and all the other communications entities that collapsed with the tech bubble took many innocent investors down with them. I only can only choose for cable Time-Warner I have no other choice like I did back in the 1980’s – what happened? Ayan Rand defined the capitalist ideal to be a freedom to pursue one’s self-interest, completely unfettered by government regulation, little differentiated from Gordon Grekko’s ‘greed is good’ standard.
Unfortunately, the competitive drive coupled with innate human greed makes mere independence from government intervention insufficient. Marketplace competition, government regulators, and other potential success inhibitors are most efficiently overcome by lobbying government for grants, contracts, spending programs, and regulatory exemptions. Do you see a pattern emerging for the last thirty years? Some one can take the time to see where the numbers are for today’s millionaires compared to other times. I can produce numbers that show the average median income for American workers has fallen. “Real purchase Power” has fallen but what income group has risen in the last ten years? Should be researchable. This is what Bartlett and Steele reported way back in 1989 when their renowned book was first published “What Went Wrong With America”.
I have heard a good book for education purposes is The Pillaging of America,” published in 2009. The book was recommended to me from a reliable source. Check it out and the old social economic statistic’s from Bartlett and Steele’s book from 1989. I added my own verbiage to the passage that renders the paragraph not a direct quote. Research the lead up to the ‘Contract On America” the congress that Clinton had to cow tow too to get the heat off him and go with the powers that be. You do remember the Republican overwhelming “victory” in both houses of congress in 1994 & 1996, I don’t recall exactly the electoral years but the last term of Clintons he had to deal with Republican majorities. This I have handy 55 to 45 Republican Senate and 223 to 211 House Republican majorities and a weakened Clinton, actually wounded. A weak president had to deal with the devils and representatives of Wall Street, embedded in both political parties, among other special interests.
Wall Street need not invest in American ingenuity; they are no longer investment bankers but option, derivatives and experts in other arcane investment methodologies, only speculators. They acquire insurance and straddle so that if the index or sector goes down or up they win. I especially like the options racket.
They finally sank the Glass-Steagall Act via the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. Now the stage was set for the complete financial disaster of America. Then 9-11 and this opened the gates for the Industrial – Defense - Financial Complex” as we know it now. Erected the scaffolding for the profiteering of war. What is that old saying keep them scared and divided. This brainless pawn trying to blow up a plan, and that Ft. Hood murderer both could have been stopped before the incidents. The father went and told us his son was off his rocker and possibly planning a terrorist act. That is like the FBI reposts on Bush’s desk in late July or August of very suspicious characters form the middle east which only train to fly an airliner once in the air and not caring a wit for training in landing or take-off. This after the series of terrorist acts and declaration of war on the American people by that cave dweller, bin laden. The warning signs, in hindsight, are like the neon flashing lights one is blinded by while driving down the Las Vegas strip.
Bartlett and Steele outlined the decline of our country really picking up momentum in the Reagan era. The bulging ranks of the rich between 1980 and 189, the number of people reporting incomes of more than a half-million dollars rocked from 16,881 to 183,240 –an increase of 985%, in case you missed that I’ll repeat, 985 % increase. That represented the largest percentage of increase in the century. I wonder what the comparison would look like today form 1990, maybe 3,500% or more increase? I suppose the picture would be of the have and have-nots, the have-nots have just enough to get by and maybe even have a ‘wide screen TV. Wahoo Whoa. I’m enjoying the holidays doing almost zero substantial research, I’m working from notes, rebut if you would like too. Maybe someone has done the work for you. I think the interest on the national debt is something like about 380 Billion per year. The national debt about 11.8 Trillion, as I recall. Bush gets credit for the Bailout’s, TARP and Stimulus money that was already planned before he left office and it was left for Obama to configure. I’m saying they were already on the drawing board, paid out, planned or obligated, before Obama took the oath. All added Bush gets credited for 10.7 from about 4.7 when he took office. Talk about poor Sara Plain spending only $140,00 Republican money for clothes. Has Obama spent to avert the greatest depression of all? Yes. Who knows maybe we do need a big giant depression?
Then today I listened to a very respected Mises Institute member lecture at length on why the Federal Reserve should be abolished and free market economic systems are allowed to flourish. I wonder what bubble he has been living in? Tighten credit, let joblessness reach as high as it will and shrink the government. Stop the manipulation of the money supply and allow the mother of all shakeouts just happen. My knowledge of the Great Depression impressed on my thought that is what Hoover attempted and the economy went over the cliff. Go figure that out if you dare.
Our country has never been able to sustain an economy, which allows the luxury of both guns and butter without dire economic consequences. No country has been able to do so and the attempt has been known historically to have largely determined the collapse of the great nations in the world’s history. Where is the sacrifice asked of the American people, especially the “rich”? Two wars and Bush lowered taxes and thus went against every historical precedent that such an act would determine economic ruin. He, Bush, listened to the ole wise one, the Federal Reserve Chairman –Greenspan and attendant lackeys. History be damned we would be, to my knowledge, the first country in the worlds history too wage not one but two protracted wars, lower taxes and expect the economy to prosper. This article proves history right and the economic Neo-Cons and the Hayek, Aynn Rand, Friedman school of economic thought intellectually bankrupt. Soon the country may just be that – bankrupt.
My thought is that we need to enforce the regulation of Wall Street, rewrite the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, let the housing market find equilibrium (stop government intervention), clear the banks balance sheets of these toxic assets (residential and commercial), stop Wall Street from using our bailout money to gamble with and re-invest in America. I have some more ideas but I see my time is up. I have a feeling all may be lost we can only try and muddle our way through. Americans may have to settle for a lower standard of living for generations to come.
Post Script: I could be off a few hundred billion but I know I am very close to the “real numbers” in reference to the current deficit.
Note: - THINK TRICKLE UP….GUNS OR BUTTER…NOT BOTH
Anomalee - Yes, in your apparently ceaseless quest for variety, you have struck upon a valid point; this decade is not officially over until midnight of 12/31/2010. That said, 12 more months is not going to turn the decade into one of economic success and advancement. Most economists predict continued high unemployment for all of 2010.
Gus-393033 -
no, unfortunately, the joke is on you. the sun coming up is predictagle too and this is more likety due to it being a fact than anything else. lol.
i'm the son of a preacher so been there and done that. i also consider myself a christian in that i am a follower of christ and BELIEVE in his resorection.
exactly how close do you think your modern day GOP emulate chirst of recent, exactly? ours (mine) is not a religion but a faith. lol.
it's very easy to excuse off irrefutable ideas with "magical thinking" like you just did... unfortunately, you will never see truth with such a closed and frightened mind.
evolution and creationism are not necessarily mutually exclusive. evolution is a fact. man decedent from monkey is a theory. you need to understand the difference.
i've seen both sides of this equation... have you?
Most every reputable economists, business schools and economic prognosticators have told us the this will be a long, very long recovery and it may change the so-called economic landscape of America as the country lurches forward in the world economic affairs. this is already the longest recession on record, so I hear, and we may have a double dip (go further into recession). The pieces are in place for another mega collapse on Wall Street of the too big to fail entities so what happens if China stops buying our debt?
The United Kingdom recently raised the income tax, individual and especially corporate and I have not heard of one citizen or corporation turning in their passport. I Wonder why?
dman..what pray tell are you talking about? "ceaseless quest for variety?" I merely made a point that the decade is not over yet and a LOT can happen in one year...ie: nixon..Impeachment..etc etc etc..why do you feel the need to cut me down? It doesn't bother me but I am just curious where you came up with that statement of ceaseless quest for variety? btw..variety is the spice of life..and I like variety..so you actually complimented me. thanks :) Hap....py New Year!
