Think about all this when you go to your next music concert or send your kids to one. Add in a movie. Pop culture doesn't seem to be affected at all.

In your spare time, start studying economics. Add Sociology (not what THEY want you to study).

"...and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free..."

And, most of all reject the system of caste and pragmatism.

I think you should show a little compassion for these people(14.3 million) they are not all auto workers. All the the jobs associated with the auto industry were not UNION, these people are suffering like those in all industries. I retired from a Chemical Company, there have been large job losses there as well. How about looking around and you will see that people all over this Country have lost jobs. The trickle down economics has not worked. It should be obvious to most that the wealthy have not suffered like the middle class. But some defend them and blame the people who have lost their jobs. Whether you like it or not the job market affects every business in this Nation. Massive job losses can cause reduced pay and jobs in all parts of our economy, including some of the jobs many of you have.

Corporate America is bankrupt.....after the jobs disappear....so will the companies....

This has nothing to do with the union.

What kind of car is in your driveway?

What about your neighbor?

The uncomfortable truth is that it's not just high-school-educated blue-collar workers who are struggling to find a job in America these days.  Those of us who went on to college after high school and got a degree or two are finding that there are only hourly, low-paying service-sector jobs available.  Many of the higher-paying jobs have been sent overseas, even in fields that were "hot" a few years ago (like IT).  And we can't even get hired for the $10 and $12 an hour positions that are available - we're told we're "over-qualified" and asked why we'd want to take a position "like this".  If you explain that you have a family to feed, you look desperate and they still don't hire you.  Can someone please tell me what jobs you expect all these "retrained" workers to get?????

$16 an hour is good f**king money,especially if you live in Detroit and can buy a house for $30,000 (might want to add some bars on the windows but still).If your pay has dropped by a third that's probably the amount you were overpayed!

You can't feed a family off $10 to $16 an hour, Fred. It seems to me that so many people who think that working people shouldn't make more than that a) have never made anywhere near that little themselves and therefore don't have a clue as to what it takes to live like that, and b) don't have kids. The whole debate seems to be over what one person should reasonably have to live on (although we don't want to mention that the CEO's are skimming off 500 times as much and that the average Wall Street worker makes $236 an hour.)

So what are the kids of America supposed to live on? Sounds like many of you have the same attitude as that Missouri legislator - "Hunger is a great motivator." If it were, sub-Saharan Africa would be the productivity capital of the planet. The US has the most productive workers in the world, but we're nowhere near the best paid. Until we reform the huge wage gap that has developed between the CEO's/financial sector and the rest of us, we're going to starve.

Has anybody read 'Rivethead'? Anybody who's worked in almost any manufacturing facility at any time in the last 25 years could have seen this coming if they were paying attention. Manufacturing 'management' has been mostly clueless for a long, long time. And yes, the unions got a little full of themselves. And get a copy of 'Your Money or Your Life' by Joe Dominguez and Vicki Robin.

Blaming unionized workers for the problems of the American auto industry misses a couple of very important points. First of all, many of the more successful foreign companies are also unionized in their home countries. Many auto workers in South Korea and Western Europe, for example, are unionized and paid quite well. Also, very few Americans realize that direct labor costs are a very small part (10-15%) of the cost of a car or truck. The two things that have really hobbled the American car companies are products that too often have not been popular with car buyers, and healthcare costs. Hourly workers have virtually nothing to do with product development decisions, so they can't reasonably be blamed for that. And the UAW can hardly be faulted for demanding good healthcare benefits for its members. In fact, the UAW has always supported the idea of national health insurance, which would address one of the key ways that our manufacturing industries are at a competitive disadvantage in relation to foreign competitors, virtually all of which have national healthcare systems in their home markets. Both unionized and non-unionized companies go bankrupt all the time, but unions are always blamed when a unionized company has problems. The reason for that is that blaming working people distracts from other causes such as management errors and problems with public policy, and leads people to all too simplistic conservative conclusions. Radio blowhards and corporate-sponsored politicians like to trash unions, but it is really worth digging a little deeper to get at the truth.

I don't blame union workers,I blame union (and corporate) management.To RAF I have rarely crossed the $40,000 a year mark so saying I don't understand making do on a small salary is a no go.

You have been listening to too much to the drug addicted,mentally ill Rush rant-he is paid by the same people who bankrupted this country. Grow your own brain. It is the hoarding,swindlers that broke this company like all others-from the top. They have sucked this country dry. The same that are first in line for handouts. The bailouts for millionaires initiated by Bush via his Treasury Secretary Paulson was yet another clear example in long history of failed capitalism. A scheme to feed hoard and greed for a few at everyone else's expense.

who wouldn't take a mind numbing job for $35 per hr. The problem is, they really should have been making around $20. Then making $15 wouldn't be such an adjustment. I hope they saved all that gravy.

Making the money is not the real issue. It is WHERE it is spent and to WHOM receives it.

Learn to walk by.

