Detroit's automakers face coastal conundrum

They make crappy cars.

I'm from the heartland (Minnesota), and for generations all my family has bought is American brand cars. I've personally owned a Chevy Silverado, and a Pontiac Grand Prix. The Chevy has almost 200,000 miles on it, and the Grand Prix has nearly 135,000. Throughout either of the car's lives, I've never had a single major problem with them. Personally, I've seen far more problems with cheaper import brands, such as Hyundai and Toyota. Not to mention, I think foreign cars are EXTREMELY ugly, poor performance, and say what you want about American "gas guzzlers", but I think I'd rather take my chances in a 1/2 pick up then a little toyota prius in an accident anyday. I'm proud to say I own American. I live on the Iron Range, which produces the vast majority of iron used in America today, alot of which ends up in the cars we drive. Sure, alot of foreign brands have their cars made in America, but where do the profits ultimately end up? I really think people on the coasts should try being more "open minded", as they like to tell us people from the heartland, when it comes to choosing their next car.

Detroit is making better cars today but their reputation of the past 2 decades still lingers . They put out such crap cars and lousy dealer service with plenty attitude as well.

Overpriced garbage ,ugly garish styling and poor reliability all add up to making people run to the Toyota dealer or other Asian car dealer . Sorry ,big three you have a huge uphill battle to contend with. I would NEVER trade my Toyotas for a Ford ,GM,or Chrysler product !

Resale values are also better on most Asian cars .

Politically Correct overpriced  Plain  Jane  BORING VEHICLES!!  

A person that grew up in the 60's 70's,80's, 90's, 00's, has a different sense of what is "COOL"

Bob Lutz has alway's been a car guy.  He is the niche marketer.  The problem is there are sooo  many niches!!!

Socioeconomic conditions plus age plus immigration generational status plus geographical location plus intelligence  yields a infinite amount of tastes of the automotive plate.

In some circles honda's are so boring! But the same can be said of BMW's and MB"s!

Some People Identify with their car.  Some people have no personality!!!!!

It used to be you would sit down and order YOUR car.   But after much marketing study it was found that a few options would suffice for the majority of the public, the rest would just have to make do.  All in the name of efficency.  Fitting a square peg in a round hole I believe is the term.

Anymore I modify my cars and plan on the future to build or rebuild  my own cars and trucks given the manufacturing of kits cars and components with internet access  and over all reduction of price.   Instead of buying a  fad badged politically mandated save some microscopic germ vehicle and having to maintain a credit rating just to be in debt.    Foreign or Big Three.   Thats BORING!!!!    

I have NEVER owned a good, reliable car made by the big 3. I have owned Chevy, Ford, Pontiac, Buick, Chrysler and Plymouth over the years. All were junk. In recent years I have owned Hondas. Never a hint of trouble. Regardless of how Government Motors recasts the new company, I will never own another American car. To top it all off, I had a GM bond in my retirement portfolio that is now worthless. I think I have done my patriotic duty to support the Big 3, and they have let me down.

Simple. They lost "perception". This perception shift occured in the 1980's when Japan targeted quality as the only way to break into the US market. During this time, because of capital expenses that Detroit had already made, they had these large chassis from the 1970's, and to offer better gas mileage plunked small engines in them. The result was predictable.

There is still a "sexiness" factor with anything foreign made. That is why you hear foreign accents when someone trys to sell you something on TV. It makes the product seem better, or more sexy.

This "sexiness" is what Bob Lutz targeted with the Pontian Solstice and Saturn Sky.

Up and down GM's lineup now is filled with top-quality products with top-notch interiors (FINALLY). The GMC Acadia, the Buick Enclave, the Chevy Malibu, the Chevy Traverse, the new Buick LaCrosse.

A young co-worker was recently looking for a CUV. He sent me an IM telling me that he preferred the Chevy Traverse over the Toyota RAV-4. Him and I have debated cars in the past, with him swearing by Japanese products. So to get this IM from him both made me chuckle, and surprised me.

