That's for sure. Watch Congress pass another spendulous plan. Of course we will hear from the far left that it's all Bush's fault.

What does the government expect? Just because Obama sends out a few people that give us a bunch of bs, telling us the economy is turning around, because the tax payer funded clunker program was a success? They didn't tell these people they will have to pay it back on their 2010 tax reports! Then Obama, the Democrat party and the UNIONS, which are all in bed with each other. Let Saturn go down the tubes, why? Because they were making a profit, selling cars, without the UNION! So our economy continues to tank...I personally won't be surprised to see 12% unemployment by the elections in 2010. Which would spell UNEMPLOYMENT to the Democrats, in both the House and Senate. We have a man in the White House that hasn't a clue on how to run a nation, with a bunch of clowns on staff, in the House and Senate. That's the reason the employment rate will reach 10% today and go even higher in the coming months. We have a circus in Washington, keeping their own private health care plan, taxing the daylights out of us, giving themselves raises when there is 10% unemployment, disolving our militarty that keeps us safe, making friends with avowed enemies of America. Clowns, clowns, nothing more.

Yeah, we're a long way from this being over.

My boss was showing me a graph comparing the stock market prior to and during the Great Depression to what is going on with it currently and the parallels are down right scary. A lot of the factors that created the Big One in the 20's and 30's have happened or are happening now.

His advice which I completely agree with is get out of debt, save some cash and prepare for the worst. We're in for a bumpy ride.

they have not spent the first $$$$$$$$$$$, 25% of it...

It is far from over and things are going to get much tougher.

Lame duck Obama in 2010.

And to think there are people out there that ctually believe things are getting better.

Kool Aid stocks must be going through the roof

Um, John-385319 - Having the Olympics in Chicage will create plenty of jobs in the area. It happened in both LA and Atlanta. New buildings will be built, infrastructure upgraded and repaired, blue and white collar jobs added. To spend ONE DAY in Denmark to help this materialize is time well spent. You can't have it both ways, complain that the economy is in the tank and also compalin when the President is doing something that will create jobs. The clueless Obama bashing on this board is shameful. Did any of you really think that after 8 years or rapacious Republican greed that the affects could really be mitigated in less than a year?

What?! Right after Labor Day and tourist season?

WHO, could have POSSIBLY foreseen this news?!

Not the EFFEN economists that are preaching the end of the "Recesssion" [Which is really a Depression] that is going to last 3 more years!

I "LOVED" it when they told us that this WOULD NOT HAPPEN this YEAR!

FOOLS!

"If laid-off workers who have settled for part-time work or have given up looking for new jobs are included, the unemployment rate rose to 17 percent, the highest on records dating from 1994. More than a half-million unemployed people gave up looking for work last month. Had they continued searching, the official jobless rate would have been higher."

Let's see the media put a positive "spin" on this one. It's interesting how the government considers "More than a half-million unemployed people gave up looking for work last month" as no longer part of the unemployed.

I'm sure glad that Joe Biden has confirmed that the "stimulus has worked far better than expected", otherwise our unemployment might have "gotten over 8%". LOL LOL

We certainly got "Change we can believe in" didn't we.

Hope and change lol this pres is the worst in the history of this once great nation

Don't be fooled our unemployment is much much higher than what is being reported. During the depression our government used the U6 scale to report unemployment. At its highest unemployment was 24 percent in 1934. Today they use the U3 unemployment scale which eliminates many unemployed to make the numbers look better.

U6, on the other hand, is the broadest measure of Unemployment: It includes those people counted by U3, plus marginally attached workers (not looking, but want and are available for a job and have looked for work sometime in the recent past), as well as Persons employed part time for economic reasons (they want and are available for full-time work but have had to settle for a part-time schedule).

Unemployment is actually hovering around 20 percent. It will very soon over the next few months surpass the unemployment of the Great Depression. Make no mistake we are in a full blown depression. Obama is spending money as if we were in a boom. But this will only stall any recovery for our nation.

This is a graph of unemployment by the Government but the numbers are from the end of Sept. They look grim and you can see the TRUE UNEMPLOYMENT!!

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t12.htm

Obama's socialist agenda is destroying our Nation!!

Good thing we're up to our neck in debt for the Bush's Iraq War, Bush & Obama's Bailouts, and Obama's (non)Stimulus Plan.

Let's let the Republicans ruin America in 2010 and 2012. Maybe they'll do it differently than the Democrats.

...

yes, and what has it done for us, Something new please? NOTHING!!

The recession is over when GDP begins to climb, not when the jobs come back.

Okay Barrack, get off the message boards! You are going to lose your job also in 2012!

John - not true. The City of Atlanta made money from the Olympics. In addition, new neighborhoods blossomed where once there was nothing but urban blight. I know because I live in one of them. We have facilities that do get used where before there were none. I will admit, though, that the cycle velodrome proved to be pretty worthless. But judging from the number of tourists I see in centennial Olympic Park every day, I would say we are still reaping positive rewards from having hosted the games. If you only look for the negative, it is easy to find. That does not mean that postive do not exist too.

ilg,

please look back at previous olympic cities across the world.they generally are filled with corruption(perfect for chicago)and WAY over budget!the long term benefits out weigh the short term benefits.this is basically an attempt by the president to reward those who have supported him in chicago politics,unfortunately.

Something new Please You may be some what correct yet it is not going to happen with Obama and a Democratic Congress and Senate! The GDP was at its highest in American History during the Bush Administration and started to drop after the Democrats took control of the congress and senate. Now since you might like me to back up what I say look at the Graph provided by the Government.

Obama's socialist agenda spending is killing our country. The Taxes that are coming and the Taxes from Healthcare will be the nail in the coffin.

http://www.bea.gov/briefrm/gdp.htm

Obama has nothing to do with the economy being as bad as it is, so lay off. This is what years of being under a Republican Congress (and eventually president) got us. They did what big business wanted and removed all the checks and balances that should have prevented big business from creating the mess we are now in. It is stupid and unrealistic to think this mess will be fixed in a few months. It took us a long time to get here and will take a long time to get out of it. And take a little hit of responsibility on yourselves as your own complacency in allowing corporations to take over gov't by believing the sop that "if you work hard enough, you too can be rich.." is also to blame.

d burger - you hit it right on the head.

The "unemployment statistics" fed us by the lapdog media does not account for the unemployed that have run out of unemployment checks and the severely underemployed.

Like I've said before, the parallels between now and the Great Depression are really scary. We are a long way from from this being over.

Marie sorry to burst your bubble but it was Clinton that removed the legislation that protected the Nation from the Bankers not Bush. The Glass Stegall act was removed at Clintons request. But to be fair it was voted on by both sides of the isle. Yet after 9 months Obama and his cronies have not replace the legislation. It seems that Giethner is working for Wall Street and not the American people.

We need to have another party in the white house besides Dems and Rep. Yes this is all Bush's fault. He let crap happen on HIS watch. This is why he WILL go down in history as the WORST ever president to hold office, EVER. The guy is a hillbilly for crying out loud. A spoiled brat whom never had to fight his way out of anything on his own. Daddy always bailed him out.

We need to get out of the war to curtail spending. If you wanted Obama to do something about the economy he could of just walked in to all the corporations whom sent jobs overseas and told them either bring them back to America or face a HUGE tax burden. You people don't seem to understand how many jobs are overseas now that were our jobs. Millions upon millions of jobs are now overseas. The only way the economy is ever going to get back on track here in this country is for everyone and their dog to work for 2.00 bucks an hour and bring bread prices back to 10 cents a loaf. Everything else needs to come down in price to match the wages of foriegn workers. EVERYTHING. This unemployment rate is going to keep climbing and climbing till we have marches on Washington to do something about it. Nobody, I mean nobody is spending a dime right now cause YES they will loose there jobs eventually. This is what happens when you have an economy that outsources overseas. Obama can do nothing but throw bandaides on it. Until we come down in prices to match the world economy, we will continue to suffer and suffer we WILL. If we do nothing we WILL have a socialistic society where we HAVE to take from the rich and give to the poor. So get used to it cause the DAY is here.

What do you expect from this White House and the fools around him. They focus on 'everything' but the two most important issues. It's JOBS STUPID!!!!! These fools have not done anything said about 'how' to create jobs since Obama was on the campaign trail. His 'so-called' economic advisors (Harvard & MIT trained) DON'T HAVE A CLUE as to what to do. Instead of worrying about 'Chicago', he needs to be HOME working on how to create jobs and to 'make a decision' about our troops overseas. This whole administration is a joke, the blind leading the blind! There answer, just spend more money on everything! Got news for these guys, throwing money at the unions (Cars), giving more bailouts, DOES NOT CREATE JOBS which is the core solution to revive the economy. The old saying is true, 'ELECTIONS HAVE CONSEQUENCES'!!! How about that 'change'!! My opinion, vote this administration and it's congressional supports out of office ASAP!

yeah and bush did nothing but expand the jobs market in his 8 years. what were his accomplishments again? let's blame the guy who's been in there 8 months and took over a mess. or dont you remember that?

ORBUST- correct! Rham Emanuel said don't let a crisis go to waste and they haven't

For all you clingers to barry, you do realize he took 4 747's to try to secure the Olympics? This guy has an unbelievable ego. I can just imagine what ol' MSNBC would say if we were in this condition and bush was over there. Today, we would have a headline about how this trip cost well over a mil and how out of touch bush really is. The hypocrisy of the msm knows no bounds.

What idiot would tracel to Chitown anyway. We've seen your streets, it's not pretty.

The jobs are gone, it's as simple as that; If we want to compete, then we must become a third world nation; low wages, no benefits, no vacations, 60 hour work weeks, no overtime. no Workman's comp.,no unemployment benefits and no social security payments. Our government allowed corporations to move overseas, made lots of money, at the expense of the American middle class; we are now reaping what the corporation lobbyists and congress has sowed.

vol fan in chatt, tn

Many economists around the world seem to think that the Stimulus kept things from getting a lot worse. Look it up.

-----

Un-Common Common Sense

Quite the witty retort there.

----------------------

d burger
You're far too intelligent to make that argument. The high GDP under Bush was a bubble, as has become obvious in the last two years. It was the result of a great many financial shenanigans. Additionally, the lion's share of that money went to a very narrow percentage of the population. Now, it's the rest of us that are feeling the pain of that malfeasance. I can't believe you just made the argument that Bush/Repubs. were good stewards of the economy. Even the Republican party has distanced itself from that behavior (or tried to, anyway). Not a good argument on your part.
Also, if you're going to say that Obama's "socialist" policies are killing our country, you're going to have to offer proof. That means (1) stating an adverse fact or finding, and (2) establishing a causal connection between an Obama policy and said adverse fact or finding. When addressing the second point, please be weary of making logical leaps. It's one thing to say "there wasn't snow on the ground when I went to bed, but there was when I woke up. Hence, it snowed last night." It's quite another to say "my portfolio was worth x in January, it's worth (x-20%) now. So, it must be Obama's fault."
p.s. I don't like Senate Finance's version of "healthcare reform" either. The big reason for me is the taxes.

MikeFla

Obama stated that he is taking responsibility for our economy, why can't you accept it?

yeah and bush did nothing but expand the jobs market in his 8 years. what were his accomplishments again? let's blame the guy who's been in there 8 months and took over a mess. or dont you remember that?

Even if you believe that Obama had nothing to do with causing this, and I'd have to agree that the housing bubble which was a lot of people's fault on both sides of the aisle, you have to concede that he hasn't made the situation any BETTER. But then, why the hell would anyone expect him to. His qualifications are that he's a community organizer in the ACORN tradition and a skilled orator. Nothing more. He has no clue how the economy works.

Obama's crap and trade bill will add more gasoline to this fire.

This doesn't surprise me. Cash for clunkers was a temporary employment fix not a long term one. His new cash for clunker appliance program will be the same. Short little spurts. It may help some get caught up on bills, but when the program is over they will be out of work again only to add more stress to their lives. It's like putting a couple drops of gas in your lawn mower it may start with a couple of drops but it won't keep running. For those of you that think that his short but not so sweet economy boost are a good thing you need to look at the big picture. I live in a town of about 3000 in our local paper last week there were about 35 houses/properties in foreclosure and about 10 more that had a notice of trustee sale. That is a lot for a small town. It's not getting better. There are businesses closing left and right. It's sad and it's scary.

This economy does not belong to George W. Bush anymore. For the last two-and-a-half years, Barry and the Democrats had control of congress, and now they control the presidency as well. Sorry, Barry and the democrats need to take responsibility at some time.

ILG, A reporter asked Chicago's Mayor Daley—what was the agreement you signed on to in Switzerland?

“I signed nothing!” Daley cried out. He ran from behind his podium and stopped directly in front of me, shouting and giggling inches from my face. “I signed nothing! Please! Write that—the Reader! Please! I signed nothing! I signed nothing! I don’t know where you get that—I signed nothing!”

My mistake—he merely promised to sign something: an agreement that the city would cover any cost overruns if it hosts the games.

The mayor was still cracking up as he returned to the podium and promised that more details on the plan would follow—as soon as he and the bid committee had any. “We have not come up with that end plan yet,” he said, but vowed that when they did, “We’ll be briefing you on it.”

Why would he be talking about cost overruns if it was not likely the city would have cost overruns. Oh, and by the way, you may want to actually speak to the citizens of Atlanta about how much they enjoyed having the Olympics there. You would change your point of view.

I was an avid supporter of Bush through most of his term. I also own 2 businesses, one is a land surveying and civil engineering business and the other a retail store, brick and mortar. I easily preidcted this day back in early 2007. The recession began a full force attack well before December 2007, perhaps as early as mid 2006. All one has to do is look at declining sales in small business, it is simple math.

I do not like Obama much at all, I think he was too young and inexperienced for the job. However he inherited a firestorm like no other in the history of this country. I was telling people in 2007 that we are not experiencing a recession, that in fact we are experiencing the slow beginning of a deepening depression.

What Bush failed to do was to act on a very obvious wall of fire sweeping the country. Why couldn't any of the "brilliant" minds in Washington figure out that the major industry, home building, was collapsing and what that collapse was going to do. How could I figure out that the impending flames were creating their own fuel but the President (Bush) didn't know that gasoline had reached $3.00 per gallon.

Bush stood by and did nothing, absolutely nothing. The economy was allowed to burn. Something could have been done back then but nothing was. It isn't rocket science to figure out that if you don't repair the small leak it will evolve into a giant leak. If you have ever been on an ocean going ship you will find hundreds of water tight hatches throughout the ship. Many these hatches are kept secure to prevent the spread of water that may begin to flood the ship. The other hatches are sealed once the ship developes a serious leak. They do this in order to prevent the ship from sinking. Thanks to Bush's inaction...we are sunk.

The real number is 17% of the stimulus money has been let out...the rest they are saving till August 2010....to give to Democrats dish out in their home districts to buy the Mid-term election. ....Shovel-ready projects ?? ...yeah right...what a joke !!

ILG, question:

If the Olympics are in Chicago, and does create jobs for those working there, who can afford to attend the Olympics? I'm talking the normal person, not an athlete or a family member of one. One thing that I noticed is that the audience is shrinking in the stands, not counting the opening of the Olympics. From what I hear, the tickets are overpriced and common sense says that most likely everything else being sold there: food, souvenirs, etc. will be overpriced as well. It's not worth it.

Now, I heard a rumor and I don't know if it is true: The last few places where the Olympics took place, have spent more than what they have received. And in China, some of the buildings that were built and were used for the Olympics or to cater to tourists, are not being used at all now.

Jim-736496

Stop blaming Bush. Congress is to blame period. Even though many in office acknowledged the potential of the sub-prime market collapse, Barney Frank continued to state there are no problems right up to 3 months prior to the collapse. Chris Dodd continued to push for low income families to purchase homes that they can't afford. It is all about Congress not doing their job as their approval ratings demonstrate. After all, Congress has a lower approval rating than Bush EVER had.