If you consider the pay of the CEO's, $35 an hour was not unreasonable in the least. If the CEOs had not been so greedy and trying to manipulate numbers to show a profit so they could justify the outrageous bonuses they recieved, most manufacturing industries could have remained more competitive and profitable. Also, outsourcing and temporary staffing has proven to hurt craftsmanship. With such a high turnover and no loyalty to workers, these solutions turned out to be a big part of the problem. And at a time when the cost of everything was going up and still is, who wouldn't take a good paying job to help take care of their family and try to prepare for a future? Another problem is that "the powers at be" are always looking for cheap labor and pocketing the profits instead of passing it off to consumers or giving the workers some incentives!

$72K is but only a small fraction of what the CEOs, VP and Chairmen made. None of them did much of anything except decide who got layed off, what golf range to schedule tee off times, what exspenive business trips to plan and voting each other raises and bonuses all for having nothing to do with engineering or physically making a component or vehicle.

One CEO's pay without the stock options or bonuses could easily pay for 40 workers over 20yrs at a rate of $65k per year or $31 per hour. Now that's 40 families whose lives could be reasonably sustained for 20 years, compared to 1 year of pay for a CEO. Now you talk to me about GREED!!!

I remember when that greedy pig CEO welch was getting his personal 50 million dollar airplane on the shareholders dime, the entire accounting department got outsourced to India that same year.

Don't look now but "Cap and Trade" amounts to a job windfall for China and India. I heard the Presidents weakly (that is not mispelled) radio address where he tried to spin it, but the bottom line is more jobs lost on top of a depression.Nice work, Democrats!I have never pulled a straight party ticket in close to 30 years of voting but one more idiotic radical egghead enviromental bill and I'll throw down for the Republicans next November!

Greek was on both sides of the isle; when we get realistic, if ever, the USA will be great once again. We also need to get our government and special interest in line also, if not welcome to 60 to 70 working poor, and eventually a USA of past glory.

I agree which is why I am an independent but the past few weeks have seen an emboldened Democrat party passing increasingly bad bills.The "cap and trade" bill is the worst bill passed (well it still has to be rubber stamped by the senate but with Sen. Franken I'm not betting against it) in my lifetime.

I find the notion of "union greed" here rather fascinating. At no point did the union decide what it would be paid. Management made the decision. If they accepted an unsustainable contract, that reflects poorly on management. Did they choose the contract in order to avoid tough and open negotiations? Were they cowed by those tough union types? Then they were destroyed by their spinelessness and/or short-sightedness. It would be telling for someone to review 10-K's and compare labor costs between the different companies. I'm still of the mind that US auto manufacturers were out innovated by the competition.

@Fred G

Until you have a better idea than cap and trade for reducing output of C02 and spurring major private investment in renewable energy, shut the hell up. Or are you one of those morons who believes right-wing politicians have a better grasp on climate science than the actual scientists?

More importantly, if you spent a little time doing some research instead of listening to radio blowhards, you would understand the negligible impact cap and trade will have on the economy, and the large net benefits it creates for our energy future and more importantly, the planet itself.

By 2020, Cap and Trade will cost US citizens about $200 a year, a tiny fraction of average income. Over time, It will save hundreds of billions of dollars in not only direct energy costs mitigated by the rise of cost savings utilizing renewable energy, but the enormous world-wide financial impact of the consequences of climate change, including sea level rises, flooding, desertification of crop land, hurricane damage, etc.

Use your brain a little:

Congressional budget office report: "An Evaluation of Cap-and-Trade Programs for Reducing U.S. Carbon Emissions"

MIT: Assessment of U.S. Cap-and-Trade Proposals

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If most CEO's were paid what they're actually worth, instead of what they think they're worth, The majority of them would owe us money.

Unions were created to give the "working man" an even break...Unfortunately, as in all self governing entities, they got out of control, and now endanger all middle class Americans.

If you were ever disresptful to my face lc,(I dare anyone to ever tell me to "shut the hell up"and not be joking) you would be picking yourself off the ground, tough guy.The fact that you buy into Ozone alGore's magic elixar is not my problem.The fact is this will (just like NAFTA,another environmental disaster Gore supported) result in more damage to the environment not less.Do you think that moving refinery operations offshore will result in cleaner refineries?The way forward should involve planning for regional (500 miles and less mainly) high speed rail,hybrid or electric mass transit (which all require more nuclear energy) and developing biofuels.We will not be able to eliminate internal combustion engines in my lifetime (and I'm 47) so we have to maximize the efficiency of what we have(turbocharging,direct injection and hybrid systems are a start) and work toward the future.In 50 years we might be able to place our remaining internal combustion vehicles (and probably not planes) in museums but not before.

If you were ever disresptful to my face lc,(I dare anyone to ever tell me to "shut the hell up"and not be joking) you would be picking yourself off the ground, tough guy

Always a hallmark of a great debater.

Well-said Mike 1460!

