Broke!

We have been told for decades wall street, banking, etc. was the "new economy". I see smoke coming out our backsides.

Stocks finish strong on relief over retail sales

A 106 point gain is not Strong as the headline claims. Besides it will drop tommorow more than likely

Hey Realtor1-860813

Yet another whiney real estate sales guy. Obama has been in office for 16 days. Look what he has inherited. I suppose you’d expect him to get everything done in what a day. Foreclosures are selling…..,homeowners have gotten the shaft from realtors for years.

Ahhh the greedos on wall street feasting on the bones of the economy before it is completely dead. Hope they enjoy their extra dividends. Maybe they will donate some to the hunger shelters the unemployed will be using soon.

Less than 3% gain is "soaring"?! Talk about massaging the news for positive spin, stocks "soared" back to where they were around Tuesday.

Yep the rats on Wall Street have been given a chunk of cheese so they're back in the market in hopes of recouping losses before they get out again. Well you about to have to get out again Wall Street because your unwilling to take the hit. Hit you will be eventually as you lag over the slow pace of the economy towards the end of 2011.

America is fed up and you boys on Wall Street can't seem to get that message relayed to you thick freggin skulls. All your education, masters degrees, economic forcasting and brilliance will still be your downfall. We know how to get to you now. We know where your next meal comes from. So here we go again, play the game and watch us take your money one more time. Watch.

The Stock market was over rated, the present level of 7800 to 8400 is about where it should be. That said: the market was driven up by greed, by corporations, bad estimates on what their profits would be to drive up the stocks ( estimates I believe where done with malicious intent) Speculation by greedy people.Investment houses drove up the oil, that drove down the market, ( I will stay away from the political parts) but bottom line GREED, housing market collapsed for no other reason then corporate greed to make a quick buck, then selling off the accounts and taking their profits and running. Overboard consumer spending with them personalised cute credit cards that the banks where just handing out and making a killing on the interest rates. BUT, GREED WAS THE KEY FACTOR TO ALL OF THIS. JUST PLAINGOOD OLE AMERICAN PERSONAL AND COORPORATE GREED .

Let's not forget that when the stock market doesn't like the plan it probably means its good for the rest of us - not just for rich guys and banks!

Funny, when Bush was in office he caused the stock market to drop. Now it is the "government". The media uses every trick in the book to cover for Obama.

Greedy bastards that caused this mess

don't give a damn about America. They've

gotten theirs and will just sit back and

watch everyone else rot. To hell with 'em.

Hey economics101:

You're probably right about the fact if the market doesn't like it,

it's probably good for the rest of us. Excellent Point !!!!!

Personally if I had any money I'd buy now because I'm a true

Patriot and believe in the future of America !

Now the time to get in.

Obama has been in office for 16 days. Look what he has inherited. I suppose you’d expect him to get everything done in what a day

no one expects it to be fixed in a day. However, the market reacted to something that the Obama administration did in response to the problem. it doesn't matter if he inherited it. he is the one trying to fix it now and now that he is pres he can be blamed for things like this. how long of a pass are you going to give him? the markets have been steady for a while...likely waiting to see what Obama was going to do. They are starting to see it and are reacting. They did not drop stocks because of something bush did. this is all obama's plan and these are the repercussions of it.

So, your saying that if Bush stayed in office.. We would see a better market?

*sighs*

where did I say that? what I am saying is that the market responded to an Obama action. you can't blame bush for the events of this day which it seems like the poster did by saying Obama was only 16 days in. who cares how long he has been in. he is taking action to fix the problem and the markets responded to that problem

did the bush administration contribute to the problem. sure they did.... but they are not the ones in office now. if they were and presented this plan it would likely have had the same effect. but the makret drop today is on Obama's shoulders

Economics101 has it right. That the financial market isn't happy is a good thing-means there's enough regulation and oversight to keep that corporate greed in check. Wall Streets gains in the past decade only helped those who took the money out-most likely the same people that ran companies into the ground by laying off workers to boost the next quarterly report's profit margin and get themselves a fat bonus at the same time. It was retirement accounts, pension funds and other long-term investments in the market that had to absorb the loss.

Jojo, how long are you gonna use that excuse? 1 year, 2 years? Obama sounded like a 4 year old last night trying to deflect criticism. Is this what we want in our President? Our nation is weaker for having him in office. Oh BTW- Did he give 1 straight answere last night? Yes, the ARod question, and even that was hard to understand. This guy is an empty suit, PERIOD! He gave no clear answeres to anything AND he put left wing nut jobs IN THE FRONT ROW to ask questions. Now imagine Rush being put in the front row of a Bush presser, it would be front page news! LOL, what a joke.

One has to almost laugh at the chaos. When can we start with the "I told you so"s?

To AfricanMadman, Obama was elected to fix things, not to aggravate them. Please stop using Bush as a crutch.

Fenderfan - come on now you heard Ann Coulter say that today on the radio about Rush..

1. Rush couldn't fit into one of those chairs

2. Rushs ego would never allow him to be "just in the front row"....he'd have to be on stage.

You guys just love to bash people reguardless of who it is or what they've done.

Obama did NOT write this bill, presidents do not write law. Congress wrote the bill, debated the bill, revised the bill, and will continue to do so until a compromise is met. Then Obama gets his "input" through the veto power. It may of been his idea, and strongly backed by his supporters, but the guy doesn't sit down and write it line by line.

Also the current economy is very much Bush's fault, or more precisely the fault of his administrator and all the supporters that pulled his strings all those years.

Give Obama at least six months to start sorting this crap out, THAT is how long its going to take for any clarity to be seen. Damn you'd think you guys were all ADD or something, that or typical Americans wanting immediate gratification without being patient. I love my country, but sometimes I think we've had it too good for the past 50 years, we've forgot that good things are worth waiting for.

It is not the job of the Obama Administration to cause the stock market to rise. It is their job to solve the financial crisis. If the market responds poorly to this bailout plan, it's the stock market's problem. The reaction of the stock market is not the "almighty say" whether the bailout is good or not. In fact, it is probably a reaction to gov't involvement and oversight- they don't like that. They want to be handed over a pile of taxpayers $$$$ to spend it the way they please with no strings attached.

They're spoiled little brats.

Obama did NOT write this bill, presidents do not write law

He pushed them to do it, he is defending what is in it. and in the end he will sign it. we give presidents too much blame and credit in this country but that's the way it is. This is the Obama administration and welcome to it.

Also the current economy is very much Bush's fault, or more precisely the fault of his administrator and all the supporters that pulled his strings all those years.

There were many other factors at play and yes, bush's administration did contribute. But in today's event of the Dow dropping....who do you attribute that to? It's Obama's administration, Obama's policies that Geithner is pushing, and son on. Why do I have to give Obama 6 months? Today's announcement is the action that he is proposing to deal with the crisis. It doesn't matter how it started right now, we have to be mindful of it so the mistakes are not repeated but today it is about how we are dealing with it.

Complaining that he inherited the mess is just chilidsh. He saw the economy tanking, and he stayed in to get elected. His choice to deal with the crisis. So he has to deal with it now. and the actions of his administration today were not well received.

President Bro Obama says that Wall street is looking for an easy out on this problem and he isn't going to give it to them. Great! Now we know for sure that his "stimulus" package isn't going to do much to improve our stock savings and 401(k) plans anytime soon.

I really appreciate his "change" so far....

I'm close to retirement. Of course retirement just means I'll be to old to work where I did and will have to find another job someplace else to make ends meet. I really do think he and his staff have their heads up each other's asses when it comes time to help the American public.

Profchaos, I attribute today's uptick in the markets on the volitility we've seen for the last 4 months.

Nothing more.

In the next week or two or five it will seasaw up and down over and over.

It doesn't seem to make sense to try to read the tea leaves every day - and it does more (up or down) every day.

0.59% is an uptick, yes, but hardly anything to make a headline over.

Platinum shot up $32.00 9.6%, Gold shot up $23.00 2.5%. Less confidence in the market and in the stimulus scheme is reflected in those numbers.

It's a crap shoot, anyway!

For all of you that are "so happy" the greed and corruption is catching up to the wall street fatcats.....I hope you make enough to support your parents if they are about to retire. See, all that 401k money they counted on for their later years? You just cheered it all flying right out the window. Wall Street IS America. It's you, it's me. We all invest in it. Either directly or indirectly, and while a few bad apples have tainted the barrel, good companies are being hurt by it.

So keep cheering, you might just ruin your own retirement.

Cut your nose off to spite your face, and then laugh at the pain.

And the saddest part? The really bad ones that squandered their wealth? THEIR the ones getting handouts. Does anyone else see this as bizzaro world? Their isn't a company on this planet that should ever be considered "too big to fail".

The first sentence said it all "Investors around the world are betting....the global recession will just have to run its course". That is exactly what will happen but we will hear how this stimulus did such a wonderful job. What other country is giving away trillions of dollars for stimulus?

Fenderfan72Jojo, - how long are you gonna use that excuse? 1 year, 2 years? How about 8!!! That's how long BUSH HAD, to get it where it is!!!

Obama sounded like a 4 year old last night trying to deflect criticism. Is this what we want in our President? Better then SOUNDING AND LOOKING LIKE ONE, LIKE BUSH!!!

Our nation is weaker for having him in office. Oh BTW- Did he give 1 straight answere last night? Yes, the ARod question, and even that was hard to understand. He also tried to tell you NUMSKULLS, this is NOT a Magic PILL, much better than McLame saying "The Fundamentals of Our Economy are Strong"! GOS are we lucky he's NOT running the show.....

This guy is an empty suit, PERIOD! He gave no clear answeres to anything AND he put left wing nut jobs IN THE FRONT ROW to ask questions. Now imagine Rush being put in the front row of a Bush presser, it would be front page news! LOL, what a joke.

I listened to Boosh and Co.'s PAWNS for 8 years. You're going to listen to Obama, for at least 4!

ahhhhh, Now that that's off my chest.......

This market was WAAAAAY over priced, just like the Housing market was, everyone KNOWS THAT. It was just a matter of time. The DOW @ 11,000, 12,000???

It will settle and when things begin to "work" again.....it will also grow, but at a much slower rate, like it SHOULD.

I guess if it makes you feel Good, go ahead and Blame Obama. Maybe look at youself and your neighbor.....you might find the REAL culprits. Have Faith.

Give the man a chance, he's only just sat down in the Oval Office.

Stocks have tumbled ever since Jan.20th. Now nearly 30 days later they continue to slide. Anyone see a pattern here? What specific change did Obama promise again? Was it to let the USA slide into the abyss? Oil is less than $40bbl and gas goes up? C'mon BackTrack,do something in FAVOR of the American People. Your stimulus deal was the best yet. The same day you signed it,the market nose dived. I haven't seen such an effective president since Reagan.

Just who's name will be used to define your presidency? Obama? Clinton? Volker? Gaithner? Madoff? Its up to you dude,do something.

we've forgot that good things are worth waiting for.

Yes good things are worth waiting for and it would have been worth waitng for a good bill to deal with the problem. But NO, they had to hurry and push this piece of C--p down our throats. He!! they were still doing revisions as late as the 10th of Feb. There is no way any one of them has been able to sit down and read this thing completely let alone understand it all. This thing is going to bite America in the A$$ big time.

Well I got more but it will have to wait. Got to go feed my dog while I can still afford dog food!!

Good things? Like eating,living,warm clothes,heat,transportation,medical insurance,education,shelter?

Marine 56,you shouldn't post that info about dog food,people will start asking to borrow some!

This simply proves my point! Stimulus funds to banks that reduce lending to the common people! The banks receive our hard earned tax dollars and turn around and show Americans their tail end. Now, whose next? This thought was shared earlier but appropriate to this prank played on the American people. Why not simply divide the $787 billion among legitimate American citizens and allow us to make deposits into the American bank of our choice with no foreign deposits or sending money overseas. Let Americans purchase goods and pay mortgages and other financial requirements and in so doing, we, the people become the stimulus package for America? I guess that the banks and lending institutions along with Corporate America who are the cause of this financial crisis are far more trustworthy than the American people. Oh, well!

Just a thought, not a condemnation because what do you expect when greed fosters greed while seeking a means to line one’s own pockets as Corporate American executives and various political and social leaders have accomplished over the years. What does one expect when the Federal Government grants nearly 165,000 employment/work visas to Corporate America, which has taken place since the Clinton-era? Do the math 12 years times 165,000 work visas equals what 1,980,000 American jobs denied American citizens.

Then factor in the estimated 12 million illegal immigrants and is there any wonder why the job market in the United States, at the epicenter of the global downturn, is the worst in decades?

Now, consider how much of the overall capital paid to these individuals has been sent abroad as oppose to circulating back into the American economy. Do you expect change? Guess again, change will come in an ever-increasing decline in socioeconomic structuring intended to guise the shoring up of those having while who have not suffer even greater atrocities far beyond the mortgage crisis.

What happens when the price of a slice of bread reaches the same price it cost to ride the cattle-cars of New York City also known as subways and buses? What happens when a glass of water, which God gave freely, reaches the price of a gallon of gas? What happens when government does not simply put a moratorium on salaries but reduces the common person’s salary as proposed from the wealth?

Then there is the issue of paying for better teachers? Has anyone taken a long hard look at teacher benefits including retirements and other fringe benefits? Whatever happens to the love of children or sharing in loving compassion that which God has given to you? Greed, greed and more greed! It has nothing to do with teaching children but lining one’s pockets.

Think it will not happen? Guess again!

That same loaf of bread that costs nearly two dollars once cost less than one dollar. Cigarettes were ten cents a pack and now cost more than seven dollars. The subway with better service than today once cost 15 cents and today cost $2.50 and expected to rise again to equal express buses that cost $5.00.

Not only are mortgage prices endangering the well-being of humankind but what of the cost of a simply apartment that costs over $1,000.00 a month. What stimulus package $787 billion or otherwise can change or stem the tide of masses increases inflicted upon the poor and humble masses? Where does this $787 billion come from and who will benefit the most? Salary decline while capitalism is on the raise with political and social giants reaping the benefits at the expense of the populace. Some speak of the attempt to destroy the Unions; destroy the middle class; take the pensions and medical care from the elderly while claiming all is still on track. The question is: on whose track? Congress approved TARP to help the banks but what happens when common people have no money to put in the bank because of not having enough to daily live?

Do you still think that the job market in the United States, at the epicenter of the global downturn, is the worst in decades will ever change for the betterment of all? Are Americans that naïve or just plain stupid?

As soon as politicians realize who actually needs the money,and uses it more effectively than who it's been given to. By the time all these bailout bucks reach taxpayers,it won't be worth a nickle. Americans are at the mercy of their political leaders. We do know better,but we can't just run the political ATM to make a withdrawal. They're very good at taking our money and power. Try taking either one away and you'll find out just how much it means to them.

Personally, I hope all those crooks on Wall St. get laid off - then maybe they'll find out just what is really going on in America. They deserve everything they get for doing all they could to cheat the American public!!

I'd sure like to know how these Wall St. "experts" can pretend to know what drives the market. They're sure smug enough when they declare the market "waivers on Obama housing plan" but to assign cause and effect is ridiculous. There are far too many variables in this global economy to point at a single cause with any certainty. The "waiver" could just as well be caused by the reported run on banks in Antigua and Venezuela.

Really-if these Wall St. "experts" knew as much as they claim, they'd be sitting on their private island in the Carribean instead of working a day job.

Well River View,the experts are all highly educated people. You'd think that with such talent they could avoid the financial disaster we're currently going through. Just like the 9/11 terrorists,it is easier to bring an institution down than to do something positive or beneficial for the betterment of a nation.

Pulled out a week before the inauguration.

Stock Market is not an indication of economy. It is a lag indicator of investor confidence and securities information. So don't let the wacked out Republicans drag you into the stock market dropping...

Remember, under Bush Jr. the Dow Jones Industry Avg gone down around 25%, (I think it was near 28%). The slide is still continuing, because there isn't a bottom yet to asset valuation. These guys are yelling and hollering over a drop of around 5% since Obama took office... SECONDLY, ask yourself why the stock market goes up when the compaies layoff people??? So more layoff will stablize the stock market...HMMMM, is that what you really want to see at this point of our economy???? MORE LAYOFFS????

The right wing wackos are trying circle their wagons and shooting at anything moves. It is even more interesting that they are against direct mortgage bailout before any details were announced.

I read somewhere, GOP = Grand Obstructionist Party.

Ha! Ha! So very true! I am putting $100 on black!

I pulled out of the mrket at 13,000 when it looked like BarackO might be successful. I see that the market really likes what BarackO is doing, he has the same effect as four jetliners on 9-11. And the dems keep on lovin him???

thturd-you need help.

truthseeker, why do I need help? I like to hear myself think and talk, is that a problem for you?

SECONDLY, ask yourself why the stock market goes up when the compaies layoff people??? So more layoff will stablize the stock market...HMMMM, is that what you really want to see at this point of our economy???? MORE LAYOFFS????

It has a question mark, so I guess it's a question. I would think the answer would be obvious, but I guess not.

Labor is part of overhead. I know that sounds "cruel" and "mean", but business isn't emotional or even "human", it's business. As production goes up, that overhead is necessary, and even increases throuugh growth and hiring, in order to meet production goals. As production increases, stocks increase as a companies valuation increases (through profit). When production slides, that labor "overhead" is no longer needed and now becomes a liability digging into the "bottom line" or a companies valuation. Again, not human, just business. When this happens, the stocks begin to drop.

Layoffs are a sign of reorganization and lowering of the overhead, thus increasing valuation through cost reduction, thus raising stock value. It's an unpleasant fact, but if there is no work, there is no need for workers. Correct?

Now, how is giving a company billions of dollars going to help this? The production needs still aren't there, so what are the workers doing? Sweeping floors? Landscapinig? Or worse, making products no one is going to buy? Why not just lay them off, let them stay home and put all that money into unemployment benefits until a production need is there?