Get The To The Point...
We don't inherit our beliefs from our parents. Your assertion of being christian (Christian) and also having your foot in both worlds is nothing new and unimpressive. In fact, any follower of Christ would be worming around with their face down about that... not flaunting it about.
I too have tasted of both worlds, and not very proud of it. But I've learned one thing, and that is to encourage those who are in faith... not be their enemy.
So... to that... I'll leave you to work out your salvation "according to the scriptures" as Jesus admonished us.
I also hope that the next decade will see a revival of true eternal values being put into our country... something that we seem to have forgotten.
Gus,
Your points are probably falling on deaf ears with "to the point".
He thinks he knows it all... says he is highly educated, without an ounce of people wisdom. He says he's a believer, but scorns anything that has to do with sound judgement or Christianity. It's his loss...
Says his pop is a pastor and that he has been there and done that. But Christianity is really all about "being there and doing that". Even the Demons believe... yet they tremble. His reverence of God is not even a ripple on his pant leg. Thinks just because he skydives that he is somehow a bird.
What is the subject that was being discussed here? Yes, the decade. It's lost. Forget about it.
i think the difference here is a matter of honesty and integrity. one of being a man and not a child (not be be confused with a child of god).
i've lived my entire life watching and listening to hypocrites. i know the kind of life i've lived while i watch others profess faith doing things to others that i could never imagine for my beliefs!
bigots and hypocrites filled with hate showing up on sunday morning to profess their faith and condemn others...
i've debated your ideas and challenged you as a person... nothing more. i would never go so far as to judge your relationship with God (you are not fooling anyone).
education and understanding outside the scope of ones personal beliefs is not the enemy or to be feared! it is the essential nature of empathy. to suggest it something to hold ones head down for! your effective choice is ignorance over understanding! very frightening.
i will pray for you that fear and ignorance will no longer control your life. i mean this sincerely. good evening.
Where is America?-1111673 -
thank you for your personal judgmentof me. please, tell me more? take more things out of context for your satisfaction and make more assesments based on your limited understanding. perhaps you need to read the bible and what it has to say on this.
i'm sorry you can't handlethe idea that i am both highly educated (not claim to be) and also a christian. i realize it must be a great threat to you. i'm sorry for this.
I just was reading that in England, Spain, Ireland, Ukraine, (Iceland is practically insolvent), these countries deficiet percentage increase from where the national debt was in 2006 and 2007 is even greater than ours. We went from 4.7 at the starting of Bush and ended up at 11 plus trillion when Bush left. I wonder what the financial strength is of the other large emerging economies of the world?
China in terms of domestic debt has accumulated a massive amount of domestic debt in trying to stimulate and develop the country The numbers I am trying to find, but the country is not as open as western countries but the consensus from what I have read this is potentially a very big bump on the road for the worlds economy. The yields in the emerging markets is luring the investment of the Wall Street speculators due to the rigerous rating the risk entities have given these markets so why invest in California (BBB) as an example. The risk rating agencies of the world say AAA so the money flows out of our country into said markets. I am using BBB for California only for illustration purposes, to my knowledge my state has stopped issuing "IOU" certificates instead of state checks to state employees and third parties.
How does the country come out of this? I note only say that a few issues that seem the most creditable to me. Get the government out of the real estate market and let prices find equilibrium, clear the bank balance sheets of inflated assets so investors and third parties know what these entities real financial strength is, enforce the current banking regulations (stress tests) and modify the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. This is only for starters
We have been two years plus into this recession and the accumulation of government debt to sustain us cannot go on forever. Tightening credit may push into a repeat of the so-called lost decade of Japan. The second largest economy in the world behind our own country. Think of it! The lost decade of the Japanese. It could never happen here, could it?
Good Night................
Where were the regulators (SEC, Treasury Depart, Fed Reserve Bd, etc.) when the commercial banks were filling their coffers with toxic assets?
To The Point,
I have not judged you. Your own words are what judge you.
You are contrary to your own beliefs. You disdain Christianity by your putting down of those that claim to embrace it. You are the hypocrite that attends the churches as you so aptly mentioned. You judge your brother and sisters, and from what I have seen and read in your postings, boast of your knowledge of people and the world, as though you are the ultimate expert.
Your faith and your knowledge are just wind if you judge others according to the writings that I have seen on this newsvine blog.
It's not a matter of political discussion... but those you seem to embrace are the same ones who make light of Christianity and of Christ.
No one is perfect... and it is with that understanding that we should approach those who claim and freely confess that "Jesus Christ is Lord". As for any assertion of being past that growth of a child, I see that your writings do not bring you past the milk of the word, as you claim.
Christians should be here to help people up and to be an encouragement. We're not here to play one upmanship games... something that seems to have gone on in the above conversations.
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt" is how Paul put it. Soloman said "As iron sharpens iron, so brother sharpens brother."
Only God really knows what you have gone through in your life. He is the ultimate judge between us all. I would hope that your approach to Christians might be modified and rethought. Maybe you need to check your scriptures and to consider things a little bit more if you claim to be a follower of Christ. As I recollect the Lords teachings, he referred to attitudes that we should have in the Sermon on the mount.
"Wise men still seek Him"
Where is America?-1111673
glad i checked this before i went to bed.
what was that you were saying about works? "bigots and hypocrites filled with hate showing up on sunday morning to profess their faith and condemn others... " seems god spoke to you through my post before you ever wrote yours! praise jesus. not a problem, i choose to forgive.
i see you choose to contiue on your judgmental rampage. hopefully you will see your spirit for what it is at some point, god willing...
both of you, thank you for your posts. the tone and "spirit" of your posts have been very illuminating. i will rest well tonight finding no personal judgment of others in my words.
love, kindness and forgive and not self-righteous characterize the faithful.
i wish you well.
perhaps you need to attend to your own hypocrisy and not judge me for words taken out of context and stated in heated discussion... and christ embraced the sinner.
lol. attend to your own wisdom, sir. unfortunately, you show you lack of both wisdom and education.
good evening.
To The Point...
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Argumentation is one thing... high-mindedness is another.
what a dishonest man you appear to be.
shall i extract your words from above (our exchange) and then compare them to mine for spirit or intent?
your hypocrisy is showing and still you continue your evil spirited attack. you need to find shame.
frankly, what i say to OTHERS is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS! self-righteousness is not christ like.
so, you convict me (lol) for high-mindedness. as if strong opinions in this forum are somethign new. lol. perhaps i do come on too strong but this is almost certianly due to the nature of YOUR peers!
i see you don't convict them?
i need to chasten my tone despite what i encounter from your peers here... what have you learned from your own words and what have you learned from your peers other than you are right and i am wrong?
AGAIN - please attend to your own hypocrisy. frankly, i don't recall asking your opinion.
you know what ti love about these boards? did you choose to collapse any of my posts? i didn't yours. god knows you heart!
good evening and i hope you are well.
To the Point...
Spirit and Intent seems to be lacking greatly on the vine.
Spirit is usually bashed by many on this "open forum". I have no problems with that myself until Christianity becomes a point of issue as though Christians are somehow lower class citizens and treated that way.
Debate is one thing, and it is no problem for me to debate anyone. I do not claim to have a vast knowledge of everything, and my educational merits may not equal many of those who post on the newsvine or many other forums. That does not in any way disqualify me from participation.
When you or I post something on this forum it is open to discussion, something that I have engaged in with you.
My intent was to bring attention to things as they were transpiring in the different conversations and I happened upon the discussions from the top of the first commenter, and then followed the flow down.