CEOs and executives are considered exception to the wage formula. I am not saying that their paid is fair or justified... but it is kinda like a rock-star making $millions by just singing and partying... they are just part of an elite minority group.

However, for the rest of us... imagine if everyone can get $100K for putting together auto-parts on an assembly line, then who would want to spend endless hours studying and paying thousands of $$ for tuition? Well, it is sad but this is a reality for the union workers of America. Remember, if it is too good to be true, it will get adjusted in the long run. Kinda like me: I am just an engineer... so I am not surprised to get paid less than a medical doctor... but when my wage approaches that figure.... that is when I know I need to diversify my income because it is not going to last....

Good luck... welcome to college!

Hey Mike,

Your math is flawed. You heard the guy say he was making $23 an hour. so 2080 hours a year brings him $48,000 a year before taxes. And now he will be a nurse for $16 an hour. He aint gettin' rich! And here is something else everybody seems to miss. The unions negotiate for cost of living raises, and that is why the government only counts clothes pins and paper clips in the inflation index. If they counted food, health care, and energy costs, they would have to give workers a 10% boost every year. Corporate America is corrupt and dying. God Bless the working man.

All this blaming of "unskilled" labor. That labor creates wealth in our country and keeps the dollar from being worth nothing. How many of you have jobs the actually create wealth (financial jobs don't count)? These statements that all these union workers are unskilled and making $30/hr are false. First off, many of these people actually have real skills like being a machinist or PLC programmer. What skills do you have, you can use MS Word or do a spreadsheet (so can they)?

Most of the well paid Union jobs are being replaced or will be replaced with temps that make $14/hr. I'm not a pro-Union person at all, but the pendulum has swung to far the other way. Our government, is the main culprit behind the failure of the middle class by allowing CEOs to operate without impunity and outsource and globalize for the sake of "business." Both parties share the blame, but the Republicans share a larger percentage of the blame. Our government hasn't figured out that they need to stop treating us as only consumers. If the consumer cannot buy the product because they do not have a well paying job then Economics101 goes out the window.

you are wrong about that. We went through this in the 1970's and again in the 1980's. Two times we lost everything we had. I realize you were not even born at that time. And if you think building cars is easy work, try it. Out of 10 people hired only 2 make it. It's heavy fast work. It wears your body down and wears out your joints,elbows, knees, shoulders. Also we do not make $35 an hour.

If the job market still sucks this fall,I'm going to take the new G.I. bill that I've earned,and use it to get a degree (and despite my comment above it is not lost on me that many of the chicken hawk Republicans voted against it).

pygme, you betray your ignorance in assuming my age. It happened on the 70's and 80's because as usual the american auto industry was extremely poorly run and many of the folks on the floor did shoddy work. They failed to forsee the demand for more fuel efficient cars, and of course the oil shortage didn't help. Also, quality (driven by those on the manufacturing floor) was horrendous. It allowed the foreigns to come in and take over.

In the 90's I worked at a US auto dealership for 3 years. In that time we had half a dozen cars, that were assembled in the US come in sabotaged. Lug nuts on string hung in doors, or welded into the frame, or similar stuff. I knew many UAW workers who bragged, seriously bragged about worked <8 hours and getting paid for 8. Stealing stuff from the floor and other abuses.

As for working on the floor being tough. I have no doubt it is not easy work and many folks do work a very hard day. However, before you het too pumped up over it, there are many other workers on other jobs who would find it cushy.

Since the 60's while all non-union workers have begun paying more into healthcare and pensions have been giving way to 401k and other employee owner retirement plans, the unions have chosen to hold firm on the old way of doing things. Instead of suffering slowly over time like the rest of us, the auto workers resisted the trend. Because of this, now instead of the steady slope they have a cliff. A HUGE drop in numbers, payroll, pension, and other bene's all at once.

Keep in mind though, this has happened to steel workers (I would put some of the best days at the bethlehem plant in Lackawana NY against the worst day for an employee at a UAW plant any day, those guys worked themselves frequently to death and got the shaft), textile workers, furniture, , the list goes on and on yet these guys never got the press.

Dont get me wrong, it sucks. However, the auto industry employees are subject to the same rules as the rest of us. This is just part of the way things work.

As someone who has spent 9 years (out of 29) at home after graduating High School I can sympathize (been engaged 4 times and never married).Physical fitness is an individual's responsibility.If you want to stay fit you can (stay fit).

It's kinda hard to stay fit when you spend eight hours a day operating a truck, and go to bed dead tired from the daily stresses of driving, and that's after consuming one of those restaurant "gut bombs"....Staying physically fit might be an option for an "Office rat" or a grocery store clerk, but truck driving, much like being a mechanic, is one sure-fire way to ruin your health.

Sorry, Freddie.... don't knock if you haven't tried it.

I am a mechanic and I run 2 miles in 16 minutes or less (despite a bad knee )plus I can run 4 miles in 34 minutes so I'm not preaching something I don't practice (and that's coming from a 14 &1/2 month deployment with 14 hour days).