MikeFla

the fact is that if the economy turned around tomorrow it would be because of the incredible policies of bush and the leadership of the republican party, e.g. limbaugh. if it fails its obama's fault. as you see regardless of the outcome they wont give him any credit.

You've got it backwards, anything good even lies that support good the Obama administration and Democrats try to take responsibility for. Anything bad, and it's Bush's fault. Nice try, NOT!

Pelosi and gang are still stating that the Republicans don't have a plan to offer for medical reform. They must not have read the three bills offered by the Republicans. Gee, what bills have they read anyways?

The media is fixated lately on letting us know the recession is over, presumably so that we will think Obama is smart and we should continue to do everything he wants to do. Healthcare, card check, etc, etc. But it doesn't take much intelligence to look around and see that things are NOT getting better. He told us that without the stimulus bill being passed immediately, unemployment could reach 8%. So it was passed, and guess what? We are now at 9.8%! Of couse, the white house says, "Just think how much worse it would have been WITHOUT the stimulus." But again, the critics at the time said that not only would the stimulus not help, but would actually HURT the economy. I think they were right. Big waste of money to end up worse off. (But then, it was never about stimulating the ecomony anyway, was it? It was a way to put liberalism on a fast track and secure pork for the folks back home all in the name of helping the economy.... Remember, "Never let a good crisis go to waste!"

Checkmate-983933

Hosting an Olympics doesn't just bring jobs to that city. When you do construction, in particular, you have to get equipment and materials from all over. As for revenue, much of it comes, not from ticket sales, but from advertising and sponsorships. Again, those jobs go all over. As to the long-term financial benefits of hosting an Olympics, the results have been mixed. There are several studies on the subject if you're really interested.

I think it is strange that everyone thinks this will bring job you are talking about the games for 2016. It does not help now!!! Despite what most think President could have help stop Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac when He was elected senator. But at the time did not weigh in one way or another. So he is just as much a part of the problem as any politican!!! Also the Bill passed by the Senate, the House and Signed by President Clinton to remove the safe guards in place to protect us from this very awful financial crisis was done long before the last 8 and President Clinton himself has been involved in his own share of financial Scandals. As far as I can tell BOTH SIDES have reaped financial gains. Plus President Clinton signed NAFTA which was the last nail in an already doing job market. So as far as the Mess we are in it has now been the last 17 years. Just two cents from an Independent

Unemployement has climbed to what? Hmmmm, I wonder what Denmark is like this time of year?

Bruce-308647

Just to clarify, it's economists saying the recession is over and the media reporting it. If economists were saying the opposite, the media would be reporting the opposite. Cause...effect.

Hmmmm, that giant sucking sound ---- it's China and India. It is a rush to the the bottom - bottom paying jobs, bottom lifestyle, bottom environmental quality, bottom with child labor, etc. It is not a level playing field.

LMAO.....Some one somewhere is gotta be the worlds champion at being the most stupidest, dumbest, blind, inept, incompetent, person on the face of this earth as proven with the use of only one word!!!

UNEXPECTED

What a freakin MORON this person is.....Where does this person live??? In the White House?????

From what I hear, the real Unemployment Rate is at 22% when you total up everyone that is out of work, and not play games with the numbers as this Administration appears to be doing..... I know, Reality hurts Obama, gives him a headache....

I need to feed and clothe my children tomorrow. I can't wait 5 years.

RV in GB#1 "This economy does not belong to George W. Bush anymore. For the last two-and-a-half years, Barry and the Democrats had control of congress, and now they control the presidency as well"

Interestingly, the Democrat controlled Congress, starting in 2006, opposed everything Bush proposed to fix economic problems as the original "Party of No", and now they want to blame Bush.

Here are some truths about Bush's economic performance that you might find interesting:

The reality is that the economy hasn't been all that bad under Bush. In fact, if you look at the overall average "Misery Index" (Jimmy Carter's infamous combined Inflation & Unemployment Rates) for Bush, it will be only 8.10%, the second best in the last 40 years and barely above Clinton's 7.80%, and way below Jimmy Carter's 16.27% (Carter's got as high as 21.98%). In fact, Bush's index for his last month was less than 6%. If you factor in the averages for the other two broad economic indicators of average Interest Rates on the National Debt (Bush 4.84%, Clinton 6.86%) and deduct (higher is better) average Gross Domestic Product growth (GDP – Bush 4.75%, Clinton 5.45% ), one could easily argue that Bush's total economic performance was significantly better than Clinton's (Bush = 8.10% + 4.84% - 4.75% = 8.19%, Clinton = 7.80% + 6.86% - 5.45% = 9.21%), and remember, Bush had to deal with the “inherited” devastating effects of 9/11 or his average figures would be even better. Even the average National Debt (as a % of the GDP, which is how economists view it since it reflects our ability to pay the interest) will average about the same under Bush (63.4%) as under Clinton (63.3%), and even though the nominal National Debt was higher under Bush, the actual interest paid on that debt was essentially the same under Bush as under Clinton because Bush's interest rates were lower. Despite claims by the undereducated, Clinton never had a single Fiscal Year where he actually reduced the National Debt. LOL

Sources – Wikipedia (Misery Index), Federal Office of Management and Budget (Gross Domestic Product growth), Federal Reserve (Interest Rates, National Debt).

PS – I would fault Bush for the Iraq war, but remember, after 9/11 Congress (including most prominent Democrats) authorized the war because we didn't want to risk an even worse attack, and even Saddam Hussein admitted to deceiving us about having WMDs. Also, Bush did keep us safe and terrorized the terrorists for seven and a half years, for which we can all be thankful.

It should be interesting to see how Obama does. My biggest concern is the Debt that Obama plans to incur by pursuing his socialist dreams. It appears that Obama will increase the National Debt by at least $10 Trillion over the next 8 years, and if the interest rate goes up to the 8.05% incurred under Jimmy Carter, it will cost the average American family of four an EXTRA $15,000+ in taxes PER YEAR ($1,300 per month)– JUST TO PAY THE INCREASED INTEREST ON THE NATIONAL DEBT. Under Bush the average increased interest per year (versus Clinton) for a family of four was just $60. Our children and grandchildren will have a DRAMATICALLY lower standard of living, thanks to this wild spending.

For some reason I am not surprised about the unemployment rate rising. People are beginning to lose faith in our "Change You Can Believe In" Its going to get much worse in the coming year. I almost believe this President wants the economy to tank in order to sell this Government Health Care garbage that will tax the hell out of all of us in our goods and services down the road. What has the Government ever run that is not corrupt in many ways? I agree that health care is ridiculous and change is needed but give the people a chance to vote on it.

Hosting an Olympics doesn't just bring jobs to that city. When you do construction, in particular, you have to get equipment and materials from all over. As for revenue, much of it comes, not from ticket sales, but from advertising and sponsorships. Again, those jobs go all over. As to the long-term financial benefits of hosting an Olympics, the results have been mixed. There are several studies on the subject if you're really interested

Long-term is what everyone wants. Short-term means nothing especially if you are still in debt (or the state/country being in debt). Who pays for the materials and the construction and where do they get the money from?

Who cares about lost jobs, as long as the retiring CEO of "B of A" gets his 125 mills.

To the person in a post #1.60 Now you know where to get some of your tax money. Just take a ride to the SOB mension.

My god!!! So many of you are incredibly stupid!!!!!!!

How many times does it need to be said before you folks understand this??? THE REASON WHY UNEMPLOYMENT IS SO HIGH IS BECAUSE OF THE JOKE AND LIE CALLED FREE TRADE!!!!!

Blaming Bush or Obama for something that both parties support is absurd!!!! We need to elect officials that will demand that over 70% of all products & components sold in the US ARE MADE IN THE US!!!!!

When we do this, limit outsourcing/work visas (in-sourcing) to about 10%, and start supporting domestic manufacturing efforts with our dollars, we'll see unemployment rates sink like a stone.

This can also be replicated in other countries, which will help their unemployment rates as well. It's time for a return to prosperity.

DATELINE: Campaign of 2012----It's only been 3-1/2 years. We are doing the best we possiby can. It's Bush's fault!

Chicago eliminated from consideration for the olympics in the first round of voting. I guess the world does not care what Obama thinks. Millions down the drain in travel costs to American Taxpayers!!

tim layman is really smart - unless you point out that in 2001, the senate was actually controlled by the democrats (http://uspolitics.about.com/od/usgovernment/l/bl_party_division_2.htm). Nice try on the 12 years thing though. Also, are you just going to stick with names like "Neo-cons", or are you going to move on to advanced name calling and use the term "Birthers"?

I'm going to surprise you here - I agree that Bush was a big part of the reason that we are facing the economic problems that we are facing - he failed as a president. People like you, however, will not admit that Obama is failing also. He spent over $60 Billion on the auto industry - which is failing. He will spend almost $800 Billion on a stimulus package - which is failing. Where was Obama recently? He was negotiating with Iran (can't wait to see how that ends up), and begging to get the Olymics in Chicago (which was eliminated in the first round.)

You cannot be taken seriously until you admit that Obama is failing and identify where he is failing.

MikeFla, Bravo!

Dude-875416, You really should stop drinking the Koolaid. Here's an idea: make an attempt to get the truth, because you are doing a disservice to yourself and the country by spouting off these stupid neo-con BS points.

Checkmate-983933

"Who pays for the materials and the construction and where do they get the money from?"

Good question. Some of the money comes from sponsorships and advertising. Those dollars begin to flow day 1, as advertisers line up to be "The Official ____________of the Chicago Olympics." Then you have partners putting up money for the sites. When you build an Olympic Village for the athletes, they become condos afterwards. Partnerships deals get established with developers. Who pays what on the front end and gets what on the back end varies from Olympics to Olympics. I'm as concerned about scheming here as the next person. Overall, the money starts flowing quickly as bids go out for the design/build. Then, the companies and their employees will pay taxes...you get the idea. Personally, I think the Olympic issue is moot as Rio will probably get it. Although, Chicago is the front-runner according to British bookmakers. Anyone here taking bets?

Has anyone heard when Joe Biden's funeral is taking place?

RV in GB#1

And for how long were the Democrats in power in 2001 (when Jeffords became an independent)?

I agree that Obama has made mistakes, as would any rational person. What I don't agree with is that he's failing. Thinking that he's failing or that "I've lost my country and need to get it back" are indefensible positions borne of ignorance and/or irrational thought. Take your pick.

RE Maria and de-regulating.

The Law in question was a bi-partisan effort. The republicans were in solid but not commanding control of both the house and senate in 1999. Conservative Newt Gingrich had resigned leaving the House leadership to Moderate Republicans who approved the legislation. This along with the moderate republican leadership got this through. More than half of both parties voted for this bill in both houses. Only the staunchest conservatives did not vote for the bill. Bill Clinton had no problem signing the bill.

Now, the deregulation myth. The bill did not de-regulate but re-regulate. It required banks to accept applicants with lesser qualifactions than established in the 1930's under threat of discrimination repercussions. The bill required banks to make a certain percentage of these high risk loans or they would be left out on other profitable ventures. Good banks would accept the minimum number of loans. The rest went to bottom feeders who were preying on people.

Those same bottom feeders then packed bad loans with good loans and sold them to good banks and foreign entities as good loans. Some of those same bottom feeders came from the Clinton administration and now are in some capacity in the Obama administration.

Good luck finding a republican bottom feeder. To date, I haven't seen a name printed in any media fingering one specific republican. But a quite a number of democrats were. How the blame has been placed is on those "evil corporations". That's a genius way to put it. Big finance, big business has been painted to be unfeeling conservative republicans. If it is true, why did 2/3's of all finance contributions go to Democrats in 2008? And, why are 11 of the 15 wealthiest americans in Forbes Magazine top 400 list publicly avowed liberals and supporters of this current administration?

Instead of towing the party line, and only listening to those of that party, be an independent democrat or independent republican. Listen and read everyone, eventually the whole truth becomes apparent. There is a much bigger world than either of these two parties.

Examples of malfeasance on the part of Obama, that have exacerbated the economic problems in this country:

TARP and TALF. (TARP in conjuction with Bush, of course) $1 TRILLION dollars to the banking and finance industries, car companies, of which we will likely not see more than half returned. The socialization of loss, the privitization of gain. And yet, he is a man of the people? Which people? His rich friends and campaign contributors on Wall Street, that's who.

The Stimulus. Big, big promises made to cram this through Congress, giving them 18 hours to read it. The bill is filled with pork, and is timed to give the democrats a nice little bump next year - just before the elections. It will be too little, too late. The people are on to them and him.

Healthcare. By failing to deal with the illegal immigration BEFORE dealing with healthcare, he proved to this country how inept he is at prioritizing. By continuing to push a health care agenda that people do NOT want, and failing to push a reform agenda that will actually save people money, he proves to the American people that his ideologies will block rational thought. If he signs this, it may as well have a resignation amendment attached to it, because the Baucus bill is loaded with Constitutional violations. And, it contains many taxes and other cost increases on people below $250K income - which he promised would not happen. We heard that promise, and he will be held accountable for the lie.

Cap & Tax. The spector of this, combined with the spector of health care, are stopping business that might want to hire from doing so, because they have no idea what their liability for either is going to end up being. Meanwhile, this will cost the average Amercican family almost $2,000 a year. Who's going to pay that, when they don't have a job?

Card Check. The threat this presents to small business cannot be overstated. We have seen what unions do, when unions get control. They drive business into the ground.

That's off the top of my head. Refute it if you can, with facts. I called no one any names, and would appreciate the same courtesy in return.

bottom line ; BIG Government, and BIG Business, wants ALL The Money !!..forget the General Public, they can wade it out, so they think..people are getting desperate, police shootings/ killings have quadrupled this year alone in L.A..crime is skyrocketing, stores have more employees than customers..peoples attire and basic hygiene is taking for the worst..there are signs out there, that this ECONOMY has went to HELL.. THANKS AMERICA, for taking care of the World, and forgetting about YOUR OWN................

Bush and republicans - free trade, unemployment rate 4.6%

Obama and democrats - protectionist, unemployment rate 9.8% and rising.

Free trade helps the economy, protectionism may "feel good", but hurts the economy.

The job loss number is 551,000.

The media is sugar coating the true facts again.

Who knows what the exact number is?.

I believe the 551,000. There are 6,000,000 people out of work, and how many others who have given up.

The funds for Unemployment Checks are going to run out---there will be no more money to support the jobless.

Rationing and long food lines. We are having the 2nd Great Depression.

Top Priority for President Obama.

Getting the Olympics here.

PragmaticToAFault

You promised to give examples of malfeasance, yet offer none.

TARP - If I accept your predictions about less than 50% coming back, which I don't, it's a mistake, not malfeasance.

Stimulus - Stop with the 18 hours. How did Congress have 18 hours, yet news channels were talking about individual items in the bill days prior? The final bill had 18 hours, at which point everyone had known and debated its contents. Aside from that, the money is already going out and at an increasing pace. Nobody ever said it would be spent in 8 months or a year. The tax portion (almost a third of the stimulus) couldn't be spent that fast. And pork? Please point to a single "pork" project, that you can prove has received stimulus funds.

Healthcare - What portion of this country's $2.5 trillion healthcare tab gets spent on illegals? You're bringing about a ridiculous talking point that is made to distract from the real issue: this country is getting fleeced by private insurance companies. They're robbing us blind and Congress (Dem and Repub) has done nothing about it. Regardless, you don't even suggest malfeasance when discussing this. You only say it's a bad idea.

Cap & Trade - Do you have any evidence at all that "the specter" of this is causing businesses to stop hirind? Any proof at all? Warning: Joe the Plumber isn't proof. Again, where's the malfeasance?

Card Check - A threat to small businesses? Please explain. This might actually be worth talking about.