The only way that I would make a complaint about what someone was saying is when they personally attack another with inflammatory words such as "idiot or moron or bafoon" etc.
You didn't allude to such words, as I recollect, yet by your approach you spoke in a condescending manner. That left things open for further to debate in my mind and my intent was to bring it around to the approach...something that maybe you do not see in the same light.
I don't believe that there is much room for Christians to be fighting Christians or to be attacking Christianity. As believers there needs to be room left for what the scriptures have to say about our day and age... a time when things are becoming quite interesting in light of prophecy. If you believe in prophecy... you know that things are coming together. Maybe not coming together in the way that we have been taught traditionally, but none the less, coming together as it has been foretold.
That is why Christians must come together rather than wrangle with one another.
That I have been hard in my statements was not to put you down... but maybe to bring some levity to your approach... especially towards Christianity. I hope to have stirred you up... though maybe it was not the type of stirring that you would like. If I am wrong accept my apologies for where I have misjudged you. They were certainly not arrows to kill.
Yes.. God knows my heart.
david - Knowing the cause of a problem is not the same as knowing how to fix it. Beyond that, you do make some valid points, but the text of your post is so meandering that one must sift through it to find them.
Get The Point -
If you think Bush did ANYTHING fiscally conservative, please point it out to me.
Tax cuts? No, a fiscal conservative would not have done that without corresponding spending cuts. Bush did the opposite, cut taxes AND increased spending. In other words, one individual act of apparent "conservatism" does not make his administration a conservative administration. At least two massive, unfunded mandates is NOT fiscally conservative. It must be looked at in aggregate, and in aggregate, his presidency was NOT fiscally conservative - at all.
Bush was only conservative when it came to social issues, and IMO the worst possible kind of conservative - one who claims to want small government UNTIL they can use government as a tool to force their social agenda.
Bush and politicians like him have given conservatism a very bad reputation - because they claimed to be conservative, but did not follow actual conservative policies. The might have cherry picked one or two things, but obviously that doesn't work, any more than the current administration can continue to spend and spend and spend, and NOT raise taxes. It's impossible.
How do we solve this? One solid, first step would be to reinstate Glass-Steagall. The next would be to end all the nanny-state interfering this administration is doing trying to protect business from bad decisions. Then they should move on to some serious renegotiation of NAFTA, and the implementation of punative taxation and fines on companies that offshore our jobs, RETROACTIVELY, and those that employee undocumented workers. That should keep Obama busy for three years, we'll see what happens after that.
PragmaticToAFault -
pragmatically - bush is most certainly a conservative as we are pressed to find significant real world "examples" alternative to this. generally, i think what you express is a sound starting point for ecnomcic policy, however, i also think that it is more theory than reality - at this point in time - and rigidty in this area can turn one into an ideologue.
in the end, i also am a pragmatist in that i do not allow belief systems to stand in the way of observable truth. i strongly believe that balance (check and balance) is often the solution. where we may seek the ideal, sometimes less desirable courses of action are required for their real world outcomes.
"sometimes you have to break a few eggs..."
i have no idea what is going to happen with this this health bill and i don't think anyone else does either. it concerns me if only for the fact that it was such a partisan effort - and this is primarily the fault of the GOP! in theory, if we could minimzie health cost related personal bankruptcy (the #1 reason for personal bankruptcy!!), the impact on our economy would be profoundly positive. we would get that much closer to fixing the real problem at the core of almost everything and that is a declining middle-class.
everything is eventually a matter of compromise. there are no absolutes. politics are ugly. i do not belive obama is a socialist anymore than i believe you are a bigot however his policies are dangerous just as bush's were and need to be challenged and moderated (not obstructed!).
while far from perfect i do think they offer balance to what we experienced the past 8 years having similar effect as the GOP (conservative) administration before that.
i realize all of this is highly genralizeded but specifics are beyond the scope of what i can offer today. it's sunday.
Yes, you have to break a few eggs.
The debate becomes, which eggs do you break?
You're buying into that "personal bankruptcy" thing, when the reality is the people that end up declaring bankruptcy that have even ONE medical bill in the pile of unpaid bills end up being categorized as "medical-related bankruptcy". I don't dispute that there ARE people who as a direct result of medical issues, end up bankrupt. There are also people who end up bankrupt because of car accidents, lost jobs, divorce, too many kids, AND lets not forget fiscal irresponsibility. I don't think breaking the entire health care system for the 260 million people it serves fairly well is justified to "help" a handful who in many if not most cases, caused their own problems by making bad choices. This desire to remove all consequence from bad choices is a fundamental problem we have in this country now.
I have to laugh at blaming the GOP, really. I'm not a Republican, I'm not defending them because the tactics they used were nonsensical in many respects - latching onto that fool Palin's "death panel" hysteria, for instance.
But the Democrats made it very clear, early on in the health scare deform process, that the Republicans were NOT welcome to the table UNLESS they went along with what the Democrats wanted. To say they offered nothing is a bold faced lie.
http://www.gop.gov/solutions/healthcare
There is an complete bill, that never saw the light of day, was never discussed on the floor of Congress and was never covered by the Obama-mania-media.
I'm not saying it was a good bill, but it's relative merit does not negate its existence. Clinging to the media and Democrat's cries of the Republican's being the "party of NO" is simply patently false.
Aside from the fact, since they are the OPPOSING party, I'm not sure what else people would expect them to do besides oppose things with which they disagree.
You seem to tend to want to agree with the Democrats, and obviously that's your prerogative. I'm trying not to agree with ANY of them until they convince me that I should, and the Democrats haven't. Neither have the Republicans convinced me, quite frankly, that their objections are valid. But there ARE dozens of valid objections, and so for the sheer effort of opposing this health scare deform bill, it ends up looking like I side with the Republicans. So be it.
We can also agree that the past 8 years were not good for this country, but honestly I think you're desire to hate the Republicans is clouding your ability to realize - true fiscal conservatives hated the past 8 years as much as liberal democrats. In a world view, Bush was certainly more conservative than say, Brown in England. In a US view, he is not and was not conservative in much of anything besides social policy. You simply do NOT run up that kind of debt, spend like he spent, and play fast and loose with the budgets of wars as a conservative. It flies in the face of the fundamental principles of conservatism.
When the GOP (Greed Over Patriotism) had the Presidency, Senate, House and Supreme Court and decided to cut taxes for the wealthy while running Trillion dollar deficits, and then decided to give Halliburton hundreds of Billions in no bid contracts to outsource our war fighting ability, and then refused to regulate the thieves on Wall St. or the banks, and then instituted a 50 Billion dollar Medicare drug benefit with no way to pay for it, and then gave Big Oil hundreds of Billions in tax breaks while they were earning record profits, and then.....well, you all know how this story ends, it's Obama's fault!!
Yea, but it was a glorious time for all those greedy Republicans, which now whine like little girls about why Obama could not fix something that took 8 years to create in his first year.
Marine, you must have shot expert on the range, that post is on target!
No, Marine was clearly shot in his own head! (if he even is a Marine, which i highly doubt),
Mr Marine-boy uses all the Liberal talking points, especially those "tax breaks for the rich", when he cant even name any specific ones. Then of course, that "evil" Halilburton. which has replaced "racism" as the cry of the Left, especially when they cant think of anything responsible to say.
Marine-boy is an idiot.
Here is a good explanation of the tax cuts:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/features/jan-june03/taxcut_5-01.html
It looks so quaint, in hindsight. Of course--Bob will ridicule my source (common tactic: ask for a source, and when the opponent gives you one, delegitimatize the source) But will Bob give me a source to back his argument? Of course not.