Your correct in warning these people of the hardships of over road truck driving TallPaul your correct in telling them to go to a truck stop and listen to the drivers as to how hard it is to get from point A to point B Watch as they try to stretch twist and turn their body parts ,trying to find some comfort to the aches and pains brought on by driving a truck Then look at some of the social miss-fits that drive those trucks down the road and have an understanding that they would be thought of as the same Then smell what how their body might smell after a couple of days without a shower Sometimes your own body odor is more than you can stand But you don't have the time or the truck stop you've stopped at has a showers that's clean enough to suite you or available to you when you have the time It's hard to tell yourself OK tomorrow for sure shave and shower

To you Fred G. your 29 year old young en You probably never had to stay up 24 hours straight or 36 or 48 working You and your Physical fit attitude about others is so wrong There's no Gym out here on the road Driving a truck for a living is a very demanding job I'm sorry I get a picture who's never had a long work day But what I've so often seen in life is the over built body comes with a weak mind or a personalty that thinks It's all about Me I invite you to go to that truck stop and see what it's all about What the working class have to do every day To keep a roof over their family's head

With 30+ years on the road I know what your trying to tall them about Mind you I've chosen to drive mostly jobs that I can be home almost every day ,sleeping in my own bed and shower at home every day But I haven't forgot what it's like out there and every now and then I have to go back out there for days on end

So anyone that might be reading this think long and hard before you try truck driving The money just is not what they are telling you You ask why have I stayed out here so long ? For over 13+years I delivered grocery's At the end of the day you can be proud you helped feed part of the world Now I'm delivering auto parts to the auto industry I'm keeping several thousand busy building cars

I gather by your views, that you were Union and lost your job.

It is pretty telling when you go into a domestic car dealership and they tell you that you will need to buy another car in three years because this one will fall apart.  That happened on many occasions at many different dealerships across the country.  Never have I been told that at a foreign dealership.  While GM went down 35-40% in sales this past year, Subaru went up 6%.  What is that saying?

wrong, I work for a dealership and many people are boycotting Gov't. Motors.

I bought a new Dodge 4 years ago and it still runs great.

the thinker is definitely not a fitting name for you!

The cars you speak of have mostly foreign made components and parts, especially the electrical! So tell me again about foreign built cars! Have you ever thought that these parts were designed to fail and undermine America's ability to manufacture.

Although I have purchase foreign cars in the past, I have American truck and cars far older that the Jap cars, and they still run very well. I really believe good maintenance is the key to the life of any car! Additionally me and my wife have both experienced our share of expensive and complicated repairs to our foreign built autos.

Three years ago we purchased a Chevy Impala for our daughter and two years ago we purchased a Buick Lucerne, both vehicles have been more excellent performers with no trouble. Four months ago we purchased a Toyota Avalon and have had it back at the dealership twice for repairs. One of them included adjusting the trunk so it would close properly without having to slam it, the other is a continued clicking in the rear speakers for no apparent reason. Before that we had a Mazda 6, a 626 and a Protege, all of which gave us problems and no we are not exclusive to the situation. My GMC and Ford truck are outstanding and other than changing brakes they have been trouble free.

We don't abuse our vehicles and our kids don't drive them.

Ironically I owned a late model Chevy Z-28 before they stopped manufacturing them and it got 28 miles a gallon on the highway with a 5.7liter V-8 engine with 350 horsepower and my wife's Mazda 626 with a V-6 only got 26 miles a gallon on the highway and could not pull our boat, yet the Z-28 could do it with absolute ease. Also, when we loaded up the 626 with family it used even more gas. My Z-28 cost $2k less than the Mazda.

Most people here could care less about hearing something good about cars made by our companies.

My wife drives a 10 year old Chevy Monte Carlo Z34, it has never (and I mean never) broke down. I drive a 2005 Chevy 1500 silverado crewcab, also has never been in the shop. I have stated many times before in these blogspots....the guy who lives next door to me, he works for Toyota in Texas (building Tundra), and he purchased a new 2009 Chevy Silverado......what does that tell you about his loyalty to Toyota? It shows that our companies (Chevy, Ford, Dodge) make better and more reliable vehicles.

I own an 18 year old Ford Ranger and it runs like a top (182,000 miles).I also own a 400 horse '68 Chevy (it runs like a raped ape when it's not being a "diva" at 53,000 miles).You haven't lived until you've gotten a 40 year old 4000 lb. car sideways at 60 mph (hitting second without letting off on a wet street).

Love the post, that is what I am talking about!!

I have a 12 year old (bought it new, 1997) Chrysler Sebring Convt. 125,000 miles. Have no plans of getting rid of it!!

I have a '98 winstar van. 27 mpg, 125000 miles.

"Greed is Good" (from Wall Street) became the mantra of the yuppies in the 80's. Our corporate suits quit planning for long term progress and started thinking about instant gratification.