Detroit is improving, yet the Japanese are not standing still and are improving as well. The quality gap that existed several years ago has shrunk, is non-existent, or is leaning towards the Americans in some cases.

"Perception" is the issue that sticks in people minds. If in the past you were satisfied with priduct X, you are sub-consciencely pre-disposed to like it, even though in actuallity it's quality has shrunk.

Regarding the Camaro SS. A kid his age has probably never felt the incredible torque from a normally aspirated American V-8. This same co-worker I mentioned before had an RX-7. He wanted to go for a ride in my '02 Corvette Z06. He was screaming like a little girl as I throttled hard through 1st, then 2nd. He never felt anything like. It is at once deeply satidfying to be placed into your seat, and secondarily exhilerating to hear that sound. The new Camaro SS comes with more standard power than my previous gen Corvette Z06. With highway gas mileage approaching 30 mpg.

I bought a

brand new Detroit car came with rear shocks not bolted down

brand new Detroit car had floor boards rusted out at 75,000 miles

brand new Detroit pick up needed a new rear end every 25,000 miles

brand new detroit car kept blowing head gaskets.

I love my Toyota

I have always bought American cars, always Chrysler, some of them used and some new. I have found Chrysler cars to be reliable, surprisingly durable over the long run, easily serviced, and have never been disappointed in the cars. I am pleased to buy American.

However, these days, even I am challenged by Chrysler's ugly, even strange, car designs. The current Sebring 4-door offering is a visual disaster, a lump on wheels, and the Sebring convertible has now reduced its trunk capacity/utility to near zero. The Avenger seems to have been designed by children, and seems to be the end product of never-resolved arguments between competing power groups within Chrysler's design staff. The Charger is an obvious knock-off of the successful 300 model and represents an attempt to convince the public that a boxy 4-door is actually 'cool', thus contaminating the marketing power of the Charger nameplate. The now defunct Neon, Chrysler's only attempt to produce a smaller car, continually presented a cheap, silly, circus-inspired image.

Compare ANY of these Chrysler cars to their respective Japanese counterparts and you will see why the Japanese marques are succeeding where American brands are failing; the Japanese designs make the American models seem crude, thoughtlessly designed, and cheap.

I have little doubt that, from a mechanical perspective, American cars can match Japanese cars, yet Detroit can learn from the Japanese even in this respect. But it is the lack of modern, sophisticated, thorough, original design, both inside and outside, that causes customers to turn away from American cars.  What the customers sees in American-brand showrooms does not compare favorably to what it sees in Japanese-brand showrooms.

I think that American manufacturers do not understand this reality.

I live in the Detroit area and will never buy a GM product ever again. I bought a Chevy station wagon a number of years ago and it was a dud. GM failed to fix the car (in warranty) and I had to spend several thousand dollars to get it fixed to sell it. That was the last American (Detroit) car I will ever own. A company with an expensive product should know that customer service is essential to repeat buyers. I have been pleased with the Asian cars I have purchased weather used or new. GM had it's chance to make me a loyal customer and lost it. Take me to the Toyota, Honda and Accura showroom if you please.   

It's a combination of perception of low quality and competition on cost. The quality problem has been largely fixed, but the accountants that run GM still believe in building to cost, then adding rebates and monetary incentives to buy. As a result, Detroit is always bleeding the cash that should be used in R&D and marketing to make better products. BMW realizes that not only will people buy quality cars, but they will buy the same car two, three or more times over its lifetime. Building a more expensive quality car can generate more revenue if the manufacturer controls the maintenance and financing of the car as it car is sold and resold over its lifetime. As a result, BMW generates far more income than the Detroit companies that sell the same car only once at a marginal profit.

American car quality perception or reality.

Chev Malibu; manifold intake gasket eaten up by antifreeze, paint not gasoline resistant. Look at any of the "Malibu" GM line, notice the rusted out panel below the gas fill cap. Who would guess people might spill gas at the fill cap, why bother with a good paint job. Problems with antitheft ignition preventing car startup.