In other words.....all this money......it's a joke (other than infrastructure money that will be good for construction workers). It isn't going to do a darn thing but line peoples pockets that don't need it. Put a few billion into unemployment and let all the chips fall where they may. If a company is too far gone, let them die. If they can trim up and weather the storm, they live.

You can't keep people working if there isn't work to be done.

While fear continues to grip the world community and granted the Pope is merely a figure head having absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with sound biblical principle and precept the fact remains that there are ethics and instruction superseding the authority of the Vatican, Catholicism, Protestantism, and Islamism notwithstanding any and all other religious or spiritual beliefs failing to realize or rejecting the fact that Christianity at one point was a worldwide faith-based religion encompassing eastern and western hemispheres and that being the Power and Authority of God, the Father and Creator of us all.

Whether you are Judeo-Christian or Islamic the fact still remains that the activities of humankind leading up to and including the present situation and circumstances that no amount of bailouts will contain, curtail or eliminate as long as humanity is out of line with the Purpose of God.

To those who say there is no God and attempt to philosophically or sociologically explain the existing plight of humankind seemingly reject the fact that what is happening was foretold more than a thousand years ago.

When people like the Pope, Pelosi, and the existing democratic ruling party continue to act irresponsibly in terms of matters related to human genetics and the right to survive these individuals are not challenging you or me but have come in direct defiance against the Will of God and those who would follow after such ungodly leadership shall reap the same fate as being demonstrated worldwide as a result of worldviews being contrary to the edicts of God, who created humankind and give us freewill that we might choose life or death, to follow and commune with Him or the Devil.

Sadly, everything for the past century has rapidly moved in rejection of God replacing Him with glorification of Satan, who is the prince of the air of this world and his demonic works resulting in deterioration of human ethics, morality and spirituality; all of which having been maligned to such a degree that right has become wrong and wrong right or more specifically good evil and evil good.

With this in mind ask your respective selves one specific question: “If I were God what would I do to such a people, reward them or destroy them?” and if you have answered honestly you will know that you are not God and compelled to taste the bitter wormwood of your very own defiance remember that God loves each and every one of us but He hates, absolutely hates the sinfulness of human ways and has never turned from you, he is still Who He is and Where He is the question is where are you?

Look, the people who are going to be hurt badly by all of this are not the ones who caused the problem. The people who are decent, honest and hardworking, the people who are poor, the sick, the children, the elderly and the most vulnerable in our society are going to suffer.

None of the people who are actually responsible for the instruments of destruction, like trading in credit derivatives, will suffer even a little bit unless we take responsibility for seeking them out and prosecuting them.

If there is one abiding mystery in life, it is that God, if God exists, very often does not punish the wicked, while the innocent and law-abiding are routinely on the receiving end of a world of hurt.

It is called "faith" because you trust there is an underlying purpose when what is apparent makes no sense whatsoever. People who lack faith claim to know the mind of God, which is by definition not knowable. So get some faith.

And please don't add to personal misery by saying suffering is evidence that the victim is a sinner. The sinners are posing on their yachts in the Mediterranean.

I truly feel sorry for anyone that had alot of money in the stock market. I love roller coasters but that is one that I don't want to ride.

If only congress had approved more H-1B and L-1 visas, we would have had what we really need to compete: foreign workers with foreign bachelor's degrees.

We only have 65K H-1B visas as it currently stands ... but wait, our L-1 visa supply is unlimited. Woops, never mind ...

Yours Truly,
Bill Gates and the rest of the US High Tech Industry

JustAThought: well said about faith, and human persuation.

RushRules: Well explained, but doesn't it further the earlier point that the stock market is not a good representation of economy? You're absolutely right in the micro sense how the supply and demand of workforce. However can you say the same in a macro sense?

In another words, if the stock market goes up or levels out over 2-3 weeks, does that mean the economy is leveling out or on the up tick? I don't think so. If the securities have stopped hemorraging or become profitable, it will not guarantee the economy from continued downward spiral. I am certain that there are economist that explain to us. I think the stock market stumbled horribly prilor the great depression, but it held steady during the Great depression. It did not continue it slide while our economy continued to slide.

There has to be some sort of economy of scale or critical mass factor that triggers so that the stock market becomes a less or different type of economic indicator.

What other country is giving away trillions of dollars for stimulus?

Labor is part of overhead. I know that sounds "cruel" and "mean", but business isn't emotional or even "human", it's business.

...and this is a HUGE part of the problems with capitalism. The goals of businesses are sociopathic in nature. Promotes greed, promotes materialism and consumption. as well as the exploitation of labor.

WHY we are in business to begin with?

People....

to enrich people's lives, NOT just the business owners and investors.

Using people by milking every last ounce of energy and paying them peanuts while they take all the profits for themselves and their share holders is just plain wrong. These people owe their workers more than just a COLA for raises. Businesses expect absolute loyalty but have no loyalty to those who worked for the revenues the company takes in.

If a company grows by thirty percent why should the workers get a measley 3% raise while management lines their pockets with huge pay checks and bonuses and investors get their capital gains off revenues crated by those who they employ? They act as if all the employees shouls be grateful. After all where would you be without the company poor people don't provide jobs?

Where would the company,mangement and investors be without labor. After all without any workers you can't produce or distribute your products. Labor should be listed as an asset --not just overhead.

Funny how investors and mangement regularly pat themselves for such a hard days work when most have never experienced a hard days work.

There has to be some sort of economy of scale or critical mass factor that triggers so that the stock market becomes a less or different type of economic indicator.

No, the missing factor is human emotion, and as long as we have a government that goes out every day and preaches doom and gloom unless we mortgage our very souls, there will not be any stability in any market. People scare easily, and when that happens, all bets are off.

It's going to stay like this until the market gets comfortable with Obama. As long as he keeps talking about nationalizing businesses and mortgaging the future of America through stimulus and bailout plans, the market is going to stay very very nervous.

www.reteaparty.com

Get out and protest! Chicago Tea Party go to this link...Chicago, Boston, LA and other cities. Let our voices be heard.

July 4, 2009

Chuck, I think I understand your point of view. However, I do disagree with the fundamental point of your argurement. That is people ARE IN BUSINESS TO fufill themselves. I do say this with 100% good. Pelple should NOT START A BUSINESS IF HE/SHE is only interested in helping people. I believe a NON-PROFIT organization may be a better for people with that specific goals.

Business is an entity like marriage. Not all businesses are out there to "MILK" the employees. It is an exchange of services between employer (safety, benefits, status, and monetary) and employee (labor, experience, time), while government provides a consistent atmoshpere for the employer/businesses.

Businesses are entities, made up of people. We all need motivations. We are not motivated by the same purpose, so it is critical for us to admit such. So as a buiness person, I have to deny that enriching my teams's lives is not even close to my top 5 priorities. Remember, the employer and employee relationship is not one way. Both parties will have take-aways. There are plenty of transferable skills learned by both. So MILKING IT dry is pretty dramatic, but perhaps inacurate. If that is your experience, then I would highly recommend that the peroson you know will persue a better career.

The stock market as it currently exists is a giant ponzi scheme. Maintaining it required an infinite amount of resources. This is why there was a push to put Social Security into the market - to delay its eventual demise. The art of deregulation created virtual resources (with no concrete substance) that further allow the scheme to inflate.

Now that the gig is up, we are experiencing true value and worth. We should recognize the stock market for what it is worth and not treat it like a means to create one's livelyhood. Any attempt to re-inflate the market by cash injections is only throwing good money after bad!

The best outcome would be to divorce our GNP from the stock market. The only way we can collectively improve our standard of living is by growing the GNP. China has grasped this concept, why haven't we?

Right is Right-533961, this is the most sound opinion I've seen here today.

Welcome to Obama land. Home of the taxed and confused. I wonder if Democrats understand the word "Decade"

AfricanMadman

So, your saying that if Bush stayed in office.. We would see a better market?

*sighs*

African. I would go so far to say that, but I will say we wouldn't be this far in debt and that's a fact.

Mmmm...cheap stocks. I'm happy!

Could we be nearing 'Capitulation'? Time to buy!!

RIGHT IS RIGHT: Why should the stock market be divorced or separated from GNP? Are you proposing that the gains and losses are "virtual" monetary with no true net value? ... just like to better understand your perspective.

just proves destruction is easier than building as we destroyed our country when it was poised to build...took 8 years to destroy 10+ years of very hard work and he made losiong it seem so simple...

Thturd, to say that stock values are virtual is mostly, but not entirely correct. The stock market has the earn reputation of being speculative and as such, stock increases are driven mostly by this speculation - i. e. is virtual. The basis of this speculation professes to be future value, but for future value to constantly increase, part of the future value becomes the value of the stock itself. This then becomes the ponzi scheme.

What I see now is a correction of this perceived value to the true value and this is compounded by a panic condition. There will come a time when the perceived value will shink below the true value and large profits will be realized. The only way to hasten this is to increase true value. The only way to increase true value is to increase GNP. Unfortunately GNP can become victim to the same panic as stocks and can be brought down with this panic. We need to divorce the stock market panic from it's affect on GNP by encouraging businesses to produce and create jobs, even as their stock interests dwindle. Those businesses least vested in stocks - small businesses - will be at the forefront.

This businesses of increasing GNP in spite of stock failures is what the capital infusion should be doing - not creating more resources to be consumed by a speculative stock market!

The best return on this infusion would be cottage industries that have not gone public. Unfortunately these industries rely heavily on credit for startup capitalization. If we can increase small business loans with the guarantee that the funds would not find their way into the market, we could start down the road of divorcing the GNP from the market.

Right is Right:Thank you for your explanation, but I am still fuzzy, how the stock market relates to GNP (not trying to insult, but simply thick in the head). I thought the following is formula for GNP, how much and where does the stock market valuation effect GNP?

GNP = GDP + NI = (C + G + I + NX) + NI where;

"C" is equal to all private consumption, or consumer spending, in a nation's economy
"G" is the sum of government spending
"I" is the sum of all the country's businesses spending on capital
"NX" is the nation's total net exports, calculated as total exports minus total imports. (NX = Exports - Imports)

“NI” is nation's total net income earned by residents from overseas investments, minus income earned within the domestic economy by overseas residents.

in 1970, a union floorlayer made about 34,000 a year. at that time, the average home price was 17,000. today, the same union floorlayer makes the same 34,000 a year. the average home price in 2000 was 119,600.

I do agree with you that the distance between the rich and the middle class have grown. On the other hand there are also more competition within USA for what was previously high paid middle class job. It would be unfair to expect that wage to be constant over 30 years. I sympathize with the floorlayer, but I would at the sametime would have recommend that the floorlayer get involved with other things such as savings, investments, education, and additional training.

thturd

In your equation:

GNP = GDP + NI = (C + G + I + NX) + NI where;

"C" is equal to all private consumption, or consumer spending, in a nation's economy
"G" is the sum of government spending
"I" is the sum of all the country's businesses spending on capital
"NX" is the nation's total net exports, calculated as total exports minus total imports. (NX = Exports - Imports)

“NI” is nation's total net income earned by residents from overseas investments, minus income earned within the domestic economy by overseas residents.

The value of "C" can be allowed to include consumption (or expendetures) for stocks as can the value "I". As stocks represent nothing tangible as in a commodities market, the amount of stocks that can be purchased is theoretical infinite; but, the stocks can have no or little real value, mostly perceived value so the GNP is artificially inflated.

By divorcing speculative items from the GNP, we harden ourselves delusional economic states. For instance, if a company choses to out source production, in may cut it's production cost, increasing it's stock value. The increased stock value may cause speculation to drive the value even higher. To drive that value higher, stock needs to be purchased at the greater value (increasing "C"). The funds to purchase the inflated value stock came from past speculation. Where it appears that this company has increase the GNP, it has actually decreased the GNP because what it produced was speculation on it's stock which has no real value. The reality is that the nation is producing less because that product has move overseas but the appearence is that the nation is producing more.

The insatiable greed of the spoiled rotten stock market

is a tough habit to break. They want their returns now

REGARDLESS of what it does to our country. Where are

the perp walks for what they've done ?????

It is not just Wall Street that has not responded well to the actions our new President has led, it is the world markets. The response shows how the confident the WORLD is about what has been put into play. Unfortunately, alot of Americans feel the same way, and our voices are not being heard. The world is going to be effected by the economic downturn as they will not be able to sell their wares here as they once did. No money, no buying. There are many other examples, but you can fill in the blanks yourself.

I had resigned myself long ago to the reality that I will have to work until I die, as there would be no Social Security by the time I can retire. Additionally, my 401K has NEVER performed as well as the broker said it should. Now I lost 40% of it last year and it is still going down. Add on to it, the incredible loss of jobs in this country since all the trade deals were made. What is the point? I might as well go on the dole too, though I don't know who is going to pay for it.

No jobs, no money, no need for credit...... What part of this don't you understand Washington???????????????????

What I don't understand is why we don't hear more about Credit Default Swaps (CDS). According to the Mortgage Bankers Assn. website, there is something like 3 trillion dollars in outstanding mortage debt in the U.S. Only a fraction of which is in trouble. There is 60 trillion in CDS's. I think the real reason the financial sector is tanking is not the bad loans, but the CDS's. If you don't know what they are, go check them out on Youtube. There are a lot of good tutorials about it and news footage. CDS's are completely unregulated and they are not investing at all. It is speculation, which is the finance sector's word for gambling. Basically, they are insurance on investments. What is so screwed about them is that you don't have to own the investment to buy a CDS on it. It's like everyone on your block buying an insurance policy on your house. For example, lets say some guy buys a CDS on a loan he issued. 29 other guys can buy CDS's for it as well, and if there is a default on the loan, all 30 get paid the full amount of the default, even though 29 had absolutely nothing to do with the loan. I think that's what's killing the banks. Seriously, check out Youtube. It's hair raising.

Right is Right: Thank you for your explaination. I think I understand you point of view, and definitely the one regarding the true net mfg production. However, I am not convinced that that should be involved with GDP and GNP. Perhaps a separate index.

One major issue I have with recent executive branches altering their definitions of unemployement and budget. If there is no clear definition, how can we see true figures? I believe every Presidential team has came in and made changes in their definition so that their production seems better. Hogwash.... I believe if we go back and calculated Unemployement according to how we did it 30 years ago... The unemployement figure will shock everyone.

My only wish is that ALL of Wall Street would go belly up and no one would bail them again!! Their compromise, contemplate, and speculate are e4verything that pushes the #'s everyday. They are all full of it and themselves and deserve to fail!!!

thturd - I agree with you about the unemployment figures. To compare today's figures with those of say 1930 would be comparing apples to oranges - no valid opinion could be made. I believe that if we used the same definition of "unemployed" as was used in 1930, we would see that we are in a very simular situation to the Great Depression.

This information would not 'spin' well for anyone and so will probably never be forthcoming.

The world has spoken that they don't like what they see from Obama?! How about they don't like what they see from AIG? How about the major players in the market, investment banks, don't have the liquidity to invest in perfecly viable, vibrant companies.

Not every up and down tick to the market has to do with your political delusions. The only way to look at a president's impact on the economy is over several years. Look at 2001-2008 and 1992-2000. That should be informative for you about presidents' effect on economies.

The equity markets cannot be eliminated, halted or disconnected from the GNP. In a capitalist system we have publically held corporations and people are free to invest in those corporations through their respective markets.

There is nothing inherently wrong with this model.

It is only when the markets are allowed to operate without oversight that problems develop.

MG71

People pulling out of the market exacerbates the problem.

You gotta be kidding-ya think. Market's not buying all the money being thrown at all of these companies. Stealing tax money from the kids not yet born to spend like a drunken sailor. Raising tax rates, hidden taxes, water parks, broadband network so private companies can take them over and make money, buying useless assets like Citibank, AIG because they are too big to fail. Give me a break!!! When I worked for Pan Am (remember them?) we were too big but NO ONE gave a second thought when we folded or Eastern or Braniff or Flying Tigers. The government though stopped the Shah of Iran from trying to buy 30% of the company because of US security concerns.

Now we are going to have to bail out Las Vegas because they too are too big to fail-when does this all stop. What's next?

The market began its decline as soon as Obama appeared as the Demo frontrunner, but the leftist media doesn't want to say this as it is "politically incorrect" in our current tyrannical, socialistic environment. The Demo convention in August brought it down again and, of course, the dreaded Inauguration Day brought it down again. Every time this guy (or his Treasury Sec. Geithner) speaks, the market slides further. Fasten your seatblets, folks!

The market had stabilized after the election around 8500 in roughly a 500 point trading range. The new congress and Obama administrations knee jerk reaction has caused the panic in the market over the past 2 months. Lord knows where the next level of support in the market is, DJIA of 3000 - 4000 would be my guess since little of the porkulus package does anything to help the economy this year. Had the congress and Obama instituted a tax holiday aimed at getting money back in the hands of consumers now, then embark on an honest, in-depth study of what went wrong that got us into this mess, and fix those issues, the market would already be north of 10,000.

To those of you who think only rich people have been hurt by this, you are sadly mistaken. The track Obama and his trusty side kick Nasty Nancy have taken us down is doomed to fail. All these Green Industries they HOPE will be the new US economy, won't spring from the ground like Dandelions. We are talking years before there are enough of of them to make a pinch of crap difference in the economy.

Anyone willing to believe it will do anything today other than go down again , must believe in the Tooth Fairy still

Pelple should NOT START A BUSINESS IF HE/SHE is only interested in helping people. I believe a NON-PROFIT organization may be a better for people with that specific goals.

That is people ARE IN BUSINESS TO fufill themselves.

No one said you should go into business just to help people. I am a business owner.

The bottom line is people and I don't care what biz you own that is true. Without them YOUR BIG BIZ DIES, without them Biz owners make NOTHING.