Boo Hoo you poor stupid basterd, now maybe you can start living like a working class american, wondering what bills are going to be payed on time this month and which ones are going to be late. so you have to sell your harley or your bass boat. $20-$25/hour and you really think an uneducated idiot is worth that? just to stand in one place all day and put parts on cars. yes it may get hot where you work but they're can't be any serious dangers because OHSA would not allow that, they would make the manufacture spend millions of dollars to ensure your safety. go out and find yourself a real job and try to make ends meet instead of drawing your unemployment that the rest of us poor working stiffs are paying. those $10-$16/hour jobs are the ones that some people that really want a job would love to have.

You can't feed a family off $10 to $16 an hour, weiner. It seems to me that so many people who think that working people shouldn't make more than that a) have never made anywhere near that little themselves and therefore don't have a clue as to what it takes to live like that, and b) don't have kids. The whole debate seems to be over what one person should reasonably have to live on (although we don't want to mention that the CEO's are skimming off 500 times as much and that the average Wall Street worker makes $236 an hour.)

So what are the kids of America supposed to live on? Sounds like many of you have the same attitude as that Missouri legislator - "Hunger is a great motivator." If it were, sub-Saharan Africa would be the productivity capital of the planet. The US has the most productive workers in the world, but we're nowhere near the best paid. Until we reform the huge wage gap that has developed between the CEO's/financial sector and the rest of us, we're going to starve.

weinerdog1965 as clueless as you are, you definitely shouldn't be calling anyone stupid. Obviously you never worked in an auto manufacturing plant. Obviously you weren't smart enough or qualified to do it. And to all the other idiots out there, it has nothing to do with wanting a job, but reality says the price of everything is going up, except the pay for what we do. I would shovel crap if it paid enough! As long as it allows me to handle my bills and sustain my families needs, which include education and insurance, I would do most anything, but it's hard to pay auto insurance, rent or mortgage, homeowners and flood insurance, medical insurance, food and clothes on $10-16 dollars an hour. Don't even think about saving money, getting sick or vehicle repairs. How about natural disasters? Insurance companies are very reluctant to pay and seem to have an awful lot of loopholes for not doing so! Co-pays on medical insurance nearly negate having any medical insurance. Just look at what happens when you can't pay the deductable or co-pays, even with prescriptions. Can't be treated without the medicine if you have infections can you? Swine flu or pneumonia anyone?

Obviously weinerdog1965 doesn't know where his spellchecker is either.

Word to the wise: Nothing will make you look dumber than misspelling common words on a public Blog.

There are no unions down on the farm Jim. I know what hard work is.

There are no unions down on the farm Jim. I know what hard work is.

Yeah on the farm there are usually illegal workers or migrants who get paid less than minimum wage. Good example there Davek of the kind of bull@!$%# you republicans scum are trying to sell the middle class.

Unions were established for a reason: Capitalism will always pay the lowest it possibly can and skimp on any sort of safety or benefits. Without unions we would all still be working for 1/hour along with our wife and kids to earn the priviledge of sleeping in a cot in the corner and gruel for meals.

Amen AzJim. Happy 4th to all (first time home since '05 for me) and God Bless America!

There are no union's on the farm because you people hire too many illegal alien's who are too scared to stand up to you and report you for violating basic human rights.

Capitalism creates competition. Unions artificailly drive up wages on those who do not have better than an 8th grade education and no matter how poorly they perform, they will nt get fired.

I agree with you completely. Union greed and unrealistic expectations about how much someone with a high school degree should be paid for a job that took two weeks to learn how to do, is what upended the autho industry. And while we should be proud of the american work force, it is actually the unfettered inovators and inventors that got this country where it is today. But don't count on that in the future. For every inventor and inovator, there are now ten lawyers waiting to sue them.

What kind of cars are in your driveways?

Unless it is a GM, Chrysler or Ford - Go @!$%# yourself!

Consumers brought down the American auto industry.

Union labor making subpar overpriced products that had to be constantly brought back in for repairs brought down the American auto industry. There's a reason the lemon law exists.

Add to that the coming amnesty ("immigration reform") being pushed on us by a government (both democrat and republlican) which has betrayed us in favor of foreign nationals.

And don't forget, La Raza is demanding the illegal aliens be included in the coming national health care system. That will insure millions more illegal aliens sneaking across the border.

The end result is that the American people will no longer have a credible middle class, nor access to the American dream. The taxpayer is liable for the trillions of dollars of debt we find ourselves in, so whatever the earning median becomes it will be lowered still more by higher taxes.

And I am wondering if that isn't the reason for all the above: to permanently lower expectations of being able to earn a viable living for most Americans, and force us into living situations similiar to those of third world countries.

Another means to accomplish this is to dumb down public education, and this has already been accomplished in most areas.

Our only recourse, if there is one, is to demand our represetatpves begin to represent us and stop ignoring the people who elected them.