-----

Misfeasance is determined in relation to privity of contract. When a contract creates a duty that does not exist at common law, the parties can do one of three things: (1) perform the duty fully; (2) perform the duty inadequately or poorly; or (3) fail to perform the duty at all. When a party fails to perform at all, it is nonfeasance. When a party performs the duty inadequately or poorly, it is misfeasance. Malfeasance is used to denote outright sabotage which causes intentional damage.

Pardon the citation from Wikipedia. It's not the best source, I know.

Valhalla Phil

Are you saying that unemployment jumped 5% in eight months? What protectionism? Buy America? That's been around for years; a requirement of any contract paid with federal funds. What are you talking about?

Jimmy Carter syndrome ... yes .... Jimmy Carter syndrome!

Everything he touched turned to ruin. That same disease now plaques our nation. We have an administration that has jumped on a new set of railroad tracks that lead to nowhere. The United States does not function like this. But we have gone mad! We have taken the unreasonable stance that "square pegs will fit in round holes".

I am involved with a sales business. There used to be two groups the English speaking group and the Spanish speaking group. The old General Manager spoke both languages. He's gone! The new general manager that was just brought on does not speak English. Since we have English only salespeople and bi-lingual salespeople, why would management bring on a man that has lived here in the United States for 10 years and still does not speak a lick of English? (pairs down his prospects... don't you think?) To make matters worse, the English group has been gobbled up by the Spanish group, and their regional sales manager has been here 20 years and does not speak a lick of English! Many in the English group are thinking "discrimination" and there is a storm brewing. The country has gone mad! No requirements for becoming an American Citizen. (By the way... sales are drastically down and the management can't figure it out.)

Just as the whole of the thrust of this administrations programs have gone mad. It's a whole lotta reforming for traditional Americans to make to assimilate to their own country! It's like taking a steak out for the 6 month old to chew on. Doesn't fit... and neither is this governing process fit to be called the United States of America. I would go as far as to say that almost everything that The Obama Administration stands for, and the Democratic Congress stands for, is out of step with what America is. But they're working real hard to convince us of what it should become.

Yes, the people wanted a new kind of king... and that is what they got. How foolish we were to bury our heads in the sand. 2012 is a long way off, and so is 2010.

(... what... we didn't get the Olympic Games? Couldn't the President pull a rabbit out of his a$$? Jimmy Carter syndrome!)

WE need to start running OUR government like it were a business. 1Elect ALL new officals, do away with lobbiest. 2 STOP spending, 3 Stop with all of the over seas aid giving, 4 Pull out of sand land 100%. Mark it up to a really bad decision in the first place - OR drop one more bomb to end it. 6 Get back all of OUR money that ScumBama gave / loaned out. 6 Put our jobless to work as boarder guards at Mexico, and to round up any and all illegals.

This should do for starters

Something new please:

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

That is the "contract" Obama swore to uphold when he took the oath of office. You could argue that he is doing his best. In which case, his best is simply not good enough.

If you want to get into semantics with me on the difference between nonfeasance, malfeasance and misfeasance, we could do that all day long because there's plenty of all three. He has been warned, and acknolwedged said warning, about the dangers of the deficit and debt to this country. And yet he keeps spending, and keeps pushing his agenda, that will cost trillions that we do not have, while more and more people lack jobs and the income from taxation drops and drops.

As far as I'm concerned, that qualifies as malfeasance. He knows full well what damage the increasing deficits will do to growth potential, and willfully disgregards it, pushing his agenda. Sabotage, indeed.

doc of va.

Only 25% spent ...

Yes, because that was an ill conceived plan rushed through without any thought, this adminstration has no clue how to fix the problem, no one has a business background so how are they going to get us out of this mess, lawyers are only good for one thing taking our money that's why we are getting further in the hole .....

John:

Excellent! mmm mmm mmm; keep singing the happy tune.

What are they going to tell the schoolchildren now?

Campbell's Soup is mmm mmm good?

Illegals cost the system 2.0% - 2008

Just the jury awards for malpractice is about 3.6%

Insurance profit 2008 4.0% - Nomally 0.5% - 1.5%

Defensive medicine, Preditory testing for profit, uncoordinated testing 35.0%(Insurance companies number, 40% - 50% AMA (17% of doctors) - McCain said government number to be $100 Billion, but may have meant $1 Trillion.

And does anyone seen any concern on these politicians faces as we slip further into this recession they are only concerned with their own stupid interest that will do nothing to solve the problems we now face, they are trying to fix a problem that has been here for 3 decades, talk about a bunch of MORONS, so now we are talking about what 15-18 million people that can't afford their affordable health care because they have no jobs, it's only afforable if people have jobs ......

What is with all this "unexpected" news. Each week it's reported that unemployment "unexpectedly" rises. Anyone who took Economics 101 knows that the policies being pursued by this administration have ALWAYS failed. Even Jack Kennedy admitted that if you want to get the economy moving, you cut taxes and decrease government spending. For those who haven't taken Econ 101, just answer one question: If you have more money in your pocket as a result of a lesser tax, are you likely to spend more or less money? Also, if you have less money in your pocket, are you going to spend more or less money? Along the same lines, does it make any difference how much you spend if you view your long-term prospects as having more/less money in your future? I realize this is all common sense, but way too many people don't seem to understand this.

Tremaine

Our schools can't afford Cambell's soup ...

We need petitions for recall of our government, and for a resolution to have elections on Jan 1, 2010. The "emergency save our country" campaign!

Jimmy Carter... err... Barack Obama must be replaced!

Something new please,

I absolutely can defend the fact that Obama is failing, and I never said "I've lost my country and need to get it back" - as you stated in your post. Would you like a listing of his failures with bullet points or can I just state them in paragraph form? I spoon fed the stimulus plan failure as well as the automobile bailout to you already. What else do you need? The olympic bid - another failure. How is that withdrawl from Iraq and Afghanistan going? He actually increased spending on both - another failure. I can give you more failures if you need them, but I think that the near $1 Trillion in failures that I have given you already should suffice.

PragmaticToAFault

No semantic arguments. Agreed. All I ask is that you please be careful with your words.

If you want to argue that Obama's best isn't good enough, that's fine as well. However, I would like some real argument to back that up. The only argument you present in your last post is this:

"And yet he keeps spending, and keeps pushing his agenda, that will cost trillions that we do not have, while more and more people lack jobs and the income from taxation drops and drops."

How does he keep spending? I'm well aware of the Stimulus bill from Feb. (Not "his" bill, but he definitely supported it.) How does he "keep" spending? Healthcare? Part of his agenda, but he has not submitted a bill to congress for consideration. I heard him ask for a deficit neutral bill. Personally, I hate the Senate Finance bill. If he signs that bill in anything like its current form, I'll be right there with you yelling and screaming.

What else? Cap and Trade? First off it hasn't happened yet. Second, as with meaningful healthcare reform, the costs can be calculated ahead of time. But the benefits cannot, not accurately anyway. There is a great deal of debate regarding the benefits (cost savings) of healthcare reform, Cap and Trade, and other efforts. As I told many Dems who thought the world would end because of Bush, it's foolish to think that a president will bring down this country in four or eight years. Bush did his best and it still didn't happen. What do you think President McCain and VP Palin would be doing right now to fix things? Hell, the tax on healthcare benefits in the Senate Finance bill (man, what a bad idea) was part of McCain's plan. Is your answer like that ofmany on this vine: "They all suck." Who will you vote for in 2010? (R) or (D)? And whoever you vote for, what makes you think they won't just step in line behind their party? Everyone wants change, that's why they voted for Obama. The problem is, real change is hard to find - it's not to be found between the couch cushions.

But the messiah and his disciples said unemployment would not go over 8%.

9.8% isn't close to the actual unemployment rate. This morning on the real news, as opposed the the typical A&P hogwash, indicated that if you include those who have used up their unemployment benefits and those who were self employed and lost their business's the unemployment rate was at 17%. Great job by our congress with their worthless idiotic cash for clunkers programs and other mindless congressional antics. So Obama, what are you going to do next? You apparently could care less about the citizens of the United States. You give big business mind boggling amounts of money to go overseas and eliminate even more jobs and you do absolutely nothing for America, other than go to the Olympics Committee and try to get the Olympics to come to Chicago of all places. What exactly is your agenda Mr. Obama, where are all those jobs you promised? The situation is getting worse each day and yet your more worried about the Olympics. This is pure bull@!$%# and it not only includes Obama, it's those worthless selfgratifying congressional representatives who should be held responsible and had better come up with some good reasons why we're in the condition we're in. If our representatives we're half as patriotic as the citizens they proclaim they represent we wouldn't be in this situation. All I can say is that I hope there are major changes made in congress and the executive office over the next two elections and that includes both republicans and democrates.

ROY WILSON-336103 - Your analysis in post number 1.61 is very interesting. That is the first time that I've seen the numbers layed out like that. I would have liked to see Bush fight harder toward the end of his presidency when we could see the direction that the housing market was going, but your post sheds an interesting light on his economic policies as a whole.

RV in GB#1

Just because you say "stimulus" and "failure" in the same sentence does not actually make it a failure. In other words, it's not a failure because you say so. Argument involves you making an assertion, then supporting that assertion with empiricalevidence. The stimulus is not a failure according to a number of world-renowned economists. Obama never said "pass the stimulus, and unemployment will start going down in 8 months." He said it would save or create 3 or 4 million jobs (can't remember; too lazy to look it up). He never said those jobs would be created overnight.

And the auto bailout? How was that a failure? For the record, I was against it, and I still am. But please, explain to me how you can already call it a failure? The Olympic bid? Are you kidding me? Seriously? It wasn't his bid. It wasn't his project. He made a one-day trip to try and help America out and visited McChrystal on the way. You're obviously grasping at straws at this point.

Withdrawal from Afghanistan? In his campaign, he promised to stay in Afghanistan. What are you talking about? Withdrawal from Iraq? It's going quite nicely:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8283910.stm

Yeah, you really know how to make a good argument. I feel stumped and generally defeated. What was I thinking?

ANP,

Don't you think the POTUS has more pressing issues to deal with other than the IOC? And given the competition Chicago didn't stand a chance anyway. If I was going to choose a place to go it would not be Chicago over Rio.

DWF

I absolutely agree that the Olympics should not be the president's top priority right now. However, I don't see a few hour trip to Denmark as being indicative of it being his top priority. From what I've heard, it's possible to get work done on Air Force One. I'm guessing the president was working on healthcare, financial reform, etc. while he was on the flight. Of course, I could be wrong. Before you ask, I don't have inside contacts. Also, to be clear, if the president didn't go to Denmark, I would not be upset. My point in this discussion is that it's not a big deal either way, and it's not indicative of his priorities being out of whack.
If the people on this vine truly want to talk politics, there are bigger fish to fry than Obama's trip to Denmark. Personally, I'd rather debate healthcare, unemployment, financial reforms, education policy...anything of substance, really.

This country needs jobs to pull out of the mess we are in now....and so far...our elecyed have helped out only wall styreet....and no jobs have come from it....just huge bonus money for CEO's. It seems our government does not understand people can not spend this country out of a recession when not enough jobs are there to help out. Along with that....the weekly pay for some of the ones lucky enough to still have a job are dropping...so just where does the government think this spending money is coming from...?

The country is tanking and the biggest thing on Obama’s to do list is 2016, what the hell is going on with him? 206 kids have died from 01/20/09 and he cannot do his job and give McChrystal the troops he needs so McChrystal can do his job. What is the problem does more have to die before Obama makes this mind up. It all ties in he's done nothing to slow down unemployment, he's done nothing to stop the out control spending, and he’s done nothing to stop the destruction of health care as we know it today. He refuses to pull back $787 billion give away program, he’s done nothing to make our lives easier what is it going to take to get him to stay in the White House do his job. Now Chrysler about to go under just shows you give the union control they will run it into the ground none of you say it’s not the union because it is they have a dog in this race knowing the unions they have tied Fiat hands with union BS this will make a company loose money playing union games. Why would you ok a sale to another car manufacturing company that already has financial problems who said ok too that one Oh it was Obama Good job! Keep up what you’re doing you are about to bring this country too its knees.

.

Demand made in America or we are doomed!!! Stop buying imported...No excuses traders!!!

Mr. Obama... Please listen to reasoning. The economy will not have a sustained improvement until there are jobs for the American workers. The first priority on your agenda should be JOBS. Here is the best way... it is the fast track way. It is a permanent solution to our ailing economy.

1) Immediately start drilling for oil in all large deposits in US territory. That includes ANWAR, off the coasts, NW mainland US where the largest oil deposit in the world lies untapped. This will lower the cost of energy causing an immediate cost reduction in all areas of the economy.

2) Immediately start building Nuclear power plants all across the US. We are going to need them when we finally have the technology to convert to electric transportation.

3) Drop the corporate tax to 15% and guarantee it will not be raised for 20 years. This will bring back America factories and production facilities.

4) Institute the fair tax ( a national sales tax, that replaces income tax)

5) No longer pay farmers not to produce food, instead subsidize farmers if necessary to produce more food. This will not only rejuvenate our domestic farm production, but will give us another vital export.

6) Create a positive atmosphere of manufacturing in this country. We need our own base factories such as steal mills, instead of importing most of our steal.

7) Immediately stop all Socialist Policies such as National Health Care, Cap and Trade, taking over the banking industry, taking over the auto manufacturing industry, taking over the housing market, taking over the insurance industry. All these Socialistic policies slow our economy and drive us closer to becoming a 2nd world country.

8) Make government smaller instead of larger. Restore the American spirit of self reliance.

9) Enforce our immigration laws and send the illegal aliens home. The key word is illegal. I am all for immigration, but it must be done in an organized manner. We cannot and should not just open our borders.

If Obama and congress would institute these things today... in a short time we would not only be out of a recession, there would be no national debt and our economy would be thriving.

Something new please:

First off, lets get some things out of the way: I understand that Obama does not write legislation. I understand that Congress follows his agenda, like Congress has never followed a president's agenda before. I also understand that until he actually signs legislation, it legally does not exist. The assumption is he will sign them, and perhaps that's not a fair assumption. The alternative is, he veto's them and we start all over? I don't see him letting that happen, not on his "signature issues".

So, how is he still spending? Well, off the top of my head $400k to Qaddaffi's foundation, $1.5 billion to Pakistan, and that's just in the past few days. Chump change, absolutely.

However, refering back to my first statements in this post, the people of this country, workers and businesses, KNOW that he wants these two big items, health care and Cap & Tax and that both are going to cost them money - the only variable is how much. And they're afraid. They're squeezing pennies till Lincoln squeals already, and are (finally, after two decades of NOT) looking ahead and saying, if I have to pay $200 a month more for health insurance, and $100 more a month for electricity next year..... I can't afford to spend money right now. Nevermind they're afraid they might be next on the enemployment line.

While they haven't spent anything on those things YET, they are hunkering down in preparation for having to afford them. Those two items alone are having a negative effect on the economy, and they don't even exist yet, but they may as well. I was looking for the specific article I read in the Wall Street Journal a couple months ago that said exactly that, but got tired of looking and so I offer this to you instead, which is specifically about Cap & Trade:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124588837560750781.html

As to McCain/Palin.... bah. I have a t-shirt with a graphic of Cthulhu, in the classic Nixon double peace sign pose with the American flag in the background, that says "Vote Cthulu 2008: Why vote for the lesser evil?" If you're not familiar with Cthulu, here's a link for that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cthulhu

How is the auto bailout a failure? Well, lets see. They won't be paying us, the taxpayer, back. The bankruptcy process threw senior bond holders under the bus in favor of the UAW. They're still open, sort of, but for how long? And GM just ditched Saturn, curiously the non-union brand... When they actually close, which I believe is inevitable, it will a complete failure, until then it's ... how bout misfeasance?

What do I think he should have done? I know you didn't ask, but I'll tell you anyway.

Immediately push to reinstate Glass-Steagal.

Immediately push to renegotiate NAFTA & GATT.