I am saying there is NO way these people can self full themselves without the enviornment provided to them because of everyone else. They owe it back...they owe money to the people who made them their millions. There is NO way any of these dolts can justify their millions in pay while people under them are having to get 2 jobs just to support a middle class life style.

Stock market v. Vegas? Basically, it's the same people involved in the shake down.

It is time to buy CITI? About 9:50 AM is my guess with a limit order of $0.88.

"The working class (urban) will not be exploited." Karl Marx, et al.

THEY can only poison just so much Tylenol. Sooner or later, WE will have to take care of ourselves.

Citigroup (C) had a low today of $0.97. But, check this out. On January 14, 2009, several of the corporate officers were awarded millions of shares of C. This means that they did not PAY for them.

Why was this?

I wish these companies needing Govt bailout come clean with their situation... not going to happend, but I can wish. It got to be in their blood.

Chuck1968: "...There is NO way any of these dolts can justify their millions in pay while people under them are having to get 2 jobs just to support a middle class life style." Unfortunately they can and do justify their pay. That is why Unions were estabilshed. That is also why the guillitines blades were constantly sharpened during the French revolution.

What constantly amazes me is that the Markets are so sensitive and apparently insecure, have such sandy foundations to begin with (and they know it), that the slightest word from someone they like or don't like about something they like or don't like, causes such fear and trembling amongst "The Masters Of The Universe". If they genuinely had faith in the sysyem and how THEY run their end of it, we wouldn't be seeing such wild fluctuations or, as at present, seeming freefall. Long term investors are the ones with faith in the system, unfortunately poorly advised faith. It's the folks who are in and out with every little dip or rise in the market based on what someone said or predicted, who get in and out as rapidly as they do, and taking the money and running when they can, that have so damaged the system. And Those banks made those poorly advised loans, thinking they could eventually clean up on them (don't get me wrong-there are people out there who should never have gotten those loans, but that sort of begs the question: why did they get them? Because somebody was sure they would make money on them!). I'm digusted with the whole lot! (Did anyone see Jon Stewart Wednesday night, March4th? It was a riot: clips of various corporation CEOs or other top officers telling us how wl they were doing followed by the info on when they got "bailed out". My sympathy goes to those who followed their brokers' advice about how well such and such was doing, and bought, bought, bought stock on the word of the "experts. I know people who have lost nearly everything. Maybe we should learn the lesson that it's not really a good idea to rely on making money without actually working for it and assuming that you can do it risk free. Legit investments are a real lifeblood of the county's economic system, but trying to make a living on how the "Masters" feel about Coca Cola today, or what some economist or poitician said to put them in a good or bad mood is not "legit" to me).

Even Vegas has changed their odds. It's tightened down like a clam shell. I know I've been there, done that.

This economy is the result of the economical war started 9/11 by who knows whom. The resulting depression is the materialization of worldwide resentment of the "American way of life". The life bush claims we are defending against terrorism. The actions taken by the bush administration in response to 9/11 were 180* off. Rather than to go shopping as he suggested and starting new wars of exploitation based on colonialism and imperialism. . Rather than comprehend the messages being rallied by the protestors of the G-8 summits, The capitalistic multi-national corporations strengthened their resolve to enlarge their bottom lines at the expense of the commons and off to war we went.

There is no solution to the current crisis that falls within the ideology of American capitalism. It's over, it's done with. The solutions will come from the bottom up. It's time to think globally and act locally. It's get to work helping your community realize the values of friendship and family. It's reap the emotional rewards of global love. It's forget everything you ever knew about work values and learn some environmental values. Remember work is bad, connecting to your children is good. It's stop the buying and consumerism and start recycling life's pleasures. Rather than going for a drive, take a walk. Instead of complaining about the price of groceries, plant a garden. Rather than feeling good about the new toys you just bought, try feeling good that you haven't bought any new toys.

The world is a changing and America better get on the ball. So far the politicians are still in denial of the facts and are hiding the truth. The world just can't take any more of America's ethnocentrism. They don't care that we are "American".

it's just like in the times of John Locke and the enlightenment. The commons know that they have God given rights and that America doesn't own the right to exploit the world at everyone else's expense. In fact they realize that when a long train of usurpations shows a design to reduce the world to absolute despotism (under a one world order), then it is not only their right but their duty to throw off such government and establish another government that better provides for their safety and happiness.

The American lifestyle is being forcibly changed by the current economical crisis because the world is throwing off the American lifestyle of rabid capitalism and the sooner our leaders except the death of rabid capitalism and start working on social reforms the sooner this crisis will be over and we will be free to pursue our individual dreams.

Anyone remember the economy during the Clinton years?

We could have had that prosperity again. Unfortunately, we get Obama with no experience at all, wrecking havoc with ill-advised monetary bills.

Have you noticed? As long as Obammy stops talking about the economy and locks Geithner in the cellar, there is at least a modest stock rally. He should stay on the subjects of education and stem cells and leave the economy, about which he knows next to nothing, to the big boys. Also, keep the Treasury dude locked in the cellar and throw away the key.

Hey MG-can we come with you? You seem like you'd be a lot of fun there!

There are several schools of economics....the first says that Wall St. is an auction market and doesn't necessarily reflect the economy......it's a gamble. The only long term certainty is that the 'markets' will drop and rise again.

My crystal ball is a little foggy, but I would start buying stocks (even speculative ones) when the DJA hits in the mid 5000's. There will be a ton of money to be made.

The only problem and drawback would be - if you didn't have any money to invest!

Realtor1-860813

It's amazing how NBC can make bad news look good for "Obama". Real estate still dead except for forclosures where the banks just give the properties away to clean books and recieve more TARP money. Homeowner gets the shaft.

You weren't griping when you were selling those houses that the buyer could not really afford. I was in real estate in the 80's and after those new designer loans started my conscience wouldn't let me take people's life savings for a home that #1) they could not afford

#2) had to be re-financed at a future date

so kwitcherbitchin!

Those changing mortgage rates alone put many folks out of their homes.

Two points:

1. Comments by a clown CEO who has accepted Billions upon Billions in corporate welfare while treating his customers, the country, etc. like garbage that he "thinks" things are "better" rallys the market - Are these guys kidding. Do any of these Bank guys have any credibility with anyone? I mean one day they are bankrupt, destitutute and in need of money like "right now". The next day they are making a profit again? Every hear about "disclosure", accounting, financial reporting? If this is the recovery its time to move to Havana.

2. Realtor man: Sorry man that you havd to trade your Porsche for a Mazda, and actually work for a living for a while. The problem is that the real estate conspiracy unleasehed on us by the Fed, Banks, realtors, Bush and Congress meant that houses were fraudualantly overvalued in every market in the country. This was designed to create "money" by using these fraudualnt assets as collateral for loans. All of these guys made lots of money off the "ponzi" scheme which required a constant flow of new "marks" to come in a buy ever more "expensive" houses. Eventually, like all ponzi scams, it fell apart.

PerryJ

"Funny, when Bush was in office he caused the stock market to drop. Now it is the "government". The media uses every trick in the book to cover for Obama."

On Jan. 21, the Dow Jone Industrial closed at 8,228.10
Even after gaining 379.44 today the closing was 6,926.49

Even after 9/11 the DJI was never this low during the Bush administration.

Try doing some research instead of posting erroneous statements on the forum.

"avg-joe

If only congress had approved more H-1B and L-1 visas, we would have had what we really need to compete: foreign workers with foreign bachelor's degrees.

We only have 65K H-1B visas as it currently stands ... but wait, our L-1 visa supply is unlimited. Woops, never mind ...

Yours Truly,
Bill Gates and the rest of the US High Tech Industry"

You hit the nail on the head! Now he is asking for 17,000 more H-1B workers, and he might have given enough to a certain campaign to get them! Not very long ago he laid off 5,000 American workers. I suppose it won't be long until another 17,000 Americans are out of work.

Not only that, but most of us are using his lousy software! I wish one day he would produce one thing that worked....sort of makes me think of the current administration.

Wait a minute folks,,BAnk of America and JpMorgan had a profit the first two months of this year....where are all the losses then that they got the billions for ? Everything in the news until now has claimed huge losses..so what is this turn around..? WHy were not the profits listed for January shown before the bank got the extra funding ?

The losses are still there, they will have to be made up. For now they are not losing money. This is good news. I would rather see a small increase or decrease instead of these 300 and 400 point swings we have been getting. Hopefully this could be leading to some stabilization.

Fingers crossed?

It's been about a week since O's done anything too economically insane. Just goes to show, leave the system alone and it will eventually heal its self.

dewintre200 "One has to almost laugh at the chaos. When can we start with the "I told you so"s? To AfricanMadman, Obama was elected to fix things, not to aggravate them. Please stop using Bush as a crutch. "
Only if you think it's a crutch to tell the truth.
ACTUAL reason for the financial mess?

60 TRILLION $ IN UNSECURED DEBT OVER THE PAST 5 YEARS!!!!!

THAT IS THE TOTAL GDP FOR ALL THE COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD

MORE MONEY THAN TECHNICALLY EXISTS IN THE WHOLE WORLD

CAN WE GET OUR MINDS AROUND THAT NUMBER? 60 TRILLION

GDP FOR AMERICA: 14 TRILLION

YEARLY OPERATING BUDGET FOR AMERICA: 3 TRILLION

THIS IS 60 TRILLION IN UNSECURED DEBT

WRITTEN BY CORPORATE SUITS OVER THE PAST 4 YEARS

CORRUPTING FINANCIAL SYSTEMS GLOBALLY

60 TRILLION, PEOPLE, 60 TRILLION IN SWAPS (unsecured debt)

THAT is our problem, not teleprompters, or "white slavery"!!!!, or the "King of Kenya"

Scumbama, Obummer, Odummer or ramalamadingdang

THIS IS RIDICULOUS!!!

Bush was CEO of America when all this happened. We think we're bright - we let Bush off the hook - he's out on a speaking tour now (trying to avoid being nikedto death), signing 7 million $ book agreements (Palin got 12M) - and the guy who is trying to fix the mess that happened under Bush's watch, is crucified by ignorance and misinformation!

BUSH WAS ON WATCH WHILE 60 TRILLION IN SWAPS SUNK THE SHIP!!!!

He knew - everyone knew this was happening!!!

Bailouts are inevitable in the face of those numbers. WHAT WOULD YOU DO IN THE FACE OF DEBTS THAT AMERICAN COMPANIES OWE FOR 60 TRILLION $? OH, NOTHING - NO BAILOUT, NO STIMULUS, JUST TAX CUTS FOR THE RICH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We might like to renig on them - but people all over the world have been paying an average of 1 million $ a year in premuims. I think they would not be happy if we just said, oh well, sorry - we took your money, bye-bye. We do hold the world currency, if you remember!

Misinformation is killing this nation !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

People, American public opinion is the most powerful force in the world! You people with the Odumbo crap - who is dumb? The guy whose been in office 2 months, or the guy who blames 8 years of mismanagement on him? The rest of us will hit you over the head with the fact stick until you finally get the truth. It's our job now. While fixing the Bush Bomb at the same time. No worries, we can do it. It's just fact vs, rhetoric. We ARE smart enough to figure THAT out, right?

Otherwise we'll elect Cheney/Satan in 2012. Won't that make this a great world to live in.

J Harris,

What happens when a glass of water, which God gave freely, reaches the price of a gallon of gas?

Checked the price of a bottle of water lately? Life in this country has gone absolutely mad.

Yeah, no wonder Wall Street cheered for a couple of days after Geithner announced his "plan" to relieve the banks of the junk securities they created. The plan is he's going to take it from them and dump all that toxic s__t onto the heads of the public.

Obama, the guy that wants to cut your Social Security in order to pay for the bail-out of the guys that destroyed your 401K.

Wall street is no longer an indicator of anything other than expected corporate welfare payments and executive pay. If we Borrow Trillions to shore up bankrupt banks we should see things get better, until all the "bailout money" is gone. Then we either have deflation again, or inflation. We need to understand that the actions of the Government and Fed are designed to be highly inflationary, and when there is short term inflation why is everyone happy. On the micro level the end is not in sight .... no new jobs, credit, etc ....

The current problem is the $55 trillion in global CDS liability. All of these countries are looking at each other wondering who is going to blink first. Some of the CDSs are legitimate insurance against CDOs but the vast majority of them are just the stakes that gamblers put on the table and they should lose.

What the G20 should do is take the CDSs out of the global system by making them unenforceable for five years, setting up a global court of claims and a set of standards for assessing the validity of the insurance, and moving forward from there. The banking system and Wall Street could go back to business as usual tomorrow if the CDSs were frozen assets instead of live, ticking timebombs, and we would not be pouring money into holes that don't seem to have a bottom.

The stock market didn't go down because of the "bad" plans....it went down because the liberals took away just a little more of the "free enterprise" system.

The stock market is not an accurate meter of how well most people are doing. In the first place 50% of americans don't have ANY stock. Of the americans who do own stock most are rich. 76% of the wealth of the stock market is owned by the richest 10% and something like 90% of that is owned by the richest 1%.

Also: Americans need to get over their fetish for balanced budgets and especially surpluses. Most think that a surplus is the ideal situation but a deficit, particularly that results from spending on good investments(health, infrastructure, education, etc) and NOT from tax cuts for the super wealthy, is better.

Remember the Clinton surplus of 1999-2000? What happened after that? Recession and now an even worse one. The 1920s had consecutive years with budget surpluses, then the stock market crashed and we had the Great Depression. Read this:

...However, throughout our history, the US has experienced exactly six periods of substantial reduction of federal government debt, achieved through persistent budget surpluses, and each of those periods ended in one of our nation’s six depressions. Our last period of substantial surpluses occurred between 1920 and 1930, when Treasury debt was reduced by 36%; the Great Depression began in 1929. For a more recent example, Japan began to run government surpluses in 1987, which reduced non-governmental nominal wealth and generated a deep recession that has already lasted a decade.

Surpluses are usually not good!

Listen we are giving 1 trillion dollars to "A New World Order" this is very serious if you do not understand what this means. Gordon Brown is pushing this Bush was also on board. It is unclear if Obama was on board but certainly appears to be now! I will keep this short but "A New World Order"? Are you ready to throw our constitution in the trash? Are you ready to turn our Economy over to a "NEW World Order" where the some World organization tells the United States what our laws and regulations should be? The people of the United States are not stupid and I don't believe you are either. I do believe a war has been declared on the United States and most of us have no idea it is happening. You must contact your representatives who need to live up to their oath and protect the Constitution of the United States. World cooperation is one thing a "NEW WORLD ORDER" is quite another.

They won't listen as they think it is all a hoax. The One World Power will be here sooner than you think and all things now will be 100 times worse. There will come a time when socialism will look so good to us all. As I see it Capitalism has not worked in many years and we are only seeing the results lately when they got caught with their hands in the tax payers pocket up to their elbows. The One World Power has not been hidden from us as all the last four Presidents have spoken of it openly. I think we are screwed. By the way most of our so called representatives are in on this to.

Auther Schlesinger—US Historian 1995
"We are not going to achieve a new world order without paying for it in blood as well as words and money."

William Fulbright—US Senator 1963
"The case for Gov. by the elites is irrefutable."

Barry Goldwater--- US Senator 1964
"The trilateral commission is intended to be the vehicle for multinational consolidation of the commercial and banking interests by seizing control of the political Gov. of the United Stated. They will rule the future."

JamesWarburg---Rothschild Banking 1950
We shall have World Government whether or not you like it…by conquest or consent.

Makes you wonder how with unemployment at it's highest since "83" and all the other tidbets that the market goes up. Can it be George Soros is involved in this upswing of the market only ready to sell everything next week to slam the market to the floor? George has been known to ruin country's economics for his gain.

Why hasn't MSNBC reported that several banks are ready to pay back the TARP money but Obama is refusing it? Stuart Varney in the WSJ says that Obama now has full control over the banks telling them where they have to lend the money. So I guess if ACORN wants to build indoctrination facilities the banks will have to lend them the money.

Well boo hooo for wall street..let them join the rest of us on the streets....I do not feel sorry for them at all, they had tons of money thrown at them to the financial industry and they are still crying. The money was wasted giving it to them,,so far they have helped very very few except for themselves and their friends and CEO's.

"Public/Private partnership" to take bad assets off of banks and dump them on the tax payers is really a looting of the public by the banks with the governments assistance.

Excerpt from article about Obama administrations bail out of banks by Barry Gray:

The FDIC will be insuring more than $1 trillion in new obligations incurred as the government covers the bad debts of the banks. However, the FDIC’s charter limits the obligations it can take on to $30 billion. The Times article quotes one “prominent securities lawyers” as saying, “They may not be breaking the letter of the law, but they’re sure disregarding its spirit.”

How does the government justify this breach? By calculating the obligations which the FDIC is assuming not at their monetary value, but at their value as “contingent liabilities.” That is, according to how much the FDIC expects to lose from its vast extension of credit to Wall Street firms (in the form of nonrecourse loans, i.e., loans in which the firms put up no collateral of their own, but only the supposed value of the toxic assets they are purchasing).

And what is the sum total of these “contingent liabilities”? Sorkin writes: “’We project no losses,’ Sheila Bair, the chairwoman, told me in an interview. Zero? Really? ‘Our accountants have signed off on no net losses,’ she said. (Well, that’s one way to stay under the borrowing cap).”

What is the significance of this astonishing reasoning? Simply this: The Obama administration, in order to protect the wealth and power of the financial elite, is facilitating and directly perpetrating on a colossal scale the same type of accounting fraud and reckless leveraging that led to the economic catastrophe in the first place.

Who is to pay the price for this looting operation? The answer can be seen in the Obama Auto Task Force’s demands for the liquidation of much of the US auto industry and the brutal downsizing of what remains, combined with the imposition of poverty-level wages on those workers who remain in the surviving plants and the gutting of the pensions and health benefits of retirees. It can be further seen in the administration’s pledge to slash social programs, including Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security.