Well, Rigger-boy, youre wrong again. I assume you are speaking of the change in taxing dividends, which Liberal nimrods love to point out is a "tax cut for the rich".
That change benefts EVERYONE that invests...not just the wealthy. Of course, the so-called "wealthy" benefit more, because of the dollars involved. But its all relative...
Why do Liberals hate those who have done well in life, and invested wisely?
The remainder of the tax cuts definitely benefit everyone.
I guess now youre gonna tell me that the rich "dont pay their fair share".
LMAO
Try again, sonny....
Where are your specific points, bob. All you offer are insults.
I lived through the past decade, as did you I believe. Much of what Marine-Vet alludes to rings true.
Any smart person could tell that this survey is biased. The last decade is the best in American history. People were making more money until Obama took office and the unemployment double. People were making so much money that was why they can afford bigger homes and nicer cars. People bought more expensive homes in the last decade then any other decades in history. If Chris Dodd and Barney Frank did not get too greedy and corrupted Fannie Mae and Feddie Mac, people would still be in their homes.
Is that a fact? The reality of it is people borrowed equity on an inflated housing market. The money was Monopoly money not earned.
Mini,
You are so hysterically wrong that I thought I was reading some sarcasm. Bush's decade was one of the worst in recent history. Below is a link to a study comparing leading economic indicators of Bush v. Clinton,
http://www.ppionline.org/documents/Performance_Index.pdf
Quick Summary:
Clinton: more jobs, more national debt reduction, more wages, more GDP, more health insured, more home ownership, etc... Less poverty and less productivity.
Bush: more unemployed, more poverty, more national debt, more trade deficit, more productivity, etc.... Less wages, less jobs, less median income, less GDP, less homeownership, etc..
Ooops, guess Americans were more productive under Bush, my bad you were right, THAT was the best decade ever.
The decade of greed and trickle-down was like a fluffy soufflet of dreams and deception - all pumped up on hot air, only to collapse into a miserable pan-cake from the soup-kitchen once the cold air of reality hit it!
I believe that each American Citizen and every legal worker should share an equal burden. Unfortunately we frequently hear how the "Rich" ( hard to define ) pay 95% of the taxes......
I really don't care what percentage of taxes collected that they pay. I would suggest that we need to have equal burden. If I make 30 thou, 60 thou or 100 million the end percentage should be the same.
I do not believe that the "Rich" pay an equal burden of taxes on income as do the middle class who do not enjoy caps, loop holes, off shore, deferred income, stock options, 401k ....... on and on.
Then some say the poor do not pay taxes, tell that to the guy in line for gas, groceries, and other essentials. A person’s value cannot be determined by how much money their mommy left them. Nor is a person “Rich” who simply has an over inflated ego from his bank balance and no heart.
ShowMe,
You're obviously trolling there for a response.
The rich pay 95% of taxes because the rich have 95% of the money and use 95% of the things taxes pay for, think Walmart and welfare.
The commons (things taxes pay for, schools, roads, police, etc..) are used unequally MORE by rich and by business, that is why they pay an unequal amount of taxes compared to someone who makes $30,000 who just uses the roads for going to work.
Disappointed in Missouri-
Don't let common sense and truth stand in the way of your argument. Your fact-less and racist rant aside, why is it that the inane assertions and whining about taxes paid always seem to come from those living in "welfare" states. Your rugged individualism is a hoax. In fact with few exceptions, almost every red state benefits from redistribution of wealth. The red states, including MO (receives more than $1.35 in federal spending for every $1.00 in taxes paid) receive more in federal funds than federal taxes paid, courtesy of the blue "donor" states. Instead of whining you should send a great big thank you to NJ, NY and CA-the largest donor states. Or you could start carrying your own weight.
Lincoln is quoted as saying, "You can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time."
Perhaps he should have added a clause which said, "you can fool minilaunger, anytime, anywhere with any old line you can think of."
These economic troubles certainly did not begin with Obama taking the oath of office in January of last year. Most economists say the recession began between 12 and 18 months earlier. The triggering point, when everybody noticed, was the near global meltdown of the financial industry, which occurred in the summer of 2008.
They say that figures lie and that liars figure, but I guess stupid people just say anything at all.
BTW: Here are the U.S. statistics for monthly unemployment in 2008 (January to December: 4.9 4.8 5.1 5.0 5.5 5.6 5.8 6.2 6.2 6.6 6.8 7.2
I'm guessing you can see the trend.
Thanks for the unemployment numbers, and since its the textbook example of a lagging indicator, it falls in line with the story and many comments, Bush's decade was a lost decade for jobs and growth, he even left long term problems for the next decade.
$2.1 trillion in tax cuts: Bush, Congress make a huge gamble.(Editorials)(Bush, Congress make a huge gamble)(Editorial) The Register-Guard (Eugene, OR) | May 24, 2003 Byline: The Register-Guard
Congress approved a $330 billion tax cut Friday, and hours later the Senate voted to raise the nation's debt limit by nearly $1 trillion. Seldom has there been a more vivid demonstration of credit-card government. Congress, following President Bush's lead, has committed the nation to an economic policy that entails huge risks.
The $330 billion price tag on the tax-cut legislation is deceptive. To keep the number as low as possible, House and Senate negotiators agreed to make many of the tax reductions temporary - including a break ...
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-102611049.html
Who saw those cuts except when he spread the wealth with his stimulus checks?
No, the trouble did NOT start in 2008.
The trouble started in 1977 (CRA), 1994 (NAFTA), and 1999 (Gramm-Leech-Bliley) - just to name three.
2008 was the culmination of all of those heavy-handed government-based social engineering policies and bad regulation that attempted to control all the wrong things and ignored REAL issues that government is supposed to deal with.
That meltdown had been literally decades in the making. Franks and Dodd said everything was fine, though, didn't they. PS, Fannie and Freddie now have a blank check from the American taxpayer. And that's Bush's fault? Much is Bush's fault, but you people need to look farther than Bush and realize - much of what is wrong NOW is liberal policy piling up over decades.
You also need to realize that the closest thing to a true conservative to hold the office of president in recent memory is Clinton. Ironic, isn't it?
And no one in their right mind would expect any administration to correct decades worth of problems in 11 months.
What people could reasonably expect is that an administration would STOP doing the SAME EXACT THINGS - bigger and bigger government, bigger and bigger debt, bigger and bigger spending, more social engineering that creates more government and more spending.
Those are the EXACT things that created this problem.
They are the EXACT things that the Obama administration continues to do.
The next lost decade is on him, because he is setting us up for more of the same buy doing more of the same.
If you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got.
They outsourced army jobs like setting up their own camps in Iraq to private companies (halliburton and asssociates). That work was so poor that many some of our servicemen were electrocuted taking showers! Dick Cheney is pure evil.
Why is Obama still using Halliburton?
Repeat after me Prag,
C-O-N-T-R-A-C-T-S
And no bid contracts at that, we used to have the services do these things, now we have entrenched welfare corporations doing those things without bids, this is what Reaganomics was always about, the privatization of our government. And when it worked after 30 years, then it failed, sort of ironic.
Repeat after me, nozzle:
G - M, C - H - R - Y - S - L - E - R
Since when does this administration care about contracts, when they can score political points by ignoring them?
And I thought Bush/Cheney were to blame for Halliburton? Or was it Clinton, who stripped down the size of the military to the point we didn't have enough service members to serve many of these functions? Now it's Reagan's fault?