Immediately push for an amnesty bill for illegal aliens, to give them six months to become legal and on the tax rolls. After that, round 'em up and kick em out.

Immediately push for ACTUAL, not lip service, but actual stringent and enforced restrictions on pay and bonus packages for firms that accepted TARP or TALF money.

Address his "signature issues" with the American people by saying, we need to get people back to work first. We need to get regulations in place that prevent this type of theft from happening again. We need to get the expense on our nation, local and national, of illegal immigrants under control. And we need to get YOUR money back from Wall Street. THEN, address health care and whatever else.

One of the first things he did, is have Cap & Trade pushed through. What does this tell the American people? That his agenda and ideologies are more important than their jobs.

The Healthcare Plan ought just about finish this country off........another win for Obama and Pelousi. She is pushing a bill to tax the income on your 401K to support the poor and illegal in this country. The Liberals don't want anyone to be able to afford to retire except themselves or have healthcare worth half they'll have to pay but then they pay nothing at all for their superior healthcare.

maint- try looking at the labels if it doesn't show it's made somewhere else they printed the nifty little phrase "distributed by.......in the USA"

So they finally admitted that unemployment is really 17% but I figure even that is wrong and low. But according to Obama 'we are back from the brink of disaster" -more lies!

John in Orlando,

The next thing your Boss shows you is a pink slip! lmao.

Obama is a clown, he will go done as the worst President ever!

PragmaticToAFault
"I understand that Congress follows his agenda, like Congress has never followed a president's agenda before."
Personally, I would give that award to Bush. But you're entitled to your opinion.
---------------------
Your squeezing pennies comment, with respect to Cap and Trade, is not supported by the WSJ article you quoted. The article concedes that the significant effects of Cap and Trade won't happen till 2020. If you think American families (A) know the particulars of Cap and Trade, and (B) think ten years ahead, then you need a reality check. These are the same Americans that voted for the man you're lambasting, right? Do these people know what they're doing or not. To follow your argument, it would seem that they do when they're budgeting, but not when they're voting. Is that right?
-------------------------------------------
So you didn't like McCain either. Super. I hope then that you'd be tearing him a new one now as well. We'll never know. Regardless, if you had plenary power to select the President last November, who would you have chosen?
---------------------------------------
You're predicting the future with regards to the Auto Bailout. Again, I didn't support it, but I can't see the future to know how it will turn out.
---------------------------------------

Immediately push to reinstate Glass-Steagal.

Agreed.

----------------------

Immediately push to renegotiate NAFTA & GATT.

Agreed.

----------------------------------

Immediately push for an amnesty bill for illegal aliens, to give them six months to become legal and on the tax rolls. After that, round 'em up and kick em out.

Agreed.

-------------------------------------

Immediately push for ACTUAL, not lip service, but actual stringent and enforced restrictions on pay and bonus packages for firms that accepted TARP or TALF money.

Agreed.

----------------------------------------

Address his "signature issues" with the American people by saying, we need to get people back to work first. We need to get regulations in place that prevent this type of theft from happening again. We need to get the expense on our nation, local and national, of illegal immigrants under control. And we need to get YOUR money back from Wall Street. THEN, address health care and whatever else.

Agreed other than the idea that it all HAS to happen before healthcare. I don't really care about the order. However, I think the top priority in healthcare is reducing costs, not insuring the uninsured. Of course, I also think there is a connection between the two. I bring this up only because, IMO, the administration has been pitching heallthcare reform from the wrong angle.

----------------------------------------

One of the first things he did, is have Cap & Trade pushed through. What does this tell the American people? That his agenda and ideologies are more important than their jobs.

Cap & Trade already happened? When? I thought it was still pending in the Senate.

Dennis - I like your ideas!!

It's not Bush's fault, it's all. Republican/Democrat they are all at fault. They got us into this mess and it goes back more than 8 years ago. It amazes me how each like to point fingers at the other. Don't be so closed minded, look at the over all picture.

I thought that obama said that if they passed the stimulus plan, unemployment would not rise as high as it is. The stimulus plan was a flop.l obama has done nothing for the economy or for the hard working middle class. It has all gotten worse. Maybe that is what he wants.

Something new please:

Cap & Trade has passed the House, in either May or June. It hasn't passed the Senate, and it's questionable that they have the votes. And I think you sell the American people short on what they understand and what they don't. They might not understand the underpinnings of what Cap & Trade does (carbon credits, tonnage requirements, cast swaps, etc) but what they DO understand is that it will cost them more. Not just in their electric bill, but in every single the purchase they make as those costs go through the system and end up on them. There have been aritcles about it in my bassackwards local paper, it's not obscure as you think.

There was a letter released, that ran in my stupid local paper (circulation 400k) from some government office or another that estimated the cost of Cap & Trade at $1,750 per family of four. Now, I will willingly agree that that probably isn't accurate either, because it's significantly higher than the WSJ article. But it's MORE, and it's unknown how much.

People are paying attention now, like they haven't for a very long time.

As I said in my post, no, they haven't been paying attention to their finances for at least a decade and probably closer to 20 years. And no, they weren't paying attention when they voted. By the way, Obama won 52% of the popular vote, not exactly a landslide. But given that his approval rating is somewhere between 46 and 50% depending on which poll you read, he hasn't even hung onto that margin, much less converted anyone.

RE: the auto industry, let me see if I can link this:

http://blogs.moneycentral.msn.com/topstocks/archive/2009/10/02/chrysler-may-not-make-it-another-year.aspx

Read the link, that's really all that's necessary because it says it right there. The article itself reconfirms what we were told several weeks ago, that we probably would not see any of the money used to keep GM and Chrysler alive.

The penny squeezing was in reference to the unemployed, underemployed, and millions of other Americans who are .... squeezing pennies right now to keep their homes, feed and clothe their kids, etc. Their income has gone down, even if they're still employed, relative to many key prices. Some of the price pressure has lifted, as sticky grocery prices fall back from their highs that reflected the gas prices from last summer. But home energy has gone up, local, state and school taxes have gone up, local fees have gone up, etc. And if they had wealth in the stockmarket, it's been pillaged. I know the WSJ article didn't address that, sorry if that was confusing, it was meant to be a Cap & Trade overview - nothing else.

With my plenary power, if I could have chosen anyone? Rudy Guiliani, hands down. I would even have voted for McCain, if that doofus had had the good sense to choose Rudy for a running mate. Instead, we may (hopefully) get him for governor here in NY next year. Yes, all extremities are crossed - fingers, toes, legs, arms.

without jobs in America, America will never move Forward.....

I'm a bit confused.

"As the economy slowly turns around...." and "...244,+++ more jobs lost...."

Sounds like MSNBC sucking up to BO again. I think. Anybody care to explain the relationship between the reporter's writings?

PragmaticToAFault

What we have here is a failure to communicate. I think we'd actually agree more than we'd disagree if we participated in the same conversation. You said:

"They might not understand the underpinnings of what Cap & Trade does (carbon credits, tonnage requirements, cast swaps, etc) but what they DO understand is that it will cost them more."

To me, that's a contradiction in terms. If they don't understand the underpinnings, how can they understand the cost? I'll tell you how, somebody has to tell them. So you have the WSJ yelling one number, MSNBC yelling another, Fox yelling a third, and so forth. The end result? Whoever yells the loudest wins. And that, my friend, pretty much sums up our political landscape these days. Back to my point, most of the people who talk about what Cap & Trade will or won't cost, what benefits it will or won't have...they have no idea what they're talking about. One side mentions a few details and then yells BIG GOVERNMENT, MORE TAXES! Then the other side turns around a yells THE ENVIRONMENT, EVIL CORPORATIONS! Each side's base responds predictably, and off we go with the dumbest discussions you can think of. Most citizens do not make informed decisions. I read an article regarding polling on the public option. The article tried to explain the discrepancy between the Rassmussen poll and the CBS poll. Basically, CBS referred to a government "option" and mentioned "choice" while the Rassmussen poll talked about the government forming a "corporation." So "corporation" scared some while "choice" sounded nice. Now you tell me, if a little semantic game can skew a poll several points, on a subject that has been all over the news lately, how good do you think those same people will be in selecting leadership?

As to your statement about people paying attention to their finances, that's now what I was talking about. What I meant was that the current Cap & Trade legislation is designed to really kick in about 2020. So the effect will be mild for a few years (less than $200 a year by some estimates), then really kick in around 2020. This was done to appease the progressives (who wanted sever reductions in CO2 output) and the Blue Dogs (who wanted mild sticker shock). My point is that, most people don't think of what their finances will be like 10 years down the road. I may, you may, our friends and family may, but most people don't. You want proof? Look at how many people, of all income brackets, got in way over their heads with their mortgages. You have a point when you say people have started to pay attention, but there's always a gap in time between when your eyes open upon waking up, and when you actually figure out where you are and what's going on - especially when you're hung over. Such is the case now, and my belief is that America is still not fully awake.

Of all the Repubs, I also think Guiliani would have been the best. This is particularly true when it comes to cleaning up Wall St.

Those that broke the laws, abused the system got bailed out. We, the innocent suffer the consequences. It's not fair, it's not right, and yet, our government continues to support those who are to blame for the entire collapse. Even our Congressmen are involved in the failure to follow the rules. Murtha, Frank, Geithner (?), who else? And we get no help. We get no support. We get BS about how things are getting better as the jobs continue to disappear.

The media is upset because of the rumors and stories of revolution. Well, what do you expect? The government , I think, doesn't even know what's going on. They're so involved in trying to make a name for themselves that they aren't listening to who beought them to the dance. Ego and greed. That's all they know.

Vote 'em out and there is a hundred of them waiting in line to take over. Something must happen that will get their attention, snap them out of their dream world and do something tat will actually rejuvenate this economy. Unfortunately, those who make and uphold the laws are the guilty party and consider themselves above the law.

I try to come up with an idea that might work to turn this around, but I keep coming up empty. I won't, however, shrug my shoulders and say "oh, well" because I'm sure there is a solution.

Dennis, you sound like a conservative.

What a stupid article. A lot of companies are "recovering" because they CUT jobs to reduce payrolls which will temporarily improve the bottom line.

I think someone forgot to tell MSNBC that if more jobs are bing lost that created, it is not a recovery and that the stockmarket has little to do with the economy.

Hey Jolly...if Factory orders are down.....companys may only be breaking even with the job cuts....have you heard of capital to run a business....the cost of capital....just like credit lines are alot higher than the rate you pay for a mtg.   Small business's are just staying afloat and alot are using the job share program which my employer used in slow times....Run a small business and you just might understand the economics of business....Not just the crap you learn in Econ 101 taught by teacher's without an idea of what its like to run a business. Experience is so valuable...listen and learn from people who actually have done and know. Wisdom and the ability to know it...can be the key to success.

Hey Jolly...if Factory orders are down.....companys may only be breaking even with the job cuts....have you heard of capital to run a business....the cost of capital....just like credit lines are alot higher than the rate you pay for a mtg.   Small business's are just staying afloat and alot are using the job share program which my employer used in slow times....Run a small business and you just might understand the economics of business....Not just the crap you learn in Econ 101 taught by teacher's without an idea of what its like to run a business. Experience is so valuable...listen and learn from people who actually have done and know. Wisdom and the ability to know it...can be the key to success.

Hey Jolly...if Factory orders are down.....companys may only be breaking even with the job cuts....have you heard of capital to run a business....the cost of capital....just like credit lines are alot higher than the rate you pay for a mtg.   Small business's are just staying afloat and alot are using the job share program which my employer used in slow times....Run a small business and you just might understand the economics of business....Not just the crap you learn in Econ 101 taught by teacher's without an idea of what its like to run a business. Experience is so valuable...listen and learn from people who actually have done and know. Wisdom and the ability to know it...can be the key to success.

Yes indeed, right out of the Ol'FDR playbook. Why pump any money into the private sector when that's what you want control of? Seen any of that infrastrucure money go to repair or replace any major items like damns, nuke plants, electrical grids, any new hospitals built, research centers, major improvements on interstate hiways, railway improvement, his speed transportation......well why the hell not?

These people are trying to make as many people dependent upon the government as possible and they are not going to get out of the way unless they are literally thrown out of office and it better be soon. This country needs to get back to work and lead the world again.

Until they bring the factories back and they impose steep tariffs on foreign products, there will be no recovery..so dont delay, force the US companies to open up productivity here, I could care a less about China, if the multinational companies refuse to produce here, then allow open competition and I am sure some real Americans will start up real production lines that make American jobs..for goods produced here and sold here..Im totally against internationalism..AMERICA FIRST...remember write your congressmen, high tariffs on all goods produced overseas and tax the living daylights out of foreign goods, we need the jobs and they can be 10 dollar an hour jobs too. Anybody gettting 50 dollars an hour needs to be audited by the IRS and relieved of all that profit/unjust enrichment..and oh yeah, declare the deficit and national debt as unjust enrichment and say it was all illegal..stolen money purloined by unlawful acts of congress in direct violation of the US Constitution. It was robbery...and George Bush was really a closet liberal. Really.

I wish so many of you people on here knew how stupid you sounded. The Republicans will fix this, the Democrats will fix this, Obama is the reason everything is like this, Bush is the reason everything is like this, it's the dems fault, it's the republicans fault....blah, blah, blah..bottom line is this...both parties in this country suck...period ! They no longer have "The Peoples" best interest, it is now about taking care of lobbyist, lining their pockets and personal agendas. Remember when good ole Ross Perot made the comment about that sucking sound being all our jobs heading to Mexico when Clinton signed NAFTA...who's laughing at him now ? ANYONE who works or has worked in the manufactoring industry seen this coming YEARS ago, now everyone sits around acting shocked. I watched ever industry in my county leave the country or close down. Wake up America..it's time to take our country back before it is to late...maybe it already is to late...??? It's time for FAIR trade, not Free Trade !! It's time that limits were imposed on elected officials, Congress should have to live with the same things we do, same healthcare, retirement, wages...what the heck has happened to this country ? We fight over 2 political parties that really give a sh*t less about any of us, neither one is going to make a change. They will make all their election promises and lies, but after they are elected, the only thing they will make is excuses.

What recvovery?? the real numbers are more like 18% unemployed they changed the numbers in the late 80's. This economy is being destroyed by design

If you are not pissed off yet you are not paying attention and you can blame it on two groups, Democrats and Republicans. We are made up of winners and losers and the winners are democrats and republicans

Something new please - apparently I'm going to have to spoon feed you. Why is the stimulus a failure? We've spent 25% of the $787 Billion stimulus package, correct? That means that he has allocated roughly $197 Billion to projects of his choosing. Now, carefully read the title of this article. According to Obama and Biden, unemployment was not going to go over 8% if the stimulus passed. It is now at 9.8%. If you set a goal and do not obtain that goal, it is a failure.

Now for the auto industry bailout. Obama stated that when he gave GM and Chrysler $17.4 Billion, it would help them avoid bankruptcy. How did that turn out? Oh yeah, they filed for bankruptcy earlier this year. This is a failure whether or not you want to admit it. He continues to funnel money into that black hole to the tune of $60 Billion so far. GM and Chrysler do not have to pay back their old creditors and bondholders to the tune of $28 Billion now that they've files. Where is THEIR stimulus money?

To quote your post "The Olympic bid? Are you kidding me? Seriously? It wasn't his bid. It wasn't his project. He made a one-day trip to try and help America out and visited McChrystal on the way. You're obviously grasping at straws at this point." Whose project was it? Over the last two days the DJIA fell over 200 points and the U.S. reported job losses of 263,000. I would say that he had bigger fish to fry than to fly Air Force One to Denmark to try to get an olympic bid. Just wondering, did he get that bid? Oh yeah, no, he didn't. He failed - just like I said in my previous post.