The administration’s “recovery” plan is a barely disguised scheme to preserve the fortunes of the financial aristocracy, whose interests it represents, by imposing poverty and social misery on average working americans.

I don't know about anyone else but I'm getting really F'ing tired of being told what Wall Street likes or doesn't like about this or that government program, action or event. All those white collar swindlers should be in Gitmo anyway.

The financial sector of an economy should not be as big as it has become. In a healthy economy it's about 20% of the business. Today it's like 40%. Wall Street has become a huge parasite that controls the government too. No wonder things are so bad.

April was Wall Street’s best month in nine years

That is a totally idiotic statement since it is based on percentages.

See, if the market drops 50%, then it rises 50%, it is only 75% of where it started - i.e., 25% down.

Going up 9% when it is about half of where it was in 2007, is a miniscule gain. It only is "good" if I ject got in the market last month, otherwise, wake me when it is back up 100%.

Oh and to all you goofballs that want to blame Bush for the stock market mini-crash - do your homework. The market was at the highest when Bush was President and started to head down when Democrats took over Congress. It dived even more steeply when it became obvious that a democrat would win the Presidency, and even more steeply when Obama won the democratic nomination. Now do you see the problem?

the dictator obama doesn't have a clue... the stock market will go higher when the theif who is over the treasury dept is fired or quits it will remain in the doludrumbs until that happens. and the car sales of chrysler and gm will continue to go down as long as dictator obama has his hand at the till, everything that this administration has done is folly. just look at thefederal tax credits for energy efficiency headlines are big but you had better read the fine print. and he tries to control the credit card companies and their fine print. get a life lawbreakers in washington who are in power, voters need to look at all of the people in congress and their gains since being there. pelosi,feinstein just to name two who gained millions and millions..

Today, S&P put 22 National and Regional banks on watch for downgrades, and as of now the DJIA is up 214. Lending guidelines are constricting, which leads to less people/businesses qualifying for loans (read less lending taking place), and losses on pick-a-payment loans that were rampant in 2006,2007, and 2008 vintages are expected to accelerate as these loans reset to ammortized loans. Banks have already taken over $500 Billion in write-downs, and the IMF is forecasting that they will have to write-down an additional $500 Billion as these assets continue to underperform. Sure the market is up...and irrational exuberance is rampant...but this will last just long enough for the common Joe to take a chance and put money in the market in an attempt to recoup his losses, only to have the market turn, and lose another 40%...

When President Obama took office the market slid, he continue to take hits regarding the market slide after 50 days in the office, now that the stockmarket is above when he took office he is still taking hits from you right wing wackos... The common thread: you simply don't like the man, nor anything he does. GOP = Grand Obstructionist Party is definitely in plain view.

When the stock market went down, you claim that the market is the guidling light, where are you guys? Now that the market is on the uptick for 2+ weeks, the nay sayers are claiming that the stock market is not an indicator.... SO WHAT IS YOUR TRUTH?

The only thing I see consistent is your NON STOP WHINING, AND OBSTRUCTION.

Since we are now in a world economy, where nothing make sense, the American lifestyle as we knew it will soon be gone. In order to bring the standard of living up for the rest of the third world most of the bail out money will be invested overseas. As the rest of the worlds standard of living goes up ours has to go down.....which, unfortunately, it is. NAFDA sucks.

I disagree with the American lifestyle will soon be gone. I think our life style constantly change, whether we want to admit it or not. I am certain that even you have to admit that your lifestyle is far different from that of your parents. So will our children be from ours. Hopefully it is progress... note: it may not be in our eyes, but that is because we human looks back and "recount" the good ole days.

It is unfortunate that we have not progressed as well has we have hoped the past 20+ years, but you know it is our own responsibility. It is our job to hold people accountable. Did we become too complacent or too comfortable? I know the recent jolts (last 10 years) really opened my eyes to the world... It is far too easy to sit back and point the fingers. It is all of our diligences that make America American.

Folks, hang on because it is only going to get worse. The next 3 looming crises that will cause the collapse of the Dow is: The credit card crisis estimated at between 100-140 billion in losses (and that's base on a rosy outlook in the President's budget) ,Medicare and Social security. Since our economy, for the last 50 years has and through both Re4publican and Democrat administrations, has now grown to account for almost 70& of GNP. As people again stop buying and the temporary stimulus to the states runs out and Foreign Countries stop paying for our debt, we are going down the toilet fast.

So, what can we do? Bring some sanity to Washington and get the budget under control. Tell Washington that The government works for us not that we work for the government and the bribes and pay-offs that occur in both parties.

Either way, the next 4-10 years will be tough and that is assuming Washington gets its act together.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

DOI

When both parties are corrupt, We, the people, have only one recourse and that is our right. If we do not act then we doomed our children and grandchildren to a life of misery. Republican or Democrat, Liberal or Conservative, Keynesian or supply-side, all have been corrupted by power over the last 50-60 years. History will judge us by how we act in our country's time of need. If we fail then let them hang us. If we succeed then we again can restore the living embodiment of our nations that all, no matter what sex, race, religion, sexual orientation are created equal and must be equal parties in a cause greater than any one person.

We don't care what your political or any other orientation is. what we care about is all Americans not just those like Resko and others. Get off your A@@ and go out in the streets and save our country. If not then shut-up and live with the shame that history judges you. Live with the shame when your children or grandchildren look back at you in shame. This isn't about right or left, Republican or Democrat. These two parties have been getting us into this mess for 50 years.

Live in shame because of your inaction when soldiers die in Afghanistan (21st century Vietnam). Live in shame when the moment of truth came, you were too lazy to do anything and stood by while our DOI and constitution have been shredded by both Republicans and Democrats.

Our founder were not perfect but at least they had the courage to travel the road less taken and defeat the greatest army in the world. We wonder what they must think about us? So, quit complaining and march or shut-up and accept the verdict of history.

Finally, keep in mind those "crooks" on Wall street get their power from the Crooks in both parties in our Capitol

"

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

DOI

This gives us the right to change government if we have the courage.

if you want a taste of the lies of this administration and that it is really no different than the Republican idiots they replaced, here are some examples. One left out was that Obama promised to re-instate the ban on semi and automatic weapons. Holder even starting talking about this from day one He was told to shut up by Obama through Emmanuel because the Democrats didn't want to risk losing seats in Border states. The Republicans are no better and both are only interested in their party's welfare not the country's welfare. All below provided by Factcheck.org.

"Economic Cheerleading

Facing some heat from critics who complained that the administration’s budget figures are too rosy, Obama offered a misleading defense to a national TV audience during his March 24 prime-time news conference. He said: “Our assumptions are perfectly consistent with what Blue Chip forecasters out there are saying.” That wasn’t true.

Obama was referring to the Blue Chip Economic Indicators, a survey of forecasts from 50 private economists. In fact, at the time he spoke, the most recent Blue Chip forecast was far more pessimistic than the administration’s budget projections. That’s no small matter, since a weaker economic performance will produce even larger federal deficits than the Obama budget already forecasts.

March 25

Budgetspeak

Obama also got it wrong when he claimed in that same speech that “we are reducing

nondefense discretionary spending to its lowest level since the '60s.” His own forecast puts this figure higher than in many years under Reagan, Clinton or either Bush.

Furthermore, he used the same verbal sleight-of-hand that President George W. Bush had used to deflect attention from the larger truth – that total federal spending is (and was) soaring far beyond the government’s means to pay for it. “Nondefense discretionary spending” is just a small slice (under 20 percent) of total spending. It excludes military spending, homeland security spending and rapidly rising Social Security and Medicare spending, among other things. So even if Obama’s claim had been true, it would have been misleading – pure spin.

March 25

Presidential Puffery

We've noted a tendency for Obama to puff up the problems he's facing, as well as the solutions he's proposing. For example:

· He told a joint session of Congress Feb. 24 that "we import more oil today than ever before." That's untrue. Imports peaked in 2005 and are lower today.

Feb. 25

· He claimed in the same speech that his mortgage aid plan would help "responsible" buyers but not those who borrowed beyond their means. But even prominent defenders of the program in his administration concede that foolish borrowers will be aided, too.

Feb. 25

· He claimed in a March 10 address on education that the high school dropout rate has "tripled in the past 30 years.” But according to the Department of Education, it has actually declined by a third.

March 18

We’ve also found Obama being more certain than is warranted. He is fond of repeating, for example, that his stimulus bill will “create or save” 3.5 million jobs. Maybe so; some leading economists figure that’s possible, though it's far from a certainty. The immediate reality, however, is that the economy has been losing an average of 22,000 jobs per day since Obama took office.

Feb. 13

Another example occurred April 16 during his visit to Mexico. Obama wanted his hosts to crack down on the violent drug trade and was promising that the U.S. would do its bit, too. But he went too far when he said, “More than 90 percent of the guns recovered in Mexico come from the United States.” It's true that U.S. officials say that more than 90 percent of the guns Mexican officials ask them to trace are found to have come through the U.S. But Mexican officials don't ask the U.S. to trace all the guns they recover, so there's no way to know exactly how many come through the U.S.

April 17

This is the start of a series of reality checks on both parties that, hopefully will lead people to coclude thaqt there is only one answer.

i knew dictator obama was slow but have now believe he is stupid. he appointed a tax cheat(crook) to head the treasury dept and expect people to have faith in the stock market with a crook over the irs come on obama get a life and fire the idiot which help put us in the mess in the first place. second you need to get ready for the bailing out of madam pelosi, she has painted herself into a corner with no way out except you. another lying dumocrat, pass the tuna but make sure it isn't STAR KIST>>>

MG71 -- and, we can all be dealing with the very same manipulators.

Wasn't the article about the housing starts? So housing starts are down, hey forclosures are up, thus there is a glut of houses on the market. Why build more homes when there are enough out there already?

Oddly enough in my area the builders can't stop building thus further depressing the prices of preowned homes even further as they sell these new homes for less. LOL

stocks will continue go down as long a timmy boy gethner is in charge of the treasury and dictator obama is ceo of gm chrysler aig uaw and telling people what they will made not what they earn,but what they will make a first for the usa under this done by the first african president of the usa unbeliveable:::::::

Can anyone out there explain the inverse correlation between gold and the US dollar index? The two appear to be moving almost in an inverse lockstep recently (except when gold hits support) ...when gold goes down the dollar goes up and vice versa. Try this comparison with other metals like palladium and there is no relation. This would appear to suggest intervention in the gold and the dollar is dominating the trades in these areas.

Having read James Turk's reports on GATA it sure makes you wonder if intervention is driving these markets.

Would someone please tell Obama to shut up. Every time he opens his mouth related to business, the market tanks. New regulations, new this, new that. How does he expect companies to operate and operate successfully when everytime he opens his mouth without thinking he causes business to hesitate and contract wondering where the news rules will put them. Any growth that might have come from the market bubble is gone as CEO and COOs grab onto any money that might have been generated in the past quarter and stash it away. No expansion, no new jobs, just fear in the market place that the business model has changed.

as long as the criminal is in charge of the treasury dept(TIMMY geithner) the stock market the car market will all go down,down,down,down you cannot appoint a know crook who stole forty thousand dollars from the usa government for eight years

There is no inverse relationship between GOLD and USD. However, given the current economic situation, USD is devaluating against other barometers, and the GOLD is an excellent hedge against economic and political instabilities. So in the recent time, the two have been moving in opposing direction.

I am actually glad (inside), because it good that we learn that our econimic situation is not a thing of INSTANT GRATIFICATION. There is no immediate pill that we can take and make the situation better. We are global, and what happens here effects people globally, and what happens globally effects here. The quicker we learn and understand our prediciment, the better off we will be.

Could it be that the low consumer spending is due to the credit card industry jacking up rates at an alarming rate? I have one card with 29.9% interest rate (Chase) and luckily zero balance, and another card with BoA that is going up from 5.9% to 11.9% for no reason other than because they can. I am saving more and spending less as a result... BADDD credit card companies... BADDD.

Oh save us super obama man....Dunt..dunt..duh...um...um...um...where's my teleprompter.

looks to me as though wall street is at it again....driving up oil prices in hopes of another big killing on profits.....and where are the controls that our elected claimed to be putting forth to control this very thing...why collecting from lobbyist of course.

another green shoot turns brown

MG71,

Maybe people should listen to this... Lindsey Williams

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4425087528933150936

Talk asbout smoke and mirrors...wall street is banking on itself...and all the ones , political and financial folks that are telling us how good it will be or is...gets paid by who ?

I think this excerpt from an article by Mike Whitney (Counter Punch website) more accurately describes what has happened to the economy and what must be done to make it better. This part describes what happened (BTW, Mike Whitney said as long ago as late 2006 that there was an enormous, and dangerous housing bubble and correctly predicted that the stock market was about to crash a few months before it did crash)

Drifting downward,

The Deflating economy

By Mike Whitney

There should be a modest uptick in GDP in either in the 4th quarter 2009 or the 1st quarter 2010. This will mark the end of the current 20 month-long recession, but not the end of the crisis. The blip in growth doesn't mean that the troubles are over or that the economy is on the way to recovery. It simply means that Obama's $787 billion fiscal stimulus is beginning to kick in, giving a boost to consumer spending and generating short-term economic activity. Regrettably, when the stimulus runs out, the economy will slide back into negative territory. That's because the US consumer has crossed an important threshold and no longer has the ability to drive the economy through debt-fueled consumption. The data indicates a critical change in consumer behavior which portends a shift away from the current model for economic growth. It's a whole new ballgame.

From the mid-1980s to 2007, the ratio of debt-to-GDP rocketed from 165% to to over 350%; more than doubling in that same period. The build-up of personal debt follows the exact same trend-line as the aggregate profits of the financial sector; they're opposite sides of the same coin. Financial institutions increase profitability by expanding credit and inflating asset bubbles, not by allocating capital to productive enterprises. Their business model is inherently flawed. Speculative bubblemaking is Wall Street's method of shifting wealth from workers to the investor class. It never fails. It's the reason why 42 states are now facing budget shortfalls, unemployment has risen to 9.5 percent, and $45 trillion has vanished from global equity markets. Financialization has created a global crisis, crushed consumer demand, increased systemic instability, and put the economy into a nosedive.

In the last decade, the shifting of wealth from one class to another has greatly accelerated due to deregulation and the Fed's low interest rates. Stagnant wages have forced reluctant participants into the market seeking a better return on their savings, while lax lending standards and easy credit have seduced workers into increasing their personal debt-load. All of this has been done by design to ensure the profits for the few over the well-being of the many....

Read the rest of the story on Counter Punch website

Excerpt from article by Paul Craig Roberts:

Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration. He is coauthor of

What Economy?

There is no economy left to recover. The US manufacturing economy was lost to offshoring and free trade ideology. It was replaced by a mythical “New Economy.”

The “New Economy” was based on services. Its artificial life was fed by the Federal Reserve’s artificially low interest rates, which produced a real estate bubble, and by “free market” financial deregulation, which unleashed financial gangsters to new heights of debt leverage and fraudulent financial products.

The real economy was traded away for a make-believe economy. When the make-believe economy collapsed, Americans’ wealth in their real estate, pensions, and savings collapsed dramatically while their jobs disappeared.

The debt economy caused Americans to leverage their assets. They refinanced their homes and spent the equity. They maxed out numerous credit cards. They worked as many jobs as they could find. Debt expansion and multiple family incomes kept the economy going.

And now suddenly Americans can’t borrow in order to spend. They are over their heads in debt. Jobs are disappearing. America’s consumer economy, approximately 70% of GDP, is dead. Those Americans who still have jobs are saving against the prospect of job loss. Millions are homeless. Some have moved in with family and friends; others are living in tent cities.

Meanwhile the US government’s budget deficit has jumped from $455 billion in 2008 to $2,000 billion this year, with another $2,000 billion on the books for 2010. And President Obama has intensified America’s expensive war of aggression in Afghanistan and initiated a new war in Pakistan....

...Nothing in Obama’s economic policy is directed at saving the US dollar as reserve currency or the livelihoods of the American people. Obama’s policy, like Bush’s before him, is keyed to the enrichment of Goldman Sachs and the armament industries.

Matt Taibbi describes Goldman Sachs as “a great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity, relentless jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like money.” Look at the Goldman Sachs representatives in the Clinton, Bush and Obama administrations. This bankster firm controls the economic policy of the United States.

Little wonder that Goldman Sachs has record earnings while the rest of us grow poorer by the day.

The stock market has been a mixed bag since the Obamabation administration took office.

Seems like it'll remain like this. The market is just as uncertain and the rest of America.

The shoots were never green only the guy in the White House with all his croonie yes man advisors.

If you aren't rich I wouldn't start popping Champaign bottles.

Just to put this news into perspective:

About half of americans own no stock at all. 75-80% of the wealth of the stock market is owned by the richest 10% of americans.

Mostly, when you hear of that the stock market doing better it's not you or people like who are making significant money.

As jobless claims rise, Wall Street celebrates corporate profit reports

By Barry Grey
24 July 2009

The number of Americans filing new claims for jobless benefits rose by 30,000 in the week ended July 18, the Labor Department reported Thursday. The total for the week was 554,000.

With nearly 15 million people out of work, according to official figures, and 6.5 million jobs having been eliminated since the recession began in December of 2007, this week’s initial jobless claims report spells increasing social misery for millions of workers.

Wall Street, however, responded to the jobless claims report, along with better-than-expected corporate earnings and a slight increase in June existing home sales, by pushing the Dow Jones Industrial Average up 188 points, ending the day above the 9,000 mark for the first time since last November.

The Dow is up more than 5 percent this month and has added nearly 1,000 points in two weeks.

The diverging fortunes of workers and the corporate elite are the result of ruthless cost-cutting by big business, which is taking advantage of the recession to slash jobs and wages and drive up productivity. The banks and big corporations are being aided and abetted by the policies of the Obama administration.