This is correct. Anyone with a high school education knows that one of the primary goals of Socialism is the destruction of the middle-class. Just ask Mexico.

OR just ask Norway.

Capitalism needs rules. You can call that socialism if you like. If they hadn't dropped the rules because whiney cry-baby companies hired lobbiests to fast talk our stupid, gullable polititians into removing rules, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in.

Viet Vet

Good post! I just wonder now what the unions are thinking about Obama, they were force fed a lot of garbage about how he would support the working class and turned around and took a big dump on them. You make a valid point about the guys in their 50' of whom I am one. I have been working since I was fifteen, starting in the hayfields and farming until I was 17 and went to the army. When I got out I went to work at the same factory that my dad and grandfather worked and five years later, the plant closed. I went to school on the GI bill got another job and the plant closed. I finally got hired part time at the post office and 21 years later, I am looking at possibly losing my job again, because not of the union, but of mismanagement at the top. The postmaster general has no problem telling congress how we are bankrupt and he cannot keep us afloat because of the unions and needs to take a day of delievery away from the country and at the same time, takes a $800,000 bonus this year, along with giving the postmasters and supervisors pay for performance bonuses for the work that the carriers and mail handlers do. My 401k that is supposed to take care of me and my wife in a few more years was gutted by wallstreet and now is worthless. I tried to get a second job about 10 years ago working nights and guess what, they want younger workers. They don't openly say that, but when you look at the work force there are maybe 2% of the workforce that are my age. If we shut down as I suspect in about five years as I and a lot of my coworkers suspect, I will really have fun trying to get a job. Maybe I can be a door greeter at Walmarts. Welcome to Walmarts, get your crap and get out. Oh, by the way, have a nice day!

It is not the union worker who tanked this economy, it was the entire banking industry who made massive profits gambling on the housing market.

I agree with you that the banking industry has had some very unscrupulous practices, but I fail to follow how they are the ones that forced the CEOs of the auto industry to get mega-buck bonuses for driving the auto industry under. The decisions made at the top have been wrong for many years and it has finally reached a breaking point. I know this has been going on for nearly 20 years in GM - this is no overnight revelation.

You need to read the news. Remember Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac? THe Libs who wanted so badly to give away bad loans?

Thank you Viet Vet for your service and for your post here. I'm the proud spouse of a Viet Vet and know you folks did not and do not get due respect for your service.

Yes, I am/was union. Yes, I worked (past tense) for GM, and please read that with the emphasis on WORK because I did, and with only the same percentage of slugs as I've seen at any other job I've had anywhere else, (and there were some as I started at GM at age 30) so did my co-workers regardless of job assignment. They were some of the hardest working people I've ever met. I say were because our plant is one that was sacrificed to the Re-Invention plan.

How dare you people generalize based on mis-information from the media who often look for what will present the best story rather than the real story. They love to find 'that guy' or 'that gal' who will portray us at our worst. (or best for their goals-that of great ratings)

I was a woman in skilled trades. I'm now a journeyman die maker. I completed my apprenticeship taking college level courses with other college students rather than vocational school courses while holding my primary job as wife and mom to a little boy. Oh and even did the final nearly year of that apprenticeship while pregnant for my youngest son. When I developed blood pressure issues that prompted me to pass out when I stood up, they got me a stool to sit on so I could keep running a big machine and would only have to stand when I had to do job change overs. But the job kept running. The plant doctor overruled my doc and refused to approve my going out on sick leave early so I didn't hurt myself or my baby. I'm not looking for sympathy, just presenting a different side.

OSHA protects union workers? Hmm from? I watched fingers get cut off, bodies get cut or burned, or crushed or hurt by repetative motion. I've seen the bones of my wrist after having a door panel shift and guillotine it and just happen to hit between the top of my glove and the bottom of my sleeve. I've been shish-ka-bobbed by a piece of scrap while clearing a jam up in a stamping press when the expendable tool I was using (no we're not stupid enough to stick our hand in there directly) and a piece of the scrap sprang out of the tangle, flew up in the air and came down pointed end first piercing my glove, and right through my index finger. It hurt worse coming out.

I use inhalers now because I couldn't get my bosses to send me to respirator class to get certified acceptably for their insurance risks and had to breath in those supposedly safe drawing compounds and oils that we sprayed onto the parts we made for 8 or more hours every shift.

My shoulders are ruined from lifting safety blocks to put in the presses before I climbed in there to fix whatever broke during production runs and my knees hurt with every flight of stairs from kneeling on those big die shoes for nearly 20 years. Ergonomics doesn't really apply to skilled trades.

Again, not whining, just a different point of view.