As for Iraq and Afghanistan, the direct quote from Obama was that he would "remove one to two combat brigades each month, and have all of our combat brigades out of Iraq within 16 months." And that has not happened. He is now accelerating the withdrawl - which is good, but still not on the timetable that he claimed when he was campaigning. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/telegraph-view/6216245/President-Barack-Obamas-confusion-over-Afghanistan.html When I refer to his withdrawl from Afghanistan, I was referring to the fact that he was no longer willing to commit troops - see the above article. I should give his exit strategy from Iraq and Afghanistan more time, and give Obama the benefit of the doubt because he did meet with the General in charge in Afghanistan today.

And finally to quote your post again - "Yeah, you really know how to make a good argument. I feel stumped and generally defeated. What was I thinking?" - Finally something we agree on!

Hey liberals - what about double digit unemployment is good? You can thank your worshipful master for being an anti-capatalist for the downturn in the employment market. How's that change and HOPE working for you now? How many other lies are you going to believe before you realize Obama is leading us directly to the abyss?

RECOVERY??????? The mainstream media is calling this a recovery? WTF is wrong with them? Wait! I know... they are Obama supporters and have to use words with no meaning to try to build up their master.

So funny that Obama fell flat on his face today along with the mainstream media wiping mud off theirs. What a joke this administration is.

Meanwhile back at the farm... the Obama worshippers still hold fast to the hope and change that was promised. Seems there's a lot of change... but none of it leading to any hope.

The new Forbes 400: Provocative wealth amidst social misery

By Tom Eley
3 October 2009

The 400 richest Americans have so far weathered the second year of the deepest economic crisis since the Great Depression with a combined $1.27 trillion, according to Forbes magazine’s annual list.

The total net worth of the wealthiest 400 Americans actually declined by $300 billion in 2009, down from $1.57 trillion a year earlier.

This is hardly a tale of woe. The average net worth of the 400 richest Americans was $3.17 billion, and it took nearly a billion dollars, $950 million, in order to make the Forbes list.

The decline in the fortunes of the super-rich did not result from a redistribution of wealth. On the contrary, a spate of recent statistics demonstrates an impoverishment of workers and the middle class, alongside heightening income and wealth polarization.

Instead, the fall-off in the billionaires’ fortunes resulted largely from the souring and collapse of certain speculative financial ventures and the stock market.

This is what makes the fortunes of the richest Americans in 2009 so provocative—it is precisely their reckless gambling and insatiable greed that caused the economic crisis now subjecting masses in the US to a level of social misery not experienced in generations.

The obscene wealth of a tiny handful is proof of a dramatic misallocation of resources.

The combined wealth of the Forbes 400, $1.27 trillion, is greater by $483 billion than the entire “stimulus package,” the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act.

The combined fortune of the richest 400 Americans, who comprise just .00013 percent of the population, is greater by about 50 percent than the price of the health care “overhaul” promoted by the Obama administration, which, in the name of “controlling costs,” will carry out substantial cuts in Medicare, ration treatment to the sick and aged, and force families to purchase private insurance.

The fabulous wealth that the US financial and corporate elite continue to enjoy in the midst of a financial crisis of its own making is the outcome of long historical processes.

When Forbes first published its compilation of richest Americans in 1982, the wealthiest individual listed was shipping magnate Daniel Ludwig. Ludwig’s estimated fortune of $2 billion would place him far down the list today.

The list of 1982 included names such as Ford, Du Pont, Whitney, Duke, and Harriman, to name a few. These empires were associated with the expansion of US industrial production.

It is notable that on today’s list there are few whose fortunes were built up through the production of industrial goods, except indirectly through inheritance.

Two categories, “finance” and “investments,” provided the fortunes of 106 of the wealthiest Americans. Other major sources of wealth that Forbes identified include media, real estate, oil and retail.

Something new please:

Your point is very well taken re: the average persons understanding of Cap & Tax being completely clouded by the dichotomy of the message from either side and the media themselves either lack of understanding, or posess the willingness to twist the information to make it look as good/bad as possible. But I would argue two things:

1. The Obama administration has been, once again, unwilling to provide anything by way of clarity to the people of this country, including business, on that dichotomy of message.

2. He has made extreme efforts to clarify his health care agenda, and the people aren't buying it. Support for the plan goes lower and lower. It's like a case of, me thinks thou dost protest too much. He can say the same things over and over, and that doesn't make them true or believeable.

Honestly, I don't blame him for not trying with Cap & Tax, for that reason and because it doesn't look like it can pass.

But then he should publicly table it, because people and businesses are afraid of it. It might be a good idea, and when we have at least some of these millions of people back to work and our GDP growth is healthy again, AND we manage to dodge hyperinflation - then we'll come back to it.

Let me go back to my original assertion though, that Cap & Tax & healthcare are actually preventing any small amount of hiring - especially small business - that might be going on by linking you to a discussion I saw last night on the Kudlow Report.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=1283208373&play=1

It certainly isn't the only reason, but it IS a factor. The whole clip is good but at about 9:00 is a particularily salient comment, saying basically "you simply cannot beat up on the private sector the way the Obama administration is inclined (and expect a recovery)".

I think that says it all. The anti-business sentiment coming from this administration is palpable, in the face of people loosing their jobs. And yet, the American people see this administration pumping billions into the financial industry - one of the main players in this whole meltdown. They see bad behavior being continuously rewarded, the losses socialized and profits privatized, and they're pissed off.

I'm curious who you would elect, given the same plenary power.

Guiliani would be my choice, not because he's a Republican, but because I lived and worked in NYC for all but one year of his administration. He quite literally turned the city around and stopped the exodus from Manhattan into the suburbs of key businesses with financial incentives. He's blunt, he's sometimes rude, and he has the experience to know that priorities must be set and lived with.

Just as an aside, this has been a very interesting discussion, and it's extremely refreshing to have one such as this where actual ideas are shared and no mud slung. Thanks.

It looks like the damage dopne by the Bush administration was far worse than even Obama thought.

The news article says, "...despite the recovery..." What recovery?

What a bunch of transparent spin that attempts to prop up Obama's failed economic policies. Let's face facts: The head of the Executive Branch of the national government took that post with no executive experience whatsoever. He's a babe lost in the woods!

Life cycle of two $1 bills.

The government recently printed off two brand new $1 bills and sent them to a bank to be used to make things work better in America.

While they were doing their job of facilitating the economy, an interesting thing happened – One of the bills ended up in the hands of the government that issued it, because of taxes. The other bill ended up in a private citizen's bank savings account.

The bank took the $1 bill in the savings account and “created” $10 of credit with it (it's called a reserve ratio), and lent the $10 to a business who hired employees to make products and services that people wanted to buy. In the process, the business made a profit of $2, one of which the government took in taxes, and the other which the business put in the bank, which again “created” another $10 of credit – which was used to make more loans, etc.

So what happened to the other $1 bill that the government took?

The government gave it to a welfare recipient in “need”, so they could stay home and watch Oprah instead of going to work. That welfare recipient spent the money on food and drugs in the community, where it got so tired of being passed around that it finally wore out and was shredded by the government, who then issued a crisp new $1 bill, which they proceeded to give back to the welfare recipient for more food and drugs.

And what happened to the $1 that ended up in someone's savings account? Well, the saver was criticized by the government for being “greedy” and living well, while others were in “need”, so the government started making proposals to “redistribute the wealth” of the saver, so that other people would benefit more equally in the “American Dream”. When last seen, the $1 bill was trying to find a place to hide from the government's “revenue collector”, and was running scared, so the saver took his dollar and sent it to another country, where that country's bank used it to “create” $10 for use in that country's economy, and the saver's home country bank had to cut back on lending, and the business had to lay people off because he couldn't get a loan to keep making things.

The morale of the story? I'll let you figure it out, but ask yourself – Do I want the government taking more of my money, or less?

Let's review Obama's score card so far……

1. Obama's handling of the economy and billion dollar bailouts is a total failure.

2. Obama's plan to reduce unemployment is a total failure.

3. Obama's Stimulus Plan is a total failure.

4. Obama's Health Care Reform is a total failure.

5. Obama's attempt to close Gitmo is a total failure.

6. Obama's strategy in Afghanistan is a total failure.

7. Obama's kowtowing to Arab and Communist Nations is a total failure.

8. Obama's attempt to control North Korea, Iran and Russia is a total failure.

9. Obama's mind-boggling deficit spending is a total failure.

10. Obama's attempt to get foreign countries to like us more is a total failure.

11. Obama's appointment of tax cheat/corrupt/socialist/incompetent cabinet members/czars is a total failure.

12. NOW THE CHICAGO OLMPICS HAS TURNED OUT TO BE A TOTAL FAILURE (LAST PLACE IN THE VOTING…..PLEASE!!! I THOUGHT CHICAGO WAS THE FRONT RUNNER).

There are so many other failures, but time does not permit me to keep going. Obama's presidency reminds me of the joke about the guy who fell off of the roof of the Empire State Building. As he passed the window on the 20th floor of the building, the man was heard to say..."Well, so far so good..." Some may laugh out loud about Obama's failed Presidency, but really there is nothing funny about failing. It's embarrassing. It's also very bad for America and our future.

Do you think that the government in general knows that its own weight on the backs of their citizens is the problem?

Forget about NAFTA and GATT for a moment. America was number 1 (or close to it) in everything at one time. Education, Wages, Quality of Products and Life.

Either the government thinks you are too stupid to figure out your own problems or they want to be the new Czars.

Thanks again, Bush Recession of 2007.

Here's a laugher for ya....I just read that Obama thinks the reason jobs aren't being created is because the health care bill isn't being passed!!!

Is this guy for real? What do they smoke these days in the White House?

If this is the info he's getting, he needs to quit listening to his "advisers" and turn on the TV or read the news or his Blackberry. What they're telling him is wrong. "THEY LIE!!!"

Anyone who believes Obama that we are on the road to recovery may as well stick their head in the ground and say hello to the ostrich. Obama keeps spending money that he doesn't have. For instance he is having Geithner, now there is a genius, to sell bonds which is like taking out a loan, and having a third party buy these bonds then Geithner is printing money and buying the bonds back. This will catch up to us soon. I suggest you try to pay off as many bills as you can, don't buy unless you have cash, and tell your children how sorry you are for taking away their future.

This whole problem can be summed up in one simple sentence: A growing lack of faith in Congress and the Obama Administration/Czars. This is the real reason bossiness are not hiring. They know that we have not been dragged to the bottom by Congress and Obama as yet and can see that the "SPEND! SPEND! & SPEND SOME MORE! policy is not and will not work. Obama wanted transparency well we can see right through him.

We are living in what is being called a Post-Industrial Society. What does that mean? Basically, we stopped making things. Basically, we now have two types of jobs:

1. Jobs Processing or Creating Information: Requires creative thinking; Offers good pay with benefits; Open and flexible organization; Eliminates routine jobs to cut costs.

2. Routine Service Oriented Jobs: Authoritive; Coventional; Specialized; Low pay, few benefits, Picks up eliminated routine jobs.

Large corporations are running small business out of business. Many of our large corporations are running their show over water, keeping offices in one country with factories in another, claiming the best of all worlds, aren't paying their appropriate share of taxes, don't want to pay for health benefits, don't address human issues, don't address pollution issues. They take resources from one country, ship them to another, make the product there then, ship them back to sell. (Ghandi fought this very issue in reverse decades ago.) They do not think outside of the box. And who profits? Enter player number three... market speculators, makes no product, pays few, if any, taxes, the ultimate money makes money scenario.

Then there is the highly specialized Health Care Industry, which actually does offer a product (albeit, an expensive one with highly technical tools and necessary accomodations). What about the Insurance Industry who profits from it? Is the Insurance Industry a necessary evil? If so, what would be the best way to organize it? Not through government, I assure you; once you create a bureaucracy, they perpetuate themselves by periodically redefining their goals.

PragmaticToAFault

1. The Obama administration has been, once again, unwilling to provide anything by way of clarity to the people of this country, including business, on that dichotomy of message.

I wouldn't say "unwilling", only because healthcare has dominated the debate recently and that's where the White House's message has focused. But I agree with you that there hasn't been much clarity offered in terms of how Cap & Trade will work and what its effects will be. Congress/Obama should have waited for healthcare to get done (one way or another) before moving forward with Cap & Trade.

----------------------

2. He has made extreme efforts to clarify his health care agenda, and the people aren't buying it. Support for the plan goes lower and lower. It's like a case of, me thinks thou dost protest too much. He can say the same things over and over, and that doesn't make them true or believable.

I think you and I disagree on whether the "people are buying it." The plan Obama set forth in his speech (i.e., the "you lie" speech) is not what's coming out of Senate Finance. Neither do the House bills reflect Obama's plan. Regardless, anything with a public option is going to tick off many conservative, and anything without single-payer is going to tick of many liberals. Thus, Obama's plan has enemies on the extremes of both sides. He thought he'd be able to get the middle fifty, so to speak, and he has, in terms of the populace, but not in terms of the legislators. Example: Blanche Lincoln (D-Ark.) - Recent polls from Arkansas suggest 60% support for a public option, but she's voting against it. Why? God only knows.

---------------------------------------

I saw the clip and found it very interesting. I disagree with some of it's premises. Notably, the comparison with Europe regarding unemployment insurance and how it disincentivizes work. Kudlow fails to note that, in Europe, unemployment compensation is close to (if not equal to) the wages that would be earned in employment. That's not the case in America. I know a few people that currently collect unemployment and it's about 60% of what they were making - and no medical (another difference from Europe).

That being said, you raise an interesting point regarding the perception of this administration as being anti-business. You actually contradict yourself somewhat, and so I'd like to augment your statement by saying that there's a perception that this administration is anti-small business. I don't know too many people that think this administration is anti-Wall-St. Or anti-Big-Pharma. Now, unlike you, I don't think Obama's anti-small-business reputation is entirely deserved, but that's because I don't see his moves thus far as being anti-small-business. What I do see is an absence of moves that are pro-small-business. One such move would have been a single-payer system. Small employers pay much higher premiums for private insurance than their bigger brethren. But neither Obama nor Congress pushed it from that angle. As a result, my opinion stands that the administration has really done nothing to help the small business man. Hell, they could have taken some of those TARP dollars and set it aside for working capital loans for small businesses. "Banks won't lend? We will." But they didn't.

Who would I have picked as the President. In hindsight, while I don't think Obama is bringing this country down and we should all arm ourselves, I'm less than pleased with his performance thus far. I like what he's done on foreign policy, but not domestically. However, I also put a large part of the blame on the Blue Dogs. That being said, Obama would not be my first choice (knowing what I know now). Rudy would be up there. Maybe Ron Paul. Maybe Dennis Kucinich. Nobody really sticks out for me. I'd want someone with fresh ideas, even if they're a little out there. Hillary and McCain just seem like so much more of the same-old, same-old.

I've also enjoyed this chat. Thanks for the links. Very informative.

Correctio , Ghandi fought this very thing; I said in reverse, it wasn't in reverse.

Something new please " if you're going to say that Obama's "socialist" policies are killing our country, you're going to have to offer proof."

I'll take a stab at it.

I see a lot of posts complaining about “socialism” and “capitalism” which only tends to distort what the real issue is – Namely, what level of government control of the economy is best in the long run? Fortunately, there is economic research that helps answer that question.

Economists have noticed a close relationship between economic growth and the amount of government spending (as a % of Gross Domestic Product - GDP), which is represented by the Rahn Curve.

While a certain minimum level of government spending is necessary to maintain order, anything above that level creates a drag on economic growth, and it appears that the optimal level of total government spending is approximately 15%-20% of GDP. Anything above that rate of spending reduces the overall economic growth rate, which is nothing more than the realization that every extra dollar taxed and spent by the government (albeit with good intentions) is a dollar that cannot be invested productively in creating jobs and economic growth.