Although weekly jobless claims are below their high point earlier this year, they remain far above the 300,000 to 350,000 level that economists say is consistent with stable employment.

Some 4.4 million job seekers nationwide were out of work for 27 weeks or more in June. The number of people on emergency extended state and federal programs continued to rise. When the extended benefit rolls are included, the total of people receiving jobless benefits rises to more than 9.1 million, according to figures for the week of July 4, the latest data available....

socks instead of stocks.........someone typing a little bit too fast

OMG!! When the stock market goes down, they blame OBAMA.. when the stock market goes up... they whine, bitch, moan and comfort each other with their hate and poison. Just read some of these posts and you'll get an idea of how sick these folk really are.

You losers would b!tch about the second coming of Christ!!

signed,

Proud Gun-Toting Democrat

Since some people like to throw around the word "socialist" as a term of abuse I thought it was only fair to give a real socialist his say.
This is an excerpt from an article on why Wall Street and the big banks are suddenly reaping huge profits again. It isn't because things are improving for you and me...

International banks exploit the crisis to reap massive profits

Stephan Steinberg

31 July 2009

At the start of this week, German-based Deutsche Bank announced a huge increase in its profits. The bank reported a net profit of €1.1 billion in the second quarter of this year, nearly doubling its earnings over the same period last year (€645 million).

The massive increase in Deutsche Bank's profits follows record earnings for US-based Goldman Sachs. Two weeks ago, the US investment bank posted profits of $3.44 billion (€2.44 billion) in the three months to June.

Less than a year after the eruption of a financial crisis that has devastated economies across the globe and wiped out an estimated 40 percent of the world’s wealth, a number of major banks and investment houses are posting record profits and setting aside sharply higher—in some cases, record—sums for salaries and bonuses to their employees.

In 2008, Deutsche Bank recorded the biggest losses in its history—€3.9 billion ($5.5 billion). How is this turn-around to be explained?

A recent article in Der Spiegel magazine entitled “The Return of Greed—Banks Reopen Global Casino” provides some insight. The article cites a former leading financier, who declares, “A few years ago, the investment banks got rich on their customers’ money. When that resource became too small, they fell back on their shareholders’ money. Now they've got hold of the biggest pool the world can offer: taxpayers’ money.”

The article quotes the head of German operations of an international investment bank, who declares, “The taxpayer is paying for the chips at the casino. It doesn't get any better.”

.....It is estimated that since the outbreak of the financial crisis in September 2008, governments have committed a total of $18 trillion in public funds to recapitalise the banking system—an amount equivalent to nearly 30 percent of world GDP. In virtually all major industrial countries, major banks and financial institutions deemed to be “systemically relevant institutions” have been given blank cheques by their respective state treasuries

The bailout measures adopted by national governments represent a huge safety net for the banks, enabling them to once again engage in highly speculative forms of financial trading. The levels of debt resulting from the bank bailout packages and other forms of economic stimulus have assumed gigantic dimensions and will be paid for by generations to come....

theotherguy -

You'll have a tough time selling your message to this crowd.

First, they want to disavow anything went wrong the last 8 years - secondly if it did, it was all the dems fault the last two years....or better yet, Carter and Clintons fault!

Hell, Obama has had almost three weeks - why hasn't he secured World Peace, the Dow should be up over 10,000 again, we should have another 4 million new jobs and each of us waiting for that $10,000 stimulus check to be sent to our house.......

Cripe, it only took 8 years to get to this point - certainly we can straighten ii out in 20 days!!!!

..------bdune

there was nothing in bdune's statement that was worthy of it being collapsed. It's absolutely true. The truth is just hard for some to take.

"The market had already started off on a positive note following reports showing stronger industrial activity in China, Britain and Europe."

Isn't that just wonderful for China, Britain and Europe. What about this country. A lot of the stimulus money ended up in Europe but so far there has been little if any stimulus for our economy. Jobs are still being shed like water off a hogs ass and little if nothing is being done. Nice job Obama.

Is a lot of the stock market "rally" really just smoke and mirrors, with Bail-out Ben Bernanke behind the curtain pulling the strings? Read on...

When "Not Bad" is the New "Good"

Economy on a Scaffold

By MIKE WHITNEY

We're making this way too complicated. It's simple really.

The Fed has only one tool at its disposal; to create more money. Typically, the way the Fed adds to the money supply is by lowering interest rates. When the Fed lowers rates below the rate of inflation; they're basically selling dollars for less than a buck. That's a good deal, so, naturally, speculators jump on it and trigger a credit expansion. What follows is a frenzy of market activity that ends in a housing, credit, tech or equity bubble. Eventually, the bubble bursts and the economy goes into a tailspin. Then, after a period of digging-out, the process resumes again. Wash, rinse, repeat. It's always the same.

The moral is: Cheap money creates bubbles; and bubbles move wealth from workers to rich motherporkers. It's as simple as that. That's why the wealth gap is wider now than anytime since the Gilded Age. The rich own everything.

The Federal Reserve is the policy arm of the big banks and brokerage houses. Period. Ostensibly, its mandate is to maintain "price stability and full employment". Right. Anyone notice how many jobs the Fed has created lately? How about the dollar? Is it really supposed to zig-zag like it has been for the last decade? The central task of the Fed is to shift wealth from one class to another. And it succeeds at that task admirably.

The Fed's "mandate" is public relations claptrap. Bernanke hasn't lifted a finger for homeowners, consumers or ordinary working stiffs. All the cash is flowing upwards...according to plan. The Fed is a social engineering agency designed to serve as the de facto government behind the smokescreen of democratic institutions. Does anyone believe that a two year senator with no background in foreign policy or economics is calling the shots?

Obama is a public relations invention who's used to cut ribbons, consoling the unemployed, and convincing Americans they live in a "post racial" society. Right. (Just take a look at that footage from Katrina again.)

The Fed has complete control over monetary policy and, thus, the country's economic future. Bernanke doesn't even pretend to defer to Congress anymore. Why bother? After Lehman caved in, Bernanke invoked the "unusual and exigent" clause in the Fed's charter and declared himself czar. Now he has absolute power over the nation's purse-strings.
The $13 trillion the Fed has committed to the financial system since the beginning of the crisis --via loans and outright purchases of mortgage-backed garbage and US sovereign debt--was never authorized by Congress. In fact, the Fed stubbornly refuses to even identify which institutions got the "loans", how much the loans were worth, what kind of collateral was accepted for the loans, or when the loans have to be repaid...

But how is Bernanke creating the illusion of a stock market rally?

Zero percent interest rates haven't worked because qualified borrowers are cutting spending and saving their disposable income, while people who need to borrow, no longer meet the banks' tougher lending standards. Bank credit is shrinking even though excess bank reserves are nearly $900 billion. When banks stop lending, the economy contracts, business activity slows, unemployment soars and growth sputters.

Presently, the economy is still contracting, but at a slower pace than before. "Less bad" is the new "good". All the recession indicators are still blinking red--income, employment, sales, and production--all down big! But it doesn't matter because it's a "Green Shoots" rally; plenty of cheap liquidity for the markets and a freeway off-ramp (for sleeping) for the unemployed.

The Fed's lending facilities are designed to pump liquidity into the system and inflate another bubble by generating more debt. Unfortunately, most people accept Bernanke's feeble defense of these corporate-welfare programs and fail to see their real purpose. An example may help to explain how they really work:

Say you bought a house at the peak of the bubble in 2005 and paid $500,000. Then prices dropped 40% (as they have in Calif) and your house is now worth $300,000. If you only put 5% down, ($25,000) then you are underwater by $175,000. Which means that you own more on the mortgage than your house is currently worth. (This is essentially what has happened to the entire financial system. The equity has vaporized, so institutions are using dodgy accounting tricks instead of reporting their real losses.) So Bernanke comes along and gives you $175,000 no interest, rotating loan to you so that no one knows that you are really busted and you can continue spending just as you had before. Not bad, eh? This is what the lending facilities are all about. It is a charade to conceal the fact that a large portion of the nation's financial institutions are insolvent and propped up by state largess.

But there's more, too.

Now that Bernanke has given you $175,000 no interest, rotating loan; you expect that eventually he will ask for his money back. Right? So your only hope of saving your home, in the long run, is to engage in risky behavior, like dabbling the stock market. It's like playing roulette, except you have nothing to lose since you are underwater anyway.

This is exactly what the financial institutions are doing with the Fed's loans. They're betting on equities and hoping they can avoid the Grim Reaper.
Here's how former hedge fund manager Andy Kessler summed it up last week in the Wall Street Journal:

"By buying U.S. Treasuries and mortgages to increase the monetary base by $1 trillion, Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke didn't put money directly into the stock market but he didn't have to. With nowhere else to go, except maybe commodities, inflows into the stock market have been on a tear. Stock and bond funds saw net inflows of close to $150 billion since January. The dollars he cranked out didn't go into the hard economy, but instead into tradable assets. In other words, Ben Bernanke has been the market." (Andy Kessler, "The Bernanke Market" Wall Street Journal)

Only a small portion of the money that has gone into the stock market in the last 6 months (since the March lows) has come from money markets. The fed's loans are being laundered into stocks via financial institutions that are rolling the dice for their own survival. The uptick in the markets has helped insolvent banks raise equity in the capital markets so they don't have to grovel to Congress for another TARP bailout.

Everybody's elated with Bernanke's latest bubble except working people who have seen their wages slashed by 4.5%, their credit lines cut, the home values plunge, and their living standards sink to third world levels.

And the Fed's spending-spree is not over yet; not by a long shot. The next wave of home foreclosures (already 1.9 million in the first half of 2009) is just around the corner--the Alt-As, option arms, prime loans. The $3.5 trillion commercial real estate market is capsizing. The under-capitalized banking system will need more assistance. And there will have to be another round of fiscal stimulus for ailing consumers, otherwise, foreign holders of US Treasurys will see that the US can no longer provide 25% of global demand and head for the exits.

Bernanke's back is against the wall. The only thing he can do is print more money, shove though the back door of the stock exchange and keep his fingers crossed. The rest is up to CNBC and the other media cheerleaders.

The Fed chief has committed $13 trillion to maintain the appearance of solvency, but the system is bankrupt. The commercial paper market, money markets, trillions of dollars of toxic debt instruments, and myriad shyster investment banks and insurance companies are now backed by the "full faith and credit" of the US Treasury. The financial system is now a ward of the state. The "free market" has deteriorated into state capitalism; a centralized system where all the levers of power are controlled by the Central Bank. If Bernanke's Politburo withdraws its loans--or even if he raises interest rates too soon-- the system will collapse.

Shame previous administration broke everything.

Has anyone noticed that newsvine never changes this page. It's been up for months?

The biggest problem is the Banks. they received a lot of money but have not loosen the loan process. JPMorgan/Chase is the biggest offender and the CEO and head of various divisions reek of arrogance. So what can be done? The answer is simple- hurt them where it counts: Withdraw all money and investments from JPMorgan and move them to another bank ( a smaller one) and cancel all credit cards from this bank. Keep in mind that it is not just people with bad credit that are being squeezed by JPM but also people with stellar credit and this arrogance on their part has to end. Finally, forbid them from receiving anymore TARP money.

From the article: NEW YORK - The fear on Wall Street is that nervous consumers are going to short-circuit the economic recovery.

Uh-oh, we the people have screwed everything up again! Notice how it's always OUR fault even though we take all the "pain" from the economic crisis and the Wall Street gets bailed out. Even though they were the ones that created mortgage backed securities in the first place (the financial instruments Warren Buffet called Weapons of Mass Financial Destruction)?

The public caused the economic crisis by taking out the sub-prime loans that the smart money people like Allan Greenspan encouraged people to take out and the mortgage companies scammed people into. The bankers created the Mortgage backed securities and then bribed the rating agencies to give them Triple A ratings and made millions off of them while average people lost there homes. But it's still our fault, as Rick Santelli and that other parasite, Cramer, said on CNBC.

We caused the healthcare crisis too because we like to eat donuts and fried chicken (Of course nobody in Europe, Canada, etc, where there isn't a healthcare crisis, drinks, smokes or eats fattening food!) it's not the private healthcare industry that charges $5000 for a procedure that costs $800 in Europe or Canada, cuts your policy off when you are diagnosed with a serious illness and pays it's executives $5 million dollar bonuses.

Now, as this article points out, we might ruin the "recovery" just because we haven't got the guts to go out there and spend and run up our credit cards even higher so we can go bankrupt quicker when they lay us off from our job.

Wow, we sure are a bunch of ungrateful F' ups aren't we?

Because someone says there is a recovery, we are suppose to believe - get out and look, experience "this recovery" - there is no recovery. Restaurants are empty, government employees (Californicate) are being layed off, States can not pay tax refunds, Universities are raising tuition and forcing closures because these same universities are overextended, the housing market is not bottomed out, houses are not selling, no credit from banks (too much toxic debts still owned by banks,) is available, peoples credit cards are maxed and people can not make payments, tent cities are popping up - no jobs.

MSNBC IS JUST A PROPAGANDA MACHINE FOR THE PEOPLE THAT CREATED THIS MESS!

The beauty of a Democracy is, the voters reflect the intelligence of a society - the voter in the US elected these morons in Washington (the "over seerers") that allowed this to happen to the US thru their governing!

so now we have an economy in the gutter and failing fast along with a democratic induced budget defecit that can never be paid. the next non surprise will be taxes raised to a level no one can afford to live. i love all the "change in government" we have had with this administration.

Pump and dump. Even the feds are now doing it. The fundamentals do not agree with your vision. This is not a recovery but a manipulation.

If the Fed chairman really believes in his "blue skies" analysis, he would have raised the discount rate to head off inflationary pressures that typically follow signs of economic recovery. He didn't.

IMO, he is auditioning to Obama for his re-appointment as Fed chairman.

Under Clinton the DOW shot up 300% under Bush the DOW dropped 30% now we have a Democratic Administration it is time to invest again.

What is the Republicans plan for economic Recovery? Give big tax cuts to the wealthy?

Push for deregulation in the markets? Busting Unions and attacking the minimum wage? Republicans are for the rich and powerful and are ruled by money not the people.

I wonder how come if you read the paper and pay attention to sales in your own areas...there are no sales to speak of,,,but our governmant can see gains somewhere...must be on wall street,,,they don't seem to see anything else.

If you are going to lose your ass you may as well have fun doing it.

Don't worry Obama is going to have the Government Run Wall Street

What's the problem?! Haven't you all heard that the Messiah Obama has fixed the economy and that the recession is over? Go ahead just ask him and his propaganda ministers. Oh, no jobs and more layoffs coming...is that it?! Don't worry about that pesky little detail!! Just keep drinking the koolaid....you'll feel better. Well at least you will not care anymore. Either way the Messiah and marxism will look better and better to you!

You sheeple really are idiots and fools. ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!

So the unemployment rate increased 3 times as much as "expected", but MSNBC desperately tries to find something positive to say about it. If Bush was still President, I'm sure it would have been all doom and gloom.

Has MSNBC registered as a lobbyist for the Democratic Party yet? No wonder people are abandoning most of the media outlets in droves - instead of reporting the news, they "spin" the news towards their liberal outlook.

Since there are almost twice as many people who identify themselves as conservative leaning as liberal leaning, you would think that they would realize that the majority of left-leaning media outlets (NBC, ABC, MSNBC, CNN, AP, etc.) competing for such a small sliver of the market isn't good business sense, but I guess sound business practices isn't one of their long suits.

No wonder there's no money left in the economy. The corporations are hoarding it and sitting on it so they can make some sweet deals. Until they loosen up the corporate purse strings the economy is going to remain stagnant.

It is still speculation! Perhaps it is somewhat correlated to industry or consumer confidence, but to me it is still a lag indicator to flowing information and regulations.

Again, what concern me is the movement of the current PRO-CORPORATE supreme court, which is arguing FOR, CORPORATIONS is more than an entity. It is a person, which should inherit the protection of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I am sorry, this is pushing the corporate perception well beyond the original intent of CORPORATION. As of current, corporations is beyond the reaches of many laws and juristiction. This can not be allowed to continue. The Constitution and the Bill of Rights are there for the protection of the American citizens, not corporations. This is like the British Indies Tea Company, becoming too big to fail, and manipulating laws and political processes. The last time this happed, a revolution occured.

Sunday night MSNBC headline Sept,27,09"Time for stocks to teter and pullback". 10 Sundays in a row ,SUCKERS BEING MANIPULATED BY OBAMAS AND IMMELTS PRAVDA JOURNAL, MSNBC---TOTAL SUCKERS LOL,LOL

Until we get jobs back here in the USA we will not show stability!! Everything right now is geared toward the people who are working. This man hasn't done squat to put people back to work!!! What's his next task unrelated to this problem? Lets see he's made sticking his nose into texting a priority. Whats your next priority? How about putting people back to work? Bringing manufacturing back home where it belongs!! NAFTA doesn't work!!! Now do what's right for this country and not your lobbyists!!! Amazing how in every war this country has ever been in, it was a time of prosperity. WHY??? Because of our manufacturing!!!

HELLO!!!!!!!

"A snapshot Wednesday on employment showed some modest improvement in the labor market. The ADP National Employment Report found that private sector employment fell by 254,000 in September following a revised loss of 277,000 jobs in August. It was the fewest jobs lost since July 2008."

So, we're still loosing jobs then. Just not as fast. Isn't that wonderful news. AP call this modest improvement? It's not an improvement until new jobs are created and that's not happening yet, we're still going backwards. Note to A&P...hire some real journalists.

Isn't it comforting to know that our economy is based on gambling.