Production Techs. You know those people you claim are lazy and uneducated and not worth their wages? Maybe years ago, but these folks are expected to do a whole lot more than just rack parts or put fenders on. They operate machinery both to assist with lifting those parts for their entire shift and to do tolerance checks, safety inspections, attend meetings with plant staff about quality issues, cost concerns, and other things and report out to their work teams. Some are required to faciliate meetings with both hourly and salary groups. They were constantly required to take additional training to perform more technical tasks. They were presumably empowered to make decisions, but generally those decisions would be over-ruled by management if it would mean the boss wouldn't get the numbers expected by their boss, in effect removing any empowerment. Countless times they or I would declare a part not acceptable only to have the production supervisor tell us to ship it anyway.

A good share of these folks have at least some college education, many have degrees. An even higher percentage of trades people held degrees. Even more worked second jobs, or worked every possible bit of overtime, choosing to sacrifice family or free time so that they could afford those 'extras' (boats, Harley's, cottages) so many of you declare we don't deserve to have simply because we're union factory rats. Despite what you have heard, our wages alone generally won't allow for all of those extras. And no one on the plant floor that I know makes 100,000.00 a year without doing all possible overtime and even then, it's not likely.

Yes, it was a choice I made nearly 20 years ago to leave my office job as a collector for a finance company and nearly triple my wages, get health care insurance for my family and the promise of a pension so I could possibly be 'okay' when I'm old and tired. It was the promise of possibly being able to afford a home of my own rather than hand over a bunch of money for rent. Of just maybe being able to afford an actual vacation other than to sponge off of a relative somewhere. To me, it wasn't a choice. I had to do that for my family. To hopefully make life (and bills) less of a struggle. I guess I should apologize for making a 'greedy' choice. Don't hold your breath waiting for that.

Yes, I could very well have had a happier 18 years somewhere else. Perhaps I wouldn't have missed my sons' growing up because I would have been on day shift rather than afternoon/evenings and been able to go to soccer games and school programs and read bedtime stories and tuck them in. But we'd probably still be at the mercy of lousy landlords because we couldn't afford our own home, (or save up any kind of down-payment) most likely wouldn't be in as good a school district as we are and I know I wouldn't have been able to help my son with college costs. I'm sure the fact that I most likely won't be able to help my younger son will please some of you greatly as it's just what I deserve right?

I did my best to use those 'extras' I was afforded to better myself. After more than 10 years I was able to obtain an appointment to a trainer position which gave me the opportunity to get more training myself. I saw that management will only abide by OSHA standards because they have to, not because it's the right thing to do. I saw how they fought them even though it was OSHA required. I'm qualified by GM standards to train other people in any health and safety course GM offered (fork truck safety, aerial lifts, mobile cranes, asbestos clean up, blood borne pathogens) as well as development and delivery of soft skills or leadership courses (facilitation skills, team building, conflict management etc.) I put in so much 'casual overtime' to prepare for classes that were supposed to be 8 hours long each day that I could probably not work for some time if I got paid for them. I put in hours at home making sure that I knew the material well enough to feel confident sharing it with people, knowing that if I told them wrong, especially in a safety course, it could mean life and death. I worked through breaks and lunches because that's when students needed more individual attention or had extra questions. I was not the exception, there were many others doing the same thing. But you've declared me lazy and because I don't have a college degree just life experience, I'm still not worthy by your standards, to support my family at anything but survival levels. Unlike the 'student' or recent college grads who were hired to be my boss in tool and die and thought they knew it all because they had read books about it and had that pretty little sheepskin SAYING they knew it all.

Who are you to decide what is right for me and my family? Who are you to decide what a person is worth or has the right to make for a living? Who are you to decide how hard I work. Who are you to say that because I had grease under my unmanicured fingernails and in my hair and on my jeans or coveralls and wore steel toe boots that I'm not worthy to make more than a pittance?

Oh I'll find another job. I've made the decision to stop waiting in limbo for GM to present an opportunity for me to uproot my family and transfer somewhere only to pray I don't have to go through this again, and to take what control of my world I can back from them. (that's something else you choose to give up when you hire in there) As my 23 year old son told me, "Mom, you've always done what you had to to make us okay, you'll figure it out this time too" And no, I don't expect to make what I was making at GM. I'm just hoping that there is someone left out there who is open minded enough to see beyond whatever has jaded you folks and give me a chance. They'll get a dedicated, loyal, hard-working employee who will go the extra mile to make sure she succeeds at what she sets out to do, because she has the eyes of her family and her God to look into, wants them (and herself) to be proud, and she doesn't ever want to flinch or make excuses.

My suggestion to you people? Walk a mile in someone's shoes before you decide how they or their lives are. And worry about how you'll support yourself and your loved ones rather than concerning yourself with how I do it or how much I decide is enough for me and mine.

This is not the 'adjustment of the middle class' This is not a 'correction' This is the death of the middle class. God help us all, even if we don't aknowledge His value anymore either.