GM Saturn; 1.8L 4cyl engine, oil pours through the pistons/rings after a mere 80K miles even if taken to the dealer every 3,000 miles for an oil change. Good one, a self destruct engine.

Ford Focus; both rear window controllers broke (raises/lowers windows). Cheap ignition cylinder components causes lockup/out of key. to many other issues to even mention.

Of course the above is just my imagination. After all poor quality American made cars is just a perception, not a reality.

Please add to the list with your example. Some people just do not understand.

Part of the problem is that consumers have long memories. For example, the last American car my mom owned was a 1970's Ford Pinto wagon. Fittingly, it was yellow, because it was a total lemon. After that, she owned a 1979 Datsun (before they were Nissan) 280ZX bought new, which went for 16 years with hardly a problem (it ate A/C compressors, but the driveline never failed). She would have kept it even longer had it not been rear ended and totalled by the insurance company - even in totalled condition, it was still driveable - the car didn't want to die. Then, she had a new Honda Civic, which ran perfectly for 8 years until she traded it in for new '03 BMW 3-series, which has only needed oil changes and a set of tires. It's the old adage: fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Old perceptions die hard. Logically, I know full well that American made cars are, overall, on a par with imports in terms of quality. However, you only have to have been burned once to be risk averse as to how you are going to spend your hard-earned money. When you have a negative reputation to overcome, it is not enough to be as good as the competition. You have to be better. And you have to back it up with long, comprehensive, and no-nonsense warranties. Have the confidence in your product to back it up and say "Nervous buyer, we're going to reduce your risk." If Detroit can't have that kind of confidence in their vehicles, they shouldn't ever expect those who were once burned by them to come back, particularly people like my mom, who have never had a major problem with their imports.

I doubt whether my mom will ever own an American car again. As for me, I've had three BMW's during my driving days ('73 2002, '91 318is, '95 525i), but I am not sure I want another one. The engines run forever, it's just that everything else breaks, especially suspension components, fuel pumps, and water pumps. They drive great, but those costs eat you up. In a nod to the home team, I am eyeing the new Taurus. Ford did a great job on the design, although the nearly $30K sticker for a mid-range model is keeping me on the fence for now. Favorable terms and a comprehensive warranty might seal the deal.

I have owned mostly American-made cars over 40 years of driving, mainly Buick sedans, Chevy Corvettes and Ford Mustangs. However, I have also owned an MG Midgets and grew up with VW bugs and VW vans. The MG Midget was the worst car I ever owned when it came to mechanical and service problems. VWs were great and ran forever! As an adult, I favored a buy-American philosophy and have not been disappointed with any of my American cars, many of which were well over 100,000 miles upon trade in. Service from the dealers was always excellent, but that may be because living in less-populated suburban areas we tended to only have one dealer per maker and stayed with them forever. They were like family and in one instance actually was family! That said - I will only buy Ford from now on, since they were the only one to NOT take a government bailout. Go Ford!

Detroit has this problem because they've spent years trying to sell us the cars they want to build, rather than the cars we want to buy!  Hello!  The message has been sent loud and clear and they still continue to heavily market the (admittedly profitable) HUGE trucks and lumpy, ugle sedans and so on.  What... are these supposed to get my testosterone going?  One of my old Hondas I gave to my son when he learned to drive.  The other one ran until the body basically fell off.  My Subaru now... I think I'll have it forever.  Why doesn't Detroit just copy one of those?????

I think in a lot of cases it is a matter of perception trumping reality. However, as ChrisMcK states, consumers have a long memory. I have owned five "American" cars: a '78 Plymouth Sapporo (which was actually a re-badged Mitsubishi), a '92 Pontiac Grand Am, a '98 Saturn SL2, a '99 SC1, and an '01 Olds Alero (that doesn't include my father's '87 Ford Taurus that had the alternator die on my prom night). I've also owned an '85 Prelude, a '94 Corolla, and a '99 Accord. My wife and I currently have an '04 CR-V and an '04 Mazda RX-8.