This isn't just happening in Chicago it is happening in other places too. The company my husband works for is running into the same problem. Along with the worry of the new taxes that might come along with the health care bill and the cap and trade they have sort of a plan. It will be sad to see the lay offs and most of their manufacturing move off shore but it is a real possibility. They plan on offering to move some of the employees with the manufacturing but there will still be a couple thousand who will be out of work. America wake up. Things are not going to get better for awhile and more people are going to get hurt. As always just my opinion.

Let's review Obama's score card so far……

1. Obama's handling of the economy and billion dollar bailouts is a total failure.

2. Obama's plan to reduce unemployment is a total failure.

3. Obama's Stimulus Plan is a total failure.

4. Obama's Health Care Reform is a total failure.

5. Obama's attempt to close Gitmo is a total failure.

6. Obama's strategy in Afghanistan is a total failure.

7. Obama's kowtowing to Arab and Communist Nations is a total failure.

8. Obama's attempt to control North Korea, Iran and Russia is a total failure.

9. Obama's mind-boggling deficit spending is a total failure.

10. Obama's attempt to get foreign countries to like us more is a total failure.

11. Obama's appointment of tax cheat/corrupt/socialist/incompetent cabinet members/czars is a total failure.

12. NOW THE CHICAGO OLMPICS HAS TURNED OUT TO BE A TOTAL FAILURE (LAST PLACE IN THE VOTING…..PLEASE!!! I THOUGHT CHICAGO WAS THE FRONT RUNNER).

There are so many other failures, but time does not permit me to keep going. Obama's presidency reminds me of the joke about the guy who fell off of the roof of the Empire State Building. As he passed the window on the 20th floor of the building, the man was heard to say..."Well, so far so good..." Some may laugh out loud about Obama's failed Presidency, but really there is nothing funny about failing. It's embarrassing. It's also very bad for America and our future.

Interesting if something goes bad, it's Bush's fault and Obama hasn't been in office long enough to turn things around.

But if something is going good, then Obama gets credit for turning things around.

Humans are an incredibly subjective species.

more bad news for the GOP

Here we go again - not even over the last bubble and we're making another. This economy will not recover until we boot the illegal aliens and stop outsourcing to China. Let's fire our economists and hire China's!

The stock market is only a barometer of the wealth of the wealthy and profits of Fortune 500 companies.

It has NOTHING to do with the real, "real America," which is suffering from the Bush Recession of 2007 and the Republican sale of America since 1980.

This forum is worthless. Note that most of the posts are from February.

As far as I am concerned the stock market is just wealthy people with deep pockets, trying to become more wealthy. That so many retirement funds were caught up in the stock market fall is sad. That President Bush wanted us all to use the stockmarket as a substitute for social security was absolutely sick. There is way too much insider knowledge and leverage by the few, manipulating the stock market for it to be anything more than 'palm on the forehead' as a temperature indicator of our national economy. Our country needs to produce or innovate something valuable, to bring us all up. Playing with numbers really doesn't do it.

My 401K is higher now than a year ago. Never touched it during the collapse. Stock holdings returned too. I never participated in the housing boom (ponzi) because I knew better. Thanks President Obama.

Sorry MG-- but i'm making money.

tact - these are good investing days. I'm so confident I'm investing on the margin (just for good measure)...and making extra money off it.

"Psychology plays a huge role in investing, so when you're trying to overcome the huge levels of panic and fear that we've seen over the last year, psychology shouldn't be discounted," said Carl Beck, a partner at Harris Financial Group.

The new bubble, TARP funded psychology. Money is all about psychology as it's value is no longer tied to gold or anything of tangible value and is all in our minds as we believe.

"On top of that, there are still plenty of problems that could trip up the market. Companies posted better-than-expected earnings in the second quarter, but mostly because of cost-cutting, not the sales increases needed to keep growing."

There is only so much cost cutting that can be done until the engine just disappears. Sustainable earnings can only be had when people are working and REAL value is being created.

From the Counter Punch website:

The Next Financial Crisis Hits Wall Street, as Judges Start Nixing Foreclosures

By PAM MARTENS

The financial tsunami unleashed by Wall Street's esurient alchemy of spinning toxic home mortgages into triple-A bonds, a process known as securitization, has set off its second round of financial tremors.

After leaving mortgage investors, bank shareholders, and pension fiduciaries awash in losses and a large chunk of Wall Street feeding at the public trough, the full threat of this vast securitization machine and its unseen masters who push the levers behind a tightly drawn curtain is playing out in courtrooms across America.

Three plain talking judges, in state courts in Massachusetts and Kansas, and a Federal Court in Ohio, have drilled down to the "straw man" aspect of securitization. The judges' decisions have raised serious questions as to the legality of hundreds of thousands of foreclosures that have transpired as well as the legal standing of the subsequent purchasers of those homes, who are more and more frequently the Wall Street banks themselves.

Because of the expense, time and paperwork it would take to record each of the assignments of the thousands of mortgages in each securitization, Wall Street firms decided to just issue blank mortgage assignments all along the channel of transfers, skipping the actual physical recording of the mortgage at the county registry of deeds.

Astonishingly, representatives for the trusts have been foreclosing on homes across the country, evicting the families, then auctioning the homes, without a proper paper trail on the mortgage assignments or proof that they had legal standing. In some cases, the courts have allowed the representatives to foreclose and evict despite their admission that the original mortgage note is lost. (This raises the question as to whether these mortgage notes are really lost or might have been fraudulently used in multiple securitizations, a concern raised by some Wall Street veterans.)

But, at last, some astute judges have done more than take a cursory look and render a shrug. In a decision handed down on October 14, 2009, Judge Keith Long of the Massachusetts Land Court wrote:

"The blank mortgage assignments they possessed transferred nothing...in Massachusetts, a mortgage is a conveyance of land. Nothing is conveyed unless and until it is validly conveyed. The various agreements between the securitization entities stating that each had a right to an assignment of the mortgage are not themselves an assignment and they are certainly not in recordable form...The issues in this case are not merely problems with paperwork or a matter of dotting i's and crossing t's. Instead, they lie at the heart of the protections given to homeowners and borrowers by the Massachusetts legislature. To accept the plaintiffs' arguments is to allow them to take someone's home without any demonstrable right to do so, based upon the assumption that they ultimately will be able to show that they have that right and the further assumption that potential bidders will be undeterred by the lack of a demonstrable legal foundation for the sale and will nonetheless bid full value in the expectation that that foundation will ultimately be produced, even if it takes a year or more. The law recognizes the troubling nature of these assumptions, the harm caused if those assumptions prove erroneous, and commands otherwise." [Italic emphasis in original.] (U.S. Bank National Association v. Ibanez/Wells Fargo v. Larace)

A month and a half before, on August 28, 2009, Judge Eric S. Rosen of the Kansas Supreme Court took an intensive look at a "straw man" some Wall Street firms had set up to handle the dirty work of foreclosure and serve as the "nominee" as the mortgages flipped between the various entities. Called MERS (Mortgage Electronic Registration Systems, Inc.) it's a bankruptcy-remote subsidiary of MERSCORP, which in turn is owned by units of Citigroup, JPMorgan Chase, Bank of America, the Mortgage Bankers Association and assorted mortgage and title companies. According to the MERSCORP web site, these "shareholders played a critical role in the development of MERS. Through their capital support, MERS was able to fund expenses related to development and initial start-up."

In recent years, MERS has become less of an electronic registration system and more of a serial defendant in courts across the land. In a May 2009 document titled "The Building Blocks of MERS," the company concedes that "Recently there has been a wave of lawsuits filed by homeowners facing foreclosure which challenge MERS standing…" and then proceeds over the next 30 pages to describe the lawsuits state by state, putting a decidedly optimistic spin on the situation.

MERS doesn't have a big roster of employees or lawyers running around the country foreclosing and defending itself in lawsuits. It simply deputizes employees of the banks and mortgage companies that use it as a nominee. It calls these deputies a "certifying officer." Here's how they explain this on their web site: "A certifying officer is an officer of the Member [mortgage company or bank] who is appointed a MERS officer by the Corporate Secretary of MERS by the issuance of a MERS Corporate Resolution. The Resolution authorizes the certifying officer to execute documents as a MERS officer."

Kansas Supreme Court Judge Rosen wasn't buying MERS' story. In fact, Wall Street was probably not too happy to land before Judge Rosen. In January 2002, Judge Rosen had received the Martin Luther King "Living the Dream" Humanitarian Award; he previously served as Associate General Counsel for the Kansas Securities Commissioner, and as Assistant District Attorney in Shawnee County, Kansas. Judge Rosen wrote:

"The relationship that MERS has to Sovereign [Bank] is more akin to that of a straw man than to a party possessing all the rights given a buyer… What meaning is this court to attach to MERS's designation as nominee for Millennia [Mortgage Corp.]? The parties appear to have defined the word in much the same way that the blind men of Indian legend described an elephant -- their description depended on which part they were touching at any given time. Counsel for Sovereign stated to the trial court that MERS holds the mortgage 'in street name, if you will, and our client the bank and other banks transfer these mortgages and rely on MERS to provide them with notice of foreclosures and what not.' " (Landmark National Bank v. Boyd A. Kesler)

How Wall Street Is Making It's Billions

Wall Street banks have had profitable quarters. JPMorgan Chase reported $3.6 billion in profit (more than $1 billion per month). Goldman Sachs was only slightly behind, at $3.2 billion. These profits supposedly came from “trading.” I asked a friend who has worked in the money business how this was possible. “For someone to make money trading, there has to be someone on the other side of every trade who is losing money. Where does each bank find someone who can lose $1 billion every month?”

He explained that "carry trade" would be a more accurate description of what they’re doing. Because of the Collapse of 2008 financial reforms, the big investment banks are able to borrow money from the U.S. government at 0 percent interest. Then they can turn around and buy short-term bonds that pay 2 or 3 percent annual interest. Now they’re making 2 percent on whatever they borrowed. They can use leverage to increase this number, by pledging some of the bonds that they’ve already bought as collateral on additional bonds.

I asked if they were taking any risk in order to earn this return. “If interest rates went up to 20 percent, even though the bonds are short-term, the price of the bond could fall enough to make the trade a money-loser.” (Though since the banks are too big to fail, they would simply be bailed out with additional taxpayer funds.)

What kind of bonds are they buying? Are they investing the money in American business? “No, they are mostly buying Treasuries.” So the money is just being shuffled from one Federal bank account to another, with each Wall Street bank skimming off $1 billion per month for itself? “Pretty much.”

Anyone who knows anything about economics would say the rising dollar is very good news. Wall Street will too, come Monday.

so the wall streeters made some more cash for themselves and now what, are we in for the second big fall. did they falsely drive up the stocks to make themselves richer. this is rediculous. no more bailouts. if they crumble, let them go.

WALL STREET is to BLAME for MOST of the worlds economy crisis, including (especially)over-priced gasoline, failing banks and most commodities.

Until "WALL STREET is WALLED up" and shut down; The economy will only get worse.

There's so much rambling about "details" of this and that and the majority or perhaps the entire world is too caught up with these useless details to see the basic FACT: Speculation drives prices up beyond repair. Shut down the Balloonists and get the world back on fair ground.

no jobs = that is the economy. Wall Street is a monopoly game, played by day traders! Look out for the NEXT down, after the government "band-aids" wear off.

Anyone who knows anything about economics would say the rising dollar is very good news. Wall Street will too, come Monday.

Someone who understands economics would look at the long-term trend. Yes, the dollar goes up; it also goes down. Gold goes up and down, too. But what is the long-term trend of the dollar since 2001? Down. Rallies will occur, and when looking at the short-term, the dollar can appear to be headed no where but up. Only a long-term view can put the dollar's trend in proper perspective. If you have a lot of dollars at the height of a rally, then good for you. However, I don't think we've seen anything yet when it comes to the lows the dollar will reach.

My thanks to ALL the frightened folks looking for excuses to sell their stocks. It's given me really great opportunities to buy into some very solid companies at low prices. I've just about recovered all the money I lost when everyone sold into cash. Please keep it up.

I see a lot of self fulfilling actions here. Everyone is scared the market will go down again, they look for a reason, find one, ignore any good news, sell like there is no tomorrow, give big profits to the people making the sales for them, drive the market down, and then complain that the market has gone down and use it as an excuse to say there is no recovery. And sell some more.

There are lots of very solid companies out there. Suffering because of reduced consumer spending, but solid non the less. And they'll come back. Buy them. You'll make money too.

What we need now is another "clunker" of a stimulus program. $24,000 per clunker. Such a deal for the beleagured US taxpayer! When do we get to trade in the clunker in the WH? Will we even make it through the next 3 years?

Stiglitz said it well when asked why we pay attention to and announce Wall Street "indexes" with the news....."I have no idea."

The stock market does not reflect the health of the economy, only the portfolios of the richest 2%.....period.

Stocks soared yesterday after Pelosi announced the health care reform bill. Today Wall Street and investors read the fine print!

Man! Talk about a thin bubble! It burst in less than 24 hours.

I am sure the GOP will dismiss this and continue to pray for another crash of the stock market and the downfall of the United States of America.

From WSWS website:

Speculative recovery sows seeds of an even greater economic crash

By Barry Grey

10 November 2009

Last Wednesday the Federal Reserve Board’s policy-making Federal Open Market Committee announced it was holding its target federal funds interest rate to the current level of zero to 0.25 percent. While that decision had been widely anticipated, there was much speculation that the Fed would employ language in its announcement to indicate that it would soon begin to raise interest rates.
In the event, the Fed repeated its recent mantra of keeping interest rates “exceptionally low” for “an extended period of time.” A change in the formula from “an extended period of time” to “for some time” would have been seen as a signal that the Fed was preparing to shift from its policy of near-zero rates.
The Fed’s signal of no early end to its extraordinarily cheap credit policy sent stock markets surging. Since the Fed announcement last Wednesday, the Dow Jones Industrial Average has surged hundreds of points, despite Friday’s dire Labor Department report of an official US jobless rate of 10.2 percent. On Monday, the Dow Jones Industrial Average gained 205 points, closing at a 13-month high of 10,227.
This most recent surge in stock prices continued a trend that has emerged in recent weeks: stocks moved in close and inverse relation to the value of the dollar on world currency markets. Last Wednesday, the dollar fell the most in relation to the euro in two months. That trend continued Monday, with the dollar once again falling to $1.50 versus the euro.
Also in keeping with recent trends, oil, gold and other commodities surged as stocks rose and the dollar fell. The connection between soaring asset prices and a falling dollar points to the extraordinarily speculative and unstable character of what is being called a global recovery from the financial crisis and recession of 2008 and early 2009.
It is a recovery in corporate and bank profits and financial assets that is richly benefitting the most powerful financial interests in the US and around the world, even as joblessness and poverty soar and basic production remains mired in the deepest slump since the Great Depression. It is a “recovery” that is driven almost entirely by a surge in speculation in risky assets fuelled by the US government’s policy of virtually free credit for the major banks and a vast buildup of debt.
As CNBC commentator Charles Gasparino put it in a November 6 column in the Wall Street Journal, “Interest rates are close to zero; in effect the Federal Reserve is subsidizing the risk-taking and bond trading that has allowed Goldman Sachs to produce billions in profits and that infamous $16 billion bonus pool (analysts say it could grow as high as $20 billion). The Treasury has lent banks money, guaranteed Wall Street’s debt and declared every firm to be a commercial bank… They are all ‘too big to fail’ and so free to trade as they please—on the taxpayer dime.”
The Wall Street Journal reported Monday that Morgan Stanley has concluded that the amount of cash circulating in the global economy is at its highest level by far since the firm began tracking it 30 years ago. This vast wave of hot money can find no profitable outlet in production, so it is being pumped into stock markets and speculation on commodity prices and currencies. The result of a colossal global asset bubble that must sooner or later burst.
Here are some indications of the scale of this bubble:
“Since its March 9 low, the Standard & Poor’s 500 stock index has gained more than 50 percent. An index of stocks for 22 “emerging market” countries (including Brazil, China and India) has doubled from its recent low. Oil, now around $80 a barrel, has increased 150 percent from its recent low of $31. Gold is near an all-time high, around $1,090 an ounce.” (Robert J. Samuelson in Monday’s Washington Post).
A central component of this policy is a tacit encouragement of the ongoing fall in the dollar. Ultimately, the decline in the dollar is dictated by the objective decline in the global position of American capitalism. The financial crash and ensuing global recession, which began in the US, have further eroded global confidence in the dollar as it has diminished the weight of US gross domestic product relative to global gross domestic product.
This is a profoundly destabilizing factor in the world economy, which renders any recovery fragile and ultimately unsustainable. Increasingly, the unique role of the US dollar as the world’s major reserve and trading currency is being called into question. This was highlighted last Tuesday when India’s central bank announced it had purchased 200 metric tons of gold on offer by the International Monetary Fund.
In making the announcement, India’s finance minister said that the US and European economies had “collapsed.” The Indian purchase came a few months after China, which holds an estimated $1.4 trillion in dollar assets, revealed that it had almost doubled its gold reserves in the past six years.
The buildup of gold reserves is part of a growing move by creditor nations away from the dollar. As BusinessWeek reported last month: “Instead of buying just dollars for their foreign exchange reserves, they’re diversifying into other currencies. The countries that reveal the composition of their reserve holdings put 63 percent of their new reserves into euros and yen in the second quarter, according to an analysis by Barclays Capital.”
The mid- to long-term implications of the erosion in the world position of the dollar are massive. A strong and stable dollar was the bedrock of the international capitalist monetary system that was established at the Bretton Woods conference at end of World War II. The dollar has served for nearly seven decades as the world’s supreme trading and reserve currency. The unique and privileged position of the dollar—which brought with it immense advantages for US capital—was based on the unchallenged economic supremacy of the US at the end of the war. That, in turn, was founded on the global dominance of American industry.
The long-term decline of American capitalism, reflected most importantly in the decay of its industrial base, resulted in the massive global imbalances between debtor nations—first and foremost, the US—and creditor nations, such as China, Japan and Germany, which led to the implosion of the world economy a year ago. It is the transformation of the US from the industrial powerhouse of the world to the center of global financial speculation and parasitism that, in the final analysis, underlies the erosion in the international position of the dollar.
This underscores the reckless character of US monetary policy. The United States is flirting with the disaster of a precipitous fall in the dollar, which has already declined 15 percent since its recent high last March against the currencies of Washington’s major trading counterparts. A full-blown dollar crisis would wreak havoc on the US and world economy.
It would compel the US to sharply and precipitously raise interest rates, plunging the US economy into a depression and bankrupting major financial institutions. It would choke off the US market for export-oriented countries such as China, Japan and Germany and spark competitive currency devaluations and trade war measures.
Nevertheless, to gain a short-term trading advantage against its capitalist rivals and provide the liquidity to enable major US banks to reap bumper profits and award their executives and traders record bonuses, the US, through the Fed, has carried out the electronic equivalent of printing a trillion dollars and flooding the financial markets with cheap credit. It has done so knowing that the dollar will continue to fall, making US exports cheaper and foreign imports more expensive.
The short-term effect is an intensification of global monetary and trade tensions. Last Friday the US levied duties against Chinese steel pipe imports. This followed Washington’s imposition two months ago of tariffs against Chinese tire imports. China responded Friday by denouncing “abusive protectionism” and pledging to retaliate against US autos and other exports to the Chinese market.
The provocative character of the US move on Friday is underscored by the fact that it precedes by less than a week President Barack Obama’s trip to Asia.
Meanwhile, New York University economist Nouriel Roubini is sounding the alarm over an alternate scenario for the dollar that would likewise have disastrous economic consequences. Roubini, who came to prominence by predicting in 2006 the impending collapse of the housing bubble and financial meltdown, is warning of a short-term rally in the dollar that will result in a collapse of the global asset bubble.
In a November 1 Financial Times column entitled “Mother of All Carry Trades Faces an Inevitable Bust,” Roubini writes: “Since March there has been a massive rally in all sorts of risky assets—equities, oil, energy and commodity prices… and an even bigger rally in emerging market asset classes (their stocks, bonds and currencies).”
He contends that at the heart of this rally is “the weakness of the US dollar, driven by the mother of all carry trades.” The latter term refers to the speculative practice of borrowing cash in currencies with low interest rates and investing the cash in assets denominated in more expensive currencies.
The US dollar has supplanted the yen as the major funding currency in carry trades. Speculators are borrowing dollars in highly leveraged trades, betting that the dollar will decline further, and using their resulting profits to invest in risky assets around the world. As a result, speculators are effectively borrowing dollars not at the zero interest rate set by the Fed, but at very negative rates—as low as minus 10 or 20 percent on an annualized basis.
As a result, Roubini states, carry trade investors have been realizing total returns in the 50-70 percent range since March.
As the “reckless” US policy is forcing other countries to keep their interest rates artificially low, “the carry trade bubble will get worse… the perfectly correlated bubble across all global asset classes gets bigger by the day.”
One day the bubble will burst, as economic factors or an external event—such as a military attack on Iran—lead the dollar to “reverse and suddenly appreciate.” Roubini concludes: “But the longer and bigger the carry trades and the larger the asset bubble, the bigger will be the ensuing asset bubble crash. The Fed and other policymakers seem unaware of the monster bubble they are creating. The longer they remain blind, the harder the markets will fall.”
Roubini is not alone. Last week, both the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank issued warnings of growing asset bubbles, fueled by hot money, in the Asian economies.
To the extent that the US and international bourgeoisie has a strategy to deal with the massive growth of debt that is funding the speculative “recovery,” it is to impose the full cost of the crisis on the working class. Last month, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) declared that spending on health, education and other social programs will have to be cut as countries deal with the high levels of debt incurred in the financial crisis and recession.
The OECD was seconded last week by the International Monetary Fund, which issued a statement calling for a decade of sweeping spending cuts and tax increases across the industrialized world. The IMF specifically urged a sharp reduction in the growth of spending for health care and pensions.
For its part, the Obama administration is committed to the same policy, pledging to reduce government and business costs for health care as a prelude to a regime of fiscal austerity. Its goal is to reduce the consumption of the working class, using mass unemployment to drive down wages, boost labor productivity, and turn the US into a cheap labor center for exports to the world market.