Botton line: Obama wankered incessantly, just like some of you are, about Haliburton, KBR and Blackwater (Xe). And they're still being used, and some of you still blame Bush? It is to laugh.
minilaunger-1530576
Why do you keep bringing up a survey?
briefly, from the article:
"Middle-income households made less in 2008, when adjusted for inflation, than they did in 1999 — and the number is sure to have declined further during a difficult 2009."
"The housing bubble both caused, and was enabled by, a boom in indebtedness. Total household debt rose 117 percent from 1999 to its peak in early 2008,"
Wages less than 10 years ago, but debt has more than doubled...good if you owned a home 10 yrs ago and then sold it during the bubble...aweful for anyone pursuing the "American Dream" in the past decade. Yet we have a government that is still reeming the populace to prop up the housing market solely to keep its property tax revenue inflated...the result being higher taxes and higher costs of living for everyone.
You're right Prag,
Bush should not have bailed out GM and let them fail, putting millions of people out of work, I meam thats capitalism right?
And for such a conservative you sure like your government spending $600 billion a YEAR on military, hypocrite much, can't spare 1/10th of that for healthcare.
As far as our military being slimmed by Clinton, remember shock and awe? Those were Clinton's weapons, seemed tough enough without Haliburton to me.
Rather than put the blame on congress, I'm going to say the people of the United States should take the brunt of the blame for taking on so much debt.
If everyone would have lived in within their means (I know, it's a weird concept), our economy would certainly be in a different state.
The government did not ignore the contracts of GM & Chrysler, they and the debt and equity holders of these companies, went through elaborate legal maneuvering to break these contracts. Included in these maneuvers were the declared bankruptcies of both firms and their rebirth as "new" corporations".
So, presumably, if the United States wants to declare itself bankrupt and defunct, then reconstitute itself under a new name, such as the "Federated States of America", the government could invalidate its contracts with Halliburton.
Absent such an unlikely ploy, the government contracts with Halliburton must stand.
Nate....the public has been conditioned. Those in government have lead them to believe that we will give you this and we will give you that. The public knows that the government will help them if only they will vote for more and more government. Government is the rich uncle, there to give you present after present with no requirements. The government has encouraged debt. The government encourages spending. The government tells the public we will give you more and more and we will make someone else pay for it. We will penalize those who have become successful and those that work constantly and we will give you that money....We have a program for you. We will give your family food, clothing, a big screen TV, a house and money. We will take that money from those that work..and save. If you will just vote for more and more socialism, everything will work for you. We will even bribe congressmen to give you free medical care if we have to.
PragmaticToAFault - #2.18. Second vote. Like I said in posts #1.66 and #1.68 they would rather point fingers at each other.
Explained in other Newsvine Posts, this is due to the President Clinton Reduction In Forces cutting the US Military to the bone. This resulted in the loss of cheaper "in house" capabilities of Logistics, Supply, Transportation, Water Purification, Food Service, VIP Protection, Intelligence, etc. with the US Contractors filling this newly created niche when the US Military was ordered to War, H.R.4655, 1998, Declaration of Current War at Iraq, Short Title: Regime Change. Funny enough it was mostly those US Military that got RIFed that started these businesses "US Contractors", and were the only ones with the experience, capabilities to full fill the contract requirements (resulting in no bid contracts). My unfortunate experience with them ("US Contractors") was when some of them did not want to "deploy" to a combat zone to provide Patriot Missile Maintenance (as all "in house" Patriot Missile System Maintenance Technicians were deleted (RIF), with the result of poorly maintained Patriot Missile Systems (Phased Array Radars) resulting in non intercepts of Scud Missiles, US Military deaths at Warehouse) and instead wanted to tie this up in Contract Negotiations (more money) or Court (So you can imagine how I feel about US Contractors, no oath of loyalty). Everything done to or by the US Military has a consequence. RESULTS ONLY.
The reality of US Military "Procurement" (including Contract Awards) has nothing to do with what is best (for US Military) nor "cost effect" (for everyone). It is who's State it is built in or from.
By the way before anyone says something, it does not take days, months to regenerate US Military Logistics, Supply, Transportation, Water Purification, Food Service, VIP Protection, Intelligence, etc.. Example would you trust an inexperienced surgeon to cut you open (life or death situation, like combat).
It is not my intention to disclose "Classified Information".
Greenspan knew we were over the edge and lowered interest rates so the gullible would live off their equity which did indeed keep the illusion for a few years.The working class had been essentially gutted. Dotcom dreams, fraud, and unsustainable inflated realestate had replaced production. Remember ex-senator (shilling for McCain/Palin) Phil Gramm telling us we were in a mental recession just before the banks started to fail? I guess they were hoping to pull off privatizing social security before they lost power. After pension degenerated to 401ks invested in enron that would have been a mess. Lets get educated and make a better new decade.
Since wages did not rise, the average family went from one wage earner to two. When that did not cover the rising costs like healthcare, the average family sought to get money out of their homes. When that still did not cover the rising costs, the average family had now where else to go but to borrow to the hilt.
So now how do we get more blood out of that turnip?
I know.... lets outsource all the white collar jobs and bring the labor jobs and resource development back to the U.S, and try a "float up" instead "trickle down" economy
Trickle down has worked so well?Please no more trickling we were tricked. Nobody suggested sending away even more jobs of anykind. That was your idea. The white collar jobbers didn't care until theirs started to dwindle and as I can see from your thoughtless response still do not get it. Those little people you look down on affect your job too honey.Shrinking the economy is not a good idea even if it gets you cheap prices at walmart. IT, accountants and engineers are being offshored so white collar is not safe. Not to mention H1B visas.
Again, I'm going to say the main failure that caused the most recent recession was with every American that overextended themselves. We don't have to live in a huge house to live well. I can't stick too much blame with congress or anyone person when we were the ones digging our own pit.
The article talked about the mini mansions built in the sun belt that now sit empty, don't blame congress for making capital available. There was no way to predict what would happen, signs there or not. Blame those that selfishly took too much capital they hoped to give back.
Too many borrowed too much for too long. Blame who you will in congress or the party you will, but if everyone had lived within their means (weird huh), the economy would be in a much different state.
Rigger
Which had a huge effect on family values which in turn played a major role in many of the societal problems we face today.
Great story and mostly accurate. However, the macroeconomic reason for the lost decade is missed:
* The end of communism opened the doors to millions of workers with incredibly lower costs and incomes whom were eager to compete
* As these "emerging economies" gained new traction without the cloak of communism, they happily competed for and won jobs that middle income westerners once performed
* In an effort to "level the playing field", Uncle Greenspan lowered interest rates to ridiculous levels - and sparked a cheap credit and real estate boom. American's were able to borrow their way to seeming prosperity
* Now that the credit bubble is burst, the true US economy has emerged.
* Until former communist nations gain a level of income parity, we will hear more stories of the General Motors line worker whom earned $23 an hour in 1984 and is now earning $18 an hour in 2010
India is a former communist country?
We really don't need to wait for former communist and socialist countries to raise their wages. Why should they, their costs are much lower than ours. We need to de-unionize and be willing to take lower wages and fewer benefits, in the hopes that new companies will emerge and grow and eventually be able to increase wages and benefits. Harsh, but true.
Actually China still claims to be communist which is code for totalitarian rule. Kind of hard to have labor unions in a totalitarian regime with massive capital punishment.
Socialist countries like in the european union have strong labor unions and are doing better than we are.Their car companies *Germany) give say on managerial decisions for products and well you see how much better they have fared than our car companies.Union workers get the idea of being vested part of a team and surprise they want their company to succeed. They also do not have to absorb the medical insurance costs so our car companies were at a competitive disadvantage.