The Plymouth and the Grand Am had some minor problems, but nothing that was a deal breaker. The Alero, on the other hand, was the biggest piece of crap anyone ever slapped four wheels on and called a car. Me and my Louisville Slugger would like 10 minutes alone in a room with the Alero design and quality teams because whoever unleashed that product on the American public deserves a world-class beatdown.

Could I have gotten a lemon? Sure. Did GM make some compromises on what was essentially their entry-level product? Yes.

Will I fondly remember this experience the next time I go shopping for a car? No. In fact, aside from a Saturn, there are no GM products I would seriously consider to replace either the CR-V or RX-8 in my driveway, and GM has shed that brand as part of their bankruptcy. I know it's not fair to a current model, but I will always factor in my experience with the Alero when weighing a new car.

Unfortunately for the Big Three, there are lots of other people who have had similar experiences. I also believe there is less brand loyalty among younger consumers today, so this does not bode well for auto manufacturers fighting a perception that they build inferior products.

DETROIT old class is OUT!!!!

NEW CLASS do not know how to make cars.

WELL , TO ALL ABOVE , when the japs start making a truck that will pull a 40' 17,000 lb. trailer up a hill without rolling backwards, i may consider changing from american make. but until then, i'll pull any combination of 2 to 3 or even more toyota's - honda's backwards with my dodge truck that has 200,000 miles on it. it would take 3 toyota's to do the same job.

In 2000, after much soul searching, and months of research,  I decided to swallow deeply and buy, for the first time in 20 years, an American made (ok, in Mexico) Ford Escort ZX2.  I bought this over Toyota (which I have also owned), Honda, Hyundai, and several other foreign makes I researched.  Frankly, the determining factor at the time was price.  I was financially restrained, and the ZX2 was simply several thousands of dollars less than the other makes I was considering.

Now, nine years later, I can report that, without any hesitation, the ZX2 is the best car I have ever owned.  It rides well, gets good milage, is fun, has never had anything other than routine maintenance (I'm still on the original battery and tires).  What else is there to ask for?

Before the ZX2 I had owned Toyotas and several GM and Chrysler cars.  The GM and Chrysler products were junk, pure and simple.  They drove me, quite literally, into the waiting arms of Toyota.

And, by the way, don't feed me this line of crap that if you buy a foreign car you are less an American than me.  I don't buy it.  Americans are supposed to be a tenacious, independant lot.   People who don't put up with nonsense, who use their brains, and who make up their own minds.  If you've been burned, over and over, buying American made products, your natural inclination is to look elsewhere. 

As George W. Bush (another inferior product Americans got tired of being burnt with) once tried to say, "Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me."

Oh, and one other thing, as long as I'm wasting some time here, when did it happen that all the ills of the American automobile industry were the fault of employees being paid too much money?  Remember, at GM, it took 100 assembly line workers to equal the annual pay of one CEO.

The J.D. Powers surveys are for INITIAL quality. Everyone loves their cars for the first year.

But then...............

You only have to look at Consumer Reports auto issue to get the real low-down on reliability. And the "Big Three" plus most of the European fail miserably.

In fact, Consumer Reports said they cannot recommend ANY Chrysler product!

I have a small block Chevy powered old S10, it eats little kids in Tuner Cars. For a crappy mix of Detroit parts it's got 200,000 miles on the drive train and 300,000 on chassis. It'll light 'em in all six gears and keep 'em lit for as long as you can hold the pedal to metal. Plus when you lift off and cruise to and from work it'll pass out 22 MPG on the superslab in commuter stop and go traffic. It's crude, it's loud, it's sudden, it's fast, it's dependable, it's emissions legal, it's maintainable in my garage, it gets pretty good gas mileage for 10 second street legal drag machine, and it's cheap to keep.