please read:

http://seekingalpha.com/article/172797-the-global-oil-scam-50-times-bigger-than-madoff?source=email

and request tax on every trade...so these thieves will pay their real share on their fictious fortune making machine...

Nobody is forcing a single state to take any money. They are more than welcome to take bunches or none or anywhere in between. The governors of those states will have to explain to their people why they won't take the federal funds. I think Schwarzeneggar got it right when he said if they don't want the cash, he'll be happy to take their share.

I think Schwarzeneggar got it right when he said if they don't want the cash, he'll be happy to take their share.

And that is the reason they WILL take it, regardless of how they feel. It won't matter if they don't. No money will be saved, it will just get spent with those that will take it. Not hipocracy, just common sense that it won't make any difference.

I have used powdered milk for more than 10 years and I earned $192,000.00 in 2008. Mix it with high protein meal replacement or protein powder. This adds another 20 grams of protein or so. And, it's less mess.

Well, for one thing, on Jan. 14, 2009, several of the corporate officers of Citigroup (C) were awarded several million shares of C.

Figure it out. DO the research.

Sorry GOP man, Amex took money because ... it was cheap money to take! Obama had nothing to do with TARP ... that was a Bush plan to bailout his rich buddies with no strings attached!

If you actually knew what you were talking about you'd know that Bush AND the Democrats passed TARP. Go see where Obama voted on it...or the rest of the Dems. Every single Democrat Senator voted for TARP.

Citi is still billions in the hole. The last 2 months they have operated in the green. This is good news. If a company stays in business this TARP money will have to be repaid, with interest! Its not free money. Citi, AMEX, BoA and all the rest will all have to pay this money back. Its all loans it was not a gift.

If someone is going let you borrow billions with you not having to put up any collateral, you would take it,invest it, and hopefully you make enough off of it to profit handsomely and pay it back.

BTW, these banks are only paying a 0.25 percent interest rate on these billions they are borrowing.

If the Fed triple A bond rating drops, then the problems will be magnified many times. The congress folks, that is where the power is; ; The leaders in congress are clueless to the real problems Americans are facing; they are insulated from the real world; we are in deep s...it.

DoOm AnD GlOoM GLOOM!!!!

Fault can be debated until doomsday while lending nothing to remedy our crisis.... Most I believe, agree government, corporarte America and greed are the main culprits. But few realize the real villain is the unethical structure of our political process, a process that is governed by money and the influence that money garners. There are 3,300 registered special interest lobbyist that overwhelm Gongress everyday handing out campaign donations in return for favors and votes, 3,300 voices that override the voices of constituents who elected members of Congress to be THEIR spoksperson and representative for THEIR particular community.... And no reasonable remedy will ever be found until " we the people" clean up this cesspool of corruption that envelopes our legislative process....YES WE CAN!!...State by state we can enact a constitutionally correct 'CONFLICT OF INTEREST' law prohibiting public elected officials, or candidates from accepting campaign contributions from any entity other than those one is, or will be empowered to represent in an official capacity. Attorneys are bound by such a code, and a representative is a representative whether it be in a state legislature, Congress or court of law.......IT IS AN ISSUE OF ETHICS, NOT IDEOLOGY. Think about it!

Hey, the President is handing out money. Amex just took advantage of it.

To these Republicans who voted for Bush twice. The country is so much better off under Obama then they were under Bush. And as the Article stated the stock market has been going up.

And as the Article stated the stock market has been going up.

Not any more.

Hey! I have an idea--let's spend some more money we don't have!

Funny thing is, it's the states money in the first place. It was the states citizens that paid in taxes all the money the feds have.

Why do we stand for them giving us our money back with conditions? There weren't any conditions when they took it from us.

We need to throw out all the incumbents next election.

Bail out as presented by the democrats will be a one day fling, and down she goes. Best thing is to start living frugal!

I don't know what any of this means.

I do know that I, for one, have to be even more frugal, "just in case."

I've always lived below my means, so I don't mind cutting back, really.

For those of us living off of ramen noodles, I recommend adding a can of carrots and a can of peas. That way, you can get a full day of food for under a buck!

I dislike peas. YUCK!

Then use beans instead.....

Beans in ramen noodles? Humm...will give it a try.

I also find that I can water down milk and a half-gallon will last a week!

I also find that I can water down milk and a half-gallon will last a week!

As watered down as milk is now days you might as well just fill an empty jug with water.

I remember my grand mother and my mother for that matter, would make a gallon of that cornation powdered milk and mis it with a quart of real milk. Talk about nasty, and that was when even skim milk had 4% milk fat. Hell now whole milk doesn't have that much.

Everytime Obama errors it is in the Dow. Had we had our own pick for president instead of the media pick of John McCain, taxes would of been cut and should of been 50% straight across the board with improvements nearly overnight. Democrats, angry Democrats need dependence upon them to stay in power so there will be no forthcoming solution and bailing out homeowners is a way to shore up tax revenue at your expense by penalty as they intend to penalize all those that work for a living and subsidise all those that do nothing. Example: those that do pay monthly and maintain their homes and now you will help those that fail to follow your dedication and hard work. Obama is a backwards president doom to failure and 3 years 11 months more nearly unbearable considering the damage he is capable of. The health care will put under penality obese people at higher rates because it is unfair to those that is healthy. I see regulations for poor dna and the government deciding who shall marry and produce children by dna guidelines. I see camera's installed in the workplace. What does the government know about cars, banking and running a company? What is it they do well, you want more of? All that money and a return for alot more money in acouple months to join that which has done nothing to improve a working mans position. Are you proud of the $13 a week, pin a piece of paper to your chest saying I won $13 like Obama won his election. I know several of you scratching your head knowing but refusing to admitt that you now know you have made a mistake. It is better to admitt the mistake and try to become somewhat more humble and wiser from it than to proceed in blind ignorance as the news media. I am here only to help and suggest that we need a answer to the broadcast and paper medias so that they again don't manage our president's nominee for the next election. We are headed the wrong direction as there is no future in communism. Socialism is communism.

I think, withmost of America pretty upset about the stimulus bills, everyone is just going to spend less money.

according to the poll last night, most of americans approve of stim package. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29358401/

Tim,

Your paranoia is a little overwhelming. I don't think we're where you would suggest we are.

Keep in mind that this is a crisis of capitalism, not socialism. The Obama Administration is doing everything possible to stabilize the banking system and the mortgage market. When that happens (and it will), the stock market will reflect it positively.

Islay:"You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift. You cannot lift the wage earner up by pulling the wage payer down. You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred. You cannot build character and courage by taking away people's initiative and independence. You cannot help people permanently by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves."

Abraham Lincoln
This is from his idol.

Well said and bravo !!! I would only hope that some people would come this far down in the post from 2/17, but you have said it better than anyone, If you don't mind I would like to write down your post, hang it on the wall at work, at school and in our community club house. I will make sure to add your name and the ending for Abraham Lincoln. Truly great,. Just for a moment, in response to other post, I know we're at the end but what needs saying will be said. The Person who wrote,"DOES ALL THIS SCARE YOU" I agree that the media uses every trick to cover the mistakes and tries to convince us that everything is wonderful," OWNED MEDIA" is the term that comes to mind, no more cartoon's in the paper, you could lose your job, no badmouthing the president except here for now.Most important is all of you who are cheering for the stock market to fail, HAVE YOU TALKED TO YOUR PARENTS LATELY, your inherititance is gone now, did you know that? And to all of you who still want to blame Bush for all your problem's, sound like kids saying they failed and it was their parents fault, and JUST HOW LONG DOES HE NEED TO BE IN OFFICE TO BE BLAMED FOR ANYTHING, now your sounding like your parents, My little Johnny did not do that, He never does anything like that , He's a good boy,....Give me a break....grow up and expect nothing less from your President....

As long as this is being looked at as a Democratic or Rebuplican problem we will never find any solution. This is an American problem and we need Americans to step up to the plate and find solutions. There are way to many Repubs and Demos who have nothing to add except to useless rhetoric that most of them keep spewing in order to advance their own political ambitions. The time for this is over, leave them to their own demise so the rest of us who truly care can find a solution that will help all of us. This is America, its time for us to act as Americans...

the answer king obama will have to fire timmy boy geitner the crook before the dow will climb. the longer that he takes before taking this action will only lengthen the down time for the dow there were too many crooks appointed by king obama into high offices and taxpayers do not like known crooks over the money......

Tim Lucas

Everytime Obama errors it is in the Dow. Had we had our own pick for president instead of the media pick of John McCain, taxes would of been cut and should of been 50% straight across the board with improvements nearly overnight. Democrats, angry Democrats need dependence upon them to stay in power so there will be no forthcoming solution and bailing out homeowners is a way to shore up tax revenue at your expense by penalty as they intend to penalize all those that work for a living and subsidise all those that do nothing. Example: those that do pay monthly and maintain their homes and now you will help those that fail to follow your dedication and hard work. Obama is a backwards president doom to failure and 3 years 11 months more nearly unbearable considering the damage he is capable of. The health care will put under penality obese people at higher rates because it is unfair to those that is healthy. I see regulations for poor dna and the government deciding who shall marry and produce children by dna guidelines. I see camera's installed in the workplace. What does the government know about cars, banking and running a company? What is it they do well, you want more of? All that money and a return for alot more money in acouple months to join that which has done nothing to improve a working mans position. Are you proud of the $13 a week, pin a piece of paper to your chest saying I won $13 like Obama won his election. I know several of you scratching your head knowing but refusing to admitt that you now know you have made a mistake. It is better to admitt the mistake and try to become somewhat more humble and wiser from it than to proceed in blind ignorance as the news media. I am here only to help and suggest that we need a answer to the broadcast and paper medias so that they again don't manage our president's nominee for the next election. We are headed the wrong direction as there is no future in communism. Socialism is communism.

Yes some are following the news media with blind ignorance. Those who watch Fox News and their endless load of propaganda. But if you were to read the article it states that the market is gaining strength.

I know you are to stupid to Remember but Bush gave big tax cuts to the rich and it didn't help the economy at all.

Pandering to the powers to be better known as the status quo will not improve our society. The status quo does not want innovation that may threaten there profits.

There is no trade agreement that "allows" jobs to be outsourced. There are business climates that encourage it. There are consumers that almost demand it. I tried to make my widget using Americans. Guess what, it became cost prohibitive because every consumer wants New York style at a Wal-Mart price. Now I have to decide, do I close the company, and people lose jobs, or outsource the manufacturing and keep some people at work.

The govt. does not create jobs. It can institute tax and labor policies that encourage businesses to create jobs, or individuals to start there own companies, creating more jobs. BTW, businesses do not pay taxes either, individuals do. If you do not get what I am saying, you do not understand business or job creation.

"The govt. does not create jobs. It can institute tax and labor policies that encourage businesses to create jobs, or individuals to start there own companies, creating more jobs. BTW, businesses do not pay taxes either, individuals do. If you do not get what I am saying, you do not understand business or job creation. "

So far all I see this administration doing is anti business and pro lawyer. So the only jobs created will be when the lawyers upgrade their Gulf Stream jets. This will mean more business will move off shore to escape the lawyers and the unions.

Change just not the change you wanted. Thanks BO

Government placed jobs are all over the place. Why doesn't anyone take a look at them? If you do, you will see they are contractual, which means they are over when the job is completed. Now. I would like a Democrat, or anyone that voted for Obama, to explain to me, how his stimulus package is going to help this economy. If you can convince me, I will join you in support. But convince me first.

dadoftim: The government doesn't create jobs? The government creates millions of jobs, directly through direct employment or through programs like the WPA during the last Republican sponsored (laissez-faire, anything-goes, boom and bust) depression, and indirectly through the myriad of RFPs it issues every month. And nobody starts a new company to reply to an RFP or after winning a contract; existing firms simply staff up. These are the quickest, most direct, most effective methods of creating jobs in the short term.

Skipster have you ever heard of Federal Prison?

Federal prisons are run by Federal employees. Federal Courts, same thing.

The FBI, yep, Federal employees again. BIA, same deal. FDA, yep. ATF, you got it.

The government creates a very, very large number of jobs, including those in the Bureau of Labor Statistics, where they track the numbers.

Job outsourcing is the exact root of this entire scenario. How can anyone with a brain think that sending your best jobs elsewhere can be good for the employment of American workers?

VAGal, I go to a gas station run and owned by Indians. They've all told me the call centers have either left already or are now leaving and people are out of work. And piglizard, in 2006, it became cheaper to ship goods within the continental US than to ship it over here from China and SE Asia, so those people are now out of work. Factories in China that were once thriving are now shuttered and the peope who worked there have no pay to buy food, even something as basic as rice. And I thought the Chinese government took better care of its people. My mistake.

Everyone seems to be posting federal jobs that are already taken. Now please give me how the government is going to create NEW jobs that last until retirement.

Libs should be happy now. The DOW has effectively "erased" all those "terrible" things the last administration did to the economy.

Good work, by the way. Glad to see that "The sky is falling" mentality worked out for you.

skipster,

You can't have it both ways. For example, the Department of Homeland Security (under Bush obviously) created thousands of permanent jobs but it also grew the size of the federal government. You can't have a smaller government and increase the number of permanent employees.

What's the solution here?

The goverment should not be the main source of employment and money in any economy it allows the politicians incredible amount of power to do what they may without the approval of the people. Why can the liberals admit that Obama is making a mistake? He is human the problem with this mistake is that is of such proportions that the effects will be hard to reverse and reverse we will.

t-544433

While it is true that trade agreements do not give jobs away, it is true that American companies are allowed to hire aliens on the HB-1 program. The person comes to the USA and has a visa to work.