Good point, oldnewgrad,RN. The European auto companies have unions and their not in the toilet like GM and Chrysler. Maybe because they make a quality product that is bought all over the world. The right needs to stop scapegoating unions for the exodus of jobs. Greed and lack of quality by the pinstripe suits in the boardroom caused the mess that is the American auto industry. Those on the right are correct to question the infusion of cash into our failing car companies. Without a solid economy and a infusion of living wage jobs, G.M and Chrysler will wither on the vine because no matter how improved their vehicles may be, nobody in this economy will be able to afford to buy one. Ironic, isn't it?
Not to disagree; The USSR was Socialist. The Chinese are still Communists (Totalitarian). So what ended was a Socialist Nation as now known as the Russian Federation not the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR) and Warsaw Pact.
The reasons (after actually living at Europe for over 20 years):
Technical Trade School (College Level) and the Apprenticeship Learning Process (Licensing) as a separate College from Academic College. Note their Apprenticeship Programs (5-9 years) still involve being hit by the biggest thing around for doing something stupid. There are examples of these Trade Colleges all over Germany, France, etc.. Examples: The French Cordon Bleu School would be for Cooking/Baking. Deutsche Techinical Schule. And their Unions (merit based, Germans are sucking because of low birth rates) are different than the US (Organized Crime History).
Quality = Acceptable Fault Tolerances. US Specification = 7mm from Original Design. European/Asian (known as International) Specification = .5mm from Original Design. This translates to higher acceptable fault tolerances meaning more leaks, ill fitting parts, etc.. This is why the US parts manufacturers/supply/sources are not the same for the Jap/Kraut/Kim Chee Automakers, as the US manufacturers refused (past tense) to manufacturer to International Acceptable Fault Tolerances. So the Jap/Kraut/Kim Chee Automakers, one became US Franchises Incorporated in US (Delaware), two brought in their own feeder parts manufacturing plants/factories. While GM, Chrysler started to build high tech manufacturing (Fully Automated Computerized Self Calibrating Robotics opposed since 1980s by US Labor Unions) at Toluca, Mexico; Machau, China and Shanghai, China. And US Ford (FMC) switching to their International Standards from Ford AG. While GM, Chrysler refused to switch to their higher "measurable" quality of International Acceptable Fault Tolerances of GM Opel and Chrysler AG (left over from previous merger with Mercedes Benz, with the merger breaking down because of "quality" standards of Chrysler (refusal to accept International Acceptable Fault Tolerances)). also research GM Opel "International Car of Year" (google as that bing thing doesn't find the GM Opel website).
As a means but not the overall solution to achieve low Acceptable Fault Tolerances is Fully Automated Computerized Self Calibrating Robotics (written opposition by US Labor Unions and US Labor Union Lobbyists to Congress, my first experience was Fully Automated US Military Ammunition Plant (decrease deaths, increase output and quality. As opposed in writting by US Union Labor)). With these (inventions) originating in the US for 24/7/365 Manufacturing using self calibrating laser measurement (beyond "human eyeballing" (human capabilities)). With GM's, Chrysler's means to become "economically viable" as stated in 2009 Restructuring Plans (Finalized) and Congressional Testimony being: Closure of 1/3 US Plants/Factories and layoff of associated "Work Force" while retaining Toluca, Mexico; Machau, China and Shanghai, China. Making GM, Chrysler essentially a Mexican or Chinese car/truck/suv.
While the Jap/Kraut WWII survivors (now major CEOs, etc.) as payback for the Marshall Plan and MacArthur Plan moved to the US. As under the Marshall Plan and MacArthur Plan (US Military Governments (Results), not Civilian (Politics)) instated Laws to prevent them (as children) from starving to death. And the new generation of Japs/Krauts trained in the US stated in "position papers" their desire to withdraw from the US as they owe the US nothing.
A glimpse of this can be seen in "Graves of the Fireflies", as to why the Japs are so grateful for the MacArthur Plan. And unfortunately, the new US Trained generation has forgotten (or purposely since it was not them do not give a f(&* ).
It takes more than a totalitarian government to be considered a communist society. China may still officially avow communism, but in fact they have become ardent capitalists. Private property exists. Great fortunes are being made.
What they are not is democratic. China today should more accuratedly be called China LTD., a national corporation dedicated to the expansion of its economy. While the state does not actually own all the means of production, they are far more closely involved in the evolution and development of Chinese businesses.
India was never a communist country, China still is a commmunist country. The Soviet Union broke in the late 80's and early 90's. What communism are you talking about?
Haven't you figured it out yet, it's always those dirty rotten commies that are the problem.
It surely can't be union busting, shipping jobs out to countries that are basically using people as slaves, giving huge tax cuts to the wealthy so they can create more jobs overseas, letting investment banks and credit rating agencies come up with new ways to fleece money from the middle class, naw it couldn't be any of these things.
It has to be those dirty rotten commies.
Of course not. It's all Obamas fault, how dare him run for President and win!
China is not communist in terms of economics. They allow outside investors and companies to come in and take advantage of their cheap labor market. This is quite different from the closed off USSR and China pre 1980. Vietnam has also been opened up for outside investment. So, communism is simply used as a means to control the population, not as an overall economic policy.
No, The People's Republic of China has always been a totalitarian regime ruling in the name of communism. The economic system--separated from the political system--has vacilated between ideologically centrally controlled and practically regionally controlled.
Communism is a label, that's all. No country that claims to espouse it has ever applied the economic principles put forward by Marx. It has always been a sham.
Wizeguy, that is correct..how dare he
China is Communist (Totalitarian) in terms of economics if you were the Chinese Business person that was taken out tried, and executed for Treason (Crimes against the Chinese People) 2009. Can't remember if hung or shot (firing squad).
As many countries do not believe in "Victim of Circumstance" and only Results matter.
Let's see. China and India are head long into Capitalism. The Soviet Union is re-emerging as a super power under Communist rule. And Americans are easily fooled.Â
Not "Communist rule", try authoritarian (totalitarian), former KGB, former USSR Military (of the over 101 Elite Divisions of the former Warsaw Pact, not including the Strategic Missile Forces (after SALT and START)), USSR Spetsnaz, NVD/KGB. Employed one day and afterwards "kicked to the curb" unemployed and formed the "Russian Mob" ;certain former USSR General using his "organizational skills" after also being "kicked to the curb", unemployed). With the "Russian Mob" (financially) and former KGB (not FSB) actually running the Russian Federation (including trade with Iran, technology and weapons, just like the Chinese for Iranian Oil).
And after we leave Iraq the Chinese and Russian Federation increase their "Sphere of Influence" for the Oil at the Iraqis Northern and Southern Oil Fields. (look at who will prevent UN Sanctions as members of the UN Security Council, US out voted).
With Mexico, Canada, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, etc. Oil Laundrying Iraqis Oil since before the first Gulf War. Buying cheap Iraqis Oil and selling to US at huge profit.
Thats what happens when you elect a d average student!!!
Bush was a d average student!!! Really ???? wow !!!!! come on at least a C average student I am sure not Bushs fault seems to me the people are at fault
If the US was a democracy Bush would not have won the 2000 election. The rich have figured out how to game the system. Karl Rove is the king of propaganda and he and his cronies like Cheney and Rumsfeld used G.W. as their front man. G W was a stooge, as it is all explained in "The Prince" by Machevelli. Human behavior is quite predictable and all societies go through the same evolutionary processes. Humans never learn from their mistakes
Yes voting is for the peasants. The rich don't bother: two of the current Republican contenders for governor of California did not bother to vote as citizens and are now running for office. They were both ceo's of large companies.one was ebay.
China is still a communist country, India was never a communist country, there is no such thing as the Soviet Union anymore. In China the government still controls all the industries. You are easily fooled!