Basically, the Rahn Curve predicts that an optimal REAL (inflation adjusted) long term growth rate of about 4% is achieved when government spending is no more than about 20% of GDP, and the growth rate drops to 2% when government spending reaches about 40% of GDP, and drops to 0% economic growth when government spending reaches about 60% of GDP. For more details about the Rahn Curve, consider the following link;

http://www.freedomandprosperity.org/Papers/rahncurve/rahncurve.pdf

At first I questioned whether this was true, so I made painstaking actual comparisons with economies around the world, and the predictions of the Rahn Curve seem to be amazingly accurate. For example, the following are the results for the United States (limited government) and the European Union-15 (large government – France is typical) over the last 20 years. Note that these are inflation adjusted rates of economic growth, so they reflect real increases, not distorted ones.

The average 20 year government spending for the United States was about 32% of GDP (Federal, State & Local), and the average economic growth rate was 2.75%, which is consistent with the prediction of the Rahn Curve.

The average 20 year government spending of the European Union- 15 group was about 53% of GDP, and the average economic growth rate was about 0.70%, also consistent with the Rahn Curve.

While this may seem like a relatively small difference, it reflects itself in 2 very important ways.

FIRST - At a 2.75% growth rate, in one generation (20 years), the average American's income would increase from its current per capita income of $46,859 (2008) to $80,600, an increase of $33,741.

At a 0.70% growth rate, in one generation (20 years), the average French person's income would increase from its current per capita income of $33,733 (2008) to $38,783, an increase of only $5,050.

In two generations, the differences are even more striking.

At a 2.75% growth rate, in two generation (40 years), the average American's income would increase from its current per capita income of $46,859 (2008) to $138,700, an increase of $91,841.

At a 0.70% growth rate, in two generation (40 years), the average French person's income would increase from its current per capita income of $33,733 (2008) to $44,590, an increase of only $10,857.

SECOND – At a total tax rate of 32%, the average American's current after-tax income is $46,859-32% = $31,864.

At a total tax rate of 53%, the average French person's after-tax income is $33,738 – 53% = $15,857.

In other words, the average American currently makes over twice as much as the average French person (after taxes).

In 20 years, the American's AFTER-TAX income would increase to $54,808, while the French person's after tax income would only increase to $18,228, so the average American's income would be over 3 times that of a French person.

In 40 years, the American's AFTER-TAX income would increase to $94,316, while the French person's after tax income would only increase to $20,957, so the average American's income would be over 4.5 times that of a French person.

The current Administration's spending plans will increase government spending to close to 50% over the next several years. Is that what you want?

Which system do you want for YOUR children and grandchildren? Food for thought.

John,

The fact that incumbents tend to keep their seats and don't turn over might have a bit to do with it.

http://www.auburnschools.org/ahs/wbbusbin/gov_assignments/term_limits.pdf

I had something very interesting happen to me today. I rent a house. The sister of the people I rent from is running for Alderman. Without my permission, she put two of her signs in my yard leaving a note stuffed in my door telling me who she was and what she done, as if that was sufficient reason enough.

Maybe I will regret this but the signs are no longer in my yard because I have no idea who she is or what her qualifications are.

I'd like to add one more thing to this vine. I am a Republican and I am openly saying President Obama is a good man. I don't know anyone in their right mind who would want to be President right now. Having said that, President Obama is an intelligent man but he is dealing with 70 years of coroprations loaning other countries money and then exploiting their natural resources and they have done it to us as well. Our government did not do what it should have and they haven't been for years. we all know this so blaming Obama is like blaming a man who is trying to row upstream withoutr oars. Enough political bashing!

Our economy is going down at a logarithmic rate. Our economy is bankrupt. I don't know when it will happen but closings are continuing. We cannot account for the spending that has already occurred. I think it's gone into the good buddy system, myself. Our money is fiat. People are wearing blinders. People are just keeping on, as if it isn't happening.

I've NEVER heard anyone use the "saved jobs" line until this snakeoil salesman took office. The sad part is the media now uses the term as if it is a legitimate statistic instead of calling out the administration for talking to the public as if we're 5 year olds and don't realize that we're being BS'ed.

They can say anything and often do. Obama hasn't a clue.

This is the highest unemployment rate since June of 1983. Ronald Reagan had been president for two and a half years at that time, not a mere nine months. He had a Republican controlled Senate, and although the Democrats had a majority in the House, there were enough Blue Dog Democrats, he had effective control of that body as well. The main thing we need to remember is that we, as a nation, and certainly many of our business leaders acted irresponsibly and that led to this economic travesty. We need now to work together so that the economy serves the needs of all people.

You dont quite understand,HIS PERSONAL economy has vastly improved. His old lady is running around the world with Opra,shopping,eating at the best bistro's (most likely on a govt issued credit card),travelling on a private jet paid for by us,limo's and drivers paid for by us.

He is the most incompetent,@!$%# to ever serve in the White House---including the runner-up,Jimmy Carter.

Wag,

The difference is that in 1983 the unemployment rate was on the way DOWN, currently it is on the way UP. Big difference!!!

wag-889018

The difference between Ronald Reagan and Obama is like comparing day and night. Reaganomics worked, Obamanation won't. Give me one example that excessive spending ever saved America or our economy. The fact of the matter is, our government needs to shrink big time. If the climate and medical (including a public plan) bills were to pass, then the size of our government would grow at such a rate to exceed that of our medical insurance rates. Our cost of living will sky rocket causing more foreclosures and bankruptcies driving the economy back into the dark ages. Give the power back to the states rather then taking it away AND STOP THE SPENDING!

This is the highest unemployment rate since June of 1983.

Great wag. So get in your time machine and go back to 1983 and complain. Meanwhile, IN THE PRESENT, your messiah is bringing us down faster than the Titanic.

JOBS, JOBS, JOBS, JOBS, JOBS, JOBS, JOBS, JOBS, JOBS, JOBS, JOBS, JOBS

Until Washington starts taxing imports, ALL IMPORTS, our economy will continue this freefall!! This isn't rocket science, just common sense! Taxing imports will increase revenue, level the playing field for American made products and help increase consumer spending. This is a win, win, win situation for America and until America is back on top, the HELL with the rest of the world!!! Charity starts at HOME!!!

Now I read that because of the shrivalling tax base, Washington is going to impose a $50/gun tax on all gun owners, to be paid with our yearly 1040. Think maybe its time we start paying these rip-off taxes with lead!!!

ATTENTION WASHINGTON!!!! You will be held accountable for ALL your actions!!! How about taking care of America before we try to police the rest of the world!!!

LOCK & LOAD AMERICA, a storm is brewing!!

JOBS, JOBS, JOBS, JOBS, JOBS, JOBS, JOBS, JOBS, JOBS, JOBS, JOBS, JOBS

It's easy to explain, BO has saved over a million Government jobs.

The only jobs that are being saved, are Government jobs!!!

I am haveing a great deal of trouble understanding why the government (regardless of who sits in the hot seat) has to do with the amount of unemployment. Shouldn't the Executives who lay off people so that they can get thioer ponus take some of the blame. why you might ask, because the focus of those people is the immediate bottom line. I mean this week, not next week, month or year. As long as they get thiers - to he** with the rest of the country. They out source to "Maximize profits" but don't seem to realize that the people they are laying off are thier customers who would have been putting dollars into the cash registers of thier companies. But they don't care because they have gotten thier millions and if the company goes bankrupt next month they are off the hook.

Can't you fools see that. Years ago the focus of the executives (founders of the big companies) focused on doing whatever it takes to make the companie a success IN THE LONG TERM.

Mike. What is "thioer ponus." Is that latin for "Obama sucks?"

Mike W-595875

I am haveing a great deal of trouble understanding why the government (regardless of who sits in the hot seat) has to do with the amount of unemployment.

It is not so hard to understand. By the government negatively impacting our cost of living, Americans spend less money to spend on goods and services causing a cut back on our GDP, thus, causing businesses to lay-off workers to survive.

John. Yes, we have a whole new vocabulary now:

Jobs are no longer created, they are "made or saved."

Health insurance is now called "Health care."

Drugging and raping a 13 year old is "not rape-rape."

People on welfare are "less fortunate."

Government run, force mandated, health insurance is "Choice and competition."

Quadrupling the deficit is "stimulus."

and the list goes on and on....

Here. I found a whole list on 'em on a blog by Debra Saunders. This is great:

Guide to understanding Democrats' doublespeak

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Text Size: A | A | A

By Debra J. Saunders
San Francisco Chronicle Columnist
May 13, 2009 12:01 AM

Doublespeak is alive as Democrats pull the strings in the White House and Congress 24 years after 1984. What do they mean when they engage in Democrat-speak?

I know I'm not worthy, but I've got an assignment, so I shall borrow a page from Ambrose Bierce, not with a Devil's Dictionary, but a Democrats' Dictionary. The easy part: There's no dif.

» Academic freedom: Full license to espouse liberal thought to unformed minds.

» Bailout: Billions upon billions - trillions really - of government aid doled out to financial institutions to remind voters of the need for strong regulation.

» Biden, Joe: Running-at-the-mouth politician, but, hey, he was elected vice president.

» Bipartisanship: 40 Republicans and 60 Democrats.

» Bush, George W.: Big-spending, war-waging Republican.

» Cheney, Dick: Satan.

» Clean coal: What Santa Claus puts in Democrats' stockings so they don't have to admit that their global-warming agenda is anti-coal.

» Climate change: Global warming during a blizzard.

» CNN: Unbiased news network whose reporters battle "right-wing" media.

» Deficits: Overspending before 2009, or spending practices that President Obama inherited. For current usage, see: Investment.

» Extremists: Abortion opponents.

» Fox News: Unlike CNN, biased news network.

» Global warming: An apocalyptic theory that every scientist believes in - except dissenting scientists who don't count - best bemoaned from one's Gulf Stream jet en route to an international conference on the environment.

» God: What people in small towns clung to before Obama won the White House. See: guns, anti-immigrant or anti-trade beliefs.

» Health care costs: A spiraling chunk of the U.S. economy that can be reduced by providing health care to all Americans. Really.

» Homeland security: Gun control.

»Iraq: An immoral war, once the focus of numerous anti-war demonstrations, which Democratic leaders vowed to end immediately upon winning the White House - until Obama won the 2008 election.

» Liberal: The L-word, a term unfairly hurled by name-calling right-wing kooks.

» Lieberman, Joe: Former Democrat turned Independent senator from Connecticut. Sellout.

» McCain, John: Former GOP maverick who - the nerve - turned out to actually be a Republican.

» Middle class: Families that earn less than $250,000 - until Washington decides it might be a good idea to pay for all the new Obama-era programs.

» Nuance: Homeland Security Janet Napolitano's decision to refer to terrorist attacks as "man-caused disasters." Formerly known as Doublespeak.

» Obama, Barack: God, at least in Detroit.

» Oil: A crude substance used to fuel other people's cars.

»One hundred days: The first in a series of holy days during which dutiful media preside over national thanksgiving.

» Palin, Sarah: White-trashy grandmother utterly unqualified and too dim-witted to be vice president.

» Pandemic: CNN-speak for flu.

» Pelosi, Nancy: Grandmotherly House speaker who could not be expected to understand that when Bushies authorized waterboarding of high-value detainees, it actually might happen.

» Progressive: Liberal.

» Public transportation: What other people should take to work.

» Regulation: The threat of a salary cap for executives with firms receiving federal funds.

» Republican Party: The party of the rich - if the California inland empire and Central Valley are rich, and Beverly Hills, Marin County and Malibu are not.

» Sacrifice: Something Bush never asked for during time of war.

Now a tax hike for 95 percent of working families while U.S. troops fight in two wars abroad.

» Specter, Arlen: Republican turned Democratic senator from Pennsylvania. Free thinker.

» Stimulus: A rush in the nether regions at the prospect of spending trillions of dollars you don't have. Not to be confused with: Banking.

» Surge: A tactic involving troop increases that could never work in Iraq, but always made sense for Afghanistan.

» Tobacco: Toxic substance that should be overtaxed or banned - unless it is marijuana. Then see: Medicine.

» Tolerance: An essential element to civil societies; individuals deemed insufficiently tolerant must be re-educated.

» War on terror: The fairness doctrine, the only weapon that can harm America's true enemy, Rush Limbaugh.

» Waterboarding: Torture - unless a plane piloted by terrorists hits a reservoir.

John & The Colonel, I'm going to ignore your comments because they are a clear indication that your brains are right up Rush's butt.

Dude, in a way you are very right in the concept that the government can influence the cost of living by taxing. But what I have observed over the past 40 years is that the boards of directors, CEO's and upper tier management has given in to the opinions of the whiz-kids on wall street. Keep in mind that if the whiz-kids don't make transactions they don't make commissions so they will look for any reason to drive the sale of stocks. They make thier commissions regardless of whether the sale is at a profit or a loss. The whiz-kids base thier recommendations on the relationship of very short term guesstimates against real numbers. Thus, if a company executive THINKS his/her company will make 5% profit in the second quarter and if it only makes 4% the whiz-kids issue sell recomendations. Now how the heck can variation base on a 3 nonth guess really be an indicator of the value of any company. If your paycheck is $10 less than what youthought it should be this pay-period - does that make YOU any less of a person.

John & The Colonel, I'm going to ignore your comments because they are a clear indication that your brains are right up Rush's butt.

Actually, Rush Limbaugh doesn't broadcast where I live. So mine would be up Sean Hannity's butt.

Or possibly Neal Boortz' butt.

U6 unemployment figure is 17%!!!!!!!

Bureau of Labor Statistics

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t12.htm

ecib. Jeeeezzzzz! That's frightening!

Why isn't the media using these BLS stats?

Stop the blame game, it's not Bush it's not Obama: it is the Congress, that is where the real power is, a president proposes a agenda, only congress can enact it; the lobbyist's know that, that is why they shower congress with all the goodies. Congress, hold them responsible, vote a bunch out of office, the rest may get the message.

saxon, I couldn't have said it better. All these spouters of the blog b.s. don't seem to be able to think for them selves. Further they are totallly unable to perform any kind of independant analysis.

This is a good board.

Everyone "gets" it. Who's working in the Oval Office trying to turn this around?.

It's better to have fun, than to work.

Pres. Obama is the most inadequate President we have ever had. What were his campaign promises?

Now he's the one who is Transparent. Just there for the perks..

Mike, I've got your "independent analysis" right here.

If this administration, PRIOR to or even SIMULTANEOUSLY to passing trillions of dollars in bailouts and pork and cramming healthcare down an unwilling country's throat and trying to cram "climate change" legislation too, had done any of the following:

Reinstated Glass-Steagal.

Called for an immediate renegotiation of NAFTA & GATT.

Passed a six-month amnesty for illegal aliens, at which time they become legal, TAX PAYING citizens and start paying for some of the things they STEAL now.

Actually regulated the fat bonuses and paychecks of the Wall Street bunch that took TARP/TALF money, instead of just giving it lip service.

Any combination of those things would have had a positive effect on job creation and our economy, because businesses and consumers would see a government that was FOR the people, not yet ANOTHER government that was for big business. Liberals don't mind when people are rich, as long as they get rich too, right?

Instead, we have no accountablility for the TARP/TALF money and no hope of recouping more than half of it by latest indications. We have healthcare and Cap & Tax hanging over the heads of businesses and consumers. We have 12 million plus illegal aliens STILL using our schools, healthcare, public services, etc. and not paying ONE THIN DIME, meanwhile flouting our laws every day they're here. We have government owned car companies, closing the ONE profitable brand and guess what? It was the only non-union arm of the company. Coincidence? I think not.

What are people supposed to think, Mike? Yea, he inherited a mess, and he's making it worse every single day. His foriegn policy is weak and apologetic.

Had any effort been made, any effort at all, to actually do something that benefits the AMERICAN PEOPLE, we would all be more than willing to give him more than 8 months before passing judgement.

Pragmatic, well said. Very well thoughout. My references were to the people throwing out one liners and copies of the blog b.s.

what I would like to add though is that not everybody is on these forums. And further, there is a significant, proven need for health care insurance reform (I know this from personal experience).

