Article Source: msnbc.com
from:msnbc.comOut-of-state students, who pay a huge tuition premium to attend, are doing something no one ever thought they would: They're staying home.
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East - West Divide
States in the east have many more universities (particularly State universities - Ohio has 13, PA has 14, etc.) and yet many of these states are losing population to the south and west.
If students start staying in their home states for college, this may disproportionally hurt these eastern states.
As already stated; FEWER. Eeesh. If you can count them, it's fewer. If you can't, it's less.
College conundrum: FEWER out-of-state students
Sorry, meant to put it in the below thread. :D
This article rightly points out the loss of funds, but also the loss of diversity in the student body. Both translate into educational deficit.
What really bother me about this article is the title "Less out of State Students." Less?????????? How about some decent English? Where did the title writer go to college?
LOL - probably the product of 'team' projects in college. Don't get me started!
Amen! I was about to comment on the same thing! I am seeing the less/fewer mistake over and over again in print media and commercial television. We are a nation of idiots.
Yes! I was going to say the same thing - this headline drives me crazy! C'mon, a newswriter should have some grasp of basic grammar.
I agree. This type of horrible grammar is hardly acceptable for a journalist.
I agree about the grammar less vs. fewer. On the other hand, old-time headline writers had to make it fit in the space, and try to make it convey the content - a tough mix. I always cut them a brake for that.
A brake?? You mean a break! Not sure you should be the arbitor of language.
Mary, I think you mean "arbiter".
I received my degree in accounting from a state university back in 1980 when a college graduate was expected to know how to read and write.
Diversity, shmersity. Please call it by it's real name, "Affirmative Action". And I'm sure this writer actually did graduate from a very "prestigious" journalism school with high (inflated) grades.
One segment the article completely ignored is the illegals who are allowed to attend college in some states and pay in-state tuition no matter what. If an American student has to pay out-of-state, then surely the others should, too.
Nor does the article address those students who qualify to get in but whose parents have been caught in this country's 8.9% unemployment rate and who haven't been down and out long enough for the student to qualify for full financial aid.
Many college professors do not earn boatloads of money - there is a tiered pay system, just like in businesses that have 'grade pay' levels. People would be shocked to find out how little some professors are paid when they first join their universities.
If parents have a financial down-turn after their FAFSA has been submitted, they can contact the college financial aid office and update their forms or apply for hardship waivers.
I wonder if my children can qualify for in-state tuition in Mexico?
Colleges will need to adapt to more than just the economy. The demographics are changing: This year was the peak for the number of applicants from the "Echo Generation". From here on out, fewer people will be applying at all.
Fewer NOT Less. I can't believe this is an article about universities and the writer, or at least the headline writer, doesn't know the difference between "fewer" and "less."
I must agree with those who are upset with the grammar in the headline. Less??? Less...students?
Does the author of this article also proofread the messages that scroll across the bottom of the MSNBC screen?
I am increasingly concerned with the butchering of the English language. Any one of my students could have told you that "less out-of-state students" should have been "fewer out-of-state students." You might put less butter on your pancakes, but you would not use less to talk about numbers. Please...................
In terms of explanatory power, this post gets closest, but it still doesn't pin things down. What we need to refer to are countable and uncountable nouns. Countable nouns (pancakes) take the adjective 'fewer'. Uncountable nouns (butter) take the adjective 'less'. It's what we teach learners of English as a second language.
Don't the headline writers go to college? "Less"??? Ridiculous!
Yes, the correct word is fewer. On a broader level, I am appalled at the current lack of correct grammar in most news stories today, in print, on air and online. My current issue is the almost ubiquitous use of dangling modifiers, presumably to save space and air time, i.e. "Found in a culvert, the police said the girl...." The police were not found in a culvert, which is what this sentence incorrectly states.
It's been said before but I'll say it again.
FEWER!!
(Unless the numbers haven't changed but the students have just lost weight.)
Apparently Newsweek can afford fewer editors these days.
I am so happy, to have been able, to view, the above, debate.
I see you love commas so much that you use them even when they aren't needed.
In-state students deserve the slots. If a state sponsored university is turning away qualified state residents, the university's administration deserves to be called to explain to the taxpayers why their children are being denied this opportunity. The taxpayers also need to demand to know why international students are displacing in-state students.
Your point leads me to raise the issue of business globalization. In the commercial world, doing business with Mexico, Guatemala, Argentina, the Congo, India, Pakistan, China, Thailand, and many other nations in order to find the cheapest sources for goods for which we consumers seem to have an addictive need is so widely accepted a practice that to question its validity is to show oneself as an economic moron.
While the business model is not quite the same, educational institutions globalize by seeking out-of-state and international students because the profit margins are higher. Even if schools are tax supported, by enrolling more non-resident students, the amount of state tax support would diminish as the measurable profits increase. The only thing that keeps them from doing this is having to cope with public sensibilities about the practice.