China has a totalitarian government but industry is pretty capitalistic. That's the deal they struck with their citizens: the government will allow people to get rich just as long as they don't get involved with politics.
I expect that after the general populace gets their primary needs met, they will turn to politics.
China is a capitalist country with communist control over it's people. Same with Vietnam. India was socialist until the 1970's, and when their economy has been growing since they introduced capitalism.
Capitalism is what creates wealth, too bad we stopped practicing it in America during the 1970's. We are socialist in everything but name.
Beth - if we are socialist, where is my government-provided health care? I sure could use it now.
The propaganda machine will continue to churn out bias and faulty information in 2010. I dont think it will be any better than 2009. Hold on to your hats, its still blowing out there.
The press still has gotten their math right. The current decade is not yet over - this decade began on Jan 1, 2001 (note '1' for 'first'), the decade ends Dec 31, 2010 (the end of the 10 years for the decade).
The press and our free enterprise businesses seeking sales with marketing verbage, had erroneously called it the beginning of the new century when we hit Jan 1, 2000 - actually, the beginning of the current century was Jan 1, 2001, this century will end on Dec, 31, 2100, which will be the end of the 21st century's 100 years.
Josh, we discussed this during the lead up to Y2K. While the argument that a decade runs from 2001 to 2010 is reasonable, it didn't catch traction. Our convention is that the aught decade (and we ought not to that again!) runs from 1/1/2000 to 12/12/2009
"Our convention is that the aught decade (and we ought not to that again!) runs from 1/1/2000 to 12/12/2009"
Uh...I think you mean 1/1/2000 to 12/31/2009
as the republicans are spineless and have mastered the art of dupe and deceive-im sure they will blame the democrats for the economy as well for the 10 year period lost
It would be a blame well placed but not completely all the Dem's fault. How ever the current administration's policies are in line for destroying the economy for the next 15 to 30 years if not forever.
anyday now I expect them to blame the texas based enron shenanigans on obama somehow someway.
AND believe it or not there will still be those that will vote against their best interests
That's what propaganda is for - to get dumb poor people to vote for the Republican agenda by selling them a disgusting stew of anti-gay, anti-Muslim, anti-abortion, anti-immigration, anti-science, anti everything except Auntie Em.
All of that and a whole lot more!
Thanks!
Everything seemed to decline with the enactment of NAFTA. I think NAFTA became a state of mind for politicians who pushed for out-sourcing and applied that methodology to China and India. In their political minds; I think they honestly believed that blue collar workers could easily and happily transition to service based jobs. Of course, there are only so many jobs available at McDonald's. Historically, I think Nixon's trip to China plated the seed, and Clinton made it a law. This mess, as with the current economy was a bipartisan effort.
Food for thought. The american economy began it's downturn in the late 1970s due to workers union extortion tactics. In order to combat the greedy workers unions, the auto industry which in fact powered our economy was forced to flee to other countries in order to survive. This auto industry incident of course created a trickle down affect on many other businesses which in time were forced out of business. Then there was the problem of lets say unfair taxation of businesses, for example former Governor Michael Dukakas of Massachusetts had wiped out the american garment industry by taxing them out of existence. This garment industry fiasco just like the auto industry had too caused another trickle down affect on many other businesses. After this lets say a domino affect occured throughout the economy and we lost many of our good paying jobs.
But then in the 1980s as these power industries that we once had were heading to mexico, the computer industry was born which gave us some relief. But now the computer industry is just about over since everybody else in the world can now produce computer technology.
After this all that we were left with were numbers jobs. Marketing and so fourth. But these pyramid scheme (fudge) jobs are now becoming bygones.
Now what do we have left? The answer is nothing. Someday we're going to wake up and realize that the only way we can afford to eat lets say is to go to McDonalds.
We're screwed folks.
no that started when Reagan attacked the working class and gave tax breaks to the wealthy and amnesty to illegals.
McDonalds spent millions lobbying to keep minimum wage low and he gladly complied along with the other cry poor mouth kiss corporate a$$ republicans.
Another poor soul drinking the GOP kool aid. Unions had nothing to do with the outsourcing of jobs. On the contrary, executives used outsorcing to blackmail the unions. Now Wal-Mart has replaced G.M as the nations largest employer. Now that everyone has $7 and $10 a hour jobs, who's going to buy those bright, shiny $30,000 American cars? Frycooks at Mc Donald's? Not to mention all those abandoned homes owned by the geniuses who run the banks.
Yes, the "Rip"ublicans have their fair share of the blame. But let's not give all the glory to those clod-hoppers. The "Dum"ocrats have matched them stride for stride with their own idiotic agendas that are 180 degrees in another dumbass direction.
Just the more reason for people to seriously consider a new alternative; THIRD PARTY. We need to break the stranglehold this two-party system has us in. Aren't the rest of you had it up to your eyeballs with going to the polls and choosing between the better of two evils? Besides looking at a candidate's track record (which so many sheeple haven't a clue about and end up voting purely on name recognition)...try using criteria like..."who's been the eternal incumbant", "who's a slimy cockroach...I mean LAWYER..." , and "who professes to have balls to buck the system and take on issues such as entitlement programs, the unconstitutional Federal Reserve (yeah JFK hinted that and I still question the Warren report), the out-of-control IRS and it's rediculously complicated tax laws (how bout a fair or even flat tax?), the willingness to flip the bird at lobbyists, and on the world scene....tell all these countries we're DONE playing referee.
I agree with your post, but I want to dispel democrat propaganda that people in the south who are republican are the uneducated. It's just the opposite. The same mentality of those welfare-ridden ghettos in the north is the same mentality of those who mostly voted democrat in the south, not the republicans. Democrats have the market on the low-life, uneducated, unmotived, freeloaders of which the south has its share, and they vote democrat.
How do we get more people to understand this?
As long as we have die hard D and R sheeple, this country will never recover.
There are many in politics and the media who thrive and make a lot of money/amass a lot of power on dividing the country, and we pretty much know who they are.
Get out and organize! That is what many of the tea parties are about, non-partisan efforts to reform government. Third parties can't get off the ground if we don't organize, get together, form a plan of attack, run for office, etc.
Beth, and our choices are?????? Beck, Bachmann and Palin.....no thank you.
too much -
You're obviously not willing to do any more research than what MSNBC is willing to tell you about the tea parties, so you need to do the typical liberal smear tactic and drop names you find polarizing.
NEWSFLASH:
The Tea Party movement actually started at the end of Bush's term, in response to BUSH'S overspending, big government policies. Glenn Beck helped publicize the movement but had nothing to do with its formation, no one had even heard of Michelle Bachman and Sarah Palin was busy delivering the death blow to McCain's already pathetic campaign.
Those three people, in the past several months, have latched on to the Tea Party movement, NOT the other way around.
Get a friggen clue, and realize: The Tea Party movment, and I'm not part of it but I sure as hell respect what they're trying to do, is bi-partisan. It is not Republican, even though the Republican's would like to latch on to it. It is anti-big government, anti-excessive taxation, and PRO-FREEDOM.
Are you PRO-big government, PRO-excessive taxation, ANTI-freedom?
Wake the F**** up and get some information from somewhere besides the government run, Obama leg humping media. You think you're so smart with your liberal bullcrap talking points, but the reality is, you don't even know what you're saying when you spew them. Get informed, then get back to me. I'll be waiting.