Also, how far do you think he would have gotten in the reforms you mention. Remember, the President (dem, re or independat) is not a dictator. As someone in a prevoious post said - The President only suggests legislation, the congress actually sets it and funds it. And we all know that congress is in the pockets of big finance & business. Further, Disneyland on the Patomic is a land where back scratching (and stabbing) is the rule. If the President wants something he has to give on something else. Like, if you want health insurance reform, lay off the CEO's bonuses.

All these spouters of the blog b.s. don't seem to be able to think for them selves. Further they are totallly unable to perform any kind of independant analysis.

Mike. On dozens of these threads, I've posted stats, links, studies, bills, actual experiences, quotes, op-eds, analyses, news articles, dates, economic information, etc., etc., etc.

I've found that IT DOESN'T MATTER. Obama supporters are way way WAY too caught up in their idolatry and ideology to even consider anything that runs contrary to their belief that everything Obama does is perfect and everything he says is divine truth. So, I've given up on that. It's pointless and a waste of time to provide hard irrefutable facts from independent sources that prove your point beyond a shadow of a doubt only to be met with a "But BUSH did..." or the ol' "Rush" card that you played. Soooo, I'd rather just spend my time making fun of them since they aren't interested in facts what-so-ever.

What's the point? You're not interested in facts. Only praising Pappy-O.

By the way. Just heard on ABC news that your savior LOST his bid for the Olympics. So that was more tax-payer money down the drain.

Gee. Maybe now he'll have "time" to find out what's happening in Afghanistan.

Can't believe somebody would compare Reagan to Obama. Yes, they both give moving speeches, the difference is one had substance and kept inspiring, the other gives speeches with nothing to back it up. Empty words.

Technically the deficit number rose under Reagan, but what I remember about his presidency is he accomplishing 8 out of the 10 economic points for a healthy economic recovery following a Carter/progressive congress:

Under Reagan - unemployment: down/ interest rates:down/ GDP:up/ the value of the dollar was again strengthened, consumer confidence: up/ Iran hostages released, the wall came down. He froze spending. Yes, he invested heavily on military and national defense. But as a result, it ended the cold war - because he put on a strong front, enemies would be discouraged to engage. That's the cost of a good defense. By the time he left office, people were feeling pretty good and the economy was on a strong rebound. So pleeeeeease, not even close to the current admin. They(Obama/Congress) are making the same mistakes as Carter.

Mike, if his agenda going into office had included those things - Glass-Steagal, NAFTA/GATT, immigration, wrangling our money back from Wall Street - THOSE things would have been pursued with the same alacrity that all these other things have been pursued.

The House had the Cap & Tax bill written, voted on and approved by May! Nevemind that it is a very, very bad idea to try to do something this expensive during a massive recession, that has not worked particularily well in countries that have already done it. That was his agenda, and by God, Congress got 'er done. Thankfully, the Senate does not seem to have the votes to pass it, but it's still hanging over everyone's head.

Congress has done precious little else for the last 5 months besides waste their time and ours on health care "reform" that costs people MORE money. The Baucus bill is a gift to the insurance companies in the form of a blank check payable from your and my paycheck. And for all the "urgency"? It doesn't actually benefit anyone for over three years, yet they begin taking our money immediately. Actual health care delivery costs and issues are not addressed, and they won't touch tort reform with a 10 foot pole because of the trial lawyers payoffs. Yes, that's Congress, but they're following the President's agenda. We need reform that's not a big payoff for campaign contributions.

I'm aware of the give and take, pay for play. He also got himself elected based on CHANGE. Things would be done differently, no earmarks, transparency, sunlight on bills before voting, no tax increase on families earning below $250k, etc etc. And nothing has changed, has it? It has, in fact, gotten worse.

Obama:

The most unworking President we've ever had. No help for the Military. Off subject. He met with McChrystal on Air Force 1 and told him to wait a few weeks. (Afghanistan)

Upon summation, everyone will have to wait a few more weeks on all issues, but the Unemployed are going to have to wait 4 more years.

Health Care, is the immediate priority. H------------with that.

Scraping pennies. Pennies now seem like a lot of money.

Pragmatic. EXACTLY! These are the things I can't seem to drill into the heads of supporters like Mike. I would have at least tried to see things the dems way if he had done any of what he promised. No earmarks, no lobbyists, cut spending, now we've got cuts in missle defense just as NK is test firing long rage missles over Japan, a quadrupled deficit, a recession that's getting worse by the day, all the while we're being threatened with higher taxes to fund ObamaCare. Basically everything he said he wouldn't do, he's doing. And everything he said he would do, he's not. That's why I've given up on trying to convince the bots on here. They're applauding all of this.

Colonel, I neither praise or denigrate the President. At the same time I place very little credence in the stats, blogs, op-eds etc. All have thier own ax to grind and they all use, either fear tactics, or denigration as thier main talking points. Remember the old saying - Figures never lie, but liers always figure.

I prefer to use my own reasoning, observations and life experiences to color my statments. Accept them or not is your right. Just as it is my right to ignore all the stats, links, studies, bills, quotes, op-eds, analyses, news articles, dates, economic information, etc., etc., etc.

As was pointed out in a conversation with friends the other night, The actual Constitution does not say anything about the separation of church & state. Rather, it specificaly prohibits the state from establishing a specific religion. My interpretaion of that is that the American citizen is free to worship or not as they want. At the same time the state must not let itself be pushed into the regulation of my worshiping. The news media and the blogers etc. have miss read that to say that the state must make no mention of a Supreme Diety. One example of the errors I percieve. The bloggers etc. will argue in both directions with numerous quotes from other bloggers, op-eds, bills and studies.

Screw health care !what people need are JOBS, that is what they should have taken on, I guess I can use the healthcare so I can go to the Hospital from all the stress I have from being unemployed!

Colonel, I neither praise or denigrate the President. At the same time I place very little credence in the stats, blogs, op-eds etc. All have thier own ax to grind and they all use, either fear tactics, or denigration as thier main talking points. Remember the old saying - Figures never lie, but liers always figure.

Which is why I've tried to rely on scientific data from independent sources and stats from government agencies when possible. Are you saying an independent scientific or government agency is biased?

Many times using your own reasoning as opposed to hard scientific data (where 1+1 always equals 2) can result is some of the most biased and lop-sided views possible.

BTW. You are exactly correct on your analysis of separation of church and state. The Constitution says that the Government shall make no law endorsing a specific religion or proposing a state religion. The first Amendment has always been terribly mis-interpreted. SEE I AGREE WITH YOU! What a shocker, huh?

Maybe a liar, or just plain stupid, one or the other.

This man is the boldest liar I have ever seen (calm down all you Bush haters). He just blatantly lies about issues and goes upon his merry way without ever being called on it.

Bill you did forget, and you should be thanking Obama for not being in a recession right now, and if you people would work with him we could recover faster, instead of whining you need to be thinking about what you will do to get yourself ahead, in your finances!!! you can complain from now on but you will still be the one that has to do it you Repubs are sounding more and more like someone that wants a hand out!!! while you claim that you are against that!!! oh please give us something Obama!!! when you whine thats what I here you saying!!!

Oh shut up, dale. People aren't buying your Liberal BS today.

dale-763548, Who's is you people????'

you should be thanking Obama for not being in a recession right now

We should be thanking him that we're in a depression instead?

Oh and Dale, you forgot to blame Bush.

Leigh14, if we begin to grow the economy mand jobs follow will you admit that you were wrong or look for something else to whine about???

Bass364340: you whiners and Obama students know who you are!!!

Richard,

Maybe a liar, or just plain stupid, one or the other.

or both!

You repubs just dont get it the election is over!!! we have a President!!! he is the only President that we have you need to work with your! President the other party lost the election, if you dont work with the President that we have who are you going to work with for the next three years!!!Duh!!!

dale,

i will.i voted for president obama.i was suckered by "hope and change" and thought the man would be a moderate liberal like he said despite his lefty voting record in the senate.president obama hasn't kept one campaign promise and all you can do is blame previous administrations.

Vol fan,

You just pulled a 'Wilson' and said what everyone reading this was THINKING..... Ha! Ha!

Dale wake up. He is intentionally killing the economy. Wait til the socialized medicine passes... many people will be out of work because of that. When Cap and Tax goes through we companies will be paying more for energy... which will cause them to shed even more jobs to keep the profit margin up. HOW IN THE HELL ARE PEOPLE WITHOUT A JOB SUPPOSED TO TAKE CARE OF THEIR FINANACES??? Almsot 20% of the American work force is out of a job and you are telling them to be responsible and take care of their finances. Why doesnt Obama be responsible and take care of the countries finances???????????????? You dont spend your way out of bankruptcy.

Reagan and Obama are remarkably similar. Both were and are said to win people over in a cult like manner, lots of great rhetoric and both depend on heavy government spending to stimulate the economy. Obama has his stimulus package and Reagan had his, the heavy spending on the military. Reagan ran up the deficit, spending more money than all of his predecessors combined. Obama seems to be doing the same thing. There is no night and day between Reagan and Obama. The only differences are political alleigances and ideologies.

You repubs just dont get it the election is over!!!

Now someone needs to tell Obama that.

-2nd post-

My god!!! So many of you are incredibly stupid!!!!!!!

How many times does it need to be said before you folks understand this??? THE REASON WHY UNEMPLOYMENT IS SO HIGH IS BECAUSE OF THE JOKE AND LIE CALLED FREE TRADE!!!!!

Blaming Bush or Obama for something that both parties support is absurd!!!! We need to elect officials that will demand that over 70% of all products & components sold in the US ARE MADE IN THE US!!!!!

When we do this, limit outsourcing/work visas (in-sourcing) to about 10%, and start supporting domestic manufacturing efforts with our dollars, we'll see unemployment rates sink like a stone.

This can also be replicated in other countries, which will help their unemployment rates as well. It's time for a return to prosperity.

"This is the issue: whether we believe in our capacity for self-government or whether we abandon the American Revolution and confess that a little intellectual elite in a far distant capital can plan our lives for us better than we can plan them for ourselves."

Ronald Reagan

he is the only President that we have you need to work with your! President the other party lost the election, if you dont work with the President that we have who are you going to work with for the next three years

Tell you what dale. When Obama decides to start listening to and working with the American people maybe I'd be willing to do that. But his agenda is ALL that matters to him. He won't listen on health insurance, he won't listen on spending, he won't listen to his own generals for God's sake when it comes to afghanistan (he hasn't "had time." But for some reason "had time" to fly to Copenhagen and lobby for the Olympics in Chicago). He buddies around with dictators who HATE US and wish for nothing but our demise. He constantly apologizes for your and my "arrogance" and "devisiveness" despite the fact that America has done more for humanitarian causes than any other nation on Earth. That doesn't offend you in the least? I thought he worked for ME, not the other way around. He's the one who made the decision that his liberal agenda mattered more than what the people want. He wasn't appointed "King" he was elected "President" to do the will of "The People" not push his leberal wish list on everybody whether they like it or not. And so far the only thing he's "King" of is broken promises. When he starts treating the public with respect maybe he'll get some in return.

Westbury:

Obama is the scariest President we ever had. How's that?

He bumbles about as if nothing is wrong in this country. We need attention, the problems need attention, and he must not isolate himself from the American people hiding outside the country, or sitting in Air Force One.

To some, generosity is craming what the people know won't work down their throats no how much it makes them gag, kick and scream. Isn't this what Bush was accused of?

"You get the government you deserve, not the one you want."

For those who still don't understand, politicians know what you want. The political polls tell them what people want. They modifiy their language to make their positions appear acceptable. When the get in, their new mission is to get another term, they either get "lost" in the DC political climate, or are involved in paying off the special interests that paid for the campaign.

Think of politicians and a bear, and the office as a honey comb or skunk cabbage patch. Want to get in their way?

Not that it will make a huge dent, but since the holidays are coming, two sites to help you shop for the holidays, one better than the other:

buydirectusa.com and madeinusa.org

Note that some toys, lead free, are listed.

Until election time, any little bit to support home produced goods and food is helpful.

It could be that a lot of conservatives are not hiring to make Obama look bad, I would not put it past them, considering all the this will be his Waterloo talk and actions, hold out Obama, they will hurt themselves be for its over!!!, and start taxing them as much as possible they caused this mess!!! and if possible go ahead and pass the public option with the 51 votes that we can use to get it done!!!

Dale.....Your making yourself look like an idiot!!

Tax more to destroy this country even more????? IDIOT!

John,

Unfortunately that is the constituency that this President panders to. The people who pay no taxes and live off the public dole want Obama to continue to hit the producers in this country. Once the percentage of deadbeats gets up over 50%, we are in big trouble in this country.

Dale, if what you say is true, then you have conceded that conservatives do indeed generate the jobs and the wealth for this country. I agree with john-665136. If this administration and Congress raise taxes on the business owners, look for more jobs to be lost.

dale,

you figured it out.it is a conspiracy by the conservatives.you are a genius!it has nothing to do with this administrations policies.

IDIOT!

Come on Dale!!! That is truly the dumbest comment i have seen recently.

Obama needs no help looking bad. He is destroying our county minute by minute, day by day.

What I find a bit ironic is that the same people who bit-ch and moan about government intervention in people's (and business) lives are in the same breath expecting the government to come to their immediate rescue. In no way do I defend government, but neither can I defend those who rail against it while expecting it to be their salvation. The dichotomy of this argument is frankly rather hilarious. This is a perfect economic storm in which business was a major contributor with their ponzi schemes to make a quick buck. Its easy to blame unions but there were no unions in the morgtage meltdown, insurance scams, and loose credit debacle which ultimately caused this major downturn.

Dale you really need to get a grip on reality.......quickly! Businesses create jobs. People who have jobs spend money if they feel secure in their job. If they are afraid of losing their job, guess what? They don't spend money. Simple equation. Also to tell people to spend more by way of loans and credit cards is not the way out, it's the way down. The Civil War is coming. This time the government will not win. You need to prepare before it's too late!

Student, I agree. The problem is we have to many "Dales" in this country. They will be o nthe other side when the civil war breaks out. I sure hope he is as vocal then as he is now.

You people need to stop acting like a "Push Button" society. You sit on your arse and don't get out and mobilize protests you can just sit there and whine for the rest of the depression.

The Civil War is coming. This time the government will not win. You need to prepare before it's too late!

So you are advocating revolutionary anarchy? Limbaugh will be thrilled ~ he's been majoring on that since Democrats gained control over congress and has really ratcheted up the rhetoric since Obama won the presidency. Its such a comfort to know that their are those who think we must destroy the Union in order to save it.

This country was founded by a revolution. Lets just say that if things keep going the way they are there will be a revolution in this country.

I have become debt free, and almost paid off my home, so I will not have to work another day to make them richer!!!

Dale, you will still have to work to pay your property taxes and healthcare expences.

you should be thanking Obama for not being in a recession right now

If we're not in a recession, what are we in? Thank you mr. President, things are sooo peachy!!

Repubs are sounding more and more like someone that wants a hand out

No Dale, we just want to keep a reasonable percentage of what we earn.

There will be no armed "revolution"/"overthrow" of the U.S. gov't by fringe nuts - there are plenty of armed citizens who would put down such traitors, in addition to government backed soldiers. Hopefully, any such idiots would be "put down" in a permanent way, so as to avoid the expense of a trial and incarceration.

Despite the current bad economy, this is still the best nation in the world. Our standard of living has been sold out by corporate welfare, at least get that straight.

Dont be so sure...

I am quite sure that any "American insurgents", due to the nature of our culture, would be promptly "put down" - to a great deal of cheering, in fact.

(Not that his loser buddies would be cheering, but the general populace.)

There are highly sucessful educated people out their in the Financial world. Why does he rely on Timmy Geithner?, The tax evader.