From the non-resident student's point of view, however, why should he have to spend $23,000 for what a resident student pays only $5,000? Is the non-resident student such a dunce that educating him will take nearly five times the effort and cost? If education is a commodity, why should artificial barriers to obtaining it from the schools best able to provide it be erected in this fashion? Schools are being less that honest when they maintain such an approach.
What would really help education in general would be if schools would decide to get out of the park management and catering businesses. Aside from paying teachers' salaries, the next biggest expense is paying for the ivy covered halls, the mowing of the expansive lawns, the feeding programs, and the like. Supposedly the bifurcation of expense categories is made transparent when the costs of schooling are listed under the headings of tuition and room & board. Unfortunately, the tuition component of the list of expenses covers not only the salaries of teachers but the costs of faculty offices, sabbaticals, faculty cafeterias, etc.
This model of education is not universal. If one were to go to Italy, for instance, finding places to eat and to sleep is left to the resourcefulness of the student, who typically must find accommodations near the university he attends or simply live at home where he can utilize the bank of Mom and Dad. Being able to stroll across a lush sea of greenery on the way to class does not enhance one's performance in the classroom. Rumor has it that frequent and thorough use of the library coupled with regular class attendance in a state of complete wakefulness plus extended periods of study unaccompanied by television, radio, and Twitter drivel can produce remarkable academic results with or without the grass and trees.
Your headline should read, "...FEWER out-of-state students." The headline writer for this piece is obviously another college conundrum.
Amen.
I agree totally!! What kind of "journalist" doesn't know the difference between "less" and "fewer"!! Do I have less coffee (amount) in my cup, or fewer (numbers) in my cup? Geez...Remember when editors "edited?"
i assume we all know that someone at newsvine monitors these comments. i assume further that newsvine is a subsidiary of msnbc.
i have commented repeatedly about the issues of poor journalism and worse writing on msnbc, although, to be fair, it's no better on cnn. not once has there been any reaction whatsoever from the invisible big brother.
the conclusion is inescapable. you (we) 're pissing into the wind. they just don't care. but you can bet that what i said we were doing into the wind will show up as asterisks.
I agree. It should be "fewer" students, not "less." Schools that accept students from out of state that use "less" rather than "fewer" are dealing with "lesser" out of state students.
Writer, proofreader, editor....... pathetic!
Declining enrollment, indeed. See to the important things, first.
Fewer/Lesser. Use care here we, all know nuclears wars have been started for less inportants, issues, than this.
After, we have resolved that issue, perhaps, we can addrese the meglomania, that, causes colleges to reach for diversity and various other, things that are responsible for the rise in tution and other expenses, with no regard for getting an education.
Colleges and universities have interjected their own particular beliefs, into education, causing a increase in the price of a college education, that has no value, in the real world.
I hired engineering people, I came to prefer the ones, with a two year degree, where, the instructor was from the business world.
Yes, "fewer," "less," and on and on. It's right up there with: "Each editor has their own standards. Each must ask themselves to what degree will they change headlines or let them pass." I must say that these kinds of headlines are great for the language arts class I teach. I just put them up on the board and the students have a field day. Thanks, MSNBC. And if you need better editors than those you have now, I know several fifth graders who could do the job.
With the decrease in the percentage of money colleges and universities receive from state governments - it does not make sense to subsidize in-state tuition for local students.
It may be pedantic, but I will not even consider reading the story until the headline is corrected to read "fewer" rather than "less." Peace out.
Wow, more people were worried about the grammer of the author than the actual story. America, the land of whiney b!tchers.
Jeff --
Professional writers are supposed to know the language that they use in their communications. Evidently, MSNBC feels there is no need for proof-reading and that implies they are not very interested in having high standards for their stories. They call themselves a news source, yet post material that contains errors that a middle school student should be able to avoid.
There's nothing "whine" or "bitchy" about being concerned. Grammatical rules create consistency in communication, and consistency is an aid to clarity.
AAAUUUGHH!!!!
There is LESS money because they have FEWER students. As a print journalist with an English degree, this headline gave me the screamin' meemies!!!
As a college professor, I thought the same thing. In a news story about education, let's get that correct.
well, at least no one wasted any time discussing the article.............
It's an article about education, and it has a glaring basic grammatical error in the headline. Who can take seriously anything in it? The quality of the news source that created it is revealed as ignorant and sloppy.
I don't think many people consider it a glaring mistake. The message was still obvious and clear and at lest I think that is the important thing. But I'm just a native speaker what do I know.
Dear God! Who is MSNBC hiring? Are they running an ESL program or getting their writers out of elementary schools? How can anyone be hired to write who doesn't know when to use "less" and when to use "fewer?"