His/her employment takes a job away from an American citizen. For instance Microsoft laid off 5,000 American citizens while employing the total number of HB-1 workers, an they are now trying to get an agreement from te government to hire 17,000 more HB-1 employees. If they succeed, there go 17,000 more jobs American citizens could fill.

Also, they are certainly not the only company doing this.

Correction:

For instance Microsoft laid off 5,000 American citizens while employing the total number of HB-1 workers allowed by law, and they are now trying to get an agreement from te government to hire 17,000 more HB-1 employees. If they succeed, there go 17,000 more jobs American citizens could fill.

Out-sourcing? You know two reasons that happens? One is cheap labor, i.e., Americans can't compete for those jobs. The other is that whole companies move operations to countries with more friendly tax policies. This government, like many administrations in the past, want to kill the golden goose of business with the axe of taxes to get a slight immediate gain at the cost of long-term stability. Well, it's working.................

Have you ever thought why do we need more roads? Electric cars will just barely get you to work and back. NO CROSS COUNTRY ROADS MEEDED!

"we are a debtor nation TRILLIONS in debt"

please do not forget that Clinton left a balanced budget. It was Bushnomics that put us back in debt

I betcha the whole world is laughing at the USA's mess!

And thank a greedy rich person for robbing us blind! And thank the neocons for cutting their taxes and deregulating to allow them their orgy of greed!

Actually Ms Barbara when medicare, medicaid, social security liabilities and such are added in, we have never, ever had a balanced budget. Your federal income taxes just pay interest on the national debt, not on the principal. We are actually 57 trillion in the hole.

So many posts and so much ignorance.

Balanced budget happened ONLY because the Republicans took over Congress in 1994. Later, around 2003, the Repubs started acting like Democrats and they started spending like a drunken sailor.

The stock market climbed tremendously during the Bush administration, with the Dow reaching about 14,000 mid 2007. It then started downhill to about 12,000 in mid 2008 taking a real nosedive in the 3rd-4th quarter of 2008. Of course, now we are about half of where we were a year ago.

Do you think that the election of the Dems taking over Congress in 2007 and having the clear lead in the presidential elections mid-to-late 2008 is only coincidental to this huge downturn? No - it is extremely relevant.

In addition, the runup to the elections were total doom-and-gloom from the Dems, which always becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Thanks to the spendaholic liberals that basically want to kill business in the name of government, all of our retirement funds, investments, etc have tanked. Business does not like what they see and it shows.

This is exactly the kind of partisan nonsense we need to avoid.

It is as much the Republican's fault as it is the Democrat's and at this point we need to focus on the answers and get behind our President and forget about this blame - game. Face it, it does not fix things and it does not really make you feel any better.

Get educated about what is happening and why, and what we can do about it. Start by reading this article called "What Cooked The World's Economy" by James Lieber. You will have a better grip on where we need to go.

Some of these posts are glooming and dooming things, but it does not have to turn out that way. We can recover if we rise to the occasion but we can't do that if we are stuck in how it is all one party's fault and we don't understand what is happening and why.

Justathought,

You should also take a look at Bad Money by Kevin Phillips for an excellent explanation of what's going on from a capitalist's perspective.

Just something all you free thinkers, market haters, amateur economist should keep in mind.

"You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift. You cannot lift the wage earner up by pulling the wage payer down. You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred. You cannot build character and courage by taking away people's initiative and independence. You cannot help people permanently by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves."

Abraham Lincoln

Ivonne,

first of all, Politicians are known for a very limited understanding of economics at the best of times. Secondly, Lincoln said this in the 1860's, using Victorian principles. Finally, there is no theorectical support for any of these statements - he is merely suggesting the status quo is better than revolution.

The main question is how does Lincoln know any of these things to be true. Does allowing the rich to exploit the poor benefit the poor? Does allowing the strong to take advantage of the weak provide them with strength? Does helping people in need remove their desire to help themselves? their initiative? Independance? Does the existing class structure actually benefit all classes or just the top class - if so is it wrong to demand a bigger share?

Most of what we do as a society is based on convention. How can one man own "land" - did he create it? Was it given to him by God? Did he just take it and claim it was his? Politicians are necessarily driven by convention and changes at the margin. Thats why we have had virtually the same elitist social and economic pyramid structure since the Pharoahs. How does another system work? We really couldn't tell you, because for thousands of years we've only really tried the same old version of aristocratic dictatorship.

I know there will be right wing people who scream about the commies, but the biggest irony is that our chief complaint about communism is that its too much like our own crappy system - a social and economic system based on a small elite group, generally dynastic, who control virtually all aspect of soceity for their own benefit - the main differance between us and Cuba is our level of technology and natural resources - not the political system!

Obama will be cutting down all those trees to make paper money. Remember Germany in early 1900's when it took a wheel barrel full of paper to buy a loaf of bread!

WE need a leader like Stalin who would execute the rich and theyre entire families.that how you solve this problem.

Right on!

So far I've only heard of one Wall Sreet crook killing himself. I guess that its hard to get the windows open in modern skyscrapers! But hey! There are other ways!

Arthur, you are on the money. Any while we are at it, we should also prosecute the members of Congress and govt. who also had something to do with this. Negligence.

We need some banks-but certainly not all of them. I'm all for letting some fail.

Too many pensions and retirement accounts have stock shares. The values of the stock have fallen but they're not worthless so Wall St is worth saving. Doesn't mean we have to give Wall St money without lots of strings attached. Execs should have their stock options held to the end of their employment or 5 yrs, which ever comes first. Keeps them from either cashing out on a problem they created or keeping the stock and having control of company through shareholder votes-lessening chance of oversight of executive decisions.

There is a really good non-partisan article on what is going on that supports part of your proposal. I think there should be some failures, but we need to be very smart about targeting them or they will drag us all down with them. Enter James Lieber and What Cooked the World's Economy in a search engine and read through. He has defined the targets for your proposal very well.

If you are on the Titanic you don't want to root for the ship to sink unless you know you have the lifeboats you need.

Rates LOW! If you haven't heard the FED rates are ZERO. HA, they can't give that soon to be worthless dollar away!

It is pretty obvious to me that alot of you really don't understand how and why the stock market works. I give my stockbroker money to invest in a good company, so that I may share in the profits that it may make. I know and knew fair well that it was somewhat of a gamble because the people who buy the products that my chosen company produces have the choice of buying the product, or the management may not be competent, or the world market may turn sour. Fair enough, but what the problem with Wall street is, is the fact that no one was keeping track of the unscrupulous brokers who took our money and pretended to make good investments for us, when in reality, like " Mr. Maddoffwithit" they were building up huge piles of money for themselves and bedamned with us ordinary investors. It is not Mr. Obama's fault, but he will of course be hung with this problem as well as a lot of other problems. The market will not rebound for a long time, because we the investors have lost all confidence in brokers and companies.

Momma Gail,

I think you're right about the fundamentals of investing in the equities market for the average person. There is risk associated with any investment.

The only thing(s) you didn't mention are the fixed-income investments that were corrupt. For example, when bond ratings agencies such as Moody's, Standard & Poor's, Fitch, etc. took a mortgage-backed CDO that would ordinarily have had a low BBB rating (or perhaps even lower, depending on the underlying numbers) and gave it a AAA rating, that's corruption. Their justification for the fraudulent ratings was because "the banks are demanding good ratings and if we didn't do it, one of our competitors would have".

The reason it makes a difference is because the fictitious ratings have affected people's confidence in the integrity of Wall Street. An unsuspecting municipality (which can only invest in AAA bonds) bought into these articles as though they were getting something very stable and very secure. They didn't get either. They got duped by greedy Wall Street executives that should now be held accountable.

The United States is as broke as it's Banks. The government is buying treasuries because no other country wants them and they see the writing on the wall. My only question is when will they be honest with the American people and let them know we are in a Depression? They can't live this lie forever!

I can tell you why at my bank. We are one of the more solid ones, but we took TARP money because we knew we would need to increase our footprint to keep up.. which means we bought other banks for cheap.. Yesterday we all took a 5% pay cut, and the shareholders value went up.. nice, huh? Unearned income is clearly much more important to corporate America than earned income for their own employees.

Yup. Corporations stopped caring about the American worker when it became easily possible for the work to be done overseas. Bottom line and profit margin is their only concern. Worse, the execs have gotten big bonuses for sending jobs overseas. How Anti-American can you get! Wall St managed to do what Osama bin Laden couldn't do-near collapse of the country.

Just like bin Laden said, "all we have to do is destroy their economy"! And it beginning to look like we've let them succeed!! So sad that there are so many American's who are so greedy!! May God help us!

cjn, I think you might be on the right track.

We were told, after 9/11 to spend spend spend, we've been told that we need to buy houses, etc. And we did! And, please, I'm not saying Bush is the one who is to blame. Even Bush ccouldn't make someone buy a house they couldn't afford!

cjn, and yes, you're right about the greed part. That is/was the problem. (Im hoping for "was", but it looks like Obama wants to prop up housing prices, so "is" might still be the operative word."

Would you be willing to lend huge sums of money at near ZERO return, and with scant fope of getting your principle back? Foreign governments are not stupid.

What do you think happens when it is difficult to get a loan anywhere?

Interest rates will skyrocket so we will have huge inflation, greater unemployment, no retirement, and socialism running rampant.

If the government had done nothing, we would be coming out of this recession about, oh....NOW.

Doctor Larry,

I think your conclusion is wrong. Ask Hank Paulson and Ben Bernanke about it. Both of these gentlemen are rock solid capitalists with much greater financial credentials than most of us will ever attain. And in Hank Paulson's case, the idea of a bailout was abhorrent to him.

However, there comes a time with any economy when you have to face reality. No responsible government can allow its major financial institutions to fail, notwithstanding the fact that they got themselves into this mess in the first place. It became clear to both of these men that the toxic assets had to be cleansed and that government was the only player with enough borrowing power to do it.

Had Paulson and Bernanke allowed the banks and investment houses to topple in October, where would we be now? My money is on a depression, certainly not a recovery.

your not calling this a recovery, are you? I think I read it at the end of your post. If you really beleive we are in a recovery, I have a bridge!!! The rest of your post was very enlightening, I never heard that before or if I did, I missed it,,thank you for the info

Energy right now is the safest.

It is indeed just made a very good buy. Now looking for something long term possibly wind.

Phil-778204 --

You have the stink of denial wafting about you. Obama is not a "messiah" but someone who inherited a vertible nightmare incited by eight years of Bush & Companys failed ideologies. Do you think the President deserves the stench of ordure drifting from your venomous mouth, especially when we need something done to turn this country around and soon? The borrow-and-spend philosophy of Republican economics is founded on "magical thinking" and the rejection of social programs, and both these stances offer no solution in these desperate and dire times. The current President needs our support and our help if we are going to pull ourselves away from the brink of disastor. Rather then bemoaning Obama as a "messiah" why don't you get off your pity-pot, call him the "President" and see if there's anything you can do to help him help this country? I may be being laid off this Friday, but I will do everything I can to help my President and fellow Americans.

Phil, I'm not so sure that money in the mattress will be good when the govt. is printing money now that isn't of much value.

Craig, I think Phil's Media/Messiah comment is rather true. It was foolish for the voters to think that either candidate was going to fix this mess. Obama saying he is going to fix it is the height of arrogance. Pretty words. Can't fix 20+ years of problems in 30 days, let alone 4 years!

Craig, the fundamental reason that the president and his comrades are receiving little, to no support (except from Harry & Nancy) from the populace is because he (they) simply do not have a plan with a solid foundation. Very few folks do not know what to do next because the wind will change direction again tomorrow. The simplified version of their plan is like throwing spaghetti up against the wall and seeing if any of it sticks. These folks are the most highly educated, intelligent people on earth... Heaven help us.

AMEN!

I don't believe logic, common sense or thoughts for your fellow man and country has much appeal for the greedy, good thought though

What is dementure? Dementia perhaps?

HeaveTo, Ashamed is probably right (even though he does tend to rant to the extreme)

The depression we're currently in will be an extremely long one, and we will see the weird combination of massive unemployment and hyperinflation. (Check out Zimbabwe) The amount of cash pumped out over just the last few months is roughly 3 times our total currency in circulation last year. Having that cash primarily dumped into the banks only multiplied it by ten.

Within a few years we will be seeing a whole hell of a lot of really pissed-off, homeless, hungry, jobless, desperate people wandering through the neighborhoods, the ones that are still standing, that is.

Try to imagine working for a weekly wage at $10 per hour. At the end of the week you get $400 less Fed taxes, health, State Taxes, State Mandated, Social Security, and possible County, City and Block taxes. So you net, say, $300.

The week before you could buy a months worth of groceries with that pay. But this week, due to hyperinflation, you can only buy two weeks worth of groceries. So you get a raise for "cost of living" and suddenly you are making $800, leaving you with $595 (after progressive taxes) but that will still only buy two weeks of groceries.

(Of course, getting that wage doubled presumes your employer was also able to roughly double the price on all goods to all customers for all sales, past and present, all at the same time.)

How long do you think you can afford to even GO to work? How long do you have before you ARE one of those really pissed-off, homeless, hungry, jobless, desperate people wandering through the neighborhoods?

Absolutely everything our wonderful government has done so far is going to lead to this. The only thing they haven't done is to mandate "Buy American" and put huge tariff's on imports. They've tried, but haven't done that yet. But when they do, that will be the death knell.

We don't have the manufacturing capability we had during the late Great Depression. Our manufacturing centers have been scrapped or are in absolute disrepair. Our laws practically prohibit manufacturing...good luck getting a new steel mill or foundary built and running. That means that when they throw tariff's onto everything costs will rise tremendously because we'll absolutely HAVE to buy from foreign sources.

We were screwed from the very first bail-out early last year...the "slippery slope" you've heard about is where we are...moving faster and faster downwards.

Excuse me, but during the war we had sewing machine factories and roper stoves etc. We did not have ammo factories up and ready. Yet somehow the citizens of this great nation managed to not only ship the men off to war, but retool our factories and teach women to work in them... I think we could do that again.. most factoies are still standing they are just empty. We the people can do it, we the people are the government.. we can do little with Tax cuts that help few.. we need jobs. The death kneel was shippiing our jobs over seas, appears China is doing better than us in buying cars.. I would say manufacturing helped her a great deal.

Exactly, Sharon. In others words, this country and all of its parts must return decent work to American workers. The world is not ready for American companies to provide for the employment needs of the entire planet.

piglizard
The world is not ready for American companies to provide for the employment needs of the entire planet.
Unfortunately, not true. the world iS ready for us to provide for it; but where does that leave us?? Outsourcing was and will continue to be the downfall of American jobs in all fields; and with the influx of illegals also taking over from the bottom end, their is nothing left. Unless someone comes up with a miracle, look for depression 'cause here it comes! There are just too many houses in forclosure, too many jobs being lost every day besides too many already on unemployment and too many illegals taking jobs every single day!!

As long as we have Americans that are me-first, expect the government to supply their every want cradle-to-grave, and turn up their nose at honest labor for a decent (not-exorbitant) wage, jobs will continue to go to countries that will do those things.

For example, the UAW at first helped auto workers, and then their greed killed the Big Three. PERIOD. This example is multiplied all over the country.

I do that every time!!!! Spread the word

Good idea, but are you willing to pay higher fees and interest rates to do that? Most people look only for the cheapest solution and that is what we get.

Panasonic shuts down 27 plants. Some of the future work will shift back to the silicon valley. And the same people who complain about outsourcing complain about this turn of events. Idiots.

It's a news article that simply states the DOW is up 300 points and housing starts are up. I don't know how you surmised that this is 'Obama Journalism' unless you're implying that any good news is 'Obama Journalism' in which case I would have to agree with you.

No need for gold or silver. Don't you know money is created! Don't you know debt is what creates money in this day and age?

There is unlimited money that will be created. Everyday money is created. Take a loan out and voila, money sprouts. So what's all the problem? It's like a chess game where you bring pieces back into the game after they are lost/taken.

Trouble is the citizen can't perform that trick that the Federal Reserve and Government can.

I'll have what he's smoking......LOL

AfricanMadman - they say that some of that stuff can, indeed, make one prescient.

... And the highest hyper-inflation since the '30's. ... And the creation of a Socialist USA. ... And the transfer of of our entire national wealth for generations to come to the rest of the world (none of which are really our friends in the first place). And the institution of the security of mediocrity by beauracracy as the new national standard. Think of everything that IS NOT American and that's what we're going to get out of this spending binge. This is the most astonishingly stupid concept proposed by the most preposterously self centered, virtually traitorous politicians I've witnessed in my liftime.

Obama is doing a fine job considering what he was left with. I'm pleased that he is putting money into our crumbling infrastructure instead of some cronie defense contractor's Swiss bank account. This nation is remarkably resilient, it won't take long to get our budget matters in order.

texas sun. u think for a minute that he actually gas about you, your sadly mistaken. all of them are crooks, get a grip

yo big texas---can i have some of what you're smoking??? he's doing a fine job??? of what, breaking america? obama just said yesterday that unemployment will continue to go up for'several months' and he's throwing money at our troubles with no success...then again he's throwing money down all the wrong ratholes

The US government is on a spending spree? You realized this only when Obama became President and had to demand some emergency spending to keep our infrastructure and economy from completely tanking?

Do you realize Bush took a budget surplus, turned it into a running deficit that exceeds a trillion dollars and has escalated our national debt? Do you realize Clinton had actually balanced the budget and we were actually reducing the debt? This came after years of escalating deficits and debts that Reagan asked for and signed after them Dems had chopped them down from what he wanted.

Do you understand how Reagan's pie in the sky miscalculations of how the economy would grow coupled with outrageous spending got us into this mess?

Tax revenues - spending = ????. Only Clinton was able to make this a positive number.

It was a republican congress that ballanced the budget.

Riight! What planet are you from?