Open your narrow minded head, and start looking for the best in the business. You cannot do this on your own.---

Our standard of living has been sold out by corporate welfare

Addiem, From my perspective (middle class), handouts have been given to the rich Wall st. / CEO types and to the poor uneducated / lazy /or unfortunate (The last group being the ones who truely do deserve help). In fact, it is my demographic that will be paying for the redistribution. So, when you point out that some get "money for nothing" you need to look in both directions.

For example, Last year my group here at work busted ass, only to be overlooked for profit sharing that our upper management DID get. Then this year, they sell the company for half of what was offered last year, and give themselves bonuses again, while laying off staff. (Rich A-holes)

Then, you have the poor, some of whom do deserve help, but many others have learned how to work the system without actually working. Generations have collected from the gvt. and have taught their children to do the same. (Poor A-holes) How many of these guys have flatscreen TV's etc..?

It is the middle class working stiffs who are going to have to pay the bill for the welfare, and we are PISSED OFF. Frankly, I have never hated the U.S. government more than I do today.

Toxic - social programs for the truly needy are a drop in the bucket compared to the corporate example you gave...and the bailed out companies, of which AIG is likely to AGAIN request an extention on their payments, as was reported earlier this week.

The chronic poor issue is a problem, but tiny in comparison to corporate. Social welfare for the needy, like the unemployment benefits/food stamps/kiddie medicaid (whatever your state calls it, varies) for those out of work now - are a neccessary evil - and a number of states had to (by law) go to Uncle Sam for an emergency loan as their unemployment benefit funds RAN OUT. In the Great Depression, people did not have this social safety net.

The U.S. Government, indirectly, through lack of regulation and oversight of Wall Street/finanicials/banks, and subsequent bailouts/Corporate welfare, to crush our economy. In '29, some poor Wall Street financiers lost it all, jumped from the windows. Now, they got bailed out (by us). However, I did enjoy the photo of a guy on Wall Street holding a sign that said "Jump you f-ers, JUMP"...that was funny.

The difference between "then" and "now" is that now the Corporate Welfare folks say "I did nothing legally wrong" - they "just" acted ethically wrong. Too bad for us.

It could be that a lot of conservatives are not hiring to make Obama look bad, I would not put it past them,

Dale. I finally understand what your problem is:

YOU'RE INSANE!

I did enjoy the photo of a guy on Wall Street holding a sign that said "Jump you f-ers, JUMP"...that was funny.

I think I would like that photo too.

The difference between "then" and "now" is that now the Corporate Welfare folks say "I did nothing legally wrong" - they "just" acted ethically wrong. Too bad for us.

Whatever happened to the days when if you ran your company poorly, you didn't get a bonus? Like the BoA CEO getting something like $125Mil. for being incompetent/corrupt as he leaves. If the Wall St. Types knew that they would get nothing if they performed poorly, and their companies would go out of business, maybe they would do a better job of running their business.

Toxic - totally agree. I guess once they figured out they could get bailed out, it was every man for himself - all the back room deals. Shameful. But, hey, they got theirs. If we do go through a shake-down like the Depression, maybe this will be a wake up call to the business schools to teach better ethics, and force more accountability to shareholders?

Or, we could be like Mexico or European countries, where truly it is WHO you know, not what you know (formal education). Our unique system allows people to rise above their social station with a good education and some ambition, not so in other nations. If that ends, we will be no better than "them". Sad.

Dale may be an idiot, but the rest of you are acting like this whole mess began the day Obama took office. You would have the rest of us cimpletely ignore the fact that we saw this country headed in the wrong direction for 8 long years, (maybe even longer, I wasn't a big Clinton fan either). Think back to Enron, afinancial crisis that foretold how the lack of regulation was leading to a crisis in the financial markets. How many people lost their life savings in that mess. Consider energy prices over the last 9 years. How much damage have the speculatores and middlemen caused to our economy as regulations were relaxed allowing them to manipulate the markets. $4.00 a galllon maybe alright in Europes centralized villages and towns, but does not work in the sprawl of America.

Not defending Obama 100%, I have no idea if his policies will work over time. Still, I am not so stupid that I believe he is the cause of our current mess after only 9 months in office. This crisis was years in the making.

But Americans don't need jobs for the economy to improve.

770,000 cars were sold in August. Home sales are up.

I am a person who would like to buy a car, but can't even find one of several models I would like. I am pre-qualified to buy a house, but there are so many bids on so many houses that banks aren't even looking at my offers.

So, don't tell me there is a problem with the economy. If anything, people have too much money too spend! I say inflation will be welcome so that people will stop so much spending!

You my friend our an out of touch idiot who probably blames Bush when you spill your coffee in the morning!
Anyone with any knowledge KNOWS who cuased this.
Frank Dodd reid and the bozo club that is the democrats!

More socialist BS!!

Oh yeah, Obama did all this in 9 months. Who are the idiots. You right wing Republicans that's who. All you do is complain and try to spread fear. Why don't you try to find a solution instead of being part of the problem. We are in this mess because of corporate greed, we all know this only some of us will admit it. The tax breaks need to stop for these corporations and good old Wall Street is where we need reform.

Anyone with any knowledge KNOWS who cuased this.
Frank Dodd reid and the bozo club that is the democrats!

No sir. What caused this was/is greed, pure and simple. As Americans were being fleeced by legitimate corporate fraud, business was screaming for less regulation and even less oversight. To bolster their argument, they blamed regulation for the loss of American jobs to overseas labor. Now that their ox is in the ditch they beg for government intervention and those who cater to the conservative mindset are blaming government (past and especially present) for this disaster. The government cannot create jobs in the private sector ~ it can only create more government jobs and that is automatically criticized as "growing government." When it did throw money at failing enterprise, it was criticized for doing that. Now lets hear the five point steps Obama should follow to create jobs. Cutting taxes doesn't qualify ~ when you are unemployed and have no income, there are no taxes to cut. Cutting them on businesses will not create jobs ~ these fat cats will simply use the proceeds to cover their "losses." Small business will not recover with tax incentives unless there are customers with money willing to spend it. On this last point, those customers are now a rare find and getting rarer by the day.

Leigh14 WELL SAID!

Larry:

That is a lame excuse. It's been 10 months now for President Obama. When is he going to take responsibility for his job? When are you going to take responsibility for the inaccurate statements made here? Bush's fault. Laughable.

The Unemployment rate was NEVER at 16.3 percent as some claim, including part time workers.

Please don't live in the past. This President was elected to correct the problems. He's it now. No more parties and soirees--

Amercians are are going crazy. Just look at the votes here re: Unemployment today, not in Bush's administration.

How do I know that?

He promised in his campaign speeches and the continuing campaign speeches one for the last 10 months!

John P, I totally agree. And I'm glad you explained that you are a hard working small businessman struggling to keep your workers employed. It is too easy on these sites for people who are fortunate enough to have a job to say things like "just go get a job" or "people wanting to live off the govt." or "lazy"

I agree and I voted for Obama. BHO will indeed go down as the worst president ever and in second place will be George W. Bush.

he says it's going to get worse because it is reality. on the other hand if he says everything is looking up then you say he's out of touch. hmm.....nice to have things both ways.

We all know that this is one of Obama's primary objectives....eliminating jobs and keeping unemployment HIGH !!!

Where the Hell do you come up with these fantasies? I have read your entire post which attempts to explain the reasoning behind Obama's master plan. All I can glean from this galacticly insane rant is that you lost an election and now prefer to drink the wine of sour grapes. No, things are not good. They weren't good even BEFORE Obama became a candidate. It just took time for that discovery to manifest itself. The recession was underway long before the election in 2008 ~ but I recall BushCo vehemently denying one existed. Yet I salute Bush and his coterie ~ they managed to stave off the really bad news until they got out of town.

bravo jim

The fact is.....

If Obama TRULY wanted to STOP this continual downward spiral in the economy and our society... He KNOWS he can !!!

But, instead, he absolutely REFUSES to STOP IT !!!

The fact is.....

If Obama TRULY wanted to STOP this continual downward spiral in the economy and our society... He KNOWS he can !!!

But, instead, he absolutely REFUSES to STOP IT !!!

That is one of the most bizarre opinions I've heard. There is no elected official who would deny being able to be credited with causing a widespread improvement and the glory that would be associated with that.

The real fact is that no matter what anyone does, this recession will take time to sort itself out. There are no magic buttons to push or easy ways out or quick ways out by spending gazillions. The difference on how we all survive during this period is what separates the idiots from both sides of the fence. The majory rulers seem to think it's a good thing while we're all down to add extra hand-out programs by harping on the greed and excess of the wealthy. The minority party is trying to avoid an undue burden on those who are still gainfully employed and on potential employers. And contrary to popular belief most of those potential employers are smaller businesses.

dont try to make sense of the statement because it makes no sense. to them, obama would rather deal with this crap everyday than celebrate in the glory of pulling the country out of recession. they take stupidity of limbaugh, try to repeat it, butcher it up and it comes out dumber than the original limbaugh-ism.

i listen to the idiot for entertainment purposes and you'd be surprised at the mimicking these people do. no matter how stupid his comments are, they will show up here as the gospel of truth.

The fact is.....

If Obama TRULY wanted to STOP this continual downward spiral in the economy and our society... He KNOWS he can !!!

But, instead, he absolutely REFUSES to STOP IT !!!

If Obama and congress stopped the excess of greed that has and continues to drain the life blood of us/ the economy then he and congress would have to push for much stricter regulations on the companies and all that exploit the people in the name of greed. If this were to occur you rightist would cry even more to that of being a socialist agenda in which I would have to agree on that in a way of being socialism. What we have now is a free market of greed and stupidity in every sector of business... this is you so-called capitalism. In fact it is plutocracy, oligarchy and corporatocracy under the illusion of your so-called capitalism. When retards wake the f*ck up and read between the LIES then you will see that all/both of your pathetic parties are both at fault and to blame and even more so are the morons bickering back and forth that cant see the light of day because most of you have your heads so far up the ass. But hey this is the Great US of Attention deficit disorder... must be all the toxins in the pathetic quality of water supply we drink. I guess one good thing can be said about sterilizing male reproductive water... lesser morons to produce more morons; but I don’t expect most of you here to understand much of what I just said. So go pray to your so-called man made God and believe that heth commandth thee retardedth of his so-called children of fools.

Let me see, Iraq WILL end some day and the 10B a month with it. If that same 10B (which we can't afford) is then spent on some social program how long before it becomes 20, 30, 40, 100B to keep that afloat?

10 billion here for americans is better than wasting it in iraq, dont you think?

This sort of thing is why corporate welfare should be blamed for the current economy - they got theirs, screw the rest of us.

amen

Excellent comment, willie.... right on !!!

Willie: If Chicago gets the Olympics it would create a lot of jobs in this country, and you don't think that is important???

dale, have you ever bothered to investigate how long it takes on average for cities/regions to generate sufficient revenue from hosting the Olympic Games to break even?

dale....

It would be helpful if you would simply fess up and admit that you work for MSNBC.

You simply have NO credibility... your only purpose is to try to discredit the factual comments of honest, concerned individuals here.

dale, that might be jobs for chicago, but what about the rest of the country?

"Willie: If Chicago gets the Olympics it would create a lot of jobs in this country, and you don't think that is important???"

First they came for the games then they stayed for the corruption...lol

Someone does need to tell Obama about teleconferencing...you can be anywhere anytime without flying there.....

Hey dale, you missed the press release? Chicago is OUT as far as 2016 is concerned. So what's the plan now?

Is it legally possible for "the people" to petition a sitting president out of office.

Clamentine?????

Are you serious? The democrats cannot be stopped by the republicans! The dems have massive majorities. NOTHING the republicans can do can stop Obama Palosi and Reid.

It is the DEMOCRATS that are fighting among themselves that is stalling your dream of a socialist Utopia. Don't blame them!, its YOUR party causing the logjam.

The dems want you to believe the crap you spouted to cover their complete incompetnence in that they can do anything they want, and yet do NOTHING!

It is the DEMOCRATS that are fighting among themselves

Yes, Democrats who are conservative (i.e. the blue dogs) who for all practical purposes are more closely aligned to the Republican party than the Democratic. Just because they have a "D" in front of their name does not mean that they share the same views as the liberals. Had we had a true liberal majority, not just a political name majority, then we would be much further down the road right now. Health care reform should've been a slam dunk with a public option - it is a no brainer and it is still being discussed and rehashed because of the so called Democrats who are really acting like Republicans.

Oh my darling Clementine--how sad to see you in such a poor state. I hope you recover quickly.

Please, please, keep kicking the blue dogs. If you do it often enough perhaps they'll switch parties and we'll finally be able to put the brakes on this horrific socialist disaster.

td3k,

So what you are saying is that the only wat the democrats can have a majority is if republicans run as democrats...interesting....

ScoMata: I think it definitely shows that the country is more conservative than it is liberal and therefore it has been primarily conservative policies that have been in play for a long time now, for good or ill. Many of the ideas being promoted now are more liberal, or at least left of center, than previously attempted and there has been a push back - an unwillingness to explore new ideas. And I think that is very unfortunate because we need some new ideas and some new policies. It would be much better if the blue dogs changed their party affiliation to Republican - because that's who they are in ideology. At least it would be less confusing.

The company name is EXEL LOGISTICS. I meant to say "their" fault in the post above, please excuse the typo!

Jim V-----Working instead of griping might have saved your job.

DenverYo,

What the hell are you talking about? I was the Supervisor of 2nd shift. I had 30 to a 125 people I was responsible for on my shift. I was working. I was standing up for what is right.

Denveryo, yo! You think that was called for, eh? Stick to the topic and quit bi$$h slapping.

I just do not understand why labor has not stood up and demanded more money from their employers.

and

Jim V-----Working instead of griping might have saved your job.

Jim: Employee's are scared to death for their jobs, their not going to demand anything or make any waves, that's why ! The old saying ..... " the squeaky wheel gets all the oil " doesn't apply here, in this day and times. Employers have the advantage in these economic hard times ... so for the employers, this old saying applies.... " the loudest squawking chicken in the barnyard, gets the axe ! " Can you smell what I'm cooking here ?!

I can smell what your cooking camdenroger. I was just being "Patriotic" and actually doing something and not just talking about it. I understand complete what you are saying but if more people had the balls to stand up for what is right things would change real quick and you would not see wage scales of CEO 500 times the average laborers salary and illegals would have to go though the proper channels to get their green cards to work here in America.

There are that many people employed by the government who RETIRE, QUIT, OR GET FIRED each month !!!

BUT, DID THEY MENTION THAT ?????....... NO !!!!!!!

that is the only sector that has job growth - the government!

No they will import the shovels from China.

That will really help unemployment......... not. :(

The shovels will be imported from China and "issued" to us so we can start digging our own graves...There will be no recovery, no real employment, and no freedom. Free men do it themselves without governmental interference, we only have two sets of rules to live by, TWO SETS...The Constitution and BILL of RIGHTS...There is a revolution coming...The criminals will be held accountable...We are FREE MEN !!! Remember??? FREE MEN...

A gem from my dad – you know what an expert is, right? An ‘ex’ is a has been and a ‘spurt’ is a drip under pressure.

give it time...oh and BTW, did you read the whole article? The actual unemployment rate is about 17% - if you include those who maxxed out on benes or just gave up!

That means Fox and Glenn Beck were right. Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeek.

Whatever will happen to TV journalists now?

>(~..^)<

The economists were sounding the warning drum last year - I was able to convince my spouse before the market tanked, to get out of the market as much as possible, and that minimized the 401k drop. We'll see how this unfolds, even if holiday spending can hold it off a bit- will there be another market correction? Severe? With the way things are, why not?

1. Banks do not want to lend because they think they may not get the money back.

2. Borrowers do not want to borrow because they think they may not be able to pay it back.

Totally agree, just not quite sure of the scale of it all. It's October - let's see how it goes. Bummer.

Right on! I'm sick of the same people who cry "socialism!" because the President wants healthcare reform with a public option being the same people who blame the President for not fixing the economy, or in other words, for not being socialist enough! Red wool or blue, they're still just sheep.