If you are a democrat, you hate the republicans(stupid conservatives with their trickle down economics) If you are republican, you hate the democrats ( stupid liberals wanting to let the government to take care of them). If you are poor, you hate the rich (greedy s.o.b.'s that don't care about anyone but themselves).If you are rich, you hate the poor (stupid lazy incompetents,that don't want to work hard and make their own money). If you are white, you hate the blacks, if you are black you hate the whites and and everyone hates the illegals and on and on.
Is it any real surprise that America is heading straight down hill? We are so busy pointing the finger and backstabbing the other guy, we don't have time to band together, and work to rebuild America. To bring her back to the greatness she once was! Wake up America! We are all in this together.
I am not worried about myself, I am way too old for any change to make a difference in my life, but I live in fear for the America my grandchildren will grow up in, if we can't find a way to work together for the common good!
I know these posts we all make here won't make a difference in the grand, scheme of things, but ranting like this helps us to vent!
the job you save may keep you or someone you know working. even a narrow minded republican or a over educated democrat.
Obama continues to do the same things that caused our economy to grow weak. Right now Obama is fighting two senseless wars overseas, spending billions to keep a steady stream of flag draped coffins enroute to cemetaries all over the United States.
Obama has bailed out Wall Street bankers, enacted legislation to give away more pork than any previous president, and is now poised to enrich medical insurance providers and hospital conglomerates.
All this hand wringing and blaming the previous administration is baloney. Obama is responsible for what he has done, which is making things worse. We have no chance of economic recovery with this boob and his crooked pals allowing special interests to gobble up all our tax dollars.
Anyone who couldn't see this at least 15 years ago was blind.
Companies and government jobs where employees retired in their 50's with nearly full pay and benefits, manufacturing sent to China when the products produced are not that dependent on labor costs, and regulations that stifle business and cause bad business decisions (requiring banks to make loans for non-tradional credit risks).
Two anecdotal exmaples that I know from personal experience. A teacher retired at 45 with over $40K salary from a MI public school 1993, and has been drawing full pay from a NY university since that time. Second example, an employee of Ford in MI retired in 1992 with over $40 salary at the age of 55. Multiply that by thousands and you have a lot of overhead that is not producing anything for the company. And now, BO wants more unions in the work force. Hello.
The world is thankful that we have sent them our money and jobs and made our companies just about non-competitive on the world market.
It is NOT the end of a decade yet, people. Check the definition. The end of the millenium was at the END of 2000. Therefore, 2001 begins the decade that will end with 2010. We have one more year to pull us back out of the muck. Then you can rewrite this story.
I argued that the end of the decade was at the end of 2010 too, but after doing a google search, the consensus is that decades start at 0. The example that changed my thinking was that the 70's were from 1970-1979, and so forth. It doesn't matter to me, but I did change my argument after a bit of research.
This puts a dent in the right-wing theories that war and tax cuts are good for the economy. It will take the economists a while to figure out how to explain the stagnant decade without involving defense spending and tax cuts, both which mainly benefited the wealthy in the last decade.
Let's check that theory. WW1 -democrat, WW2- democrat, Korean War-democrat, Vietnam - democrat. Opps war on Islamic fascists-republican. No republican said the war on Islamic fascists would help our economy.
No tax increase will help the economy either.
Are you really that short-sighted, Gus?
War and tax cuts certainly didn't help, but this financial crisis was decades in the making - not eight years of one president.
Well....plenty of US jobs were created...infact lots of jobs from lots of different nations were created...it's just that they all went tp places where labour is cheap - 'developing nations'
Genie is out of his bottle now so get over it....it won't stop any time soon. The only way to see any real job growth now is when people are living in relative poverty and are desperate enough to take a job with low pay and zero benefits.
We will be saved by the New World Order. Wokers of the World, Unite.
Typical media baloney, By the way the decade doesn't end untill 12-31-10. The lap dogs and quislings in the media are just repeating present Obama mouthings. If it came down to the real facts, I would rather have less than be under a socialist government, and thats what we have in Washington,DC. An America hate press and an American hater in the white house.
An socialist government and America hater in the WH?
If your post were more intelligent it might rise to the level of just stupid, but it's not even that.
This economic collapse goes beyond party affiliation. It resulted from many factors, mainly HUMAN GREED. Economists' memories are inhibited by greed.
We had learned valuable lessons, and made safety-net laws, in the Great Depression.
However, by 2000, these laws were all scrapped, in the name of deregulation.
Now we have to repeat history, and relearn the lessons.
you are absolutely right Bob, we made laws and then the lawyers of Wall Strret figured out how to get the Congress to scrap those laws. Ironic that Canada has good sound banks supported by good financial regulations. Guess what? Canada requires downpayments to buy homes and the interest is not deductible. Maybe Canadians have more common sense than The US electorate.
You are right! But the mistakes did not start at 2000! The mistakes have been made for the last 70 years! The crash is not over and it is going to be the biggest depression ever!
This sentence is not correct:
"For most of the past 70 years, the U.S. economy has grown at a steady clip, generating perpetually higher incomes and wealth for American households. But since 2000, the story is starkly different."
The US economy did NOT grow steadily. The US economy did NOT generate more wealth. People who come to this conclusion are only looking at GDP, income, home prices, stock prices. So I say, let us take a look at debt that has been accumulated at the same time:
http://www.tradingstocks.net/html/inflation_deflation_credit_bub.html
The total private debt is all time high, at 350% of GDP! This is not wealth. This is not progress! We have been spending borrowed money!
Public debt is reaching all time high as well. This is NOT a new trend. America has borrowed from the future for decades. An entire nation cannot borrow non-stop from the future and then expect that all will be fine when the future arrives.
All prices, salaries that you think makes you wealthy are based on a borrowed money supply. When the money supply deflates, current prices and salaries cannot be sustained! Stocks are a buble! This is like Tulip mania, South Sea Bubble. They will crash and not come back for another 100 years!
http://www.tradingstocks.net/html/near_bottom.html
Why would money supply deflate? Because when we borrow, banks create money. They do not lend existing money:
http://www.tradingstocks.net/html/banks_create_money.html
When the borrowing stops, deflation starts! Why would borrowing stop? Because the real economy cannot afford to pay the interest on existing debt anymore! 99% percent of the money in the economy is borrowed money! Existing debt can only be paid back with more borrowing. Borrowing has stopped! Money supply, which is bank credit is going to deflate. Obama is running around to tell the banks to lend. And they are not lending. Why are the banks not lending? Because they see this as a deflationary crash! They are doing what they think is right for their own survival.
Once the debt levels reach it's extreme, it is hard to sustain the ponzi scheme:
1. FED makes credit available. [Yes they do]
2. Banks must lend. [No they don't, because they don't think they will get their money back]
3. Borrowers must borrow. [No they don't, because they don't think they can pay it back]
4. For inflation to happen, consumers must spend extravagantly and chase too few products with too much money. [Consumer is a saver now]
Here is how the government tried to make it last:
http://www.tradingstocks.net/html/housing_market_bubble_bust_cyc.html
The crash is built into the monetary system. Fractional reserve banking is prone to inflation and deflation. We had the bank credit inflation for 70 years. Now it is deflating. The crash will go into history books:
http://www.tradingstocks.net/html/prepare_for_market_crash.html
Reagan deficits and deregulation started a great deal of this, along with "trickle-down", aka voodoo economics.
Everyone (most people) got accustomed to living on debt, and putting off the consequences. Government, consumers, business, all piled on debt.
I remember when the company where I worked was bought in a leveraged buy-out. We were told (with a straight face!) that we now owed a huge amount of money and needed to pay it off! Of course, when it was paid off (which it never was), we would not have been co-owners, just peons.
This is really the problem that government needs to address, what were the real and total causes of this backsliding, and how to we change policies to undo it!