The downfall of GM was not due to mega-buck bonuses that were given to executives. The driving force behind GM's bankruptcy, was in fact fueled by their financing arm, GMAC. Being closely connected to the retail end of the automobile business and a former general manager of 2 GM stores, I witnessed first hand that unlike their big 3 brothers, (Ford and Chrysler) the financing entity GMAC took a turn from being a captive finance source (a manufacturers finance source for their own product) to delving in the then lucrative mortgage business. Ford Motor however stayed the course and relied on their finance arm (Ford Motor Credit) to do what it was intended to do, put they product on the streets. Finding that the mortgage business seemed like a "better bet", GMAC pulled away from doing what it was designed to do, PUT PRODUCT ON THE STREET. When the housing bubble burst, GM had to shore up the losses of GMAC, which left it cash strapped. With the recession taking over and people not buying cars as they were, GM found itself facing huge losses without adequatereserves. With "easy money" to be had from the Government (our tax dollars) GM did what ALL of the banks and financial institutions were doing, looking to the Administration to help (bail) them out. The Administration did give loans to GM and Chrysler, (Ford passed on the initial offering not needing the loan, mmm wonder why?, see above) but the loans came with a price. Restructure your companies (in a very short time) and create a new business plan acceptable to the Administration, "or else". And oh by the way, since you took our money, we have decided to fire your CEO. Now, GM is in the same situation it would have been prior to receiving the money from the Government, in bankruptcy. The only difference is that they have lost a portion of the company to the Administration and it's "Car Czars" . (Interesting title "Car Czar", for people who do not have the slightest knowledge of the automobile business). Now we have the Government dictating what type of cars that can be manufactured by the once private sector. Chrysler's situation on the other hand, was murky ever since it's failed merger with Damlier-Benz. Benz should have known better than to try to turn around Chrysler, who outside of a couple of neat little niche cars lately, hadn't had a fresh idea since the mini van. (Chrysler has had organizational and financial problems for more than a couple of decades now.) All Damlier-Benz accomplished was having to spend the better part of the last decade trying to restore it's once storied image.

No sir, I personally do not think that it was executive salaries which led to the demise of the "Big Three".

It pains me to think of who will be next. (?)

I used to be there with you. I, too, worked flat rate as a technician repairing the junk that was assembled elsewhere. It really astounded me with the corporate attitude - inspect for quality. All this time I thought you designed in quality, you checked for compliance.

I hear you, TD ELM. I did that very same thing for 40 years. What have I got to show for it? 40 years of experience and training, $53,000 in tools (useless, now), a kink in my neck, and an ache in my back and hands, that will never go away.

Fortunately I managed to get into a fleet service job that provided me with a small, steady paycheck and retirement, before it was too late.

I agree on one point, "The fact that they are all going to have to work and live like the rest of the working class and actually get paid what they are worth is what should have happened long ago!"

Some of them would be working for free if they actually got what they're worth.

That is counter to what unions were designed to do. They are ALL out for themselves. Not even for the workers they claim to represent.

Yuck Fourself

Unions did far more for this country than you ever will.

You bet your A$$ we did, and still do so that people like Mike can continue to blame us for doing so much wrong. Hey Mike, the next time you get hurt don't ask the Dept of Labor for assistance when your compnay wants you to go back to work even though you can barely stand, when they firw you for not going to work, don't ask the Dept of Labor for help when you suit them for wrongful termination because you are an injured worker. Oh, I almost forgot, Don't ask the Dept of labor for help because the company will not pay you for lost time and wages while you recover.

All of these things are made possible because of UNION'S! I am proud to be a union member, and a Labor advocate

Hey Mike,

Thanks for leaving out the math this time. Good to distill your feelings down to the essence.

Yeah, you need the exercise.

At $12/hr they're not the working poor. The "working poor" live in Mexico, and make $2.80/hr. That's where our jobs are going....

One day, a lot of you are going to wake up, and there will be no jobs, here. You won't be able to get a waitress to bring you coffee, the paper won't be delivered, and your car sitting in the driveway, won't run, because there's nobody left who knows how to fix it. Globalization, my friend, Globalization....

America, the World's Largest Third World Country

People CAN'T pay more because 20 years of reagonomics have stripped them of purchasing power. I think they WOULD pay more to keep jobs here, if they had anything left at the end of the day.

Stu: "People CAN'T pay more because 20 years of reagonomics have stripped them of purchasing power".

Really Stu? Do you even know what "Reganomics" was besides a liberal buzz phrase. Seems to me we've had a Democratic president in there somewhere. Remember the funny little guy from Texas named Perot who said the sucking sound would be American jobs leaving the country after NAFTA was signed BY BILL CLINTON and supported by both parties. I suggest some retraining for you. Take an economics class to understand what is happening in our economy and why. A refresher course in history wouldn't hurt either.

You mean the NAFTA bill that George Bush Sr drafted?

I know far too much about reaganomics unfortunately, because of the long term destruction it has caused on all sectors of the economy. I have taken plenty of economics classes and none of your right wing let business trod on whomever it wants will ever get greedy businesses to pay a fair wage and create jobs. Why don't you take a few logic and reasoning classes you might understand why you phail horribly at pinning the tail on the donkey.