I don't care if Honda, Toyota, Kia, BMW, etc built 'em in my garage, they're just foreign crap, nothing a real American would be caught dead in.

RJH Seattle

It's funny that the liberal left and right coasts buy foreign even though they tout buy American and love the UAW. As ususl with liberal fascists, it's "Do as I say, not as I do". All the while, conservative middle America has bought American and supported the UAW with their dollars.

So, now that the UAW has ticked conservatives like me off to the point that I'll never buy another UAW built car, and liberals will likely continue to buy Toyota, etc., what do you think is the future of GM, Chrysler, and even Ford? I think that Chrysler will go first, then, GM, with Ford holding out the longest. If the UAW get's a clue and agrees to more consessions to keep Ford alive, they just might make it, but GM will likely go before Gettlefinger, et al, take their blinders off.

Hmmm, Many facts, and a lot of emotional responses here. But when you step back and look, the american "Big Three" have had a good run. But it seems to be the american industry ideal to "take the money and run" anymore. American industry has turned it's back on quality and the consumer for years now. They just love to pat themselves on the back and smile at how clever they are, all the way to the bank. I think, unless other american industries take a hard look at themselves, and a very close look at the "Big Three", they will soon follow suit. Look at Chrysler. They were in trouble years ago, fought they're way back, and then slipped right back into the old thought process. (Take the money now.....screw tomarrow). Well gentelmen......tomarrow is here! Folks, your are seeing the decline of your country right now. You are witnesing history. America is dying, as a world leader, and our industrial leaders are leading the way. If you listen closely, you'll hear taps playing in the background, getting louder every day. I don't know the answer......but the American people better wake up soon........very soon......

I have owned 7 chevy vans  and all but 1 (it had a 3 on the tree but blew a motor) have had transmission failure, even the 2004 has had 2 trannies and not even made 190,000 yet.

my ex had a 80 mustang which fell apart and I had a 75 F250 4wd which literally fell apart

my 89 4runner had 200K when I sold it, I talked to the guy I sold it to it now has over 300K, my sisters celiac was retired w/over 300K, my 95 4runner has well over 200K (even on that 3.0 V6) every Toy I have owned has been bashed, thrashed and in general been abused by my standards but kept on running.

I will admit I stuck a buick 231 in my 79 Toy PU and it ran like a SOB, but with the exception of the Vette and the Suburban everything from Detroit is junk, poor quality and overpriced!

Doesn't anyone remember why Congress passed the lemon laws, decades ago? It wasn't to protect us from the Japanese and European imports.

Well my dad was always a Ford person. I have always been a Ford person. The few times I have bought a Toyota or Honda I hated them both within a few months. I'm a big man and these little toys made for small people with skinny little arse's just aren't comfortable for me. My best friend has a small Ford Escape it is good vehicle but not comfortable for travel. It's fine for him but I just can't get comfortable. I own a Ford Crown Vic with big V8 and room to be comfortable on the highway since I travel so much. I was fearful of the gas mileage but am surprised on the highway, depends how I'm driving I can get from 23 to 25 mpg and I dont feel beat to hell when I get to my destination.

The bailouts that the government gave to Chrysler and GMC really chapped me because they ended up going to bankruptcy anyway. They should have just done that to start with and saved the government billions. As for Ford I commend them for stepping up and doing the right thing and getting their company under control. They've shown a profit this quarter with no help from the government. I am chapped that this buy up program where the government is giving the consumer up to 4500.00 to buy a more efficient car, but what gets me is they are offering this incentive to consumer to buy toyota, honda mazda and other foreign auto makers. I think they should only allow that incentive to go to GMC Chrysler and Ford american auto makers. If foreign dealers want the public to buy cars they can offer incentive for their cars. I also think americans buying foreign cars is half the problem the big three got into trouble in the first place. I consider those people traders to our economy. Since we are all free to have our own opinion this is mine.